There are 14 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. Re: OT: Ya xochu uchit' russki
From: Sai Emrys
1b. Re: OT: Ya xochu uchit' russki
From: Isaac Penzev
2a. HEADS UP, with a special nod to the list-admin
From: kaleissin
2b. Re: HEADS UP, with a special nod to the list-admin
From: Henrik Theiling
2c. Re: HEADS UP, with a special nod to the list-admin
From: Philip Newton
3. TECH: Bounces and SpamCop
From: Henrik Theiling
4. Re: 'Nor' in the World's Languages
From: Yahya Abdal-Aziz
5a. Another English History Question (YAEHQ?)
From: Mark J. Reed
5b. Re: Another English History Question (YAEHQ?)
From: Elliott Lash
5c. Re: Another English History Question (YAEHQ?)
From: Gary Shannon
5d. Re: Another English History Question (YAEHQ?)
From: Mark J. Reed
6a. Re: FW: 'Nor' in the World's Languages
From: H. S. Teoh
6b. Re: FW: 'Nor' in the World's Languages
From: Henrik Theiling
6c. Re: FW: 'Nor' in the World's Languages
From: H. S. Teoh
Messages
________________________________________________________________________
1a. Re: OT: Ya xochu uchit' russki
Posted by: "Sai Emrys" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun Aug 6, 2006 11:39 pm (PDT)
You probably don't want my help at least...
My parents are both native Russian, but I was born and raised in
upstate NY. My accent is very definitely American... with Moscow-area
vowels (o->a).
Plus my grammar sucks 'cause I'm only semiliterate. :-(
- Sai
On 8/6/06, H. S. Teoh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi, conlangy folks.
>
> I've been away for a long time, and I haven't done very much conlanging.
> But I do know that there are a lot of linguistically-inclined people
> here, so I thought I'd ask for some help.
>
> I've recently started to learn Russian, but due to the lack of native
> speakers around me, I've a hard time with pronunciation. Is there anyone
> who's interested to help me with pronunciation (off-list, of course) by
> transcribing Russian words into IPA, perhaps together with some
> explanation of the phonotactics going on behind the scenes? (Y'know, the
> stuff they don't explain adequately in textbooks. I did invest in a
> Russian-English dictionary and a beginner/intermediate book on Russian,
> but neither use IPA nor get into, e.g., how consonant clusters simplify,
> etc.. The dictionary does indicate stress, which helps a lot, but I
> have a lot of trouble with consonant clusters.)
>
> Bolshoye spasibo!
>
>
> T
>
> --
> Which is worse: ignorance or apathy? Who knows? Who cares? -- Erich Schubert
>
Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
1b. Re: OT: Ya xochu uchit' russki
Posted by: "Isaac Penzev" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Mon Aug 7, 2006 7:07 am (PDT)
If you can wait till August 27 or 28, when I come back from my business
trip and nomail status, I think I'll be able to help you.
-- Yitzik, a Russian native speaker
Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
2a. HEADS UP, with a special nod to the list-admin
Posted by: "kaleissin" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Mon Aug 7, 2006 2:33 am (PDT)
My preferred mail-address have once again been kicked off this list by
the listserv-software thanks to my ISP using spamcop to filter spam.
Somebody have, once again, reported [EMAIL PROTECTED] to spamcop, and
while it only takes hours for listserv to be removed from spamcop,
this is long enough for all messages from the list to bounce and for
listserv to consider my preferred mail-address as bad.
I'll be looking into what I can do to change my ISP but let this serve
as a warning to all of you: if you suddenly don't receive mail from
the list anymore, or get a message that says you have been
unsubscribed from the list because of too many undelivered mails,
spamcop-use by your own ISP might be to blame.
So to our list-admin, is there anything you can do to make listserv
try again in, say, twelve hours (that seems to be how long it takes to
get off the spamcop-list), when a spamcop-bounce is received?
t., who is rather annoyed at the moment...
Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
2b. Re: HEADS UP, with a special nod to the list-admin
Posted by: "Henrik Theiling" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Mon Aug 7, 2006 3:13 am (PDT)
Hi!
kaleissin writes:
> My preferred mail-address have once again been kicked off this list by
> the listserv-software thanks to my ISP using spamcop to filter spam.
>...
Akh, again! :-(
>...
> So to our list-admin, is there anything you can do to make listserv
> try again in, say, twelve hours (that seems to be how long it takes to
> get off the spamcop-list), when a spamcop-bounce is received?
>...
The admins of the respective lists cannot influence the server
behaviour, but only change list-related options. Bounce timeouts
etc. is beyond what I can configure.
In fact, one of the relays between me and listserv was once classified
as a spammer, resulting in myself not receiving posts anymore. At
that time, many people had problems with that. I then filled in a
form to remove that relay again, and I think the server admins at
Brown did so, too, but I'm affraid there is nothing I can do to solve
the general problem.
However, I will check the error logs for whether other accounts had
similar problems.
**Henrik
Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
2c. Re: HEADS UP, with a special nod to the list-admin
Posted by: "Philip Newton" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Mon Aug 7, 2006 4:53 am (PDT)
On 8/7/06, kaleissin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> My preferred mail-address have once again been kicked off this list by
> the listserv-software thanks to my ISP using spamcop to filter spam.
[snip]
> t., who is rather annoyed at the moment...
How about writing to your ISP and expressing your annoyance? Even
SpamCop says (http://www.spamcop.net/bl.shtml) that "It is not
possible for any blocking tool to avoid blocking wanted mail entirely.
Given the power of the SCBL, SpamCop encourages use of the SCBL in
concert with an actively maintained whitelist of wanted email senders.
SpamCop encourages SCBL users to tag and divert email, rather than
block it outright." and that "The SCBL is aggressive and often errs on
the side of blocking mail. When implementing the SCBL, provide users
with the information about how the SCBL and your mail system filter
their email. Ideally, they should have a choice of filtering options.
Many mailservers operate with blacklists in a "tag only" mode, which
is preferable in many situations." -- so if they're using the SCBL to
bounce email, they're not following best practices.
Cheers,
--
Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
3. TECH: Bounces and SpamCop
Posted by: "Henrik Theiling" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Mon Aug 7, 2006 5:12 am (PDT)
Hi!
I switched the auto-removal delay for the Conlang list from one day to
one week, so that a SpamCop listing might not immediately lead to
automatic deletion of several of our subscribers.
Bye,
Henrik
Messages in this topic (1)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
4. Re: 'Nor' in the World's Languages
Posted by: "Yahya Abdal-Aziz" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Mon Aug 7, 2006 10:21 am (PDT)
I asked:
> In your conlangs, what kinds of logical connectives have you implemented?
-------
Dana Nutter replied:
>
> In SASXSEK:
[snip]
> Gloss
> -----
> ka = and
> pa = or (exclusive)
> kapa = or (ka+pa, inclusive)
> wa = if
> fa = then; therefore
> na = but
> ni = not (adv.)
> -in = in-; un-; not ~
>
> Also note that -A words are conjunctions. Most have related
> prepositions with somewhat related meanings (ending with -U).
>
> ku = with
> pu = against
> nu = without
> fu = toward
Thanks, Dana, that seems a remarkably thorough set of conjunctions!
------------------
Antonielly Garcia Rodrigues replied:
>
> In Portuguese:
>
> inclusive or = ou
[snip]
> exclusive or (either... or) = ou... ou
[snip]
> neither... nor = nem... [e] nem (if a noun follows) / não... [e] nem
> (if a verb follows).
[snip]
> and = e
[snip]
> either = qualquer um
[snip]
> not only... but also = não só... mas também
[snip]
> one who = quem
[snip]
> at least (followed by a number, usually "one") = ao menos
[snip]
> The construction equivalent to "neither... nor" in Malay, which you
> sent to the list and corresponds to "not... also not" and "not... also
> not again/likewise/furthermore" is very interesting. Thank you for
> sharing.
> There is probably a myriad of cases which I did not cover, because
> real world scenarios can be quite complex. Anyway, I hope my
> simplified demonstration of how some constructions work in Portuguese
> and in English will foster your thinking process.
Thank you, Antonielly; your detailed explanations have also highlighted
(highlit?) for me some of the real-world constraints on conjunctions, as
opposed to the purely logical.
------------
I've also received some replies offlist. Still interested to hear what
others have done.
Regards,
Yahya
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.7/410 - Release Date: 5/8/06
Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
5a. Another English History Question (YAEHQ?)
Posted by: "Mark J. Reed" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Mon Aug 7, 2006 1:32 pm (PDT)
In modern English, you can induce a current or induct a member; either act
is an example of induction. (If you induce a reaction, though, that's
generally an inducement instead.) Similarly, you can deduce a fact or
deduct an expense, and either way you have a deduction.
Synchronically, these appear to be cases of derivational morphology
triggering collisions in the forms of otherwise distinct words. But what is
the diachronic situation? Did these pairs originate as the same word and
then diverge along semantic grounds? Or perhaps the two were borrowed at
different times and/or from different languages with cognate forms? (Say,
oh, I dunno, just to pick a pair at random, Latin and French)?
Or did we get similar results from different paths? Based on the etymology
in M-W, the bilingual answer is correct in the case of "induce/"induct":
both ultimately derive from Latin "inducere", but the former entered English
only after becoming French "inducer", while the latter came directly from
the Latin past participle "inductus". But apparently "deduce" and "deduct"
both came directly from Latin, one from the infinitive and the other from
the participle, with no French involvement.. So were both meanings valid
glosses of the Latin as well?
--
Mark J. Reed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
5b. Re: Another English History Question (YAEHQ?)
Posted by: "Elliott Lash" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Mon Aug 7, 2006 2:38 pm (PDT)
I can't comment on the diachronic situation, but I do
know that the French reflex of Latin inducere would
have been *enduire...like Latin conducere > conduire
Another possibility would have been *enduisir, like
the contrast between Old French plaire and plaisir
both from < placere. It seems weird that Merriam
Webster would say that the French was inducer, but
maybe Anglo-Norman is somewhat different.
-elliott
--- "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> In modern English, you can induce a current or
> induct a member; either act
> is an example of induction. (If you induce a
> reaction, though, that's
> generally an inducement instead.) Similarly, you
> can deduce a fact or
> deduct an expense, and either way you have a
> deduction.
>
> Synchronically, these appear to be cases of
> derivational morphology
> triggering collisions in the forms of otherwise
> distinct words. But what is
> the diachronic situation? Did these pairs originate
> as the same word and
> then diverge along semantic grounds? Or perhaps the
> two were borrowed at
> different times and/or from different languages with
> cognate forms? (Say,
> oh, I dunno, just to pick a pair at random, Latin
> and French)?
>
> Or did we get similar results from different paths?
> Based on the etymology
> in M-W, the bilingual answer is correct in the case
> of "induce/"induct":
> both ultimately derive from Latin "inducere", but
> the former entered English
> only after becoming French "inducer", while the
> latter came directly from
> the Latin past participle "inductus". But
> apparently "deduce" and "deduct"
> both came directly from Latin, one from the
> infinitive and the other from
> the participle, with no French involvement.. So
> were both meanings valid
> glosses of the Latin as well?
>
> --
> Mark J. Reed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
5c. Re: Another English History Question (YAEHQ?)
Posted by: "Gary Shannon" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Mon Aug 7, 2006 5:26 pm (PDT)
You can disolve a substance in water or you can solve a problem. Either way you
have solution.
--gary
--- "Mark J. Reed" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> In modern English, you can induce a current or induct a member; either act
> is an example of induction. (If you induce a reaction, though, that's
> generally an inducement instead.) Similarly, you can deduce a fact or
> deduct an expense, and either way you have a deduction.
>
<snip>
Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
5d. Re: Another English History Question (YAEHQ?)
Posted by: "Mark J. Reed" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Mon Aug 7, 2006 8:35 pm (PDT)
On 8/7/06, Gary Shannon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> You can disolve a substance in water or you can solve a problem. Either
> way you
> have solution.
Two 's's in "dissolve", which I point out not to be pedantic about spelling
but to call attention to its etymology as "dis-" + "solve". It's a case of
a verb and its morphological opposite yielding the same result. Perhaps the
components of a problem solution should be dubbed "dissolutes" and the tools
used to arrive at such solutions "dissolvents", just to complete the
parallel. :)
--
Mark J. Reed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
6a. Re: FW: 'Nor' in the World's Languages
Posted by: "H. S. Teoh" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Mon Aug 7, 2006 4:43 pm (PDT)
On Sun, Aug 06, 2006 at 04:36:50PM +1000, Yahya Abdal-Aziz wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I'm forwarding a (rather long) reply I recently made to Maarten van
> Wijk about a question he raised on the Linguist list. My main
> question to you all is:
>
> In your conlangs, what kinds of logical connectives have you implemented?
> Examples would be:
> 1. A and B - AND
In Tatari Faran: A B ei.
Example:
kiran sa diru si'ei.
young.man CVY.M girl CVY.F:and
The young man and the girl.
> 2. A or B or both (A and B) - the "inclusive or", OR
None (yet). I'm not sure if the san faran even make this
inclusive/exclusive distinction.[1] Inclusive-or is something not many
natlangs grasp intuitively, and TF doesn't either.
[1] Side-note: it's interesting, though, that TF does distinguish
between inclusive/exclusive plural 1st person pronouns (_faan_ vs.
_mana_). This is a different kind of exclusion/inclusion, of course.
> 3. A or B but not both (A and B) - the "exclusive or", XOR
A B ibe.
Example:
fasa tikis so buneis sei ibe.
meat rabbit.PART CVY.N giant.mushroom CVY.F otherwise
Rabbit meat, otherwise giant mushroom.
> 4. If A, then B - "A implies B"
The subjunctive modifier _era_ is used for the antecedent, imperative
word order is used, and the verb complement is overtly omitted. The
complement appears in the consequent, which is in indicative word order.
Example:
tapa era tse sa buara na, tse na hamra sinasu kei aram.
walk SBJV you CVY.M volcano RCP.M you RCP.M see lava ORG.F COMPL
If you go (walk) to the volcano, you will see lava.
> 5. A only if B - "A is implied by B"
Same as the above: you just reverse the order of the clauses. There is
no separate construction that emphasizes the passivity of the English
equivalent.
Example:
tsa na hamra sinasu kei aram, tapa era tse sa buara na.
You will see lava, if you go to the volcano.
> 6. A if and only if B - "A and B imply each other", "A and B are
> equivalent"
No direct equivalent. Often, as in many natlangs, either of the previous
two cases may be interpreted as equivalence.
> 7. not A - ie the statement A is not true - cf Malay "tidak" for
> logical negation, below
The negative particles _be_ and the negative complement prefix _bei-_
are used, in various combinations, to express different degrees of
negativity. If _bei-_ is not used, the complement is omitted from the
clause.
Examples:
huu na hamra be sinasu kei.
I RCP.M see not lava ORG.F (complement omitted)
I don't see lava. (I didn't see any lava.)
huu na hamra sinasu kei bei'aram.
I RCP.M see lava ORG.F not:COMPL
I don't see lava. (I can't see any lava.)
huu na hamra be sinasu kei bei'aram.
I RCP.M see not lava ORG.F not:COMPL
I don't see any lava at all! (I can't see no lava anywhere!)
> 8. M is not a N - ie the thing M is not one of the things N - cf Malay
> "bukan" for categorical negation, below
Probably the same (or a parallel construction) of the previous, except
that with statements of being, you use the negative complement _bai_ to
indicate negation:
fei so tiki bai.
that CVY.N rabbit not.COMPL
That is not a rabbit.
(BTW, as far as I know, the Malay _bukan_ is simply nominal negation,
not categorical negation; you can say _dia bukan emak saya_ - she is not
my mother, yet she may still be someone else's mother. I'm not a native
speaker, though, so maybe I'm wrong.)
> 9. neither A nor B - ie not A and not B
Tatari Faran simply appends additional predicates:
fei so tiki bai, misai bai.
that CVY.N rabbit not.COMPL deer not.COMPL
That is not a rabbit nor a deer.
> A secondary question is, if you wish to comment, how strictly do they
> match the logician's view of those connectives?
Not very. Inclusive-or is rather rare in natlangs (or at least, it's not
usually distinguished from exclusive-or, which is often assumed), so TF
doesn't have an explicit construction for it. Even more, _ibe_ has the
feeling of "if not (this), then", so it could also mean "otherwise".
The if-then construction with _era_ is also rather lax. It can mean
either "A if and only if B", or "if A then B". Which one is meant
depends on the context, and sometimes it's ambiguous.
As for negation, TF doesn't understand the concept of double negation:
i.e., negatives do not cancel. Negatives are strengthened the more of
them you stack (e.g., in the example where a strong negation is conveyed
by using both _be_ and _bei-_ in the same clause). Another example,
which is somewhat like Russian:
huu na hamra be bahai ko bei'aram.
I RCP.M see not nothing ORG.N not:COMPL
I don't see anything at all (lit., I don't see nothing not at all).
Unlike Russian, though, stacking negatives is optional.
T
--
Don't hide in the closet; wear yourself out.
Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________
6b. Re: FW: 'Nor' in the World's Languages
Posted by: "Henrik Theiling" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Mon Aug 7, 2006 7:04 pm (PDT)
Hi!
H. S. Teoh writes:
>...
> In Tatari Faran: A B ei.
> Example:
> kiran sa diru si'ei.
> young.man CVY.M girl CVY.F:and
> The young man and the girl.
>...
You wrote an entire post and even a long one, without mentioning a cinder cone
in
any if your Tatari Faran examples. What's wrong?
:-)))
Ok, you did mention volcanos.
Never mind... :-) That's a very nice language you have!
**Henrik
Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________
6c. Re: FW: 'Nor' in the World's Languages
Posted by: "H. S. Teoh" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Mon Aug 7, 2006 7:42 pm (PDT)
On Tue, Aug 08, 2006 at 03:58:33AM +0200, Henrik Theiling wrote:
> Hi!
>
> H. S. Teoh writes:
> >...
> > In Tatari Faran: A B ei.
> > Example:
> > kiran sa diru si'ei.
> > young.man CVY.M girl CVY.F:and
> > The young man and the girl.
> >...
>
> You wrote an entire post and even a long one, without mentioning a
> cinder cone in any if your Tatari Faran examples. What's wrong?
>
> :-)))
:-)
> Ok, you did mention volcanos.
That's right! :-) I wonder if this is a(n unconscious) principle I keep,
that every Tatari Faran post has at least one volcanic reference.
> Never mind... :-) That's a very nice language you have!
[...]
Thanks. :-) Always good to know my efforts are appreciated. (Not that
I've done anything much with TF recently, but there's a semi-new thing
which I think I'll write about, now that I'm sorta back on the list.)
Speaking of which... I just discovered earlier today, to my chagrin,
that langmaker.com has turned into a Wiki. What's up with the
wikiphilia?? Whatever happened to the original site?
(Having said that, however, I've actually indulged in beautifying the TF
entry on the wiki, so I really have no cause for complaint. :-P)
T
--
Don't drink and derive. Alcohol and algebra don't mix.
Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/conlang/
<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
------------------------------------------------------------------------
