There are 17 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1. Nimrina color chart
From: Herman Miller
2. Re: "and"
From: Philip Newton
3a. Re: Comparison Þrjótrunn - Icelandic - Latin
From: Arnt Richard Johansen
3b. Re: Comparison Þrjótrunn - Icelandic - Latin
From: Henrik Theiling
4a. Re: Nimrina phonology
From: Benct Philip Jonsson
4b. Re: Nimrina phonology
From: Herman Miller
5a. Re: Comparison Þrjótrunn - Icelandic - Latin
From: Benct Philip Jonsson
5b. Re: Comparison Þrjótrunn - Icelandic - Latin
From: Henrik Theiling
5c. Re: Comparison Þrjótrunn - Icelandic - Latin
From: Henrik Theiling
5d. Re: Comparison Þrjótrunn - Icelandic - Latin
From: Edgard Bikelis
6a. Re: Euphonic phonology (Was: 'Nor' in the World's Languages)
From: Benct Philip Jonsson
6b. Re: Euphonic phonology (Was: 'Nor' in the World's Languages)
From: Carsten Becker
6c. Re: Euphonic phonology (Was: 'Nor' in the World's Languages)
From: Carsten Becker
7. Re: TYPOLOGY: (conlangs and natlangs): "Tense-Prominent" vs
From: Jörg Rhiemeier
8. Re: 'Nor' in the World's Languages
From: Carsten Becker
9. Re: Listen to Languages
From: Carsten Becker
10. Re: Tatari Faran update
From: Carsten Becker
Messages
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1. Nimrina color chart
Posted by: "Herman Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Thu Aug 17, 2006 9:46 pm (PDT)
http://www.io.com/~hmiller/png/nimrina-colors.png
A few sample words of Nimrina. It's too early to establish a "feel" for
the sounds of the language, so some of these may change over time. It's
based on the same decimal color system as Lindiga, with minor
variations. The 10 basic colors are:
hádry [ha:d`z`1] red
myzry [m1z`:1] orange
ríva [z`i:va] yellow
sívyn [s_ji:v`n] yellow-green
tavla [tavla] green
perta [pEs`t`a] turquoise
híli [Ci:l_ji] blue
kaspi [kasp_ji] indigo
lúma [lu:ma] purple
tauma [tauma] magenta
Additionally, "tsa-" is a prefix for pale colors, and "zyn-" for dark
colors; these produce initial consonant mutations.
tsavádry pale red
tsadavla pale green zyndavla dark green
tsavíli pale blue zymvíli dark blue
Specific words for other colors are also illustrated:
vúri [vu:z`i] dark brown
lurá [luz`a:] medium brown
trúnu [t`s`u:nu] tan
nylny [n1ln1] maroon
zatta [zat:a] bright red
mevzi [mEvz_ji] pink
hríva [s`i:va] lavender
gobyn [gOb1n] olive-green
dmázi [Dma:z_ji] blue-green
nidlu [n_jidlu] violet
rarmu [z`az`mu] mauve
Messages in this topic (1)
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2. Re: "and"
Posted by: "Philip Newton" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Fri Aug 18, 2006 6:19 am (PDT)
On 8/15/06, Doug Dee <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> A conlang example is Klingon, which has _je_ to join NPs and _'ej_ to join
> clauses.
And, as in Tatari Faran, _je_ also functions as "also".
(And Klingon _je_ shares with English the ambiguity where "I saw you,
too" can mean either "(I, too) saw you" = "I saw you, and others saw
you as well" and "I saw (you, too)" = "I saw you, and I saw others as
well". And, though the dictionary doesn't make this explicit, I
wouldn't be surprised if it could also mean "I (saw, too) you" = "I
saw you, but that was not the only thing I 'did to' you [e.g. I also
talked to you]".)
Cheers,
--
Philip Newton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Messages in this topic (10)
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3a. Re: Comparison Þrjótrunn - Icelandic - Latin
Posted by: "Arnt Richard Johansen" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Fri Aug 18, 2006 6:28 am (PDT)
On Fri, 18 Aug 2006, Henrik Theiling wrote:
> http://www.kunstsprachen.de/s17/s_01.html#03
>
> Comments?
# False Friends
# Þrjótrunn Icelandic
# [...]
# þrjótur Iceland villain
Hahaha! Wonderful!
Why the sudden change from "Þrjótran" to "Þrjótrunn", by the way?
--
Arnt Richard Johansen http://arj.nvg.org/
I think it's fair to say that a lot of Hikawa's popularity is due to the
novelty factor of his youth; most male enka singers look like they've been
driving trucks up and down the Tomei Highway for 20 years while living on a
diet of ramen, shochu and shabu (speed). -Steve McClure
Messages in this topic (7)
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3b. Re: Comparison Þrjótrunn - Icelandic - Latin
Posted by: "Henrik Theiling" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Fri Aug 18, 2006 7:21 am (PDT)
Hi!
Arnt Richard Johansen writes:
> On Fri, 18 Aug 2006, Henrik Theiling wrote:
>
> > http://www.kunstsprachen.de/s17/s_01.html#03
> >
> > Comments?
>
> # False Friends
> # Þrjótrunn Icelandic
> # [...]
> # þrjótur Iceland villain
>
> Hahaha! Wonderful!
Pure coincidence! :-) Really! :-)
> Why the sudden change from "Þrjótran" to "Þrjótrunn", by the way?
Those are different nom.sg. forms of the adjective. -an is feminine
and -unn is neuter. (And the neuter used to be -un until I changed
the grammar recently.)
The reason why I changed it is that although you would say 'Þrjótran
Lyng' for 'Icelandic language', when referring to it without the
'lyng' (< lingua, thus feminine), you'd use the neuter form. So it
has not really changed name, I just used a different adjective at
first.
**Henrik
Messages in this topic (7)
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4a. Re: Nimrina phonology
Posted by: "Benct Philip Jonsson" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Fri Aug 18, 2006 6:43 am (PDT)
Herman Miller skrev:
> Benct Philip Jonsson wrote:
>> Nice. Do /K/ ~ /l/ also pattern as a voiceless-voiced pair?
>
> Currently, yes: ríva "yellow" + hlázi "tea" = rívalázi "green tea".
Nice! Maybe /l7 has an [K\] allophone?
>
>> Are all /h/s from *f? If not /h/ may alternate with zero in some
>> cases!
>
> I've considered the possibility that not all /h/'s are from an
> earlier /f/; perhaps there was a /x/ : /G/ contrast and the /G/'s
> dropped out.
That was exactly my thought.
> Loss of /G/ could also account for some of the long vowels and
> diphthongs.
Yes. I didn't think of that, but it's reasonable -- not only
through V-/G/-V > VV, but also through /G/ > /j/ > /i/ after
front vowels and /G/ > /w/ > /u/ after back vowels as in the
history of English. It is even the case that _ig_ was a
rather frequent inverted spelling for historical /i:/ in late
Old English. Swedish also has _slöjd_ and _nejd_ from Old
Swedish _sløghdh_ and _næghdh_; Turkish had a similar change
also IIRC (Turkic /b&G/ > Turkish _bey_.
> I have a feeling that if I want a naturalistic phonology I'm going to
> have to go into the history to some extent.
Yes, since historical sound-changes is *the* way morpho-
phonemic alterations and irregularities. It is also
IMHO Great Fun to develop a family of languages from a
common ancestor -- though it can get incredibly messy.
At least I tend to spawn off new dialects when faced
with alternative possible developments.
>>> Spelling is more or less phonemic, with some complications; for
>>> instance, /z`/ is "r" and /r/ is "rr", so long /z`:/ is written
>>> "zr" to avoid confusion with /r/.
>>
>> Somehow _rz_ for /z`z`/ would seem more right to me, probably
>> because Swedish retroflexes represent /r/+dental, and because _rz_
>> is one of the spellings of Polish /z`/, but perhaps /rz/ is a
>> possible cluster while **/zr/ isn't?
>
> Either spelling would work, but /rz/ I'm thinking would assimilate to
> /zz/. Of course, progressive assimilation is always a possibility,
> but if assimilation is regressive, I can let "rz" represent an
> original /rz/ which in the current language is pronounced /z:/.
IIRC both /zZ/ and /Zz/ actually become [z\:] in Russian.
Yitzik, are you around?
>
>> BTW did you know that _nimir/nimri/nimrim_ is the word for
>> 'Elf/Elves' in Tolkien's Adûnaic language?
>
> I don't know if I've seen anything about Adûnaic. Was this in one of
> the "History of Middle-Earth" volumes? It's possible I may have seen
> this long ago, but I didn't have anything particular in mind when I
> came up with the name Nimrína.
Yes it can be found in "Sauron Defeated" aka "History of Middle-Earth
volume 9". BTW the only thing approaching a grammar by T. of one of
his languages that has been published.
So what kind of people speak Nimrína? I hope I haven't
influenced your thought in some unwanted direction by this
bit of trivia!
--
/BP 8^)>
--
Benct Philip Jonsson -- melroch at melroch dot se
"Maybe" is a strange word. When mum or dad says it
it means "yes", but when my big brothers say it it
means "no"!
(Philip Jonsson jr, age 7)
Messages in this topic (8)
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4b. Re: Nimrina phonology
Posted by: "Herman Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Fri Aug 18, 2006 7:46 pm (PDT)
Benct Philip Jonsson wrote:
> Herman Miller skrev:
>> Benct Philip Jonsson wrote:
>>> Nice. Do /K/ ~ /l/ also pattern as a voiceless-voiced pair?
>>
>> Currently, yes: ríva "yellow" + hlázi "tea" = rívalázi "green tea".
>
> Nice! Maybe /l7 has an [K\] allophone?
I wóuld like to get [K\] involved somehow. Voiced stops have fricative
allophones, as in /dmázi/ [Dma:z_ji] "blue-green". Possibly /nidlu/
"violet" could be [n_jidK\u]. Or another possibility could be lengthened
/l/ between vowels.
>> I don't know if I've seen anything about Adûnaic. Was this in one of
>> the "History of Middle-Earth" volumes? It's possible I may have seen
>> this long ago, but I didn't have anything particular in mind when I
>> came up with the name Nimrína.
>
> Yes it can be found in "Sauron Defeated" aka "History of Middle-Earth
> volume 9". BTW the only thing approaching a grammar by T. of one of
> his languages that has been published.
I'll have to check that out. I don't think I've seen that before. If
anything, I might have been thinking of something like "Nimravidae", a
family of prehistoric cats.
> So what kind of people speak Nimrína? I hope I haven't
> influenced your thought in some unwanted direction by this
> bit of trivia!
I've been thinking about that over the last couple days, and I've come
to the conclusion that the speakers belong to a secretive race of people
with fox-tails, best known in Scandinavia, where they inspired the
legends of the "huldre".
Messages in this topic (8)
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5a. Re: Comparison Þrjótrunn - Icelandic - Latin
Posted by: "Benct Philip Jonsson" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Fri Aug 18, 2006 6:56 am (PDT)
Henrik Theiling skrev:
> Hi!
>
> I've added a small overview to my Þrjótrunn pages for an easy
> comparison of the languages. It clearly shows that Icelanders will
> probably be a bit confused by the declension tables to due false
> friends among the affixes. :-)
>
> There's also an overview of the first four declensions of Latin and
> what is typically the result in Þrjótrunn.
>
> http://www.kunstsprachen.de/s17/s_01.html#03
>
> Comments?
Mjög gaman! At first I thought "Hey, there *is*
a Latin word for 'birch'!" but on looking it up
I found that BETULA/BETULUS (with numerous variants
in Romance *here* is a loan from Gaulish into
Latin, so it's actually quite reasonable that
your 'North Romance' borrowed its word for
this tree from Germanic.
Does the statement "A four cases system is retained"
apply to the peninsular Scandinavo-Romance languages
*there* as well? If *here* is anuthing to go by one
would expect them not to be as conservative. BTW
it would be fun to see what Finnish *there* looks
like, with all loans from Germanic to Modern Swedish
replaced by Scandinavo-Romance loans with different
degrees of assimilation.
And how does _animal_ become _aðal_? I can see
unstressed posttonic _nim_ become _nn_, but whence
_nn_ > _ð_? But it would become _agnial_ [a'Jal]
or _anal_ in R3, so who am I to complain!? ;-)
(In actual fact _agniáille_ < ANIMALIA or the
boring _best_ < BESTIA are both more likely.
After all no language is likely to tolerate a
merger or near merger of the words for 'animal'
and 'sheep/lamb' -- cf. Gascon were 'rooster'
is from VICARIUS because GALLUS merged with
CATTUS!
--
/BP 8^)>
--
Benct Philip Jonsson -- melroch at melroch dot se
"Maybe" is a strange word. When mum or dad says it
it means "yes", but when my big brothers say it it
means "no"!
(Philip Jonsson jr, age 7)
Messages in this topic (7)
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5b. Re: Comparison Þrjótrunn - Icelandic - Latin
Posted by: "Henrik Theiling" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Fri Aug 18, 2006 8:20 am (PDT)
Hi!
Benct Philip Jonsson writes:
> Henrik Theiling skrev:
>...
> > http://www.kunstsprachen.de/s17/s_01.html#03
> > Comments?
>
> Mjög gaman! At first I thought "Hey, there *is*
> a Latin word for 'birch'!" but on looking it up
> I found that BETULA/BETULUS (with numerous variants
> in Romance *here* is a loan from Gaulish into
> Latin, so it's actually quite reasonable that
> your 'North Romance' borrowed its word for
> this tree from Germanic.
Exactly. I had already sound shifted 'betula' when I noticed that it
is unlikely to having been borrowed when the first written appearance
(that we know of) was ~50 BCE. Probably it was not the most used
word, but birch trees are quite common in the North, therefore, it was
quickly borrowed from the local Germanic word.
>...
> Does the statement "A four cases system is retained"
> apply to the peninsular Scandinavo-Romance languages
> *there* as well?
>...
I don't know, the Institute of Parallel Histories did not send any
reports about that yet, but I think it's unlikely. *Here*, only few
Germanic and no Romance language have retained it, so I think it's an
uncommon archaic feature.
> If *here* is anuthing to go by one would expect them not to be as
> conservative.
>...
Exactly.
> BTW it would be fun to see what Finnish *there* looks like, with all
> loans from Germanic to Modern Swedish replaced by Scandinavo-Romance
> loans with different degrees of assimilation.
Yes! That would be very interesting.
> And how does _animal_ become _aðal_? I can see
> unstressed posttonic _nim_ become _nn_, but whence
> _nn_ > _ð_?
>...
Some words shifted /nm/ > /Dm/. The /m/ dropped in forms with double
syncope */aDmli/ > /aDli/, simplifying the cluster, and this spread to
the unsyncopated forms, too.
It may well be that there are few (or no?) Germanic word were /nm/ >
/Dm/ happened, since I did not find one with -nVm- in the stem just
now. (I should have added examples to *every* rule. Grrrr.)
Anyway, similar effects happened in /nnr/ > /Dr/ (*mannr > maDr) and
maybe in /mn/ > /fn/ (*nemni > nefni).
> But it would become _agnial_ [a'Jal] or _anal_ in R3, so who am I to
> complain!? ;-) (In actual fact _agniáille_ < ANIMALIA or the boring
> _best_ < BESTIA are both more likely. After all no language is
> likely to tolerate a merger or near merger of the words for 'animal'
> and 'sheep/lamb' -- cf. Gascon were 'rooster' is from VICARIUS
> because GALLUS merged with CATTUS!
Yes, that's a funny one. :-)
I'm also having some problems of this kind with a/o-declension pairs
in Þrjótrunn, e.g. 'filia' vs. 'filius'. Latin only had to
disambiguate the dat.pl. in -i:s (there is 'filia:bus' for this
reason). But in Þrjótrunn, many more forms collapse.
Maybe the u-declension, which has a small revival for tree names
(e.g. björk) will take over the function of disambiguating feminines
that are important to be distinguished from the masculine. However,
the nom.sg. and acc.sg. are identical to 2nd decl. masc. forms, so
this is not too good an idea. Actually any declension class shift
would leave at least the acc.sg. identical. So more probably I will
have to use completely different words, but that's a bit unelegant.
Any other ideas?
Ah, and 'cattus' is another Latin loan in Icelandic, so I can quite
safely enter a new word (köttur) into the lexicon. :-)
**Henrik
Messages in this topic (7)
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5c. Re: Comparison Þrjótrunn - Icelandic - Latin
Posted by: "Henrik Theiling" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Fri Aug 18, 2006 8:29 am (PDT)
Hi!
Henrik Theiling writes:
>...
> (that we know of) was ~50 BCE. Probably it was not the most used
>...
Grrr. ~50 CE, of course, otherwise it could well have been used.
(The cited source is usually Plinius (23/24-79 CE)).
**Henrik
Messages in this topic (7)
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5d. Re: Comparison Þrjótrunn - Icelandic - Latin
Posted by: "Edgard Bikelis" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Fri Aug 18, 2006 8:52 am (PDT)
Henrik Theiling wrote:
> Hi!
>
> I've added a small overview to my Þrjótrunn pages for an easy
> comparison of the languages. It clearly shows that Icelanders will
> probably be a bit confused by the declension tables to due false
> friends among the affixes. :-)
>
> There's also an overview of the first four declensions of Latin and
> what is typically the result in Þrjótrunn.
>
> http://www.kunstsprachen.de/s17/s_01.html#03
>
> Comments?
>
> Bye,
> Henrik
>
>
Hi!
That is the first time I see this section of your site, and I've
found it quite impressive! I am graduating in Latin, and reading it
these pages while declining (?) mentally was really curious, seeing how
you did the sound shifting and all. The layout is good too... rare to
see a sans serif page that I like ; ).
I saw you have a Portuguese dictionary. If you need anything about
its historical development, I may know, and if not, it is easy to me to
find out.
About the phonology, I doubt I can speak anything in Þrjótrunn
properly. These vowels and consonantal clusters are a little scary... sigh.
Edgard.
Messages in this topic (7)
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6a. Re: Euphonic phonology (Was: 'Nor' in the World's Languages)
Posted by: "Benct Philip Jonsson" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Fri Aug 18, 2006 8:07 am (PDT)
Andræyas Yuhensun isnerq:
> [Massive snippage ahead]
>
> Quoting Benct Philip Jonsson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>
>> Xriçten Talman (Christian Thalmann) isnerq:
>>> --- In [email protected], Henrik Theiling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Anyway, do others also have such a hard time finding personally
>>>> pleasing phonologies? I find it awefully difficult.
>>> Not at all, I absolutely love making phonologies. Disappointingly
>>> (?), I usually end up with rather simple vowel systems, and no
>>> hard-to-pronounce consonants. But maybe that's just the recipe
>>> for pleasing phonologies? It seems to work for Quenya, IMHO the
>>> hallmark of pleasing phonology.
>> I'm the quintessential phonology nerd. Indeed my conlangs seldom
and only with an effort develop beyond a phonology.
>
> I might not be quite quintessential (maybe "sexessential"? :)), but
I'm definitely a phonology nerd too. I can spend unlimited time crafting
the phonology and morphology of a language, but syntax tends
> to bore me (which, unfotrunatly, tends to lead to boring syntax :(),
> and I find lexicon-building very slow work.
Yes, and I'm slow even with the stuff I like!
> I'm afraid I just can't use random word generators, partly because
they get horrid to write (one for Tairezazh, frex, would need to throw
in dental stops with higher frequency than velar ones, or the resultant
vocabulary would just sound wrong, and so on for umpteen different
variables),
Yes, weighting, as it is called, *is* a bit troublesome.
There are ways around it however. BTW it can even be a
problem with a-posteriori langs: I once crafted an historical
phonology that made the resulting language end up with
/g/ as the most common stop. Hardly naturalistic, as in
fact /g/ tends to be the least frequent stop, and often even
lost altogether.
> partly because I feel a need to mentally meld form and meaning
> together in my head. It's not that I think form should *fit* meaning
> on some absolute sense (except for onomatopoeia) - Meghean ['anja]
> and Steienzh [zEd_dl_d=], both meaning "girl", are hardly very
> similar - but just that I need to find a combination that feels
> "right" in the context of the language.
Yes. FYI I find myself reorganizing my generated wordlists
just for that reason.
>> Kate skrev:
>>>
>>> I do, although for me it's more about how the language looks than
>>> how it actually sounds. Since I create most of my languages for
stories, how the language looks in transliteration is important to me.
(And I'm picky about the transliteration not being too inaccurate or
ambiguous, too.) I probably spend more time trying to balance what I
consider interesting and pleasing with what's sensible and pleasing in
transliteration.
>>>
>>> What I wonder, is does anyone have the same problem when it comes
>>> to morphology, syntax, etc? Sometimes I end up tossing a whole
language because I don't think it's elegant enough, enough though
>>> there are at least ten different reasons that doing that is silly.
>>>
>>
>> Oh yes! I often find myself ending up with too elegant (i.e. too
regular) morphology and syntax, or even worse with what IMNSHO are
>> too bland phonology and syntax (i.e. too Standard Average European.)
>
> Those are problems I experience too. Tairezazh, in particular, is
insanely regular - not only is the frequency of regular inflections too
high, but the irregularities themselves are too regular! Luckily,
> Meghean's spelling is rather quirky ...
Look at Kijeb <http://wiki.frath.net/Kijeb> which is
awfully regular even for a reconstructed proto-language.
It does have some sandhi-induced weirdness in the
formation of pronominal plurals and in verbal morphology,
but the latter is in for a revamp because the underlying
morphology represents a faulty understanding of hierarchic
alignment.
> As for SAEness, my languages show plenty of that, tho not without
some quirks. Sapir, IIRC, said that SAE languages have a tripartite
tense division past~present~future; this isn't all that true of actual
European languages, but it's very true of my Klaishic family! Meghean,
as a conscious reaction against this, goes the other way, with a TAM
system that is chiefly concerned with aspect, secondarily with mood, and
hardly at all with tense per se.
Alas I must confess that I have trouble getting my
brain to process anything but past~present~future,
finding even what little aspect there is in Latin,
Greek and Vedic mind-boggling. Not a good sign as
I'm currently enlisted to learn Russian! :-/
For Kijeb I tried to come up with a realis-irrealis
system instead, and with some aspect, since subordinate
clauses have a verbal noun instead of a finite verb,
and the case forms come to mean things like 'before,
after, simultaneously' WRT the main clause.
>> Like you I'm picky about transcription/transliteration/Romanization.
I have some ingrained peeves, of which "|h| digraphs should preferably
be used only to indicate aspiration and/or voiceless sonorants, and
*not* as a fricativizer, even less as a palatalizer and *absolutely not*
as a random modifier" is the chief one.
>
> I've always liked using -h for fricativization - witness Meghean,
where the letter is *only* used to indicate fricativization and
phonologically related processes (such as [s]->[h], or, my favourite,
> [S]->[hj]).
The fact that |h| is *only* used as a fricativization
diacritic is of course mitigating, as is the faux Gaelic
look that results from it -- how refreshing with an
Elvish lang that looks Gaelic rather than Welsh! ;-)
But shouldn't it rather be [S] > [C]? That's what
I'd expect /hj/ to end up as -- cf. Icelandic
_hjól_ [Co:wl] 'bicycle' (like German _Rad_.
> Andreas
>
>
>
--
/BP 8^)>
--
Benct Philip Jonsson -- melroch at melroch dot se
"Maybe" is a strange word. When mum or dad says it
it means "yes", but when my big brothers say it it
means "no"!
(Philip Jonsson jr, age 7)
Messages in this topic (50)
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6b. Re: Euphonic phonology (Was: 'Nor' in the World's Languages)
Posted by: "Carsten Becker" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Fri Aug 18, 2006 2:10 pm (PDT)
From: "Henrik Theiling" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, August 12, 2006 1:30 AM
> Dirk Elzinga writes:
>>...
>> I think that a strict segregation of morphology and
>> phonology is
>> probably a mistake in lg creation, whatever your
>> analytical
>> predilections are. For me, most of the interest in
>> morphology is in
>> its interaction with phonological forms. ...
I think I haven't had success with that. In fact, I have
discarded the idea of having ablauts in Ayeri again because
I always forgot to make sensible rules, i.e. I devised
random changes. Since in Ayeri ablaut officially occurs only
in if-clauses to mark the "then" part (IIRC), it was easy to
introduce the less ambiguous "bata ... kada ..."
construction and to say that the ablaut stuff is only done
in some dialects but is not obligatory. I chose to have
ablaut in Ukele, too, but this time I chose more sensible
patterns I think so that I will keep them.
> Very true. I often failed when I tried to use a phonology
> 'module'
> for a conlang.
Funny, though, since our L1 uses ablaut frequently.
>> > P.S. more details of Miapimoquitch will be welcome.
>>
>> I'm hoping to finish the morphology section of the
>> grammar by the end
>> of the month; I'll be sure to let the list know when it's
>> done.
>
> Oh yes, please!
Seconded. BTW, do I correctly interpret what you wrote and
Miapimoquitch has pitch accent?
Carsten
--
"Miranayam kepauarà naranoaris." (Kalvin nay Hobbes)
Venena, Pihaling 21, 2315 ya 23:08:03 pd
Messages in this topic (50)
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6c. Re: Euphonic phonology (Was: 'Nor' in the World's Languages)
Posted by: "Carsten Becker" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Fri Aug 18, 2006 2:11 pm (PDT)
From: "Christian Thalmann" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, August 08, 2006 4:36 PM
> Not at all, I absolutely love making phonologies.
> Disappointingly
> (?), I usually end up with rather simple vowel systems,
> and no
> hard-to-pronounce consonants. But maybe that's just the
> recipe
> for pleasing phonologies? It seems to work for Quenya,
> IMHO the
> hallmark of pleasing phonology.
Don't take any offense, Christian or Jörg, but I don't find
Quenya that pleasing from what I heard in the recordings
Christian has made: Waaaay too many [Al:a]'s IMHO. But all
in all I agree, simplistic phonologies sound best.
Carsten
--
"Miranayam kepauarà naranoaris." (Kalvin nay Hobbes)
Venena, Pihaling 21, 2315 ya 21:21:13 pd
Messages in this topic (50)
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7. Re: TYPOLOGY: (conlangs and natlangs): "Tense-Prominent" vs
Posted by: "Jörg Rhiemeier" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Fri Aug 18, 2006 1:53 pm (PDT)
Hallo!
On Thu, 17 Aug 2006 15:41:13 +0100, Chris Bates wrote:
> I'd be very interested to know what typological generalizations it
> proposes, if you've read it. :) From "Adjective Classes: A Cross
> Linguistic Typology" I know of the following claims regarding stative
> verbs and verby adjectives vs nouny adjectives:
>
> 1)
> if a language is head marking, it will have verb-y adjectives
> if a language is dependent marking, it will have noun-y adjectives, or
> adjectives will form a separate class
>
> (2)
> if a language is aspect prominent (to use the terminology of Bhat), it
> will have verb-y adjectives
> if a language is tense prominent, it will have noun-y adjectives, or
> adjectives will form a separate class
Old Albic is mostly dependent-marking and somewhere in the middle between
aspect-prominent and tense-prominent, and has rather nouny adjectives.
... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
Messages in this topic (16)
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8. Re: 'Nor' in the World's Languages
Posted by: "Carsten Becker" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Fri Aug 18, 2006 2:09 pm (PDT)
From: "Yahya Abdal-Aziz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, August 06, 2006 8:36 AM
> In your conlangs, what kinds of logical connectives have
> you implemented?
>
> Examples would be:
>
> 1. A and B - AND
> 2. A or B or both (A and B) - the "inclusive or", OR
> 3. A or B but not both (A and B) - the "exclusive or", XOR
> 4. If A, then B - "A implies B"
> 5. A only if B - "A is implied by B"
> 6. A if and only if B - "A and B imply each other", "A
> and B are equivalent"
> 7. not A - ie the statement A is not true - cf Malay
> "tidak" for logical negation, below
> 8. M is not a N - ie the thing M is not one of the things
> N - cf Malay "bukan" for categorical negation, below
> 9. neither A nor B - ie not A and not B
I expect this to be just like in German
1. A nay B
2. A soyang B
3. Si A si B
4. Bata A kada B
5. A-nama bata B
6. --
7. A-oy
8. A B-oy
9. Sing A sing B
Like in German or English, really.
> _1) Malay certainly uses a standard "logical" negation
> "tidak" for a "logical" /neither ... nor .../
> construction.
>
> Malay uses a phrase : "juga tidak", literally "also not"
> eg "I neither knew nor wanted that" would be
> "sahaya tidak tahu juga tidak mahu itu", literally
> "I not know also not want that".
Sing makoronayang adanyaley sing manoayang.
Neither PST.know.1s.A that.P nor PST.want.1s.A
> This form, using "juga", differentiates it from an
> implicit conditional structure, such as the
> following proverb: eg "[If you] don't know, [you]
> don't want" would be "tidak tahu, tidak mahu",
> literally "not know, not want".
Bata koronoyevang kada noyevang.
If know.NEG.2s.A then want.NEG.2s.A
> _2) There is also a separate word in Malay for
> "categorical" negation: "bukan", which you would
> need to use for a "categorical" /neither ... nor
> .../ construction.
>
> eg "Neither fish nor fowl" would be
> "Bukan ikan juga bukan ayam [pula]", literally
> "Not-fish also not-fowl [again/likewise/furthermore]".
Sing ... sing ... again. Cool feature however :-)
> It's a truism that language is not logic. So it should be
> no surprise that some natural language constructions,
> which use words we have adopted as models of logical
> operations, such as "if", "not" and "and", are not
> strictly
> logical in using those very same words. And any attempt
> in
> everyday speech to use those words very precisely is
> usually derided as pedantry, or just "being smart". You
> know all this, I'm sure!
The Zwiebelfisch had a column about that on Spiegel.de some
time ago. Mr Sick wrote that his friend Henry can drive
him crazy with his prescriptivism regarding the logical use
of "yes" and "no". Sick focused on double negatives in his
article, though, the top example that was quoted was a
valid sentence in Bavarian which violates any rules of
logic:
"Der hat niemals net koa Geld net g'habt" (That guy never
ever has no money not had).
Cheers,
Carsten
--
"Miranayam kepauarà naranoaris." (Kalvin nay Hobbes)
Venena, Pihaling 21, 2315 ya 20:36:33 pd
Messages in this topic (50)
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9. Re: Listen to Languages
Posted by: "Carsten Becker" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Fri Aug 18, 2006 2:11 pm (PDT)
From: "Henrik Theiling" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2006 11:59 PM
> E.g. for a nice Koisan language with a lot of clicks:
>
> http://globalrecordings.net/program/C07480
Gotta listen to that ... if the files wouldn't be so large
(seldomly under 12 megs)
> Or for Nuxalk (or Bella Coola, the famous language of
> people having
> had in their possession a bunchberry tree
> [xKp_>X_wKtKpK:sk_wts)_>]):
>
> http://globalrecordings.net/program/C13810
It's hilarious. It's tiresome to listen to that recording if
it is the same one that I have, because the woman there
speaks so extremly slowly.
Carsten
--
"Miranayam kepauarà naranoaris." (Kalvin nay Hobbes)
Venena, Pihaling 21, 2315 ya 21:50:33 pd
Messages in this topic (7)
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10. Re: Tatari Faran update
Posted by: "Carsten Becker" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Fri Aug 18, 2006 2:14 pm (PDT)
From: "Amanda Babcock Furrow" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, August 09, 2006 3:01 AM
> On Tue, Aug 08, 2006 at 12:12:52PM -0700, H. S. Teoh
> wrote:
>
>> What do y'all think is the best approach?
Having a look at it can't hurt.
> I suppose that the conversational method must be best for
> normal people.
> Indeed, in a classroom setting it's definitely good to be
> using the
> language for meta-operations like the instructor giving
> simple commands
> such as "repeat after me" even prior to actually
> understanding *why* that
> means "repeat after me" - in other words, using the
> language to learn
> the language.
I only learnt some weeks later that ['lA:[EMAIL PROTECTED],vQ:l] breaks
down as _last of all_ and means "der allerletzte". Same for
['hu5.:r\i.,ri:d.T{:t]. ;-) But that was nine years ago when
I first came across English in school.
> Who failed to announce the birth of Peter 5/10/2006, for
> lack of time to
> write a birth announcement in merechi!
Belated congratulations then!!
Carsten
--
"Miranayam kepauarà naranoaris." (Kalvin nay Hobbes)
Venena, Pihaling 21, 2315 ya 22:25:09 pd
Messages in this topic (4)
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