There are 9 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. Re: I'm back
From: Benct Philip Jonsson
1b. Re: I'm back
From: Herman Miller
2a. Old Albic minor update
From: Jörg Rhiemeier
2b. Re: Old Albic minor update
From: Herman Miller
3. De-lurking
From: Matt Trinsic
4a. Project 55 (was: I'm back)
From: Isaac Penzev
4b. Re: Project 55 (was: I'm back)
From: Eric Christopherson
5a. Re: Syntactic differences within parts of speech
From: Javier BF
5b. Re: Syntactic differences within parts of speech
From: Eric Christopherson
Messages
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1a. Re: I'm back
Posted by: "Benct Philip Jonsson" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue Aug 29, 2006 11:35 am (PDT)
Isaac Penzev skrev:
> Henrik Theiling girs'epset':
>
>
> | Isaac Penzev <writes:
> |
> | > I've had too little time for conlanging, but still keep my interest
> | > in this hobby alive. Occasionally I pay my attention to P55 (still
> | > nameless) project: the work in progress may be seen at
> | > http://isaacp.narod.ru/55.htm (badly needs updating).
>
> FYI: The site was updated on Aug 28 11:19pm GMT+2. Now it contains about
> half of my paper notes.
What's the meaning of the empty brackets after Р(ZH) and Ы (Y),
and does it have any semantic difference from the total lack of
brackets after РРС Т У Ф Х Ц Ч Ш (R through SH)? I see you
use Ы (Y) in the declension, so it must have some value in the
lang! :-) The Òº (SSHA) letter looks strangely out of place.
Too bad there is no KH with hook in Unicode!
Wouldn't you need letters for 'Ñа - Ñа'? And wouldn't
Ъ and Ь fit the bill, as they are not in your alphabet? :-)
<rant>The idea that letters shouldn't be used with values differing
from their Russian ones always stroke me as motivated only
by a desire to faciliate eventual Russification.</rant>
FWIW I was sketching on a Neo-Tokharian, which would have
Cyrillic as its main or only script. It would need to
distinguish /ji/ from /i/ and /jM/ from /M/, and I thought
to use Р/i/ Р/ji/ Ъ /M/ Ь /jM/ (while Ы would seem out of
place for /M/ where Ð was /i/) but I was told those
assignments would seem weird to a Russophone. Well well
there are always the possibility of using Ó¤ Ó¸ for the
preceding /j/.
> | Could you give some remarks about its design goals?
>
> Its goal is to create a personal artlang that would
> (1) please my phonoesthetics (no cellar doors!);
> (2) resemble certain natlang groups that I find attractive both in phonology
> and morphosyntax, such as Turkic, Tungusic, Chukchee-Kamchatkan, Algonkian,
> Permian etc.
Sounds remarkably like my goals with Sohlob, and while
my list of attractive natlangs differs somewhat there
is some overlap (Turkic, Algonkian).
> I'm still in search for an ideal that could become my main conlang used in
> translation exercises, relays etc. This time I'm close to this goal as never
> before.
Congratulations. Hopefully I'll be able to use Sohlob
in a relay some day. I *would* be able to use Kijeb
(aka Pre-Sohlob) at this point, but the mere thought of
doing so made me start mucking around with the case
system again, as I found it way too regular...
> | **Henrik
>
> -- Yitzik
>
>
>
--
/BP 8^)>
--
Benct Philip Jonsson -- melroch at melroch dot se
"Maybe" is a strange word. When mum or dad says it
it means "yes", but when my big brothers say it it
means "no"!
(Philip Jonsson jr, age 7)
Messages in this topic (19)
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1b. Re: I'm back
Posted by: "Herman Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue Aug 29, 2006 6:32 pm (PDT)
Benct Philip Jonsson wrote:
> Isaac Penzev skrev:
>> I'm still in search for an ideal that could become my main conlang
>> used in
>> translation exercises, relays etc. This time I'm close to this goal as
>> never
>> before.
>
> Congratulations. Hopefully I'll be able to use Sohlob
> in a relay some day. I *would* be able to use Kijeb
> (aka Pre-Sohlob) at this point, but the mere thought of
> doing so made me start mucking around with the case
> system again, as I found it way too regular...
I've been thinking that pretty much all of my recent langs, especially
the ones that have been getting the most use, are way too regular. Tiki
of course (as a fictional auxlang) makes sense to be regular, and Minza
is supposed to be simple to use, without unnecessary complications.
Nimrina is still too new, but I'd like to try introducing some
irregularity to it. Still, Tirelat and Minza are the only recent ones
developed enough to use in relays and translation exercises, and they're
both unnaturally regular. Jarda, an older relay-suitable language, was
also extremely regular, although it had some interesting quirks in word
derivation.
Messages in this topic (19)
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2a. Old Albic minor update
Posted by: "Jörg Rhiemeier" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue Aug 29, 2006 11:58 am (PDT)
Hallo!
I have made a few minor changes (two new cases, modified pronouns) to the
grammar of Old Albic:
http://wiki.frath.net/Old_Albic
I am planning a major overhaul at a later date, so comment on it (readablity,
what is better moved to a separate article, etc.) is appreciated.
... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
Messages in this topic (2)
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2b. Re: Old Albic minor update
Posted by: "Herman Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue Aug 29, 2006 6:59 pm (PDT)
Jörg Rhiemeier wrote:
> Hallo!
>
> I have made a few minor changes (two new cases, modified pronouns) to the
> grammar of Old Albic:
>
> http://wiki.frath.net/Old_Albic
>
> I am planning a major overhaul at a later date, so comment on it (readablity,
> what is better moved to a separate article, etc.) is appreciated.
>
> ... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
What you've got looks pretty good and well organized. Maybe a bit on the
long side for a wiki article, but you could easily split it up into
separate articles for each section if it starts getting too long.
Interesting how the inanimate nouns have a smaller number of cases. Is
there a natlang precedent for that? (I know that neuter nouns in some
languages have ambiguous forms, but that's not quite the same thing.)
Messages in this topic (2)
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3. De-lurking
Posted by: "Matt Trinsic" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue Aug 29, 2006 1:20 pm (PDT)
Hello all,
I has been some time since I have last posted to the group. A few years
if I recall correctly. I've still been fiddling around with new
languages, it has just taken me a while to get one to a point where I am
somewhat satisfied with it. For those who are interested, I have
included the phonology for the language, named kythashy [kiT&Si], below.
The consonant phones are: [p], [b], [t], [d], [k], [g], [m], [n], [N],
[v], [T], [D], [s], [z], [S], [Z], [h], [r\], [l], [w], [j]
All of the phones are also phonemes, with the exception of [N], which is
an allophone of [n].
The vowel phones are: [i], [e], [I], [E], [&], [A], [V], [M]
Sylable structure is (C)V(n,z,v,th,sh)
The [i], [I], [&], and [V] vowels cannot be in the same word as the [e],
[E], [A], and [M] vowels.
If the initial consonant is a plosive or a frictive, it must match the
voicing of the coda of the sylable before it. /n/ is always pronouned
[n], unless it is the coda for an [i] or [e], in which case it is
pronounced [N].
~Matt Trinsic
Messages in this topic (1)
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4a. Project 55 (was: I'm back)
Posted by: "Isaac Penzev" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue Aug 29, 2006 1:51 pm (PDT)
Benct Philip Jonsson girs'epset':
| Isaac Penzev skrev:
| > Henrik Theiling girs'epset':
| > FYI: The site was updated on Aug 28 11:19pm GMT+2. Now it contains about
| > half of my paper notes.
|
| What's the meaning of the empty brackets after Р(ZH) and Ы (Y),
| and does it have any semantic difference from the total lack of
| brackets after РРС Т У Ф Х Ц Ч Ш (R through SH)?
Nay. It's haste + laziness. You must have noticed the note NOT COMPLETE near
the alphabet. Anyway, those are working notes, not a final presentation.
I'll fix it ASAP.
| I see you
| use Ы (Y) in the declension, so it must have some value in the
| lang! :-)
Ы [É]
| The Òº (SSHA) letter looks strangely out of place.
"SHHA" usu. denotes [h] or [ɦ] in extended Cyrillics. I'm not happy with
this decision, but this is the way life goes. I may change it to Ò one day.
| Too bad there is no KH with hook in Unicode!
It will be in Unicode v.5. For now SIL has it in PUA in its fonts. For me,
it is voiceless - [h].
| Wouldn't you need letters for 'Ñа - Ñа'?
They are the same phoneticly, but represent different underlying phonemes:
see Chukchee vowel harmony (TM). I put superscript "a" not as a part of
spelling, but as a reminder for me that they belong to the "low" harmonic
type ("dominant" in Chukchee). In contrast to the Ch. VH, in P55 the
harmonic type is always controlled by the root vowel, like in Turkic.
Though it may need further explanation, in practice I would think about four
vowel archiphonemes /i\/, /i/, /u/ and /a/ plus a high/low marker.
Other comments - later.
| > I'm still in search for an ideal that could become my main conlang used
in
| > translation exercises, relays etc. This time I'm close to this goal as
never
| > before.
|
| Congratulations. Hopefully I'll be able to use Sohlob
| in a relay some day.
The only thing I meant while saying "close", was the general spirit of the
project, rather than its usability etc.
| Benct Philip Jonsson -- melroch at melroch dot se
Best regards,
-- Yitzik who is not afraid to demonstrate the raw product...
Messages in this topic (2)
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4b. Re: Project 55 (was: I'm back)
Posted by: "Eric Christopherson" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue Aug 29, 2006 7:55 pm (PDT)
On Aug 29, 2006, at 3:22 PM, Isaac Penzev wrote:
> see Chukchee vowel harmony (TM). I put superscript "a" not as a
> part of
> spelling, but as a reminder for me that they belong to the "low"
> harmonic
> type ("dominant" in Chukchee). In contrast to the Ch. VH, in P55 the
Do you actually know some Chukchee? I know almost nothing about it,
but for a while I've been fascinated by its numerals (found at http://
zompist.com/asia.htm#chukchi ) -- two, three, and four seem to all be
ngVrVq, which leads me to wonder what the synchronic and diachronic
relations between the forms are. Do you know?
Messages in this topic (2)
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5a. Re: Syntactic differences within parts of speech
Posted by: "Javier BF" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue Aug 29, 2006 4:28 pm (PDT)
On Tue, 22 Aug 2006 11:11:50 -0400, Amanda Babcock Furrow
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>At any rate, I want to be able to apply this level of detail to a conlang,
>maybe even to the extent of devising a grammar with more parts of speech
>(and I mean open classes - creating a small closed class is easy) than we
>are used to. But I need ideas. Does anyone know of a resource (preferably
>online, or in books I already own ;) which addresses the detailed syntactics
>of parts of speech, or of groups of words within a part of speech, ideally
>with examples in English?
>
>Also, who can provide similar examples from their conlangs? Does your
>conlang have an extra part of speech (two separate kinds of verbs,
>perhaps, which operate differently)? Does it contain subclasses within
>parts of speech (verbs, perhaps, that can't be nominalized? Yes, I'm
>rather stuck on verbs...) Words which don't fit into any part of speech
>in the language? Any other relevant examples or thoughts?
I can provide you with a pair of examples in natlangs.
In Japanese there are:
- 'normal' verbs or "do^shi", which come in three closely related
conjugations (1: the -u ones like "kak-u" 'to write' and "kaer-u" 'to
return', 2: the -ru ones like "tabe-ru" 'to eat' and "mi-ru" 'to look', and
3: the irregular "suru" 'to do' and "kuru" 'to come')
- "i"-adjectives or "keiyo^shi" (like "aoi" '[to be] blue/green' and
"atarashii" '[to be] new'), very much like verbs but with their very
different conjugation
- "na"-adjectives or "keiyo^do^shi" (e.g. "shizuka na", ), not really
verbal, since they are used with the verb "desu" 'to be' (unlike the
"i"-adjectives which function fully as verbs in their own)
- attributive-only adjectives or "rentaishi" (such as "onaji", 'same'),
which cannot be predicated
As you can see, it is not possible to map the Japanese parts of speech of
"do^shi", "keiyo^shi", "keiyo^do^shi" and "rentaishi" into the English POS
of "verb" and "adjective", neither morphologically nor syntactically.
OTOH, in Russian there is a POS unknown in Western languages, lying halfway
between a verb and an adverb: the "category of state" or "kategoriya
sostoyaniya". These words express the state of a person or environment and
function as impersonal predicates. They are derived from adjectives by means
of the adverbial ending -o. For example, "t'emnyj/t'emnaja/t'emnoje" 'dark'
--> "t'emno" 'it is dark'.
Messages in this topic (13)
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5b. Re: Syntactic differences within parts of speech
Posted by: "Eric Christopherson" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue Aug 29, 2006 5:44 pm (PDT)
On Aug 29, 2006, at 6:07 PM, Javier BF wrote:
> In Japanese there are:
>
> - 'normal' verbs or "do^shi", which come in three closely related
> conjugations (1: the -u ones like "kak-u" 'to write' and "kaer-u" 'to
> return', 2: the -ru ones like "tabe-ru" 'to eat' and "mi-ru" 'to
> look', and
> 3: the irregular "suru" 'to do' and "kuru" 'to come')
>
> - "i"-adjectives or "keiyo^shi" (like "aoi" '[to be] blue/green' and
> "atarashii" '[to be] new'), very much like verbs but with their very
> different conjugation
>
> - "na"-adjectives or "keiyo^do^shi" (e.g. "shizuka na", ), not really
> verbal, since they are used with the verb "desu" 'to be' (unlike the
> "i"-adjectives which function fully as verbs in their own)
Isn't it that you can use "desu" to form polite forms of -i
adjectives, but you can't use the non-polite copula "da", the way you
can with -na adjectives?
> - attributive-only adjectives or "rentaishi" (such as "onaji",
> 'same'),
> which cannot be predicated
>
> As you can see, it is not possible to map the Japanese parts of
> speech of
> "do^shi", "keiyo^shi", "keiyo^do^shi" and "rentaishi" into the
> English POS
> of "verb" and "adjective", neither morphologically nor syntactically.
>
> OTOH, in Russian there is a POS unknown in Western languages, lying
> halfway
> between a verb and an adverb: the "category of state" or "kategoriya
> sostoyaniya". These words express the state of a person or
> environment and
> function as impersonal predicates. They are derived from adjectives
> by means
> of the adverbial ending -o. For example, "t'emnyj/t'emnaja/
> t'emnoje" 'dark'
> --> "t'emno" 'it is dark'.
Messages in this topic (13)
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