There are 25 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1.1. Re: Beijing, Zhongguo, etc. (was Re: 'out-' affix in conlangs?)
From: Eric Christopherson
2a. Re: Books at Lulu.com
From: Rick Harrison
2b. Re: Books at Lulu.com
From: René Uittenbogaard
3a. Re: Sibilants
From: Eric Christopherson
3b. Re: Sibilants
From: Mark J. Reed
4a. Re: TECH: info on ftp
From: Eric Christopherson
4b. Re: TECH: info on ftp
From: David J. Peterson
4c. Re: TECH: info on ftp
From: Mark J. Reed
4d. Re: TECH: info on ftp
From: ROGER MILLS
5a. Re: Communal/collaborative languages now possible at CALS
From: taliesin the storyteller
5b. Re: Communal/collaborative languages now possible at CALS
From: Jim Henry
6.1. Re: Beijing, Zhongguo, etc.
From: Mark J. Reed
6.2. Re: Beijing, Zhongguo, etc.
From: Eugene Oh
6.3. Re: Beijing, Zhongguo, etc.
From: Mark J. Reed
6.4. Re: Beijing, Zhongguo, etc.
From: Eugene Oh
6.5. Re: Beijing, Zhongguo, etc.
From: ROGER MILLS
6.6. Re: Beijing, Zhongguo, etc.
From: Mark J. Reed
6.7. Re: Beijing, Zhongguo, etc.
From: Lars Finsen
6.8. Re: Beijing, Zhongguo, etc.
From: Mark J. Reed
7. Re: info on ftp
From: Michael Poxon
8. Re: Hebrew waw consecutive (was: Beijing, Zhongguo, etc)
From: David McCann
9a. CV metathesis Q
From: Jeffrey Jones
9b. Re: CV metathesis Q
From: David J. Peterson
9c. Re: CV metathesis Q
From: ROGER MILLS
9d. Re: CV metathesis Q
From: Carl Banks
Messages
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1.1. Re: Beijing, Zhongguo, etc. (was Re: 'out-' affix in conlangs?)
Posted by: "Eric Christopherson" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:53 pm ((PDT))
On Aug 19, 2008, at 12:24 AM, Eric Christopherson wrote:
> I just found that paper today, through Language Log! As someone
> else said, Victor Mair is the editor of it, and a contributor to
> LL. AFAICT the whole journal is available online at < http://
> www.sino-platonic.org/ >. There are several papers which deal with
> Indo-European<->Sinitic relations there that I look forward to
> reading.
Oops -- they're not all available online. My mistake.
Messages in this topic (98)
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2a. Re: Books at Lulu.com
Posted by: "Rick Harrison" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Mon Aug 18, 2008 11:01 pm ((PDT))
On Mon, 18 Aug 2008 23:25:22 -0400, Jim Henry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>What about, for the second issue's cover, various of us send you image
>or text of the word "invented language" or "conlang" in our conlangs?
>Or better, perhaps, we each come up with a short sentence using
>the word "conlang" in our conlangs? I'll try to come up with something
>in gzb calligraphy and post it to you soon.
I've commissioned a graphic artist to do the cover for #2, but your idea
would work well for a future edition.
Other hobbies, like birdwatching and model railroading, are much easier to
photograph... To some degree I envy their magazine covers.
Messages in this topic (10)
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2b. Re: Books at Lulu.com
Posted by: "René Uittenbogaard" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue Aug 19, 2008 12:32 am ((PDT))
2008/8/19 Rick Harrison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> On Mon, 18 Aug 2008 18:23:14 +0200, René Uittenbogaard
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>>That's a cool 2d (language?) diagram on the cover. What's that
>>language called? Or is it just a drawing of a bird?
>
> The second one down is just a melange of glyphs from a font called
> "Crop Circles."
That's the one I meant. It does look a bit like a bird to me: from right
to left: beak, head, bent neck, body with wings top left, two legs bottom
left. So it's just a font then, not another 2d language... bummer :)
René
Messages in this topic (10)
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3a. Re: Sibilants
Posted by: "Eric Christopherson" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Mon Aug 18, 2008 11:04 pm ((PDT))
On Aug 18, 2008, at 11:07 AM, David McCann wrote:
> On Sun, 2008-08-17, Benct Philip Jonsson wrote:
>
>> I hereby propose U+01A3
>> LATIN SMALL LETTER OI = LATIN SMALL LETTER GHA
>> with CXS [q\] for the voiced uvular approximant.
>
>
>> I hearby propose [D\] as an abbreviation for [D_-
>> _o] in CXS. (Yes, I'm in a symbols-proposing mood
>> today! :-)
>
> I don't care about all this #!*$ CXS stuff, as I'm never going to use
> it, but hasn't the IPA got too many symbols already? e.g. pairs
> that are
> never contrasted, like ɘ/ə, ɱ/m. Why not just mark the unusual
> value or
> allophone with a diacritic for retracted or advanced and then use the
> simplest possible character? i.e. ð̟ for American English, ð for
> British
> English, and ð̠ for Icelandic; just once, and then ð. Actually, I
> use δ,
> but that's a whole new can of worms.
Is /D/ really different between American and UK English?
Messages in this topic (15)
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3b. Re: Sibilants
Posted by: "Mark J. Reed" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue Aug 19, 2008 7:54 am ((PDT))
On Mon, Aug 18, 2008 at 12:07 PM, David McCann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I don't care about all this #!*$ CXS stuff,
Oookay. I don't think the tone is necessary. CXS may seem
superfluous to you, but it does have the advantage of being easy to
type, even for those of us who rarely have cause to enter IPA symbols
outside of email to this very list...
> hasn't the IPA got too many symbols already? e.g. pairs that are
> never contrasted, like ɘ/ə, ɱ/m.
Those extra symbols allow for greater precision when providing a
phonetic transcription out of context, which, coincidentally, happens
a lot with conlangs, where we're not just transliterating phonemic
writing systems or presenting transcribed speech to someone familiar
with the language. Obviously you can't have enough symbols to
represent every possible articulation precisely, but where there are
obvious distinctions to be made, creating obvious gaps in the IPA, it
makes sense to fill those gaps.
--
Mark J. Reed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Messages in this topic (15)
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4a. Re: TECH: info on ftp
Posted by: "Eric Christopherson" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Mon Aug 18, 2008 11:07 pm ((PDT))
On Aug 18, 2008, at 10:45 PM, ROGER MILLS wrote:
> Who amongst y'all knows a lot about this?
About what? FTP in general?
> I looked at the wikipedia page and a couple websites and suspect
> it's beyond my capabilities. And I'm disinclined to download some
> program just for a one-time use.
>
> One site metioned that the files must be ASCII. Does that mean that
> unicode (e.g. IPA) would not be transmitted correctly? Or does that
> create another level of problems?
Binary (non-ASCII) files can be transmitted just fine with FTP. In
older clients, you had to specifically invoke binary mode, because
otherwise they would assume files transferred were text. (I'm not
sure why the distinction was made, although I think FTP clients in
text mode do automatically convert the newline characters to
whatever's appropriate.) Newer ones I think default to binary.
>
> The problem involves sending a large file, almost 1MB; even the
> individual sections are too big to attach to email, and I have
> fears about that procedure anyway..........
>
> (There are alternatives)
Yes; you could use one of those file-hosting web sites. Some email
providers allow bigger attachments than others, too. I thought most
allowed at least 1MB nowadays, but I could be wrong.
Messages in this topic (5)
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4b. Re: TECH: info on ftp
Posted by: "David J. Peterson" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue Aug 19, 2008 12:29 am ((PDT))
Roger:
<<
Who amongst y'all knows a lot about this? I looked at the wikipedia
page and a couple websites and suspect it's beyond my capabilities.
And I'm disinclined to download some program just for a one-time use.
>>
FTP is used to put stuff on the web. An FTP program is used,
essentially, to manually maintain a website. For example, my
FTP program makes the whole process look like folders on
my desktop. It works like this:
http://dedalvs.free.fr/
That's my website. Before I added anything to it, in my FTP
client, that opened up to a blank folder. Then I started adding
stuff to it. So, for example, you can add more folders, or files.
A file like links.html is a text file that then web browsers can
do something with, and you dial it up by adding "links.html"
to the above. However, the files need not necessarily just be
.html. If you throw up a .doc file, then, and dial it in, it will
give you that file--in that, you'll start downloading it.
This is how FTP can be used to transfer files. So if you want
someone else to get a .doc file, but can't send it via e-mail,
you can always put it up on a webspace somewhere. I bet
one of us (e.g., me) would put it up for you. Then you could
send the url to your correspondent, and they could download
it.
The file will be sent exactly as you composed it. *However*,
if you used a special IPA font, the recipient has to have the
font installed, too. If it's Unicode, hopefully it should work.
Another alternative is to use an instant messaging program
like AIM or Skype. If both users are logged on at the same
time, you can send a file of any size in an instant message.
You'll both have to stay on until the transfer is complete, but
if it's only 1MB, that should only take a few seconds.
-David
*******************************************************************
"A male love inevivi i'ala'i oku i ue pokulu'ume o heki a."
"No eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn."
-Jim Morrison
http://dedalvs.free.fr/
Messages in this topic (5)
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4c. Re: TECH: info on ftp
Posted by: "Mark J. Reed" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue Aug 19, 2008 7:45 am ((PDT))
FTP is just a way of moving files around the Internet, and you don't
have to download anything to use it. But you do need a special place
to put the files; you can't just FTP to someone the way you'd send
them email.
You have a website, right? How do you publish files there? Seems
like you could use that to share your file - just upload it to your
website and send them the URL. There are also other sites that offer
free space for sharing files, usually with a web page that lets you
upload things. No FTP client required.
However, for future reference, if you're using Windows and want to
access an FTP site somewhere, you can use Explorer (that's plain
Explorer the file browser, not Internet Explorer the web browser) and
just drag and drop files between it and your desktop or other
folders/windows just as if it were on your local hard drive:
1. Click Start, select Run, and type "explorer
ftp://ftpserver.somewhere.net"; where "ftpserver.somewhere.net" is the
name of the FTP server you're trying to access on the Internet.
2. You'll need to supply your username and password. However, if the
server allows anonymous access, it will just open up on the public
space by default; in that case you'll have to right-click somewhere in
the right part of the window and select "Login as..." to get to where
you can enter your username and password.
3. Drag and drop as desired.
Messages in this topic (5)
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4d. Re: TECH: info on ftp
Posted by: "ROGER MILLS" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue Aug 19, 2008 10:20 am ((PDT))
Thanks for all the advice. However, it turns out that I can send e-mail
attachments up to 20MB, so there is no problem.
Hopefully...........D'oh....................
>From: ROGER MILLS <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: Constructed Languages List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Subject: TECH: info on ftp
>Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2008 23:45:54 -0400
>
>Who amongst y'all knows a lot about this? I looked at the wikipedia page
>and a couple websites and suspect it's beyond my capabilities. And I'm
>disinclined to download some program just for a one-time use.
>
>One site metioned that the files must be ASCII. Does that mean that unicode
>(e.g. IPA) would not be transmitted correctly? Or does that create another
>level of problems?
>
>The problem involves sending a large file, almost 1MB; even the individual
>sections are too big to attach to email, and I have fears about that
>procedure anyway..........
>
>(There are alternatives)
Messages in this topic (5)
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5a. Re: Communal/collaborative languages now possible at CALS
Posted by: "taliesin the storyteller" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue Aug 19, 2008 1:13 am ((PDT))
* Jim Henry said on 2008-08-18 18:36:46 +0200
> On Mon, Aug 18, 2008 at 4:42 AM, taliesin the storyteller
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > That said, I would like to hand over "managership" of
> > Klingon and Esperanto to somebody more suitable, like anyone
> > that actually knows them beyond being able to say "hello"
> > and "I don't really speak X"...
>
> I could work on the Esperanto entry if you need me to.
'tis done. Now this has noooothing to do with me needing to get
bug-reports and feedback on how the new feature works, no, nope ;)
> Did you get the mail I sent you some days ago to your gmail
> address about the error messages I got when I added
> information about Toki Pona? If not, I'll resend it to your
> nvg.org address.
I think I have *seen* it, but I can't find it now... quite
annoying. <peeve type="pet">One of the most useful tools for
finding a mail is *sorting*, be it alphabetically, by size or by
date recedived but gmail doesn't *do* that.</peeve>
t.
Messages in this topic (2)
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5b. Re: Communal/collaborative languages now possible at CALS
Posted by: "Jim Henry" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue Aug 19, 2008 3:01 pm ((PDT))
I'm done entering featural data for Esperanto
and am working on Toki Pona.
The "Polar Questions" feature from WALS doesn't
seem to have any option that fits Toki Pona:
http://wals.info/feature/description/116
TP marks yes/no questions by juxtaposing a normal
verb and the same verb negatived, e.g.
sina toki.
You're talking.
sina toki ala toki?
Are you talking?
you talk not talk?
I could sort of squeeze that into "question particle"
but "ala" is a general negative particle, not primarily
used for questions, or I could call it "interrogative
word order" but the WALS examples involve
fronting the verb. This doesn't seem to be the
same thing.
Also, it seems as though "Prefixing vs. Suffixing
in Inflectional Morphology" should have an
option for "No affixation".
And various questions re: relative clauses should
have an option for "No relative clauses".
For now I've left all those blank for Toki Pona.
--
Jim Henry
http://www.pobox.com/~jimhenry/
Messages in this topic (2)
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6.1. Re: Beijing, Zhongguo, etc.
Posted by: "Mark J. Reed" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue Aug 19, 2008 4:38 am ((PDT))
I don't think it's the syllable/morpheme ratio, but the lack of
stress in the source lang. Even there it's not consistent: 'Szechuan
vs Bei'jing vs 'Tai'pei. 'Tokyo, Hiro'shima or Hi'roshima, etc.
On 8/19/08, Eric Christopherson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Aug 18, 2008, at 2:44 PM, Henrik Theiling wrote:
>
>> Hi!
>>
>> Mark J. Reed writes:
>>> To go back to the subject in the header for a second - am I correct
>>> that at the time of the creation of the romanization "Peking", the
>>> name was actually pronounced [pe'k_jiN], but then the
>>> diphthongalization and palatalization went further and now we have
>>> [pej'ts\iN] ?
>>
>> I forgot to mention: the stress on the second syllable is probably due
>> to misinterpretation of the Mandarin tones. Both syllables are
>> stressed in Mandarin, but higher pitch on the second might indicate
>> stress to speakers of whatever other language.
>
> In English at least it seems to be very common to stress the last
> syllable of names taken from Chinese and other languages will mostly
> monosyllabic morphemes. To me it feels like each syllable is
> perceived as a separate word for purposes of stress, and I think
> often the last word in a multi-word name is stressed. (It definitely
> feels that way if the syllables have hyphens between them.)
>
--
Sent from Gmail for mobile | mobile.google.com
Mark J. Reed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Messages in this topic (98)
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6.2. Re: Beijing, Zhongguo, etc.
Posted by: "Eugene Oh" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue Aug 19, 2008 9:37 am ((PDT))
IMO it has more to do with imposing artificial ideas of what the Anglophones
in question _think_ is the likely stress pattern of the source language,
default à la française. Hi'roshima is obviously an Anglicised stress pattern
(the latinate penult), as is 'Tokyo.
As a native Mandarin speaker, when pronouncing Chinese place names in
English my default is to destress it entirely, or to adopt the preferred
pattern of my conversation partner. I find the habit of many people to
pronounce English perfectly then suddenly say "Beijing" exactly as in
Mandarin rather disconcerting, particularly on the news networks.
On Tue, Aug 19, 2008 at 7:38 PM, Mark J. Reed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I don't think it's the syllable/morpheme ratio, but the lack of
> stress in the source lang. Even there it's not consistent: 'Szechuan
> vs Bei'jing vs 'Tai'pei. 'Tokyo, Hiro'shima or Hi'roshima, etc.
>
>
>
> On 8/19/08, Eric Christopherson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > On Aug 18, 2008, at 2:44 PM, Henrik Theiling wrote:
> >
> >> Hi!
> >>
> >> Mark J. Reed writes:
> >>> To go back to the subject in the header for a second - am I correct
> >>> that at the time of the creation of the romanization "Peking", the
> >>> name was actually pronounced [pe'k_jiN], but then the
> >>> diphthongalization and palatalization went further and now we have
> >>> [pej'ts\iN] ?
> >>
> >> I forgot to mention: the stress on the second syllable is probably due
> >> to misinterpretation of the Mandarin tones. Both syllables are
> >> stressed in Mandarin, but higher pitch on the second might indicate
> >> stress to speakers of whatever other language.
> >
> > In English at least it seems to be very common to stress the last
> > syllable of names taken from Chinese and other languages will mostly
> > monosyllabic morphemes. To me it feels like each syllable is
> > perceived as a separate word for purposes of stress, and I think
> > often the last word in a multi-word name is stressed. (It definitely
> > feels that way if the syllables have hyphens between them.)
> >
>
> --
> Sent from Gmail for mobile | mobile.google.com
>
> Mark J. Reed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
Messages in this topic (98)
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6.3. Re: Beijing, Zhongguo, etc.
Posted by: "Mark J. Reed" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue Aug 19, 2008 10:17 am ((PDT))
On Tue, Aug 19, 2008 at 12:32 PM, Eugene Oh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi'roshima is obviously an Anglicised stress pattern
One that is promulgated as the "correct" pronunciation, in contrast
with ,Hiro'shima.
> I find the habit of many people to
> pronounce English perfectly then suddenly say "Beijing" exactly as in
> Mandarin rather disconcerting, particularly on the news networks.
I call that "Alex Trebekking", and I agree that it's disconcerting. I
believe that if you're speaking English, you should pronounce things
Englishly. Don't show off your mad language skillz by ordering a
[bur:'ito] instead of a [br\='i4oU] at Taco Bell, unless you're
placing the entire order in Spanish...
--
Mark J. Reed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Messages in this topic (98)
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6.4. Re: Beijing, Zhongguo, etc.
Posted by: "Eugene Oh" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue Aug 19, 2008 11:41 am ((PDT))
I would consider Hi'roshima to be more "correct" than ,Hiro'shima, given
that the Japanese is actually Hiroshi'ma, with the apostrophe representing
the Japanese accent, which is a drop in pitch. Add to that the Tokyo
dialect's rule that the first two syllables must be contrasting in pitch, we
have low-high-high-low for Hiroshima. Of course, the local Hiroshima dialect
pronounces the name Hi'roshima (high-low-low-low as typical of many urban
dialects in western Japan), but that doesn't figure, does it? ;)
I'm ashamed to say I used to be guilty of A.T-ing, until I realised with a
start one day how entirely pretentious and annoying I sounded. I used to
actually believe that all things should be pronounced as natively as
possible, but I've since woken up and realised why there are such concepts
as "different languages" in the first place. (:
Eugene
On Wed, Aug 20, 2008 at 1:17 AM, Mark J. Reed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Tue, Aug 19, 2008 at 12:32 PM, Eugene Oh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Hi'roshima is obviously an Anglicised stress pattern
>
> One that is promulgated as the "correct" pronunciation, in contrast
> with ,Hiro'shima.
>
> > I find the habit of many people to
> > pronounce English perfectly then suddenly say "Beijing" exactly as in
> > Mandarin rather disconcerting, particularly on the news networks.
>
> I call that "Alex Trebekking", and I agree that it's disconcerting. I
> believe that if you're speaking English, you should pronounce things
> Englishly. Don't show off your mad language skillz by ordering a
> [bur:'ito] instead of a [br\='i4oU] at Taco Bell, unless you're
> placing the entire order in Spanish...
>
> --
> Mark J. Reed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
Messages in this topic (98)
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6.5. Re: Beijing, Zhongguo, etc.
Posted by: "ROGER MILLS" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue Aug 19, 2008 12:52 pm ((PDT))
Mark Reed wrote:
> > I find the habit of many people to
> > pronounce English perfectly then suddenly say "Beijing" exactly as in
> > Mandarin rather disconcerting, particularly on the news networks.
>
>I call that "Alex Trebekking", and I agree that it's disconcerting. I
>believe that if you're speaking English, you should pronounce things
>Englishly. Don't show off your mad language skillz by ordering a
>[bur:'ito] instead of a [br\='i4oU] at Taco Bell, unless you're
>placing the entire order in Spanish...
I don't disagree, but as a long-time fan of Jeopardy, I'll defend Alex. He's
not entirely consistent. True, he pronounces French words correctly, but
then, he's a Canadian, and they're supposed to know....
I first began to notice this practice back in the 80s, during Iran-Contra,
when all of a sudden some (non-Hispanic) newspeople started pronouncing
"Nicaragua, Ortega, contra(s)" etc a l'espagnole; at some point SNL Weekend
Update did a nice take on it........
Messages in this topic (98)
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6.6. Re: Beijing, Zhongguo, etc.
Posted by: "Mark J. Reed" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue Aug 19, 2008 1:33 pm ((PDT))
On Tue, Aug 19, 2008 at 3:52 PM, ROGER MILLS <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I don't disagree, but as a long-time fan of Jeopardy, I'll defend Alex.
I'm also a long-time fan of both Jeopardy! and Alex Trebek. I'm not
going to let a little thing like that keep me from poking fun at the
man. <SeanConnery>"Dammit, Trebek!"</SeanConnery>
I must also say, I think it's shameful the way the modern incarnation
of Jeopardy! celebrates its history as if the concept sprang into
being with Alex Trebek attached in 1984. Never mind that it had
premiered 20 years before that with Art Fleming...
--
Mark J. Reed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Messages in this topic (98)
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6.7. Re: Beijing, Zhongguo, etc.
Posted by: "Lars Finsen" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue Aug 19, 2008 1:57 pm ((PDT))
Den 19. aug. 2008 kl. 20.37 skreiv Eugene Oh:
> I would consider Hi'roshima to be more "correct" than ,Hiro'shima,
Sorry, what does it signify that initial comma there?
> I'm ashamed to say I used to be guilty of A.T-ing, until I realised
> with a start one day how entirely pretentious and annoying I
> sounded. I used to actually believe that all things should be
> pronounced as natively as
> possible, but I've since woken up and realised why there are such
> concepts as "different languages" in the first place. (:
Well, but does this mean that all languages should have their own
ways for spelling and pronouncing every foreign name? I was subjected
to several rounds of an English spelling game called Oxford Dilemma
when I visited some Canadian relatives lately who had settled in
northern Norway, and I had a few pretty frustrating times over some
of the foreign names. Careless pronunciation of foreign words feels
disrespectful somehow, and from my point of view I find the
degradation of a perfectly fine word like burrito kind of
disconcerting. I guess the phonetics of English makes it more
difficult to pronounce foreign names than in many other languages. No
wonder we have so many YAEPTs here. Visiting Germans and Italians for
example don't have much difficulty producing recognisable
pronunciations of Norwegian names (also just as an example), but the
English, and I guess the French, have more problems. But why not at
least try? Because you don't need to, I guess...
LEF
Messages in this topic (98)
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6.8. Re: Beijing, Zhongguo, etc.
Posted by: "Mark J. Reed" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue Aug 19, 2008 2:37 pm ((PDT))
On Tue, Aug 19, 2008 at 4:53 PM, Lars Finsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Visiting Germans and Italians for example don't
> have much difficulty producing recognisable pronunciations of Norwegian
> names (also just as an example), but the English, and I guess the French,
> have more problems. But why not at least try? Because you don't need to, I
> guess...
Let's not conflate different things, here. If I'm visiting Norway, of
course I'm going to try to pronounce everything in the proper
Norwegian manner. That's not what I'm talking about.
If I'm standing in my office in Atlanta, Georgia, USA, carrying on a
conversation in English, and talking about the recent visit of our
friend from Oslo, I'm going to say ['azloU], because that's how the
name is pronounced in English. If I say "Our friend from [uslu] was
just in town", I'll get strange looks, and nobody will know what the
heck I'm talking about - except perhaps my Swedish colleague, if she
happens to be in the conversation. That would be the sort of thing I
refer to as "Trebekking".
It's a simple fact that most Americans, even well-educated Americans
who actually know that Oslo is the capital of Norway, have never heard
the name pronounced in the Norwegian manner - or if they have, they
didn't recognize it as the same name that they know as Oslo.
Similarly, when describing last year's trip to Italy, I mention
Venice, Rome, and Florence - not Venezia, Roma, or Firenze. The
layover on the flight back was in ['&mstr\=d&m], not [EMAIL PROTECTED]'dAm].
And if I'd taken a side trip to see the Eiffel ['aIf5=] Tower, it
would have been in ['pE`r\Is fr&ns], not [p@'Ri fRa~s], although the
latter would likely be understood by more folks over here than the
other examples.
--
Mark J. Reed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Messages in this topic (98)
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7. Re: info on ftp
Posted by: "Michael Poxon" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue Aug 19, 2008 5:41 am ((PDT))
The better FTP apps should allow you to transmit files of a type other than
plain ASCII. There are several free FTP programs out there. If you use
Firefox, you can get an FTP plug-in, Fire FTP which I believe allows
transmission of non-ASCII files.
Mike
----- Original Message -----
From: "ROGER MILLS" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2008 4:45 AM
Subject: TECH: info on ftp
> Who amongst y'all knows a lot about this? I looked at the wikipedia page
> and a couple websites and suspect it's beyond my capabilities. And I'm
> disinclined to download some program just for a one-time use.
>
> One site metioned that the files must be ASCII. Does that mean that
> unicode (e.g. IPA) would not be transmitted correctly? Or does that create
> another level of problems?
>
> The problem involves sending a large file, almost 1MB; even the individual
> sections are too big to attach to email, and I have fears about that
> procedure anyway..........
>
> (There are alternatives)
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.6.4/1616 - Release
> Date: 16/08/2008 17:12
>
>
Messages in this topic (1)
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8. Re: Hebrew waw consecutive (was: Beijing, Zhongguo, etc)
Posted by: "David McCann" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue Aug 19, 2008 6:43 am ((PDT))
On Mon, 2008-08-18 at 09:44 +0200, Benct Philip Jonsson wrote:
> On 2008-08-18 J R wrote:
> > The ubiquitous conjunction /w@/ 'and, but,
> > change tense', did not undergo this change.
> A conjunction meaning 'change tense'!?
>
> Sounds good! You will have to explain that. :-)
>
The fast-forward version is that archaic Hebrew had a verbal form in w-
and later writers assumed that this prefix was the synonymous word
"and". Thus wayyiktōb "he wrote (perfective)" was taken to be wa "and"
plus yiktōb "he writes (imperfective)". It looked as if the conjunction
was switching the aspect of the verb.
The construction is known to western scholars as the waw conversive (as
converting the aspect) or waw consecutive (because used in narration).
This misinterpretation is why older translations of the Old Testament
have so many sentences beginning with "and".
Messages in this topic (1)
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9a. CV metathesis Q
Posted by: "Jeffrey Jones" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue Aug 19, 2008 1:06 pm ((PDT))
I've been playing with a sketch where most of the verbs have two basic
stems, CVCVC and CVCCV, to which a number of affixes are added. Mostly,
I've been working on filling in the specific morphology and on subsequent
development (sound changes etc.) but recently, I started wondering exactly
how the two stems came about in the first place. Any ideas?
I should probably mention that the first stem can take (C)V(C) suffixes while
the second can take C((C)V) suffixes and that some of the suffixes also have
alternating forms (CVC vs. CCV and VC vs. CV).
I've been googling and it seems most morphology theorists disapprove of this
sort of thing.
Messages in this topic (4)
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9b. Re: CV metathesis Q
Posted by: "David J. Peterson" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue Aug 19, 2008 2:10 pm ((PDT))
JJ:
<<
I've been googling and it seems most morphology theorists disapprove
of this
sort of thing.
>>
Which morphologists?
JJ:
<<
I've been playing with a sketch where most of the verbs have two basic
stems, CVCVC and CVCCV, to which a number of affixes are added. Mostly,
I've been working on filling in the specific morphology and on
subsequent
development (sound changes etc.) but recently, I started wondering
exactly
how the two stems came about in the first place. Any ideas?
I should probably mention that the first stem can take (C)V(C)
suffixes while
the second can take C((C)V) suffixes and that some of the suffixes
also have
alternating forms (CVC vs. CCV and VC vs. CV).
>>
How stable are the stems? If they're not very stable, it kind
of reminds me of Potawatomi, the language my wife did her
master's on. In Potawatomi, you have a template:
CCVC(C)VC(C)VC(C)V...
All words want to fit into this template.
So if you have "I walk", you have /nbemse/. "He walks" is
/bmose/. The first word just has an /n-/ prefix, but that
prefix changes the character of the word (the vowels and
where they are) in a predictable fashion.
This sound similar. If, though, the first CVC element is fixed,
that's, I guess, a little bizarre. You'd essentially have a local
domain of variability at the end of a word. All you'd need to
do is determine which stems do it and why. Set them up in
classes; see what you can find. If you have minimal pairs...
manak-tas
manka-ta
...then it might be a little more difficult to explain. In that first
example, I'd say one was a true [a] originally, the other a schwa.
Don't know why the final consonant would disappear. That's a
little bizarre. I mean, it's not affected by the change at all. Why
are the two suffix types (C)V(C) and (C)CV? (Oh, wait, I see...
It's C((C)V)... Let me revise the above):
manak-as
manka-s
There you go. So let's say the top [a] kept because it couldn't
be reduced; the bottom one was a product of schwa deletion,
but then you couldn't have a word that ended in CC, so an
epenthetic vowel was inserted: [a].
Of course, this only holds if the phonology supports it. You
can't just do it templatically.
To me, this seems far from implausible. Perhaps the implementation
makes it look a bit more implausible...?
-David
*******************************************************************
"sunly eleSkarez ygralleryf ydZZixelje je ox2mejze."
"No eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn."
-Jim Morrison
http://dedalvs.free.fr/
Messages in this topic (4)
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9c. Re: CV metathesis Q
Posted by: "ROGER MILLS" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue Aug 19, 2008 2:32 pm ((PDT))
Jeffery Jones wrote:
>
>I've been playing with a sketch where most of the verbs have two basic
>stems, CVCVC and CVCCV, to which a number of affixes are added.
Quick reply-- this sounds like my latest, Prevli, and the (Indonesian)
natlangs Leti and its relatives. Sorry, I haven't put anything about Prevli
up on my website yet; it's still a-borning. There is some work on Leti on
line-- a paper in the Rutgers Optimality Archive by Eliz. Hume comes to
mind, but it follows Optimality Theory and is not quite comprehensible (to
me)...
Historically, in my opinion, the similar metathesis in Leti et al arises
from (1) addition of an echo-vowel to preserve the final C (2) stress
remains on the original penult, and the original ultima V is deleted by
syncope; that produces forms like: MP *kulit, PLet *?ulit-i, Leti ulti
~ulit- (a noun, but it also affects verbs, all forms in fact.) I think
that's pretty much what I modeled Prevli on, except Prevli can also
metathesize initial CV-. (I just like metathesis :-)))))
There's also Rotuman, where CVCV alternates with CVVC.
Mostly,
>I've been working on filling in the specific morphology and on subsequent
>development (sound changes etc.) but recently, I started wondering exactly
>how the two stems came about in the first place. Any ideas?
>
>I should probably mention that the first stem can take (C)V(C) suffixes
>while
>the second can take C((C)V) suffixes and that some of the suffixes also
>have
>alternating forms (CVC vs. CCV and VC vs. CV).
>
>I've been googling and it seems most morphology theorists disapprove of
>this
>sort of thing.
Messages in this topic (4)
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9d. Re: CV metathesis Q
Posted by: "Carl Banks" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue Aug 19, 2008 3:00 pm ((PDT))
Jeffrey Jones wrote:
> I've been playing with a sketch where most of the verbs have two basic
> stems, CVCVC and CVCCV, to which a number of affixes are added. Mostly,
> I've been working on filling in the specific morphology and on subsequent
> development (sound changes etc.) but recently, I started wondering exactly
> how the two stems came about in the first place. Any ideas?
How about elision instead? Stems all started as CVCVCV. In some cases
second V is elided, others third V. Maybe first vowel after the
accented syllable (before the Great Accent Shift, of course) disappears.
That's pretty much how I generate words: start with random CV x N and
apply sound rules designed to yield something that looks sort of Slavic,
with a decidedly nonregular syllable structure. Only for me elision is
not based on accent, instead there are some vowel sounds that disappear,
but they color nearby sounds. (Gee, I wonder if there are any
historical natlang families we know of that have sounds like that?)
Probably this wouldn't work for your case though.
Cool example (pasting Unicode, hope it works):
�YpiHYh�kYHura -> �pixkur
Carl Banks
Messages in this topic (4)
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