There are 17 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1.1. Re: would like to have the PIE Lexicon
From: Lee
1.2. Re: would like to have the PIE Lexicon
From: Tony Harris
1.3. Re: would like to have the PIE Lexicon
From: Sai Emrys
1.4. Re: would like to have the PIE Lexicon
From: Toms Deimonds Barvidis
1.5. Re: would like to have the PIE Lexicon
From: Donald Boozer
1.6. Re: would like to have the PIE Lexicon
From: Donald Boozer
1.7. Re: would like to have the PIE Lexicon
From: Tony Harris
1.8. Re: would like to have the PIE Lexicon
From: Sai Emrys
1.9. Re: would like to have the PIE Lexicon
From: Jan Strasser
1.10. Re: would like to have the PIE Lexicon
From: Donald Boozer
1.11. Re: would like to have the PIE Lexicon
From: Lee
2a. Re: Interrogative Cases
From: Douglas Koller
2b. Re: Interrogative Cases
From: Roger Mills
2c. Re: Interrogative Cases
From: Jörg Rhiemeier
2d. Re: Interrogative Cases
From: Douglas Koller
3a. Are right-branching languages easier to parse?
From: MorphemeAddict
3b. Re: Are right-branching languages easier to parse?
From: Lee
Messages
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1.1. Re: would like to have the PIE Lexicon
Posted by: "Lee" [email protected]
Date: Fri Jul 30, 2010 8:23 am ((PDT))
That would only work for those who have a Yahoo! account and membership in the
Yahoo! conlang group.
My thought was that our esteemed librarian could post it on the downloads
section of the Conlanger's Library. But alas, there is no downloads section....
Lee
--- On Fri, 7/30/10, David McCann <[email protected]> wrote:
From: David McCann <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: would like to have the PIE Lexicon
To: [email protected]
Date: Friday, July 30, 2010, 9:17 AM
On Fri, 2010-07-30 at 14:23 +1030, vii iiix wrote:
> How would one go about making it available in the Conlangers Library?
How about the files section of the conlang Yahoo group site? I know we
can't post messages there nowadays, but can we still upload files?
Messages in this topic (40)
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1.2. Re: would like to have the PIE Lexicon
Posted by: "Tony Harris" [email protected]
Date: Fri Jul 30, 2010 8:24 am ((PDT))
Is it possible to upload files to FrathWiki and perhaps store it there
somehow? Or perhaps on the LCS site?
On 7/30/2010 11:12 AM, Lee wrote:
> That would only work for those who have a Yahoo! account and membership in
> the Yahoo! conlang group.
>
> My thought was that our esteemed librarian could post it on the downloads
> section of the Conlanger's Library. But alas, there is no downloads
> section....
>
> Lee
>
> --- On Fri, 7/30/10, David McCann<[email protected]> wrote:
>
> From: David McCann<[email protected]>
> Subject: Re: would like to have the PIE Lexicon
> To: [email protected]
> Date: Friday, July 30, 2010, 9:17 AM
>
> On Fri, 2010-07-30 at 14:23 +1030, vii iiix wrote:
>
>> How would one go about making it available in the Conlangers Library?
>>
> How about the files section of the conlang Yahoo group site? I know we
> can't post messages there nowadays, but can we still upload files?
>
>
>
>
>
Messages in this topic (40)
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1.3. Re: would like to have the PIE Lexicon
Posted by: "Sai Emrys" [email protected]
Date: Fri Jul 30, 2010 12:32 pm ((PDT))
Anything that's community service like this gets free LCS hosting.
Just requires someone to take point on making the HTML files and
deciding on a subdomain name.
Email [email protected] if you wan to do it.
- Sai
Messages in this topic (40)
________________________________________________________________________
1.4. Re: would like to have the PIE Lexicon
Posted by: "Toms Deimonds Barvidis" [email protected]
Date: Fri Jul 30, 2010 2:06 pm ((PDT))
Totally agree with Patrick.
One for me, too, please :)
[email protected]
Quoting "Patrick Dunn" <[email protected]>:
> Who *wouldn't* want such a thing? I hesitated because I don't want to
> be cluttery, but --
>
> I want one too.
> [email protected]
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jul 29, 2010 at 11:31 AM, Shair A <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Moi aussi, s'il vous plaît:
>> [email protected]
>>
>> On 29 July 2010 09:52, John Campbell <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> I as well.
>>> [email protected]
>>>
>>> On 29-Jul-10, at 11:36 AM, Aidan Grey wrote:
>>>
>>> Yeah, what he said... me too please.
>>>>
>>>> Aidan
>>>> [email protected]
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message ----
>>>>
>>>>> From: Daniel Nielsen <[email protected]>
>>>>> To: [email protected]
>>>>> Sent: Wed, July 28, 2010 2:56:23 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: would like to have the PIE Lexicon
>>>>>
>>>>> ~ ! Please & thx ! ~
>>>>>
>>>>> Dan2
>>>>> [email protected]
>>>>>
>>>>> (I don't see your address in the message, or I'd follow the
>>>>> instructions)
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Jul 26, 2010 at 2:49 AM, Daniel Prohaska
>>>>> <[email protected]>wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi! Thanks for the offer. I'd be very grateful if you could forward a
>>>>>> version of the PIE Lexicon to: [email protected]
>>>>>> Ta,
>>>>>> Dan
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: vii iiix
>>>>>> Sent: Monday, July 26, 2010 2:59 AM
>>>>>> To: [email protected]
>>>>>> Subject: Re: Proto/Modern Language Documentation
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I happen to have a excel doc of the PIE lexicon which some of its forms
>>>>>> in
>>>>>> the daughter languages (like Germanic and Romance) The server won;t let
>>>>>> me
>>>>>> attach the file so if you would like the doc give me your email address
>>>>>>
>>>>> and
>>>>
>>>>> i will happily send it you or anyone. (Just put that you want th PIE
>>>>>>
>>>>> Lexicon
>>>>
>>>>> in the Title bar thing) I got this through a friend of mine so I am not
>>>>>>
>>>>> sure
>>>>
>>>>> where you could downlod it sorry.
>>>>>> Cheers, vii
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> I have stretched ropes from steeple to steeple; garlands from window
> to window; golden chains from star to star, and I dance. --Arthur
> Rimbaud
Messages in this topic (40)
________________________________________________________________________
1.5. Re: would like to have the PIE Lexicon
Posted by: "Donald Boozer" [email protected]
Date: Fri Jul 30, 2010 3:05 pm ((PDT))
I'd be happy to host the PIE Lexicon on the Library website. If you can, you
can
email the file to [email protected] and I'll be happy to upload and make it
accessible. It would be an excellent resource to include on the
http://library.conlang.org/web/lingon.html page.
Don
http://library.conlang.org
________________________________
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2010 13:58:58 -0700
From: Lee <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: would like to have the PIE Lexicon
With so many asking, might it be a good addition to the Conlanger's Library=
?
Lee
--- On Thu, 7/29/10, Patrick Dunn <[email protected]> wrote:
From: Patrick Dunn <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: would like to have the PIE Lexicon
To: [email protected]
Date: Thursday, July 29, 2010, 12:03 PM
Who *wouldn't* want such a thing?=A0 I hesitated because I don't want to
be cluttery, but --
I want one too.
[email protected]
Messages in this topic (40)
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1.6. Re: would like to have the PIE Lexicon
Posted by: "Donald Boozer" [email protected]
Date: Fri Jul 30, 2010 5:48 pm ((PDT))
The PIE Lexicon is now available at The Conlanger's Library at
http://library.conlang.org/web/lingon.html
I've posted the original MS Excel file (supplied by David Peterson) as well as
a
PDF as .zip file for those unable to download Excel.
I may also post in other areas of the Library, but it will continue to be there
on that page.
Don
http://library.conlang.org
________________________________
Messages in this topic (40)
________________________________________________________________________
1.7. Re: would like to have the PIE Lexicon
Posted by: "Tony Harris" [email protected]
Date: Fri Jul 30, 2010 6:06 pm ((PDT))
Excellent! Thank you Donald for hosting, and vii iiix for sharing!
On 07/30/2010 08:46 PM, Donald Boozer wrote:
> The PIE Lexicon is now available at The Conlanger's Library at
> http://library.conlang.org/web/lingon.html
> I've posted the original MS Excel file (supplied by David Peterson) as well
> as a
> PDF as .zip file for those unable to download Excel.
> I may also post in other areas of the Library, but it will continue to be
> there
> on that page.
>
> Don
> http://library.conlang.org
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
>
>
>
>
Messages in this topic (40)
________________________________________________________________________
1.8. Re: would like to have the PIE Lexicon
Posted by: "Sai Emrys" [email protected]
Date: Fri Jul 30, 2010 6:27 pm ((PDT))
I've converted the spreadsheet to a google doc.
It's available here:
https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=tmAtFswP5vXKZv1OGA5m7vw#gid=0
Nothing required other than a web browser. :-)
List view may also be useful:
https://spreadsheets.google.com/lv?key=0AjmetJxi-p0VdG1BdEZzd1A1dlhLWnYxT0dBNW03dnc&f=0
Email me offlist if you want to have edit access.
Enjoy,
- Sai
Messages in this topic (40)
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1.9. Re: would like to have the PIE Lexicon
Posted by: "Jan Strasser" [email protected]
Date: Sat Jul 31, 2010 1:38 am ((PDT))
That file has been compiled by our fellow conlanger Samuel McCabe (
http://wiki.penguindeskjob.com/User:Thegoatman /
http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~sgmccabe ), as a resource for his
Indo-European language Kuma-Koban. It must have taken him months to put
this together, so it would probably be a good idea to give him
appropriate credit at the Library page.
The version of the file that he posted about half a year ago on the ZBB
included a readme notice, which seems to be missing now. It read as follows:
Read Me *****************
Lexicon composited by Samuel âThe Goat Manâ McCabe and best viewed in
DejaVu Sans.
This lexicon is the result of merging four other lists compiled from the
following sources:
JPM The Oxford Introduction to Proto-Indo-European and the
Proto-Indo-European World, J.P. Mallory and D.Q. Adams
IIAL Inherited Indo-Aryan Lexicon, Alexander Lubotsky
Celt Etymological Lexicon of Proto-Celtic, Ranko Masatovic
Beekes Proto-Indo-European Linguistics: an Introduction, R.S.P. Beekes
Cognates come almost entirely from JPM, Grammatical Form refers to
Sanskrit and comes from IIAL, as do notes in {1}, {2} etc. and most
Related Forms. Semantic Domain comes from JPM. PIE reconstructions
prefer JPM.
I have added a very small number of additional notes, which are followed
by (SGM).
Finally, this list is getting complicated enough to be worth moving into
a relational database. Maybe some day.
> Original message:
> Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2010 17:46:23 -0700
> From: Donald Boozer<[email protected]>
> Subject: Re: would like to have the PIE Lexicon
>
> The PIE Lexicon is now available at The Conlanger's Library at
> http://library.conlang.org/web/lingon.html
> I've posted the original MS Excel file (supplied by David Peterson) as well
> as a
> PDF as .zip file for those unable to download Excel.
> I may also post in other areas of the Library, but it will continue to be
> there
> on that page.
>
> Don
> http://library.conlang.org
Messages in this topic (40)
________________________________________________________________________
1.10. Re: would like to have the PIE Lexicon
Posted by: "Donald Boozer" [email protected]
Date: Sat Jul 31, 2010 7:22 am ((PDT))
I was happy to include the PIE Lexicon in the Library's holdings. This is the
kind of resource that seems tailor-made for it :-)
I want to thank Jan Strasser for calling my attention to the Read Me file of
the
Lexicon and it's original attribution. I've included all this information in
the
listing for the file in the Library now and linked to it from its description
at
http://library.conlang.org/web/lingon.html. The Read Me is at
http://library.conlang.org/web/PIE_readme.html.
I've also included links to Sai's Google Doc versions as well.
Don
http://library.conlang.org
________________________________
Messages in this topic (40)
________________________________________________________________________
1.11. Re: would like to have the PIE Lexicon
Posted by: "Lee" [email protected]
Date: Sat Jul 31, 2010 7:43 am ((PDT))
Thanks, Don!
And my mistake for saying the Library doesn't have a downloads section. I
wasn't looking hard enough!
Lee
--- On Sat, 7/31/10, Donald Boozer <[email protected]> wrote:
From: Donald Boozer <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: would like to have the PIE Lexicon
To: [email protected]
Date: Saturday, July 31, 2010, 9:15 AM
I was happy to include the PIE Lexicon in the Library's holdings. This is the
kind of resource that seems tailor-made for it :-)
I want to thank Jan Strasser for calling my attention to the Read Me file of
the
Lexicon and it's original attribution. I've included all this information in
the
listing for the file in the Library now and linked to it from its description
at
http://library.conlang.org/web/lingon.html. The Read Me is at
http://library.conlang.org/web/PIE_readme.html.
I've also included links to Sai's Google Doc versions as well.
Don
http://library.conlang.org
________________________________
Messages in this topic (40)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
2a. Re: Interrogative Cases
Posted by: "Douglas Koller" [email protected]
Date: Fri Jul 30, 2010 8:39 am ((PDT))
----- "Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets" <[email protected]> wrote:
On 30 July 2010 04:28, Roger Mills <[email protected]> wrote:
> > 2. In which the expected answer is 'No':
> > I.e. Steve didn't run to the car did he?
> IIRC French answers #1 with oui/non, #2 with si not oui (i.e. 'that's
> correct') but I'm not sure how it would say "not correct".
Actually, "si" means the opposite of what you think. As an answer to #2, it
would mean "yes he actually did run to the car", in other words "your
expectation is not correct". To say "your expectation is correct", i.e.
"indeed, he didn't run to the car", we simply use "non", although a less
ambiguous answer would be to say "en effet": indeed.
It's easy to remember if you recall that oui/si can only be used with
affirmative answers, and non only with negative answers. The meaning of the
words derives naturally from that.
Géarthnuns divvies this up four ways. Affirmatively:
Are you going?
Shau (yes) I am going.
Glé (no) I'm not going.
Negatively:
Are you not going?
Zhgai (yes) I'm not going.
Gnöi (no) I'm going.
So I think "gnöi" falls into si/doch turf with an Asian overlay.
Kou
Messages in this topic (13)
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2b. Re: Interrogative Cases
Posted by: "Roger Mills" [email protected]
Date: Fri Jul 30, 2010 10:49 am ((PDT))
--- On Fri, 7/30/10, Douglas Koller <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 30 July 2010 04:28, Roger Mills <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> > > 2. In which the expected answer is 'No':
> > > I.e. Steve didn't run to the car did he?
>
> > IIRC French answers #1 with oui/non, #2 with si not
> oui (i.e. 'that's
> > correct') but I'm not sure how it would say "not
> correct".
>
> Actually, "si" means the opposite of what you think. As an
> answer to #2, it
> would mean "yes he actually did run to the car", in other
> words "your
> expectation is not correct". To say "your expectation is
> correct", i.e.
> "indeed, he didn't run to the car", we simply use "non",
> although a less
> ambiguous answer would be to say "en effet": indeed.
Thanks to you and Christophe for reminding me why I must stick to reading and
never never try to speak French or comment on its usages :-))))
Messages in this topic (13)
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2c. Re: Interrogative Cases
Posted by: "Jörg Rhiemeier" [email protected]
Date: Fri Jul 30, 2010 12:49 pm ((PDT))
Hallo!
On Fri, 30 Jul 2010 11:05:25 +0100, R A Brown wrote:
> Roger Mills wrote:
> [snip]
> >
> > In these cases, it seems to me you could use some sort of
> > Emphatic-Interrogative particle that would attach to the
> > relevant subj/verb/obj. (Or, the easy way out, use
> > intonation, as Engl. and many languages do.)
>
> Yep - either of those would work fine.
>
> Welsh uses word order, by fronting the what we want
> confirmed or denied. So let's consider Ben's sentences.
Old Albic does that, too. A yes/no question is marked either by
a clitic _ma_ which is appended to the first constituent of the
sentence, or by intonation alone.
> As many know, Welsh is a VSO language; thus "Steve ran to
> the car" is:
> Rhedodd Steffan i'r car
> Ran Stephen to the car.
So is Old Albic:
Adravasa Thephano aman rorolon.
AOR-run-3SG:A Stephen-AGT the-ALL car-ALL
'Stephen ran to the car.'
> If we want to make this into question, we use prefix the
> sentence with the interrogative particle 'a' which is
> followed by soft mutation of the initial consonant of the
> verb; in speech, 'a' is normally omitted, the soft mutation
> (and voice inflexion) being deemed sufficient, thus:
>
> Redodd Steffan i'r car?
> Did Steve run to the car?
Old Albic:
Adravasa-ma Thephano aman rorolon?
> To answer this we say either 'do' (yes) or 'naddo' (no).
> (Welsh BTW doesn't have simple words corresponding to 'yes'
> and 'know' - it varies according the form of the verb, among
> other things.)
The answer is either _Adasa_ 'He did'='Yes' or _Adasa-na_
'He did not'='No'.
> Now for the focus fronting ones:
>
> ------------------------------
> Ben Scerri wrote:
> [snip]
> > 1. In which the Subject is unknown but expected: Did
> > STEVE run to the car? In this we know someone ran to the
> > car, but we do not know if it was Steve.
>
> Steffan (a) redodd i'r car?
Old Albic:
Thephano-ma adravasa aman rorolon?
> Here _a_ is the relative pronoun (Was it Steve who ...)
> which, like the interrogative particle above, causes soft
> mutation; also, like that particle, it is normally omitted
> in speech, leaving only the soft mutation.
>
> The answer is either 'ie' (yes) or 'nage' (no). This
> applies to all questions that have the focus fronted before
> the verb.
This question is answered the same way as the unfocused one in
Old Albic.
> > 2. In which the Verb is unknown but expected: Did Steve
> > RUN to the car? In this we know Steve went to the car,
> > but we do not know if he was running, walking, or
> > strolling etc.
>
> Rhedeg i'r car (a) wnaeth Steffan?
> [Is it] running to the car [that] Steve did?
>
> Here we use the irregular verb 'gwneud' "to do" and the
> verbal phrase becomes it object and the whole phrase,
> beginning with the verb in the 'verbnoun' form, is fronted
> (rhedeg = "to run/ running").
In Old Albic, this would be:
Dravanth-ma aman rorolon adasa Thephano?
As in Welsh, the first element is a verbal noun.
> > 3. In which the Object is unknown but expected: Did Steve
> > run to the CAR? In this we know Steve ran somewhere, but
> > we do not know if it was the car, the shop etc.
>
> I'r car (y) rhedodd Steffan?
>
> "To the car" is _not_ the object; it is a prepositional
> phrase which answers the question "where?" (Objects will
> answer the question "what?").
Old Albic:
Aman rorolon-ma adravasa Thephano?
> If any thing other than the subject or object is fronted,
> the relative particle is 'y' (or 'yr' before vowels). In
> speech 'y' is normally omitted - but, unlike 'a', it does
> not cause soft mutation - or any other sort of mutation.
Overall, the question syntax of Old Albic is quite similar to
that of Welsh (as Old Albic syntax is generally), as the
examples I give above demonstrate.
--
... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
http://www.joerg-rhiemeier.de/Conlang/index.html
Messages in this topic (13)
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2d. Re: Interrogative Cases
Posted by: "Douglas Koller" [email protected]
Date: Sat Jul 31, 2010 7:31 am ((PDT))
----- "Jörg Rhiemeier" <[email protected]> wrote:
Hallo!
In Old Albic, this would be:
Dravanth-ma aman rorolon adasa Thephano?
Whoa! Needed a neck brace for that whiplash-inducing double take. "Dravnath" is
the Géarthnuns word for the "do/make" verb. Yes, they're spelled differently,
but there I was, idly scrolling through your post, when "Wha?!" :)
Kou
Messages in this topic (13)
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________________________________________________________________________
3a. Are right-branching languages easier to parse?
Posted by: "MorphemeAddict" [email protected]
Date: Fri Jul 30, 2010 11:54 pm ((PDT))
Is the following statement true?
"Right-branching languages are inherently easier to parse for both computers
and humans." -- Rick Morneau, APPENDIX E: Syntax of the Interlingua, *The
Lexical Semantics of a Machine Translation Interlingua*
I asked Rick years ago, but he didn't respond.
stevo
Messages in this topic (2)
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3b. Re: Are right-branching languages easier to parse?
Posted by: "Lee" [email protected]
Date: Sat Jul 31, 2010 7:37 am ((PDT))
My gut reaction is no.
If this were true, wouldn't it be reasonable to expect that most natlangs be
right branching? Yet, according to WALS most natlangs are SOV, and the
Universals Archive indicates OV languages tend to be left-branching. Examples:
Japanese, Tamil, Turkish
Desktop WALS indicates 501 SOV/OSV languages vs 111 VSO/VOS languages.
Computationally, one could argue that left-branching languages are easier to
parse via use of a stack. Another gut reaction: it depends on your approach.
Lee
--- On Sat, 7/31/10, MorphemeAddict <[email protected]> wrote:
From: MorphemeAddict <[email protected]>
Subject: Are right-branching languages easier to parse?
To: [email protected]
Date: Saturday, July 31, 2010, 1:52 AM
Is the following statement true?
"Right-branching languages are inherently easier to parse for both computers
and humans." -- Rick Morneau, APPENDIX E: Syntax of the Interlingua, *The
Lexical Semantics of a Machine Translation Interlingua*
I asked Rick years ago, but he didn't respond.
stevo
Messages in this topic (2)
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