There are 23 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1.1. Re: Most recognised contemporary conlangs
From: Sal Armoniac
1.2. Re: Most recognised contemporary conlangs
From: Herman Miller
2a. Re: Are right-branching languages easier to parse?
From: Micah Johnston
2b. Re: Are right-branching languages easier to parse?
From: Gary Shannon
2c. Re: Are right-branching languages easier to parse?
From: Mechthild Czapp
2d. Re: Are right-branching languages easier to parse?
From: Jim Henry
2e. Re: Are right-branching languages easier to parse?
From: Maxime Papillon
3a. Re: Language Phrase Books
From: Dale McCreery
4a. Re: TRANSLATION: A Single Volume Bound by Love
From: Mechthild Czapp
4b. Re: TRANSLATION: A Single Volume Bound by Love
From: Daniel Bowman
4c. Re: TRANSLATION: A Single Volume Bound by Love
From: Mechthild Czapp
5a. Does anyone use the "-" symbol in his/her conlang?
From: Daniel Bowman
5b. Re: Does anyone use the "-" symbol in his/her conlang?
From: Mechthild Czapp
5c. Re: Does anyone use the "-" symbol in his/her conlang?
From: Eric Christopherson
5d. Re: Does anyone use the "-" symbol in his/her conlang?
From: MorphemeAddict
5e. Re: Does anyone use the "-" symbol in his/her conlang?
From: Adam Walker
5f. Re: Does anyone use the "-" symbol in his/her conlang?
From: Lee
5g. Re: Does anyone use the "-" symbol in his/her conlang?
From: MorphemeAddict
5h. Re: Does anyone use the "-" symbol in his/her conlang?
From: Roger Mills
5i. Re: Does anyone use the "-" symbol in his/her conlang?
From: Matthew Nichols
5j. Re: Does anyone use the "-" symbol in his/her conlang?
From: Samuel Stutter
6a. New SpecGram: A Primer in SF Xenolinguistics
From: David Peterson
6b. Re: New SpecGram: A Primer in SF Xenolinguistics
From: Krista Casada
Messages
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1.1. Re: Most recognised contemporary conlangs
Posted by: "Sal Armoniac" [email protected]
Date: Mon Aug 2, 2010 9:34 am ((PDT))
Okuna = Tokana. I was corrected. And hey, Teonaht has its feelings hurt.
I guess everyone has their fifteen minutes of fame, though, and I've been
away from conlang for years as I battle with new projects. Lately, I've been
making animated videos in a virtual world which appeals to me for the very
same reason that inventing a language does-- its, well, "virtuality." The
latest machinima I made ("machine-cinema: a video capture in real time using
virtual reality avatars) has for its accompaniment "Amo ro hsera hdar
mantes?" my oldest Teonaht song about imaginery people. Yry vylavaht!!!
Yay! I can see this as a new way to express Teonaht textually, graphically,
narratively and of course verbally. It's a lot harder, though, than drawing
pictures and puttng up a website which I've sadly neglected. Gotta get back
to that.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XZlF-D4Ay4
The translations on screen are merely "approximate." ;)
On Tue, Apr 27, 2010 at 6:23 AM, David Peterson <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Apr 27, 2010, at 2◊03 AM, Peter Bleackley wrote:
>
> > Tokana, Láadan, Kamakawi and Dritok by 2 people each.
> > Tepa, Lojban, Wenedyk, Sambahsa and gja-zym-byn by 2 people each.
>
>
> There a difference between the 2's here?
>
> ObConlang: Just had a thought where there are two words for
> "two": One inclusive, and one exclusive. So, for example, two
> random people that happen to be standing next to one another
> would be "two-ex people", while two related individuals (brother
> and sister, spouse and spouse, etc.) would be "two-inc people".
>
> Oh. I guess this could apply to all numbers, huh...? Anyway, just
> an idea.
>
> -David
> *******************************************************************
> "Sunlü eleškarez ügrallerüf üjjixelye ye oxömeyze."
> "No eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn."
>
> -Jim Morrison
>
> http://dedalvs.com/
>
> LCS Member Since 2007
> http://conlang.org/
>
Messages in this topic (27)
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1.2. Re: Most recognised contemporary conlangs
Posted by: "Herman Miller" [email protected]
Date: Mon Aug 2, 2010 8:59 pm ((PDT))
Sal Armoniac wrote:
> Okuna = Tokana. I was corrected. And hey, Teonaht has its feelings hurt.
> I guess everyone has their fifteen minutes of fame, though, and I've been
> away from conlang for years as I battle with new projects. Lately, I've been
> making animated videos in a virtual world which appeals to me for the very
> same reason that inventing a language does-- its, well, "virtuality." The
> latest machinima I made ("machine-cinema: a video capture in real time using
> virtual reality avatars) has for its accompaniment "Amo ro hsera hdar
> mantes?" my oldest Teonaht song about imaginery people. Yry vylavaht!!!
> Yay! I can see this as a new way to express Teonaht textually, graphically,
> narratively and of course verbally. It's a lot harder, though, than drawing
> pictures and puttng up a website which I've sadly neglected. Gotta get back
> to that.
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XZlF-D4Ay4
>
> The translations on screen are merely "approximate." ;)
I remember that song! I can see the appeal of machinima although it's
not something I have any experience with. I really ought to get back to
my web site and my languages one of these days as well. It just seems
like I'm always too busy, and when I do get time for more creative
things I end up playing Rock Band instead.
Messages in this topic (27)
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2a. Re: Are right-branching languages easier to parse?
Posted by: "Micah Johnston" [email protected]
Date: Mon Aug 2, 2010 9:40 am ((PDT))
Programming languages are languages in the same sense as natural languages
are, albeit with a different purpose, but at least in my experience, the
brain is not used in the same way as it is for natural languages. I doubt
you could find a programmer who could fluently speak an entirely new program
in a programming language. To write in a programming language, you have to
think about the entire structure to make sure it fits together and has no
errors, while natural languages are optimized for being spoken linearly,
only thinking about little bits at a time, and little errors are acceptable.
Regarding brains and quantum mechanics: I see absolutely no reason to
believe that the brain relies on quantum effects unless this phenomenon has
actually been observed--which, as far as I know, it has not--except for
wishful thinking, wanting to believe that the brain's free will cannot be
predicted. However, I don't understand this wishful thinking either, because
it's simply chalking up the brain's observed free will to the inherent
randomness of the universe, and not to what seems random unless you know
everything about every particle. Regarding the brain using quantum effects
making it impossible to "upload" a brain to a computer, please explain why
the computer couldn't just simulate the quantum effects, or even better, why
one couldn't make a computer that actually uses the same quantum effects
that the brain supposedly does.
Messages in this topic (21)
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2b. Re: Are right-branching languages easier to parse?
Posted by: "Gary Shannon" [email protected]
Date: Mon Aug 2, 2010 11:28 am ((PDT))
As for quantum effects in the human brain, here are some references to
published papers on the subject:
overview of the different theories: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mind
Arguing in favor of the theory:
http://www.quantumbrain.org/
on the The Penrose-Hamerof model:
http://www.quantumconsciousness.org/penrose-hameroff/quantumcomputation.html
And arguing against the theory:
http://cogsci.uwaterloo.ca/Articles/quantum.pdf
The arguments for both sides seem compelling, so I can't decide either
way, but in my opinion it certainly remains a possibility considering
how little we actually understand about the nature of consciousness
and intelligence.
--gary
On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 9:34 AM, Micah Johnston
<[email protected]> wrote:
> Programming languages are languages in the same sense as natural languages
..snip..
>
> Regarding brains and quantum mechanics: I see absolutely no reason to
> believe that the brain relies on quantum effects unless this phenomenon has
> actually been observed--which, as far as I know, it has not--except for
> wishful thinking, wanting to believe that the brain's free will cannot be
> predicted. However, I don't understand this wishful thinking either, because
> it's simply chalking up the brain's observed free will to the inherent
> randomness of the universe, and not to what seems random unless you know
> everything about every particle. Regarding the brain using quantum effects
> making it impossible to "upload" a brain to a computer, please explain why
> the computer couldn't just simulate the quantum effects, or even better, why
> one couldn't make a computer that actually uses the same quantum effects
> that the brain supposedly does.
>
Messages in this topic (21)
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2c. Re: Are right-branching languages easier to parse?
Posted by: "Mechthild Czapp" [email protected]
Date: Mon Aug 2, 2010 2:36 pm ((PDT))
Jiarks... Here am I reading CONLANG-postings and stumble over my least-favorite
fallacy.
> Von: "Jörg Rhiemeier" <[email protected]>
> An: [email protected]
> Betreff: Re: Are right-branching languages easier to parse?
> I found this idea in a book written by a physicist and a psychologist,
> _Der kreative Kosmos_ by Thomas and Brigitte Görnitz. But it is
> obvious. Classical systems are deterministic (even if it can become
> practically impossible to predict their behaviour) and therefore
> cannot have free will. Quantum systems are not deterministic.
>
Unfortunately, neurons are 3 orders of magnitude too big to be ruled by these
laws. They can be considered classical systems.
Even if they were not. The behaviour would not be free, it would be random.
There is a big difference. I never understood why random behaviour would even
be something you would like to express.
The idea of free will is flawed given a materialistic view of the world. That
does not mean that the actions of a specific human being can be predicted in
any near future, but if Laplace's Demon existed, it probably could.
Also, just googling for these authors made my quack-meter peak. They seem to be
involved in a lot of esoteric ... things...
http://goernitz.de/forschung/forschung_vortraege.htm
--
Sanja'xen mi'lanja'kynha ,mi'la'ohix'ta jilih, nka.
My life would be easy if it was not so hard!
GMX DSL: Internet-, Telefon- und Handy-Flat ab 19,99 EUR/mtl.
Bis zu 150 EUR Startguthaben inklusive! http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/dsl
Messages in this topic (21)
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2d. Re: Are right-branching languages easier to parse?
Posted by: "Jim Henry" [email protected]
Date: Mon Aug 2, 2010 5:43 pm ((PDT))
On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 7:18 AM, BPJ <[email protected]> wrote:
> A language, thus: a rather unnaturalistic conlang,
> so the divide isn't _programming language_ vs.
> _human language_ or even _programming language_
> vs. _natlang_, but _non-naturalistic language_ vs.
> _naturalistic language_. Of course the average
> computer scientist will not realize these
> distinctions, because they aren't a conlanger.
And maybe "general-purpose language" vs. "special-purpose language",
the former including all natlangs and many conlangs (perhaps most of
the well-developed ones?), the latter including all programming
languages, many engelangs, and a subset of artlangs (perhaps including
the sketchy ones used as supporting material for a book or film but
not fully developed as works of art in their own right -- e.g., Vulcan
in contrast to Klingon, or GRRM's Dothraki vs. David Peterson's
Dothraki).
--
Jim Henry
http://www.pobox.com/~jimhenry/
Messages in this topic (21)
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2e. Re: Are right-branching languages easier to parse?
Posted by: "Maxime Papillon" [email protected]
Date: Mon Aug 2, 2010 6:45 pm ((PDT))
I agree with you throughout here for the reasons you expressed as well as
others, but maybe Conlang isn't the best place to argue over philosophical
interpretations of physics -however interresting of a subject- as this
discussion is gradually straying from the original one about language parsing.
Or at least, it could be labeled as off-topic.
Maxime
> Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2010 23:29:44 +0200
> From: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: Are right-branching languages easier to parse?
> To: [email protected]
>
> Jiarks... Here am I reading CONLANG-postings and stumble over my
> least-favorite fallacy.
>
> > Von: "Jörg Rhiemeier" <[email protected]>
> > An: [email protected]
> > Betreff: Re: Are right-branching languages easier to parse?
>
> > I found this idea in a book written by a physicist and a psychologist,
> > _Der kreative Kosmos_ by Thomas and Brigitte Görnitz. But it is
> > obvious. Classical systems are deterministic (even if it can become
> > practically impossible to predict their behaviour) and therefore
> > cannot have free will. Quantum systems are not deterministic.
> >
>
> Unfortunately, neurons are 3 orders of magnitude too big to be ruled by these
> laws. They can be considered classical systems.
> Even if they were not. The behaviour would not be free, it would be random.
> There is a big difference. I never understood why random behaviour would even
> be something you would like to express.
>
> The idea of free will is flawed given a materialistic view of the world. That
> does not mean that the actions of a specific human being can be predicted in
> any near future, but if Laplace's Demon existed, it probably could.
>
> Also, just googling for these authors made my quack-meter peak. They seem to
> be involved in a lot of esoteric ... things...
> http://goernitz.de/forschung/forschung_vortraege.htm
>
>
> --
> Sanja'xen mi'lanja'kynha ,mi'la'ohix'ta jilih, nka.
>
> My life would be easy if it was not so hard!
>
>
>
> GMX DSL: Internet-, Telefon- und Handy-Flat ab 19,99 EUR/mtl.
> Bis zu 150 EUR Startguthaben inklusive! http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/dsl
Messages in this topic (21)
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3a. Re: Language Phrase Books
Posted by: "Dale McCreery" [email protected]
Date: Mon Aug 2, 2010 10:58 am ((PDT))
I used to collect soviet era foreign language textbooks. Lots of gems,
including an essay in romanian talking about how "it is the citizen of the
Soviet Union who has turned the utopia of yesterday into the reality of
today". However, the phrase I like the most was told to me second hand by
an old soldier who served in Latvia. His Latvian phrasebook included the
question "What is the best way to the centre of the city by A) foot B)
tank?" and "Where is the mayor? A: captured, B: killed, C: missing".
Dale
Messages in this topic (10)
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4a. Re: TRANSLATION: A Single Volume Bound by Love
Posted by: "Mechthild Czapp" [email protected]
Date: Mon Aug 2, 2010 2:10 pm ((PDT))
> Von: Daniel Bowman <[email protected]>
> An: [email protected]
> Betreff: TRANSLATION: A Single Volume Bound by Love
> My much delayed yearly reading of Dante has finally commenced, and I
> thought
> I would post as a translation challenge one of my favorite verses. I will
> give John Ciardi's translation for those like me who don't know Italian,
> as
> well as the original Italian text (from Wikiquotes).
>
> English:
>
> I saw within Its depth how it conceives
> all things in a single volume bound by Love
> of which the universe is the scattered leaves.
>
Without any context, these are just letters to me...
--
Sanja'xen mi'lanja'kynha ,mi'la'ohix'ta jilih, nka.
My life would be easy if it was not so hard!
GMX DSL: Internet-, Telefon- und Handy-Flat ab 19,99 EUR/mtl.
Bis zu 150 EUR Startguthaben inklusive! http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/dsl
Messages in this topic (4)
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4b. Re: TRANSLATION: A Single Volume Bound by Love
Posted by: "Daniel Bowman" [email protected]
Date: Mon Aug 2, 2010 7:48 pm ((PDT))
>
> Without any context, these are just letters to me...
>
>
Granted. I expect we have somewhat different conlang philosophies: Angosey
thrives on ambiguity, etc. I use it to co-opt intriguing sounding phrases
into my own language, and often give them a different spin than their
original. Thus, I might translate the above verse with no knowledge of
context, just to see how it would come out. In this case, it requires
deciding what "It" and "Itself" mean...
The grammar of this particular verse intrigued me also because of its
challenge to Angosey structure.
If you are interested, it is Canto XIII, lines 85-87. Here's the Gutenberg
project's translation (slightly different from the other one I posted):
And I remember that I was more bold
On this account to bear, so that I joined
My aspect with the Glory Infinite.
O grace abundant, by which I presumed
To fix my sight upon the Light Eternal,
So that the seeing I consumed therein!
I saw that in its depth far down is lying
Bound up with love together in one volume,
What through the universe in leaves is scattered;
Substance, and accident, and their operations,
All interfused together in such wise
That what I speak of is one simple light.
Messages in this topic (4)
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4c. Re: TRANSLATION: A Single Volume Bound by Love
Posted by: "Mechthild Czapp" [email protected]
Date: Mon Aug 2, 2010 8:07 pm ((PDT))
> Von: Daniel Bowman <[email protected]>
> An: [email protected]
> Betreff: Re: TRANSLATION: A Single Volume Bound by Love
> >
> > Without any context, these are just letters to me...
> >
> >
> Granted. I expect we have somewhat different conlang philosophies:
> Angosey
> thrives on ambiguity, etc. I use it to co-opt intriguing sounding phrases
> into my own language, and often give them a different spin than their
> original. Thus, I might translate the above verse with no knowledge of
> context, just to see how it would come out. In this case, it requires
> deciding what "It" and "Itself" mean...
>
Rejistanian does not have an impersonal it, so this is difficult to translate.
In Rejistanian, it is the sky, which rains and instead of "It does not matter"
they say "this does not matter".
Also, the vocabulary occasionally separates a semantic domain differently than
German or English does. This means that ambiguity in rejistanian works
differently than in English. So context is required not to stray from the
meaning too far. Poetry is hard to translate between English and German for me
and into Rejistanian, it is far worse.
> I saw that in its depth far down is lying
> Bound up with love together in one volume,
> What through the universe in leaves is scattered;
This is really hard since it requires a complete re-arrangement of the
sentence. Xe'la'mesu ,iriku'het'ny jatni'het'sy min'rala'helku vasina'tan'sy
reja kemas'het mje, het nene'tan'ra anik.
I am not sure whether this is anywhere near the original though since I still
understand the original only tenously. The rejistanian says: I saw that the by
pages/leaves distributed ones are linked by love in the manner of one
version/edition/volume, in the low (spiritual) light.
Poetry is not my favorite form of art...
> The grammar of this particular verse intrigued me also because of its
> challenge to Angosey structure.
>
> If you are interested, it is Canto XIII, lines 85-87. Here's the
> Gutenberg
> project's translation (slightly different from the other one I posted):
>
> And I remember that I was more bold
> On this account to bear, so that I joined
> My aspect with the Glory Infinite.
>
> O grace abundant, by which I presumed
> To fix my sight upon the Light Eternal,
> So that the seeing I consumed therein!
>
> I saw that in its depth far down is lying
> Bound up with love together in one volume,
> What through the universe in leaves is scattered;
>
> Substance, and accident, and their operations,
> All interfused together in such wise
> That what I speak of is one simple light.
--
Sanja'xen mi'lanja'kynha ,mi'la'ohix'ta jilih, nka.
My life would be easy if it was not so hard!
Neu: GMX De-Mail - Einfach wie E-Mail, sicher wie ein Brief!
Jetzt De-Mail-Adresse reservieren: http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/demail
Messages in this topic (4)
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5a. Does anyone use the "-" symbol in his/her conlang?
Posted by: "Daniel Bowman" [email protected]
Date: Mon Aug 2, 2010 7:25 pm ((PDT))
All,
First, the question:
Does anyone use the minus sign "-" as a symbol in his or her conlang?
Second, why I am asking:
Some time ago I asked for suggestions on a good programming language to use
in order to build an interactive dictionary for my conlang. This dictionary
will eventually be released to our community for others to use.
I have settled on using Python, since I am comfortable enough in it to
achieve what I want. I just started writing a draft of the search engine.
The search engine will be an interactive shell in which the user will type
commands. For example:
-k love
would search the dictionary for the English keyword "love"
-w zakayro
would search the dictionary for the conlang word "zakayro"
The program will differentiate options (those statements starting with "-")
from searches or other commands (those statements not starting with "-").
This will work fine UNLESS someone has a conlang in which they use the "-"
symbol...if that were the case, the program would interpret words in this
conlang as being search options as opposed to actual search criteria.
Here's an example of how the program works so far. I'm searching my Angosey
dictionary for words associated with the English word "illusion". The "-k"
option denotes KEYWORD, that is, the English word I am trying to find a
match for. I can also search "-w" (Angosey word) and "-g" (grammar). The
dictionary returns three results, and gives information on each.
>>-k illusion
illusion
WORD:
adra
DEFINITION:
1. To appear as. 2. To create an illusion with the intent to deceive. 3.
To put on the appearance of love. 4. To love.
COMMENTS:
Came into existence during the transition between Althalethian Larath and
Althalethian Esyevath
***********************
WORD:
al dantayethreya
DEFINITION:
1. The feeling of dreaming while awake, or an experience of lucid dreaming.
COMMENTS:
Used a lot during Junior year
***********************
WORD:
al edreth
DEFINITION:
1. An illusion made specifically to deceive.
COMMENTS:
***********************
Any other comments or critiques at this preliminary stage are most welcome.
I plan on releasing the finished product to the CONLANG list whenever it's
done.
Messages in this topic (10)
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5b. Re: Does anyone use the "-" symbol in his/her conlang?
Posted by: "Mechthild Czapp" [email protected]
Date: Mon Aug 2, 2010 7:40 pm ((PDT))
-------- Original-Nachricht --------
> Datum: Mon, 2 Aug 2010 22:23:03 -0400
> Von: Daniel Bowman <[email protected]>
> An: [email protected]
> Betreff: Does anyone use the "-" symbol in his/her conlang?
> All,
>
> First, the question:
>
> Does anyone use the minus sign "-" as a symbol in his or her conlang?
>
I use the - in certain situations related to colloquial speech: Namely to
indicate that an abbreviation does not use the beginning of the term. This
however only happens to place names, ie: -tani for rejis_tani_ha (the
underscores just indicates where the word appears), -kali for het_kali_ and
-jara for Naja_jara_.
It is not really important in the language and appears seldomly.
> Second, why I am asking:
>
> Some time ago I asked for suggestions on a good programming language to
> use
> in order to build an interactive dictionary for my conlang. This
> dictionary
> will eventually be released to our community for others to use.
>
> I have settled on using Python, since I am comfortable enough in it to
> achieve what I want. I just started writing a draft of the search engine.
> The search engine will be an interactive shell in which the user will type
> commands. For example:
>
> -k love
>
> would search the dictionary for the English keyword "love"
>
> -w zakayro
>
> would search the dictionary for the conlang word "zakayro"
>
> The program will differentiate options (those statements starting with
> "-")
> from searches or other commands (those statements not starting with "-").
> This will work fine UNLESS someone has a conlang in which they use the "-"
> symbol...if that were the case, the program would interpret words in this
> conlang as being search options as opposed to actual search criteria.
>
> Here's an example of how the program works so far. I'm searching my
> Angosey
> dictionary for words associated with the English word "illusion". The
> "-k"
> option denotes KEYWORD, that is, the English word I am trying to find a
> match for. I can also search "-w" (Angosey word) and "-g" (grammar). The
> dictionary returns three results, and gives information on each.
>
> >>-k illusion
> illusion
> WORD:
> adra
>
> DEFINITION:
> 1. To appear as. 2. To create an illusion with the intent to deceive.
> 3.
> To put on the appearance of love. 4. To love.
>
> COMMENTS:
> Came into existence during the transition between Althalethian Larath and
> Althalethian Esyevath
> ***********************
> WORD:
> al dantayethreya
>
> DEFINITION:
> 1. The feeling of dreaming while awake, or an experience of lucid
> dreaming.
>
> COMMENTS:
> Used a lot during Junior year
> ***********************
> WORD:
> al edreth
>
> DEFINITION:
> 1. An illusion made specifically to deceive.
>
> COMMENTS:
>
> ***********************
>
> Any other comments or critiques at this preliminary stage are most
> welcome.
> I plan on releasing the finished product to the CONLANG list whenever
> it's
> done.
Sounds neat! :)
--
Sanja'xen mi'lanja'kynha ,mi'la'ohix'ta jilih, nka.
My life would be easy if it was not so hard!
GMX DSL: Internet-, Telefon- und Handy-Flat ab 19,99 EUR/mtl.
Bis zu 150 EUR Startguthaben inklusive! http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/dsl
Messages in this topic (10)
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5c. Re: Does anyone use the "-" symbol in his/her conlang?
Posted by: "Eric Christopherson" [email protected]
Date: Mon Aug 2, 2010 7:53 pm ((PDT))
On Aug 2, 2010, at 9:23 PM, Daniel Bowman wrote:
> All,
>
> First, the question:
>
> Does anyone use the minus sign "-" as a symbol in his or her conlang?
[...]
>
> The program will differentiate options (those statements starting with "-")
> from searches or other commands (those statements not starting with "-").
> This will work fine UNLESS someone has a conlang in which they use the "-"
> symbol...if that were the case, the program would interpret words in this
> conlang as being search options as opposed to actual search criteria.
I think that whatever character you used for options, there would always be the
possibility of clashing with a conlang's orthography (or transcription). Maybe
you could allow it to be escaped, e.g. \-.
What kinds of "searches or other commands" would be executed when no option is
presented?
Messages in this topic (10)
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5d. Re: Does anyone use the "-" symbol in his/her conlang?
Posted by: "MorphemeAddict" [email protected]
Date: Mon Aug 2, 2010 7:58 pm ((PDT))
All of Rick Morneau's interlanguages use a hyphen in the phrases for
'tomorrow', 'yesterday', 'last night', and 'today'. The hyphen is not a part
of the language, but it is used in the lexicon.
I don't use the hyphen in those words in Saweli, but I do use it to separate
part-of-speech endings from following endings.
stevo
On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 10:23 PM, Daniel Bowman <[email protected]>wrote:
> All,
>
> First, the question:
>
> Does anyone use the minus sign "-" as a symbol in his or her conlang?
>
> Second, why I am asking:
>
> Some time ago I asked for suggestions on a good programming language to use
> in order to build an interactive dictionary for my conlang. This
> dictionary
> will eventually be released to our community for others to use.
>
> I have settled on using Python, since I am comfortable enough in it to
> achieve what I want. I just started writing a draft of the search engine.
> The search engine will be an interactive shell in which the user will type
> commands. For example:
>
> -k love
>
> would search the dictionary for the English keyword "love"
>
> -w zakayro
>
> would search the dictionary for the conlang word "zakayro"
>
> The program will differentiate options (those statements starting with "-")
> from searches or other commands (those statements not starting with "-").
> This will work fine UNLESS someone has a conlang in which they use the "-"
> symbol...if that were the case, the program would interpret words in this
> conlang as being search options as opposed to actual search criteria.
>
> Here's an example of how the program works so far. I'm searching my
> Angosey
> dictionary for words associated with the English word "illusion". The "-k"
> option denotes KEYWORD, that is, the English word I am trying to find a
> match for. I can also search "-w" (Angosey word) and "-g" (grammar). The
> dictionary returns three results, and gives information on each.
>
> >>-k illusion
> illusion
> WORD:
> adra
>
> DEFINITION:
> 1. To appear as. 2. To create an illusion with the intent to deceive.
> 3.
> To put on the appearance of love. 4. To love.
>
> COMMENTS:
> Came into existence during the transition between Althalethian Larath and
> Althalethian Esyevath
> ***********************
> WORD:
> al dantayethreya
>
> DEFINITION:
> 1. The feeling of dreaming while awake, or an experience of lucid
> dreaming.
>
> COMMENTS:
> Used a lot during Junior year
> ***********************
> WORD:
> al edreth
>
> DEFINITION:
> 1. An illusion made specifically to deceive.
>
> COMMENTS:
>
> ***********************
>
> Any other comments or critiques at this preliminary stage are most welcome.
> I plan on releasing the finished product to the CONLANG list whenever it's
> done.
>
Messages in this topic (10)
________________________________________________________________________
5e. Re: Does anyone use the "-" symbol in his/her conlang?
Posted by: "Adam Walker" [email protected]
Date: Mon Aug 2, 2010 8:04 pm ((PDT))
I use it in Carrajina as a bit of punctuation. My phone keypad does
not have a dash so imagine the tilde is a dash. C~a is the
abbreviation for Carraxa or Carrajina. T~a is likewise for Talosa.
Adam
On 8/2/10, Daniel Bowman <[email protected]> wrote:
> All,
>
> First, the question:
>
> Does anyone use the minus sign "-" as a symbol in his or her conlang?
>
> Second, why I am asking:
>
> Some time ago I asked for suggestions on a good programming language to use
> in order to build an interactive dictionary for my conlang. This dictionary
> will eventually be released to our community for others to use.
>
> I have settled on using Python, since I am comfortable enough in it to
> achieve what I want. I just started writing a draft of the search engine.
> The search engine will be an interactive shell in which the user will type
> commands. For example:
>
> -k love
>
> would search the dictionary for the English keyword "love"
>
> -w zakayro
>
> would search the dictionary for the conlang word "zakayro"
>
> The program will differentiate options (those statements starting with "-")
> from searches or other commands (those statements not starting with "-").
> This will work fine UNLESS someone has a conlang in which they use the "-"
> symbol...if that were the case, the program would interpret words in this
> conlang as being search options as opposed to actual search criteria.
>
> Here's an example of how the program works so far. I'm searching my Angosey
> dictionary for words associated with the English word "illusion". The "-k"
> option denotes KEYWORD, that is, the English word I am trying to find a
> match for. I can also search "-w" (Angosey word) and "-g" (grammar). The
> dictionary returns three results, and gives information on each.
>
>>>-k illusion
> illusion
> WORD:
> adra
>
> DEFINITION:
> 1. To appear as. 2. To create an illusion with the intent to deceive. 3.
> To put on the appearance of love. 4. To love.
>
> COMMENTS:
> Came into existence during the transition between Althalethian Larath and
> Althalethian Esyevath
> ***********************
> WORD:
> al dantayethreya
>
> DEFINITION:
> 1. The feeling of dreaming while awake, or an experience of lucid dreaming.
>
> COMMENTS:
> Used a lot during Junior year
> ***********************
> WORD:
> al edreth
>
> DEFINITION:
> 1. An illusion made specifically to deceive.
>
> COMMENTS:
>
> ***********************
>
> Any other comments or critiques at this preliminary stage are most welcome.
> I plan on releasing the finished product to the CONLANG list whenever it's
> done.
>
Messages in this topic (10)
________________________________________________________________________
5f. Re: Does anyone use the "-" symbol in his/her conlang?
Posted by: "Lee" [email protected]
Date: Mon Aug 2, 2010 8:08 pm ((PDT))
--- On Mon, 8/2/10, Eric Christopherson <[email protected]> wrote:
From: Eric Christopherson <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Does anyone use the "-" symbol in his/her conlang?
To: [email protected]
Date: Monday, August 2, 2010, 9:51 PM
On Aug 2, 2010, at 9:23 PM, Daniel Bowman wrote:
> All,
>
> First, the question:
>
> Does anyone use the minus sign "-" as a symbol in his or her conlang?
[...]
>
> The program will differentiate options (those statements starting with "-")
> from searches or other commands (those statements not starting with "-").
> This will work fine UNLESS someone has a conlang in which they use the "-"
> symbol...if that were the case, the program would interpret words in this
> conlang as being search options as opposed to actual search criteria.
I think that whatever character you used for options, there would always be the
possibility of clashing with a conlang's orthography (or transcription). Maybe
you could allow it to be escaped, e.g. \-.
What kinds of "searches or other commands" would be executed when no option is
presented?
- - - -
Another way to handle this is to provide an option to change the hyphen to
another character.
Many SQL dialects allow something similar when creating a stored procedure. An
example for Firebird can be found at http://www.firebirdfaq.org/faq78/ (Note
that in this case it is the terminating character that is changed, but the idea
is the same.)
Lee
Messages in this topic (10)
________________________________________________________________________
5g. Re: Does anyone use the "-" symbol in his/her conlang?
Posted by: "MorphemeAddict" [email protected]
Date: Mon Aug 2, 2010 8:20 pm ((PDT))
In general it's probably best to assume that either some conlang already
does use a hyphen or one will in the future, and allow for it.
stevo
On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 11:06 PM, Lee <[email protected]> wrote:
> --- On Mon, 8/2/10, Eric Christopherson <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> From: Eric Christopherson <[email protected]>
> Subject: Re: Does anyone use the "-" symbol in his/her conlang?
> To: [email protected]
> Date: Monday, August 2, 2010, 9:51 PM
>
> On Aug 2, 2010, at 9:23 PM, Daniel Bowman wrote:
>
> > All,
> >
> > First, the question:
> >
> > Does anyone use the minus sign "-" as a symbol in his or her conlang?
> [...]
> >
> > The program will differentiate options (those statements starting with
> "-")
> > from searches or other commands (those statements not starting with "-").
> > This will work fine UNLESS someone has a conlang in which they use the
> "-"
> > symbol...if that were the case, the program would interpret words in this
> > conlang as being search options as opposed to actual search criteria.
>
> I think that whatever character you used for options, there would always be
> the possibility of clashing with a conlang's orthography (or transcription).
> Maybe you could allow it to be escaped, e.g. \-.
>
> What kinds of "searches or other commands" would be executed when no option
> is presented?
> - - - -
>
> Another way to handle this is to provide an option to change the hyphen to
> another character.
>
> Many SQL dialects allow something similar when creating a stored procedure.
> An example for Firebird can be found at
> http://www.firebirdfaq.org/faq78/(Note that in this case it is the
> terminating character that is changed, but
> the idea is the same.)
>
> Lee
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Messages in this topic (10)
________________________________________________________________________
5h. Re: Does anyone use the "-" symbol in his/her conlang?
Posted by: "Roger Mills" [email protected]
Date: Mon Aug 2, 2010 10:00 pm ((PDT))
--- On Mon, 8/2/10, MorphemeAddict <[email protected]> wrote:
> In general it's probably best to
> assume that either some conlang already
> does use a hyphen or one will in the future, and allow for
> it.
In my Kash-English dictionary, the hyphen separates some compounds and full
reduplications. In Kash script, a hyphen char. represents the comma, so it
appears at the end of words, and probably isn't relevant to the question, and
I'm not sure the other use is relevant either :-)))
Messages in this topic (10)
________________________________________________________________________
5i. Re: Does anyone use the "-" symbol in his/her conlang?
Posted by: "Matthew Nichols" [email protected]
Date: Mon Aug 2, 2010 10:25 pm ((PDT))
Why not "-k -word" or "-k word-play"? If -k has suboptions, you might
need to escape the first one ("-k \-word" perhaps? Then "\-word" would
be "-k \\-word" or "-k \\\-word"). You could also have it quoted («-k
"-word"») and *NIX has "--" ("-k -- -word"). And if you're doing it in
the style of getopt(), "-k -word" should be fine, since "-k" always has
an argument (right?).
On 8/2/2010 7:23 PM, Daniel Bowman wrote:
> All,
>
> First, the question:
>
> Does anyone use the minus sign "-" as a symbol in his or her conlang?
>
> Second, why I am asking:
>
> Some time ago I asked for suggestions on a good programming language to use
> in order to build an interactive dictionary for my conlang. This dictionary
> will eventually be released to our community for others to use.
>
> I have settled on using Python, since I am comfortable enough in it to
> achieve what I want. I just started writing a draft of the search engine.
> The search engine will be an interactive shell in which the user will type
> commands. For example:
>
> -k love
>
> would search the dictionary for the English keyword "love"
>
> -w zakayro
>
> would search the dictionary for the conlang word "zakayro"
>
> The program will differentiate options (those statements starting with "-")
> from searches or other commands (those statements not starting with "-").
> This will work fine UNLESS someone has a conlang in which they use the "-"
> symbol...if that were the case, the program would interpret words in this
> conlang as being search options as opposed to actual search criteria.
>
> Here's an example of how the program works so far. I'm searching my Angosey
> dictionary for words associated with the English word "illusion". The "-k"
> option denotes KEYWORD, that is, the English word I am trying to find a
> match for. I can also search "-w" (Angosey word) and "-g" (grammar). The
> dictionary returns three results, and gives information on each.
>
>>> -k illusion
> illusion
> WORD:
> adra
>
> DEFINITION:
> 1. To appear as. 2. To create an illusion with the intent to deceive. 3.
> To put on the appearance of love. 4. To love.
>
> COMMENTS:
> Came into existence during the transition between Althalethian Larath and
> Althalethian Esyevath
> ***********************
> WORD:
> al dantayethreya
>
> DEFINITION:
> 1. The feeling of dreaming while awake, or an experience of lucid dreaming.
>
> COMMENTS:
> Used a lot during Junior year
> ***********************
> WORD:
> al edreth
>
> DEFINITION:
> 1. An illusion made specifically to deceive.
>
> COMMENTS:
>
> ***********************
>
> Any other comments or critiques at this preliminary stage are most welcome.
> I plan on releasing the finished product to the CONLANG list whenever it's
> done.
Messages in this topic (10)
________________________________________________________________________
5j. Re: Does anyone use the "-" symbol in his/her conlang?
Posted by: "Samuel Stutter" [email protected]
Date: Tue Aug 3, 2010 6:52 am ((PDT))
"-" ? Either I'm misunderstanding the question but, apart from grammar
- like I use in English quite often when a colon or semi-colon doesn't
seem quite right (I've always imagined it having a slightly different
meaning) - I use it for hyphenation, as in the word "semi-colon"
which as far as I know hasn't lost the hyphen and become a single word
yet. The language uses it regularly in numbers like "des-sis" /ten-
six/ for sixteen and in a word like "tráns-fêgaricenn" /trunk road/
or /main road/. I imagine my language does this rather a lot due to it
being a bit like French (with a college of language governing it), and
it being historically somewhat oppressed, becoming culturally
important (thus slow to change). Writers would have to glue words
together with a regularity which would really annoy the language's
governing body. :-D
I'm not a programmer so this discussion has confused me somewhat... :-S
Sam S
On 3 Aug 2010, at 06:13, Matthew Nichols wrote:
> Why not "-k -word" or "-k word-play"? If -k has suboptions, you
> might need to escape the first one ("-k \-word" perhaps? Then "\-
> word" would be "-k \\-word" or "-k \\\-word"). You could also have
> it quoted («-k "-word"») and *NIX has "--" ("-k -- -word"). And if
> you're doing it in the style of getopt(), "-k -word" should be fine,
> since "-k" always has an argument (right?).
>
> On 8/2/2010 7:23 PM, Daniel Bowman wrote:
>> All,
>>
>> First, the question:
>>
>> Does anyone use the minus sign "-" as a symbol in his or her conlang?
>>
>> Second, why I am asking:
>>
>> Some time ago I asked for suggestions on a good programming
>> language to use
>> in order to build an interactive dictionary for my conlang. This
>> dictionary
>> will eventually be released to our community for others to use.
>>
>> I have settled on using Python, since I am comfortable enough in it
>> to
>> achieve what I want. I just started writing a draft of the search
>> engine.
>> The search engine will be an interactive shell in which the user
>> will type
>> commands. For example:
>>
>> -k love
>>
>> would search the dictionary for the English keyword "love"
>>
>> -w zakayro
>>
>> would search the dictionary for the conlang word "zakayro"
>>
>> The program will differentiate options (those statements starting
>> with "-")
>> from searches or other commands (those statements not starting with
>> "-").
>> This will work fine UNLESS someone has a conlang in which they use
>> the "-"
>> symbol...if that were the case, the program would interpret words
>> in this
>> conlang as being search options as opposed to actual search criteria.
>>
>> Here's an example of how the program works so far. I'm searching
>> my Angosey
>> dictionary for words associated with the English word "illusion".
>> The "-k"
>> option denotes KEYWORD, that is, the English word I am trying to
>> find a
>> match for. I can also search "-w" (Angosey word) and "-
>> g" (grammar). The
>> dictionary returns three results, and gives information on each.
>>
>>>> -k illusion
>> illusion
>> WORD:
>> adra
>>
>> DEFINITION:
>> 1. To appear as. 2. To create an illusion with the intent to
>> deceive. 3.
>> To put on the appearance of love. 4. To love.
>>
>> COMMENTS:
>> Came into existence during the transition between Althalethian
>> Larath and
>> Althalethian Esyevath
>> ***********************
>> WORD:
>> al dantayethreya
>>
>> DEFINITION:
>> 1. The feeling of dreaming while awake, or an experience of lucid
>> dreaming.
>>
>> COMMENTS:
>> Used a lot during Junior year
>> ***********************
>> WORD:
>> al edreth
>>
>> DEFINITION:
>> 1. An illusion made specifically to deceive.
>>
>> COMMENTS:
>>
>> ***********************
>>
>> Any other comments or critiques at this preliminary stage are most
>> welcome.
>> I plan on releasing the finished product to the CONLANG list
>> whenever it's
>> done.
Messages in this topic (10)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
6a. New SpecGram: A Primer in SF Xenolinguistics
Posted by: "David Peterson" [email protected]
Date: Tue Aug 3, 2010 12:27 am ((PDT))
I'm not sure how many here are familiar with Justin B. Rye (author
of the Espe-Ranto), but he's the author of the latest issue of SpecGram:
A special issue devoted to his Primer in SF Xenolinguistics. You
can take a look at it here:
http://specgram.com/CLIX.q/
Just thought I'd pass it along. :)
-David
*******************************************************************
"Sunl� ele�karez �graller�f �jjixelye ye ox�meyze."
"No eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn."
-Jim Morrison
http://dedalvs.com/
LCS Member Since 2007
http://conlang.org/
Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
6b. Re: New SpecGram: A Primer in SF Xenolinguistics
Posted by: "Krista Casada" [email protected]
Date: Tue Aug 3, 2010 6:41 am ((PDT))
Very fun! Especially the whole "choose your own career" thing.
----- Original Message -----
From: David Peterson <[email protected]>
Date: Tuesday, August 3, 2010 2:21 am
Subject: New SpecGram: A Primer in SF Xenolinguistics
To: [email protected]
> I'm not sure how many here are familiar with Justin B. Rye (author
> of the Espe-Ranto), but he's the author of the latest issue of
> SpecGram:A special issue devoted to his Primer in SF
> Xenolinguistics. You
> can take a look at it here:
>
> http://specgram.com/CLIX.q/
>
> Just thought I'd pass it along. :)
>
> -David
> *******************************************************************
> "Sunl� ele�karez �graller�f �jjixelye ye ox�meyze."
> "No eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn."
>
> -Jim Morrison
>
> http://dedalvs.com/
>
> LCS Member Since 2007
> http://conlang.org/
>
Messages in this topic (2)
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