There are 10 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. Re: Chat. Don't join if you don't have the stomach for it.
From: Matthew Turnbull
1b. Re: Chat. Don't join if you don't have the stomach for it.
From: Adam Walker
1c. Re: Chat. Don't join if you don't have the stomach for it.
From: Matthew Turnbull
1d. Re: Chat. Don't join if you don't have the stomach for it.
From: Padraic Brown
1e. Re: Chat. Don't join if you don't have the stomach for it.
From: Sam Stutter
1f. Re: Chat. Don't join if you don't have the stomach for it.
From: Padraic Brown
1g. Re: Chat. Don't join if you don't have the stomach for it.
From: R A Brown
1h. Re: Chat. Don't join if you don't have the stomach for it.
From: G. van der Vegt
1i. Re: Chat. Don't join if you don't have the stomach for it.
From: R A Brown
1j. Re: Chat. Don't join if you don't have the stomach for it.
From: Koppa Dasao
Messages
________________________________________________________________________
1a. Re: Chat. Don't join if you don't have the stomach for it.
Posted by: "Matthew Turnbull" [email protected]
Date: Fri Dec 9, 2011 10:07 am ((PST))
I don't have much to add to the existing topic. But do to the
conculture question. Jorayn speakers don't have an entity that
represents death, you die when you stop being alive, and that's
something that just happens without any spiritual guidance. If
anything they might feel inclined to believe it's the person who dies
choice to die, wheather they know it or not. Once you are dead though
then the male aspect of the human spirit comes to guide your soul to
the sun, which is where souls wait to be reincarnated. (the female
aspect guides you back when it's time.) the same is true for all
animals, and each soul is sentient, but thier bodies aren't always,
you can be reincarnated as any animal, but never a plant, and plants
can only come back as plants, due to a schism that happened early on
in the history of the earth the gods and animals aren't on speaking
terms, so the gods won't let the plants (who they like) mingle with
the animals (who they don't).
On 12/9/11, R A Brown <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 09/12/2011 00:06, Koppa Dasao wrote:
> [snip]
>> My landlord for almost 9 years was found dead about 10
>> hours ago when this mail was written. One of those who
>> saw her was me. Being alone at 1am with the image of her
>> standing in the stairs haunting me doesn't exactly calm
>> me down for the night.
>
> OK - but it does nothing to my stomach.
> ====================================================
>
> On 09/12/2011 00:28, Gary Shannon wrote:
> [snip]
>>
>> At 67 I've sat with and watched a number of people die.
>> There comes a time when you accept it as perfectly
>> natural. That doesn't mean you have to like it, though.
>
> Yep - at 72 I've seen a few, including my own parents.
> ===================================================
>
> On 09/12/2011 01:44, Koppa Dasao wrote:
> [snip]
>>
>> As for my own failed attempts at meeting the Man with the
>> Scythe,
>
> Isn't that Father Time?
>
> St Francis sang of Sister Death.
> ==================================================
>
> On 09/12/2011 04:17, Padraic Brown wrote:
> [snip]
>>
>> On the other hand, there is the old bromide made famous
>> by Auntomoanian philosopher Wulfgard Amarok de
>> Lupodunum: "Live every day as if it's your last. One day
>> you'll be right."
>
> True - one day I'll meet Sister Death. As Socrates said
> many centuries ago: "There is good hope that death is a
> blessing."
>
> I can't think of an ObConlang comment, but an ObConculture
> might be whether death is perceived as male or female, and
> whether as a "grim reaper" or one who brings a blessing.
>
> --
> Ray
> ==================================
> http://www.carolandray.plus.com
> ==================================
> Nid rhy hen neb i ddysgu.
> There's none too old to learn.
> [WELSH PROVERB]
>
--
Sent from my mobile device
Messages in this topic (20)
________________________________________________________________________
1b. Re: Chat. Don't join if you don't have the stomach for it.
Posted by: "Adam Walker" [email protected]
Date: Fri Dec 9, 2011 11:32 am ((PST))
Re: the relationships among Joryan plants, animals and gods ~~ Now
/that s/ a strange mythology!
On 12/9/11, Matthew Turnbull <[email protected]> wrote:
> I don't have much to add to the existing topic. But do to the
> conculture question. Jorayn speakers don't have an entity that
> represents death, you die when you stop being alive, and that's
> something that just happens without any spiritual guidance. If
> anything they might feel inclined to believe it's the person who dies
> choice to die, wheather they know it or not. Once you are dead though
> then the male aspect of the human spirit comes to guide your soul to
> the sun, which is where souls wait to be reincarnated. (the female
> aspect guides you back when it's time.) the same is true for all
> animals, and each soul is sentient, but thier bodies aren't always,
> you can be reincarnated as any animal, but never a plant, and plants
> can only come back as plants, due to a schism that happened early on
> in the history of the earth the gods and animals aren't on speaking
> terms, so the gods won't let the plants (who they like) mingle with
> the animals (who they don't).
>
> On 12/9/11, R A Brown <[email protected]> wrote:
>> On 09/12/2011 00:06, Koppa Dasao wrote:
>> [snip]
>>> My landlord for almost 9 years was found dead about 10
>>> hours ago when this mail was written. One of those who
>>> saw her was me. Being alone at 1am with the image of her
>>> standing in the stairs haunting me doesn't exactly calm
>>> me down for the night.
>>
>> OK - but it does nothing to my stomach.
>> ====================================================
>>
>> On 09/12/2011 00:28, Gary Shannon wrote:
>> [snip]
>>>
>>> At 67 I've sat with and watched a number of people die.
>>> There comes a time when you accept it as perfectly
>>> natural. That doesn't mean you have to like it, though.
>>
>> Yep - at 72 I've seen a few, including my own parents.
>> ===================================================
>>
>> On 09/12/2011 01:44, Koppa Dasao wrote:
>> [snip]
>>>
>>> As for my own failed attempts at meeting the Man with the
>>> Scythe,
>>
>> Isn't that Father Time?
>>
>> St Francis sang of Sister Death.
>> ==================================================
>>
>> On 09/12/2011 04:17, Padraic Brown wrote:
>> [snip]
>>>
>>> On the other hand, there is the old bromide made famous
>>> by Auntomoanian philosopher Wulfgard Amarok de
>>> Lupodunum: "Live every day as if it's your last. One day
>>> you'll be right."
>>
>> True - one day I'll meet Sister Death. As Socrates said
>> many centuries ago: "There is good hope that death is a
>> blessing."
>>
>> I can't think of an ObConlang comment, but an ObConculture
>> might be whether death is perceived as male or female, and
>> whether as a "grim reaper" or one who brings a blessing.
>>
>> --
>> Ray
>> ==================================
>> http://www.carolandray.plus.com
>> ==================================
>> Nid rhy hen neb i ddysgu.
>> There's none too old to learn.
>> [WELSH PROVERB]
>>
>
> --
> Sent from my mobile device
>
Messages in this topic (20)
________________________________________________________________________
1c. Re: Chat. Don't join if you don't have the stomach for it.
Posted by: "Matthew Turnbull" [email protected]
Date: Fri Dec 9, 2011 12:55 pm ((PST))
yeah, it's a bit odd, basically what happened is that when the gods made
the world they intended it to be a relatively safe place where spirits
could get away from the boredom of life for a while and then come back when
they wanted. They told all the spirits in charge how they were supposed to
design the bodies for the other spirits to live in and some of them changed
the plans to make life more exciting and dangerous. The gods told them to
change it back, but they wouldn't because they figured they were in the
right. So then the gods said "so who's with us?" and all the spirits that
agreed with the gods aren't allowed to be animals, who are the bodies whose
design was changed, and all the spirits that dissagreed aren't allowed to
use the original bodies, which are plants. And the gods aren't doing any
favours for or speaking with the "animals" until they go back to the
original plan.
Messages in this topic (20)
________________________________________________________________________
1d. Re: Chat. Don't join if you don't have the stomach for it.
Posted by: "Padraic Brown" [email protected]
Date: Fri Dec 9, 2011 1:45 pm ((PST))
--- On Fri, 12/9/11, R A Brown <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 09/12/2011 01:44, Koppa Dasao wrote:
> [snip]
> >
> > As for my own failed attempts at meeting the Man with
> the
> > Scythe,
>
> Isn't that Father Time?
I think both Time and Death are into gothic agricultural implements and
long billowing robes.
Both are harvesters, after all. Death harvests the living; Time harvests
the present.
> St Francis sang of Sister Death.
Perhaps because both offer some comfort in times of need.
> ==================================================
>
> On 09/12/2011 04:17, Padraic Brown wrote:
> [snip]
> >
> > On the other hand, there is the old bromide made
> famous
> > by Auntomoanian philosopher Wulfgard Amarok de
> > Lupodunum: "Live every day as if it's your last. One
> day
> > you'll be right."
>
> True - one day I'll meet Sister Death. As Socrates
> said
> many centuries ago: "There is good hope that death is a
> blessing."
In many cases, this is very true. I think in some instances, perhaps not
so much a blessing.
> I can't think of an ObConlang comment, but an ObConculture
> might be whether death is perceived as male or female, and
> whether as a "grim reaper" or one who brings a blessing.
In the World, several key quasi-mythological figures (which are really
just story-book manifestations of actual, but perhaps not well known,
beings) are viewd as feminine. Death is one, the Sun is another, the
(pre-Kristian) ruler of heaven is still another. All the "philosophical
gods" (Justice, Mercy, Logic, Rhetoric, and so forth) are all girls.
Now, most *philosophers* are men . . . so there's probably a Universal
Fundamental there.
And, I think quite naturally, Death is someone who often brings one last
mercy to the pain-wracked, disease-savaged, injury-numbed and long-
suffering creatures of Gea. In a world where medicine is still quite
primitive, even compared to our relatively advanced barbarity and
ignorance, this idea of Death being a gift to the mortal races is more
keenly recognised. In some cases, she is your best alternative and only
real hope.
Some folks live longer and are naturally more resistant to disease or
injury. But Death comes for them all eventually. Even the great monsters
that live at the planet's core; even the world and universe itself. Until
at last, Death herself is all that remains. Her and the Eye of God, which,
once Death has harvested herself will bide and Watch from Outside until
the time is right.
> Ray
Padraic
Messages in this topic (20)
________________________________________________________________________
1e. Re: Chat. Don't join if you don't have the stomach for it.
Posted by: "Sam Stutter" [email protected]
Date: Fri Dec 9, 2011 2:39 pm ((PST))
On 9 Dec 2011, at 21:45, Padraic Brown wrote:
> I think both Time and Death are into gothic agricultural implements and
> long billowing robes.
>
> Both are harvesters, after all. Death harvests the living; Time harvests
> the present.
I think for quite a lot of people they're pretty much the same.
>> St Francis sang of Sister Death.
>
> Perhaps because both offer some comfort in times of need.
Either that or he was all for women's lib. Who says the antichrist has to be
male?
> In many cases, this is very true. I think in some instances, perhaps not
> so much a blessing.
Although maybe a relief. At least they don't have to worry about that big
presentation next week :)
> In the World, several key quasi-mythological figures (which are really
> just story-book manifestations of actual, but perhaps not well known,
> beings) are viewd as feminine. Death is one, the Sun is another, the
> (pre-Kristian) ruler of heaven is still another. All the "philosophical
> gods" (Justice, Mercy, Logic, Rhetoric, and so forth) are all girls.
Same in Nỳspèke, although the female deities not in charge of physical
objects are less specific in their jobs. In its basic form, apart from the
deities in charge of celestial bodies, all other metaphysical and spiritual
nouns fall into the "L" class, along with female things, natural geography and
plants.
> Now, most *philosophers* are men . . . so there's probably a Universal
> Fundamental there.
You're making me sound like a pervert...
> And, I think quite naturally, Death is someone who often brings one last
> mercy to the pain-wracked, disease-savaged, injury-numbed and long-
> suffering creatures of Gea. In a world where medicine is still quite
> primitive, even compared to our relatively advanced barbarity and
> ignorance, this idea of Death being a gift to the mortal races is more
> keenly recognised. In some cases, she is your best alternative and only
> real hope.
>
> Some folks live longer and are naturally more resistant to disease or
> injury. But Death comes for them all eventually. Even the great monsters
> that live at the planet's core; even the world and universe itself. Until
> at last, Death herself is all that remains. Her and the Eye of God, which,
> once Death has harvested herself will bide and Watch from Outside until
> the time is right.
Okay, all the hair on the back of my neck stood on end there...
> yeah, it's a bit odd, basically what happened is that when the gods made
> the world they intended it to be a relatively safe place where spirits
> could get away from the boredom of life for a while and then come back when
> they wanted. They told all the spirits in charge how they were supposed to
> design the bodies for the other spirits to live in and some of them changed
> the plans to make life more exciting and dangerous. The gods told them to
> change it back, but they wouldn't because they figured they were in the
> right. So then the gods said "so who's with us?" and all the spirits that
> agreed with the gods aren't allowed to be animals, who are the bodies whose
> design was changed, and all the spirits that dissagreed aren't allowed to
> use the original bodies, which are plants. And the gods aren't doing any
> favours for or speaking with the "animals" until they go back to the
> original plan.
I love this. The only word I can think of to describe it is "analogue". It's
what I imagine Genesis would sound like if it was recorded onto vinyl and then
played out through a speaker made from cellos.
In Nỳspèke mythology, death is a function performed by the creatrix, who is a
sort of hivemind author... look, anyway. She isn't as such a anthropomorph,
rather a force which others invoke, like gravity. And it's not so much death as
recycling. Like "Death" in the Tarot deck it isn't so much a tragedy as a
sea-change (specifically, a sea-change in which a sentient being ceases to
exist) :)
Unless of course some sort of rogue spirit get's her hands on you, in which
case you don't get recycled, but instead become looped through the
netherworlds, which, they say, isn't much fun. Think David Lynch and the Black
Lodge. You might get recycled eventually, but it certainly won't be in the
place you originally started at or the shape you originally possessed.
The creatrix (cue a Samuel Beckett moment) imagines herself, for herself. She's
always the same; a single re-imaginer who continually changes herself (and, as
such, the universe) on a day to day basis. She's the embodiment of "shit
happens". At important moments, however, she makes major revisions, which cause
great upheavals in the fabric of the universe. Don't want to worry anybody, but
by Nỳspèke calculations, there should be a small one approaching soon. Not an
apocalypse, but a major paradigm shift. The end of the world isn't actually
that, it's just the creatrix balling up the piece of paper she's been working
on for many billions of years and re-imagining herself from scratch. Who knows
if there's a shape she'll settle on in the end? Nỳspèke tends not to depict
the creatrix in religious art, not because it's a sin, but just because it's
too darn difficult and, even if you could, it would be out of date a billionth
of second later.
Messages in this topic (20)
________________________________________________________________________
1f. Re: Chat. Don't join if you don't have the stomach for it.
Posted by: "Padraic Brown" [email protected]
Date: Fri Dec 9, 2011 6:51 pm ((PST))
--- On Fri, 12/9/11, Sam Stutter <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Both are harvesters, after all. Death harvests the
> > living; Time harvests the present.
>
> I think for quite a lot of people they're pretty much the
> same.
Yeah.
> >> St Francis sang of Sister Death.
> >
> > Perhaps because both offer some comfort in times of
> need.
>
> Either that or he was all for women's lib.
Could be, though I'm not aware of him being such. He was involved in
founding an order for women along the lines of his own order.
> Who says the antichrist has to be male?
I don't think there is a doctrine or belief about "the" antichrist --
there can be more than one. And presumably, the role is open to anyone
without regard to gender!
> > In many cases, this is very true. I think in some
> instances, perhaps not
> > so much a blessing.
>
> Although maybe a relief. At least they don't have to worry
> about that big presentation next week :)
There is that!
> > Now, most *philosophers* are men . . . so there's
> > probably a Universal Fundamental there.
>
> You're making me sound like a pervert...
(: Nothing so illintented I assure! But you have to admit, the number of
generally young, generally buxom allegorical figures is quite high!
> > Some folks live longer and are naturally more
> > resistant to disease or
> > injury. But Death comes for them all eventually. Even
> > the great monsters
> > that live at the planet's core; even the world and
> > universe itself. Until
> > at last, Death herself is all that remains. Her and
> > the Eye of God, which,
> > once Death has harvested herself will bide and Watch
> > from Outside until the time is right.
>
> Okay, all the hair on the back of my neck stood on end
> there...
Out of curiosity, what bit raised the hair on the back of your neck? It's
a paraphrase of one of the eschatological works from the World.
> > yeah, it's a bit odd, basically what happened is that
> when the gods made
> > the world they intended it to be a relatively safe
> place where spirits
> > could get away from the boredom of life for a while
> and then come back when
> > they wanted. They told all the spirits in charge how
> they were supposed to
> > design the bodies for the other spirits to live in and
> some of them changed
> > the plans to make life more exciting and dangerous.
> The gods told them to
> > change it back, but they wouldn't because they figured
> they were in the
> > right. So then the gods said "so who's with us?" and
> all the spirits that
> > agreed with the gods aren't allowed to be animals, who
> are the bodies whose
> > design was changed, and all the spirits that
> dissagreed aren't allowed to
> > use the original bodies, which are plants. And the
> gods aren't doing any
> > favours for or speaking with the "animals" until they
> go back to the
> > original plan.
>
> I love this.
Yeah, this is fantastic! It's one of (many) Wish-I'da-Thunk-o-That moments
I get hereabouts!
Padraic
Messages in this topic (20)
________________________________________________________________________
1g. Re: Chat. Don't join if you don't have the stomach for it.
Posted by: "R A Brown" [email protected]
Date: Fri Dec 9, 2011 11:54 pm ((PST))
On 10/12/2011 02:51, Padraic Brown wrote:
> --- On Fri, 12/9/11, Sam Stutter<[email protected]>
> wrote:
[snip]
>>>> St Francis sang of Sister Death.
>>>
>>> Perhaps because both offer some comfort in times of
>> need.
>>
>> Either that or he was all for women's lib.
>
> Could be, though I'm not aware of him being such.
Nor I.
Methinks it's nothing more or less than the simple fact that
'death' {la morte) is grammatically feminine in Italian, as
it is in Latin and the Romance languages :)
Had the Italian word been masculine, then he would have sung
of 'Brother Death' - but it ain't.
In ancient & modern Greek, however, death is masculine, á½
θάναÏÎ¿Ï (ho thánatos), as it also in German _der Tod_.
In Russian we find that ÑмеÑÑÑ (smert') is feminine. Whereas
Welsh hedges its bets, so to speak, having both the
masculine _angau_ and feminine _marwolaeth_ :)
Now clearly in languages like the Romancelangs & Welsh,
where nouns are either masculine or feminine, death must
perforce be either masculine or feminine. But what I find
interesting is that even in languages which have a neuter
gender, e.g. Latin, Greek (both ancient & modern), German
and Russian, death is nor seen as neuter.
ObConlang
In conlangs that have grammatical gender how does 'death' fare?
(I'm afraid neither TAKE nor Brx have grammatical gender).
--
Ray
==================================
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
Nid rhy hen neb i ddysgu.
There's none too old to learn.
[WELSH PROVERB]
Messages in this topic (20)
________________________________________________________________________
1h. Re: Chat. Don't join if you don't have the stomach for it.
Posted by: "G. van der Vegt" [email protected]
Date: Sat Dec 10, 2011 12:17 am ((PST))
> Now clearly in languages like the Romancelangs & Welsh,
> where nouns are either masculine or feminine, death must
> perforce be either masculine or feminine. But what I find
> interesting is that even in languages which have a neuter
> gender, e.g. Latin, Greek (both ancient & modern), German
> and Russian, death is nor seen as neuter.
>
This isn't limited to Death either, there's many similarish concepts
that tend towards being assigned a grammatical gender. I think it have
to do with the days where these concepts where regularly personified.
Compare the Dutch 'Vadertje Tijd' (Father Time), 'Moeder Aarde'
(Mother Earth), 'Koning Winter' (King Winter), and so on. Death would
fit right into that list.
And of course, different cultures would interpret such concepts
differently, leading to different grammatical genders in the languages
way past the point where such personifications had any relationship to
how people really view those concepts.
Messages in this topic (20)
________________________________________________________________________
1i. Re: Chat. Don't join if you don't have the stomach for it.
Posted by: "R A Brown" [email protected]
Date: Sat Dec 10, 2011 2:39 am ((PST))
On 10/12/2011 08:17, G. van der Vegt wrote:
>> Now clearly in languages like the Romancelangs& Welsh,
>> where nouns are either masculine or feminine, death
>> must perforce be either masculine or feminine. But what
>> I find interesting is that even in languages which have
>> a neuter gender, e.g. Latin, Greek (both ancient&
>> modern), German and Russian, death is nor seen as
>> neuter.
>>
>
> This isn't limited to Death either, there's many
> similarish concepts that tend towards being assigned a
> grammatical gender. I think it have to do with the days
> where these concepts where regularly personified.
Yes, I think that is what I was hinting.
> Compare the Dutch 'Vadertje Tijd' (Father Time), 'Moeder
> Aarde' (Mother Earth), 'Koning Winter' (King Winter),
We have 'Father Time' and 'Mother Earth' in English also,
even tho our language does not mark grammatical gender. But
we don't have 'King Winter' ;)
> and so on. Death would fit right into that list.
Yep, sister Death :)
> And of course, different cultures would interpret such
> concepts differently, leading to different grammatical
> genders in the languages way past the point where such
> personifications had any relationship to how people
> really view those concepts.
Exactly - that's why I was intrigued that some cultures at
some time in their past had personified death as female, and
others as 'male.' Presumably this difference must occur in
concultures also.
In the Romlangs gender will clearly follow that of Latin
and Romance languages. But I'm sure there must be other
a_priori conlangs with grammatical gender. What determines
gender in such languages?
--
Ray
==================================
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
Nid rhy hen neb i ddysgu.
There's none too old to learn.
[WELSH PROVERB]
Messages in this topic (20)
________________________________________________________________________
1j. Re: Chat. Don't join if you don't have the stomach for it.
Posted by: "Koppa Dasao" [email protected]
Date: Sat Dec 10, 2011 4:46 am ((PST))
2011/12/10 R A Brown <[email protected]>:
> On 10/12/2011 02:51, Padraic Brown wrote:
>>
>> --- On Fri, 12/9/11, Sam Stutter<[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
>>>>> St Francis sang of Sister Death.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Perhaps because both offer some comfort in times of
>>>
>>> need.
>>>
>>> Either that or he was all for women's lib.
>>
>>
>> Could be, though I'm not aware of him being such.
>
>
> Nor I.
>
> Methinks it's nothing more or less than the simple fact that
> 'death' {la morte) is grammatically feminine in Italian, as
> it is in Latin and the Romance languages :)
>
> Had the Italian word been masculine, then he would have sung
> of 'Brother Death' - but it ain't.
>
> In ancient & modern Greek, however, death is masculine, á½
> θάναÏÎ¿Ï (ho thánatos), as it also in German _der Tod_.
Same goes for Norwegian, en død.
> In Russian we find that ÑмеÑÑÑ (smert') is feminine. Whereas
> Welsh hedges its bets, so to speak, having both the
> masculine _angau_ and feminine _marwolaeth_ :)
>
> Now clearly in languages like the Romancelangs & Welsh,
> where nouns are either masculine or feminine, death must
> perforce be either masculine or feminine. But what I find
> interesting is that even in languages which have a neuter
> gender, e.g. Latin, Greek (both ancient & modern), German
> and Russian, death is nor seen as neuter.
>
> ObConlang
> In conlangs that have grammatical gender how does 'death' fare?
In Delang Ð¼Ð¾Ñ (mox) /mux / is, like all thoughts, neuter. Masculine,
feminine and common gender are reserved for living things.
> (I'm afraid neither TAKE nor Brx have grammatical gender).
>
>
> --
> Ray
> ==================================
> http://www.carolandray.plus.com
> ==================================
> Nid rhy hen neb i ddysgu.
> There's none too old to learn.
> [WELSH PROVERB]
Koppa Dasao
___
ÐеҫаÑÐ»Ñ Ð²ÐµÑно!
Les Miserables forever!
Messages in this topic (20)
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