There are 25 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. Re: fragments of new conlang: chrestomathy thereof
From: Sam Stutter
2.1. Re: Chat. Don't join if you don't have the stomach for it.
From: Brian
2.2. Re: Chat. Don't join if you don't have the stomach for it.
From: Padraic Brown
2.3. Re: Chat. Don't join if you don't have the stomach for it.
From: Koppa Dasao
2.4. Re: Chat. Don't join if you don't have the stomach for it.
From: Sam Stutter
2.5. Re: Chat. Don't join if you don't have the stomach for it.
From: Koppa Dasao
2.6. Re: Chat. Don't join if you don't have the stomach for it.
From: Charlie Brickner
2.7. Re: Chat. Don't join if you don't have the stomach for it.
From: Daniel Prohaska
2.8. Re: Chat. Don't join if you don't have the stomach for it.
From: Padraic Brown
2.9. Re: Chat. Don't join if you don't have the stomach for it.
From: Koppa Dasao
3a. Conlang regional variations
From: Gary Shannon
3b. Re: Conlang regional variations
From: Koppa Dasao
3c. Re: Conlang regional variations
From: Daniel Prohaska
3d. Re: Conlang regional variations
From: Jörg Rhiemeier
3e. Re: Conlang regional variations
From: Toms Deimonds Barvidis
3f. Re: Conlang regional variations
From: Padraic Brown
3g. Re: Conlang regional variations
From: Roger Mills
3h. Re: Conlang regional variations
From: Douglas Koller
3i. Re: Conlang regional variations
From: Herman Miller
3j. Re: Conlang regional variations
From: Jan van Steenbergen
4a. Väder/kläd er på nors k
From: Douglas Koller
4b. Re: Väder/kläd er på nors k
From: Koppa Dasao
5.1. Re: OT: ge ndered usa ge of "fia ncé(e)" -- plus obCo nlang vo
From: Douglas Koller
6a. A sort of "lexicalized syntax"-- has this been done before?
From: Matthew Martin
6b. Re: A sort of "lexicalized syntax"-- has this been done before?
From: Matthew Turnbull
Messages
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1a. Re: fragments of new conlang: chrestomathy thereof
Posted by: "Sam Stutter" [email protected]
Date: Sun Dec 11, 2011 6:21 am ((PST))
I'm guessing it's a human narrative, so may I inquire after the genders of the
names?
On 11 Dec 2011, at 13:07, Wesley Parish wrote:
> I've been working on a novel of sorts for the last few years, and have
> decided to work out the language behind the names. this is the current state
> of the names:
>
> -aia formation
> Anaia
> Antaia
> Irianaia
> Bitanaia
> Anastasaia
> Apaia
> Jenaia
> Menaia
Female, right?
>
> -oia formation
> Itudoia
I'm going to apply Lesson 5 of Xenolinguistics here "if thereâs any sign of
females, their names will end in an unstressed -a". I totally do this all the
time too. In fact, the Nỳspekè "zhenkhe selhisaeyè (titular class)
declensions all have the nominative suffix +ìa
>
> -eia formation
> Kereia
>
> -ais formation
> Farais
>
> -in formation
> Keruin
> Bin
> Jean
Probably male? Sounds like one name actually, "Jean bin Keruin"
>
> -iun formation
> Edeiun
> Maiun
> Biennuiun
>
> -yi formation
> Odayi
Female? Sort of, I don't know, "ethnic" / "elvish" / "enchantress" / "tribal"?
:-P
>
> -aiohh formation
> Rebaiohh
At first glance this looks remarkably Gaelic. How is it pronounced?
>
> -na formation
> Teraiana
> Ivanna
> Johanna
>
> -nza formation
> Firanza
>
> -u formation
> En Vilou
Looks French. Again, what's the pronunciation? I can imagine a Firanza en Vilou
living in a Parisian appartement. She's possibly steampunk and may well fight
crime with some sort of talking animal sidekick... Um... if you see that name
turn up in print anywhere it *definitely* wasn't me who stole it :)
>
> -yl formation
> Karyl
> Daryl
Male, I'm guessing.
>
> -ya formation
> Meya
> Bituya
>
> -ye formation
> Antuye
>
> -we formation
> Bitewe
>
> -os formation
> Boutros
>
> -an formation
> Geman
The two above are male villains? Boutros runs an evil multinational, Geman is
his deformed hitman-butler. Again, I *do not* intend to steal any of these :)
I'm being facetious of course, I *have* read the bit below.
>
> most of the formations are adjectival and most seem to derive from a common
> basis, the Vowel-semiVowel-Vowel form. the -ye, -ya, and -we forms are
> diminutive and intimate and are generally used by mothers or lovers, though
> Meya is a non-diminutive. it is likely that the -yi formation is a diminutive
> form that has taken on non-diminutive status over time.
Are you able to generate names on the fly yet?
>
> The only four names I know something of the meaning of, are Bitanaia -
> ticklish, with all its diminutives, Bituya (a lover's intimate diminutive)
> and Bitewe (a mother's affectionate diminutive); Antaia (high-spirited),with
> its diminutive Antuye, a lover's intimate diminutive; and Geman-Menaia, where
> Geman - worthy - loses its adjectival ending -aia when in apposition to
> another adjective - Menaia - loving, the whole name becoming a rough
> equivalent of Amanda - Worthy of being loved/lovable.
Are these rules applied universally? Or are there different rules for the
different genders? Or for different name origins (like English stem changing
verbs)? Or for cases?
> And Anastasaia - this is horribly politically incorrect - an, ana generally
> means "high", in the physical and various metaphorical senses. stas and stasi
> generally refers to the female bosom. Anastasaia is generally regarded as one
> of the "mothers" of all the humans in the Enclave, a region of almost-space
> trapped between various aspects of various pre-universes' membranes, and
> while some would consider that the meaning of her name refers to her
> nurturing side, others with equal justification, consider it refers to her
> sexual pride and appetite. I am a mere chronicler, and would not wish to
> choose either side. :)
Yeah, yeah, that's what they all say. Have you read any essays on the author
and reader as voyeurs? :-P
>
> As yet there are no texts. these names are all there currently is.
>
> Wesley Parish
Anyway, GTG. I've got this really good idea for a series of steampunk crime
short-stories set in Paris :)
Messages in this topic (2)
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2.1. Re: Chat. Don't join if you don't have the stomach for it.
Posted by: "Brian" [email protected]
Date: Sun Dec 11, 2011 6:35 am ((PST))
As for the natlang side of grammatical gender I have no explanation.
On the conlang side I typically use aesthetics. I'll come up with a word root
and decide from there which ending best suits the sound (after I have developed
thet different grammatical gender endings). Although for my conlangs I never
use the terms "gender", "masculine", "feminine", "neuter", I use the terms
class because I can't conceive of why "gender" should be used.
-----Original Message-----
From: R A Brown <[email protected]>
Sender: Constructed Languages List <[email protected]>
Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2011 09:24:53
To: <[email protected]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Chat. Don't join if you don't have the stomach for it.
On 10/12/2011 22:20, BPJ wrote:
> On 2011-12-10 21:39, R A Brown wrote:
[snip]
> ............. True there is no grammatical or semantic
> 'reason' why those suffixes or any word denoting an
> inanimate should be associated with masculine or
> feminine gender, but they were, and often on the basis of
> sharing a suffix with some other word. As for true root
> nouns in Indo-European those in Vedic were feminine when
> nomina actionis and masculine when nomina agentis. If
> that was because of some analogy or because Vedic poets
> were preoccupied with male actors I don't know.
I.e. true, in fact, that you have not answered my original
question which, admittedly, I was addressing to conlangs
rather than natlangs.
If you recall, I initially pointed out that St Francis sang
about 'Sister Death' not because of some feeling of
pro-feminism or any modern concept, but simply because _la
morte_ is grammatically feminine. Had Francis been German
rather than Italian he would have sung of 'Brother Death' -
but he wasn't.
That, surely, _agrees_ with what you earlier wrote:
"Death/time/whatever became male or female because the word
for it had a certain grammatical gender, not the other way
around!" - which is precisely what I said.
I merely observed that even in languages like Latin, Greek,
German and Russian, which possess a neuter gender, 'death'
and many other concepts were assigned masculine or feminine
_grammatical gender_. I merely asked, because this is after
all a *conlang* list, what criteria conlangers used in
assigning gender in a conlang with a grammatical gender system.
OK - even if most of the gender assignments in IE languages
are ultimately due to that of formative suffixes, you do
seem to admit that some, at least, were roots words which
did carry gender. But the formative suffix explanation
merely pushes the question back one stage, not answer it.
Why did various formative suffixes confer a particular
grammatical gender on a noun?
But, as I say, I was addressing the question to conlangs
rather than natlangs such as the IE and Semitic ones.
[snip]
>> die- (diÄs, diÄs) normally masculine, with singular
>> sometimes treated as feminine if it refers to a
>> specific day?
>
> No idea, but both _di_ and feminine _dia_ occur in
> Romance -- even both in the same language in Old
> Occitan/Provençal! Perhaps some funniness of that
> conlang Written Latin going on. After all all other words
> of the fifth declension are feminine, so perhaps _dies_
> became masculine on analogy with some lost word,
Indeed, all other 5th declension nouns are feminine, thus
one would have expected _diÄs_ to be feminine, and it was
almost certainly the 'feminine attraction' that accounts the
use in the singular when referring to a specific day. But
the word held onto its 'masculinity' in most contexts and
its descendants in Spanish and Portuguese still do: el día,
o día.
But, methinks, there is more than just derived gender,
formative suffixes etc going on. We do find examples of
gender change. It is well known that Latin neuters normally
became masculines in the Romancelangs. So we find Latin
_mare_ "sea" turning up dutifully as Italian _il mare_,
Spanish _el mar_ and Portuguese _o mar_ - but the French and
Romanians feminize it, thus: _la mer_, _marea_ (final -a
being the feminine article). Analogy with _terra_ "earth"
is the usual explanation. But why only French & Romanian
and not the others?
The Latin _pÅns, pontis_ "bridge" is masculine (why?) and
generally retains that gender in Romance, hence. e.g. French
_le pont_. But in Portuguese it is feminine _a ponte_.
Also the word was borrowed by the ancient Brits and survives
in modern Welsh as the feminine _pont_ "bridge" ~ y bont
"the bridge" (feminine nouns have 'soft mutation' after the
definite article.
So IMO there is more going on than just gender of formative
suffixes.
But:
>>
>> What determines gender assignment of _monomorphemic_
>> words/stems in naturalistic conlangs?
>
> The whim of the author, obviously, as always in
> conlangs.
With respect, that is a non-answer. At that level we may as
well not ask any conlanger why s/he does this, that or the
other. "Oh, it's just my whim."
OK - I'll put it another way. "Why whim cause you, dear
conlanger, to assign grammatical gender to objects 7 other
concepts in your conlang?"
> Anyway the 'reason' why _morte_ is feminine in Italian
> is lost in prehistory, and was not caused by anyone
> imagining personified Death as female. Believing that is
> to put the cart before the horse.
Where, in this thread, did anyone actually suggest this!
Let me summarize what I _did_ say:
1. St Francis personified Death as 'Sister Death' because
_morte_ has feminine gender in Italian.
2. Italian _morte_ is feminine because it is derived from
Latin _mors, mortis_ which was also feminine.
3. Why, as Latin has a neuter gender, did it make _mors_
feminine? [Your answer: because it contains the formative
suffix -t-. My supplementary question: Why does that make
it feminine? Note: I say _feminine_ (grammatical), *not*
female.]
4. What factor/ consideration/ whim determines _grammatical
gender_ in conlangs that have such gender?
{Sigh}
I was merely trying to give an off-topic subject a _conlang
twist_ because I was under the impression that this was a
conlang list! But over recent months it seems that
whenever I try to do this my words inevitably get
misunderstood or misrepresented - which I find very tedious.
As someone wrote to me privately quite recently "I'm not
sure why it seems to be open season on you right now."
--
Ray
==================================
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
Nid rhy hen neb i ddysgu.
There's none too old to learn.
[WELSH PROVERB]
Messages in this topic (37)
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2.2. Re: Chat. Don't join if you don't have the stomach for it.
Posted by: "Padraic Brown" [email protected]
Date: Sun Dec 11, 2011 7:07 am ((PST))
--- On Sun, 12/11/11, R A Brown <[email protected]> wrote:
As for German "Tod", the proper question might be to ask a German speaker
how, if at all, Death is personified in German speaking lands.
> >> What determines gender assignment of _monomorphemic_
> >> words/stems in naturalistic conlangs?
> >
> > The whim of the author, obviously, as always in
> > conlangs.
>
> With respect, that is a non-answer. At that level we may
> as well not ask any conlanger why s/he does this, that or the
> other. "Oh, it's just my whim."
>
> OK - I'll put it another way. "Why whim cause you, dear
> conlanger, to assign grammatical gender to objects 7 other
> concepts in your conlang?"
At least for me, there's no simple answer. I've already mentioned some
grammatical issues, mostly languages that have gender, but not *human*
gender. Other reasons are concultural and indeed the natural order itself
within the secondary world. There are occasional cultures in the World
that are (perhaps stereotypically) "Amazonian" -- feminist (in the modern
American sense) almost to an extreme; there are many that are simply
more female-oriented or more balanced than we might be used to from a
more historically patriarchal perspective.
These cultural elements certainly play their part. In Osmund, a smallish
realm of the rabidly feminist sort, it should come as no surprise that
such important allegorical figures are female. Even in regards to religion,
Jesus and the Twelve are all women.
Another element to be considered, at least for some world builders, is the
natural order of the universe itself. In a universe where some / all
natural forces are, in fact, beings of some kind, these same may manifest
in forms appropriate to the sentient beings of this universe. This is why
Death is seen as female in the World, not because of words or gendered
suffixes, but simply because the psychopomp (and her associates) are
largely female in manifestation.
> But over recent months it seems that
> whenever I try to do this my words inevitably get
> misunderstood or misrepresented - which I find very
> tedious.
For what it's worth, I got the original intent! ;)
Hopefully someone else will answer as well, so we can see what other ideas
are floating about.
> Ray
Padraic
Messages in this topic (37)
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2.3. Re: Chat. Don't join if you don't have the stomach for it.
Posted by: "Koppa Dasao" [email protected]
Date: Sun Dec 11, 2011 8:19 am ((PST))
Talking about German... In Norway we got a moving company called Toten
Transport...
Koppa Dasao
___
ÐеҫаÑÐ»Ñ Ð²ÐµÑно!
Les Miserables forever!
2011/12/11 Padraic Brown <[email protected]>:
> --- On Sun, 12/11/11, R A Brown <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> As for German "Tod", the proper question might be to ask a German speaker
> how, if at all, Death is personified in German speaking lands.
Messages in this topic (37)
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2.4. Re: Chat. Don't join if you don't have the stomach for it.
Posted by: "Sam Stutter" [email protected]
Date: Sun Dec 11, 2011 8:54 am ((PST))
Really? Here we have one called "S.T.D." and another called "dgos"
Sam Stutter
[email protected]
"No e na il cu barri"
On 11 Dec 2011, at 16:19, Koppa Dasao <[email protected]> wrote:
> Talking about German... In Norway we got a moving company called Toten
> Transport...
>
> Koppa Dasao
> ___
> ÐеҫаÑÐ»Ñ Ð²ÐµÑно!
> Les Miserables forever!
>
>
>
> 2011/12/11 Padraic Brown <[email protected]>:
>> --- On Sun, 12/11/11, R A Brown <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> As for German "Tod", the proper question might be to ask a German speaker
>> how, if at all, Death is personified in German speaking lands.
Messages in this topic (37)
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2.5. Re: Chat. Don't join if you don't have the stomach for it.
Posted by: "Koppa Dasao" [email protected]
Date: Sun Dec 11, 2011 9:02 am ((PST))
A brother of a friend and the son of my late landlord works in a
company called Kanonbra, Canon good. Guess what they make..
Koppa Dasao
___
ÐеҫаÑÐ»Ñ Ð²ÐµÑно!
Les Miserables forever!
2011/12/11 Sam Stutter <[email protected]>:
> Really? Here we have one called "S.T.D." and another called "dgos"
>
> Sam Stutter
> [email protected]
> "No e na il cu barri"
>
> On 11 Dec 2011, at 16:19, Koppa Dasao <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Talking about German... In Norway we got a moving company called Toten
>> Transport...
>>
>> Koppa Dasao
>> ___
>> ÐеҫаÑÐ»Ñ Ð²ÐµÑно!
>> Les Miserables forever!
>>
>>
>>
>> 2011/12/11 Padraic Brown <[email protected]>:
>>> --- On Sun, 12/11/11, R A Brown <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>> As for German "Tod", the proper question might be to ask a German speaker
>>> how, if at all, Death is personified in German speaking lands.
Messages in this topic (37)
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2.6. Re: Chat. Don't join if you don't have the stomach for it.
Posted by: "Charlie Brickner" [email protected]
Date: Sun Dec 11, 2011 10:05 am ((PST))
On Sun, 11 Dec 2011 09:24:53 +0000, R A Brown
<[email protected]> wrote:
>4. What factor/ consideration/ whim determines _grammatical
>gender_ in conlangs that have such gender?
In the Sefdaanian cultures, six is a sacred number and has resulted in a
number of groupings, listings, etc., of six. I can only surmise why. I think
its
because speech is considered a sacred gift and there are six vowels and 24
consonants in Senjecas. Six was seen as a sacred number by the first-
created, the Ethrans, long before the other five loquent peoples were created.
And so, because of this there are six declensions (the word I choose to use)
of nouns based on the six vowels. These are always listed in the Senjecan
alphabetical order.
-is = plants, eléntis, Norway spruce; also nouns in twis which indicate
substances used for something named in the root, e.g., lómhtwis = soap,
< lómha, wash. These substances are made from plants. (h = voiceless)
-es = animals, e.g., ȝórhkes, deer.
-as = abstractions, e.g., mérhas, death.
-ɔs = aberrant creatures, e.g., marhgwénɔs, mermaid;
necédɔs, ghoul.
-os = concrete objects, e.g., abélos, apple; but abélis, the apple tree.
-us = loquent beings, e.g., mhírus, man; gámus, co-wife.
Charlie
Messages in this topic (37)
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2.7. Re: Chat. Don't join if you don't have the stomach for it.
Posted by: "Daniel Prohaska" [email protected]
Date: Sun Dec 11, 2011 10:15 am ((PST))
"Der Tod" is personified, pretty much as the typically mediaeval dark robed man
with a scythe. As for the grammatical gender of Tod, I think it's simply
because the word belongs to the Germanic a-class nouns, many of which happen to
be masculine, some neuter. Germanic *dauþaz was masculine.
Dan
--- On Sun, 12/11/11, R A Brown <[email protected]> wrote:
As for German "Tod", the proper question might be to ask a German speaker
how, if at all, Death is personified in German speaking lands.
Messages in this topic (37)
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2.8. Re: Chat. Don't join if you don't have the stomach for it.
Posted by: "Padraic Brown" [email protected]
Date: Sun Dec 11, 2011 4:44 pm ((PST))
--- On Sun, 12/11/11, Koppa Dasao <[email protected]> wrote:
> Talking about German... In Norway we got a moving company called Toten
> Transport...
Does it mean "Dead Transport"?? I understand that Toten is a district of
Norway.
For what it's worth, that makes good sense in English too: Totin Transport,
because 'tote' means carry.
Padraic
> Koppa Dasao
Messages in this topic (37)
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2.9. Re: Chat. Don't join if you don't have the stomach for it.
Posted by: "Koppa Dasao" [email protected]
Date: Sun Dec 11, 2011 5:58 pm ((PST))
Yeah, you're right. They're located on Toten, but they transport all
over Europe.
Koppa Dasao
___
Norway isn't the solution, but the appendix that's cut out!
2011/12/12 Padraic Brown <[email protected]>:
> --- On Sun, 12/11/11, Koppa Dasao <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Talking about German... In Norway we got a moving company called Toten
>> Transport...
>
> Does it mean "Dead Transport"?? I understand that Toten is a district of
> Norway.
>
> For what it's worth, that makes good sense in English too: Totin Transport,
> because 'tote' means carry.
>
> Padraic
>
>> Koppa Dasao
Messages in this topic (37)
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3a. Conlang regional variations
Posted by: "Gary Shannon" [email protected]
Date: Sun Dec 11, 2011 10:23 am ((PST))
I'm studying some interesting regional variations in Spanish,
specifically a half dozen or more diminutive endings each of which has
a different, and often overlapping, geographical distribution and
different rules for use in different regions. Another example from
Spanish is the use of tú, vos, and vosotros.
Then it occurred to me to wonder about regional variations in
conlangs. I've never given it any thought myself, but have any of you
added such variations in your conlangs? There have been times when I
couldn't make up my mind between two alternatives for some feature of
a conlang, but if I include regional variations then I can do it both
ways. I simply utter some mumbo-jumbo like: "it's done the first way
in the northern highlands, but in the southern coastal regions they do
it differently." That way I keep my cake and eat it too, as they say
in the eastern provinces (The famous Schrödinger's cake paradox.).
How well developed is your system of regional differences?
--gary
Messages in this topic (10)
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3b. Re: Conlang regional variations
Posted by: "Koppa Dasao" [email protected]
Date: Sun Dec 11, 2011 10:32 am ((PST))
Delang has regional variations. I haven't developed it that much, but
the notion of there being two scripts depending on region has been
partially developed. I've used it in the Christmas Card Exchange.
Koppa Dasao
___
Norway isn't the solution, but the appendix that's cut out!
2011/12/11 Gary Shannon <[email protected]>:
> I'm studying some interesting regional variations in Spanish,
> specifically a half dozen or more diminutive endings each of which has
> a different, and often overlapping, geographical distribution and
> different rules for use in different regions. Another example from
> Spanish is the use of tú, vos, and vosotros.
>
> Then it occurred to me to wonder about regional variations in
> conlangs. I've never given it any thought myself, but have any of you
> added such variations in your conlangs? There have been times when I
> couldn't make up my mind between two alternatives for some feature of
> a conlang, but if I include regional variations then I can do it both
> ways. I simply utter some mumbo-jumbo like: "it's done the first way
> in the northern highlands, but in the southern coastal regions they do
> it differently." That way I keep my cake and eat it too, as they say
> in the eastern provinces (The famous Schrödinger's cake paradox.).
>
> How well developed is your system of regional differences?
>
> --gary
Messages in this topic (10)
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3c. Re: Conlang regional variations
Posted by: "Daniel Prohaska" [email protected]
Date: Sun Dec 11, 2011 10:33 am ((PST))
On Dec 11, 2011, at 7:22 PM, Gary Shannon wrote:
> I'm studying some interesting regional variations in Spanish,
> specifically a half dozen or more diminutive endings each of which has
> a different, and often overlapping, geographical distribution and
> different rules for use in different regions. Another example from
> Spanish is the use of tú, vos, and vosotros.
>
> Then it occurred to me to wonder about regional variations in
> conlangs. I've never given it any thought myself, but have any of you
> added such variations in your conlangs?
Most definitely! My Sealandic, a West Germanic (Ingvaeonic) conlang was only
spoken in regional dialects the way Swiss German, Faeroese or Norwegian is
spoken in regional dialects. There was only a standard written language for
which there was a 'learners' pronunciation' - a native speaker, would have
spoken one of the dialects. For the most part Sealandic was a dialect
continuum, but some geographical boundaries also resulted in more abrupt
dialectal changes. Also, varying influence from neighboring languages came into
play.
> There have been times when I
> couldn't make up my mind between two alternatives for some feature of
> a conlang, but if I include regional variations then I can do it both
> ways. I simply utter some mumbo-jumbo like: "it's done the first way
> in the northern highlands, but in the southern coastal regions they do
> it differently."
Absolutely.
Dan
> That way I keep my cake and eat it too, as they say
> in the eastern provinces (The famous Schrödinger's cake paradox.).
>
> How well developed is your system of regional differences?
>
> --gary
Messages in this topic (10)
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3d. Re: Conlang regional variations
Posted by: "Jörg Rhiemeier" [email protected]
Date: Sun Dec 11, 2011 11:37 am ((PST))
Hallo conlangers!
On Sunday 11 December 2011 19:22:54 Gary Shannon wrote:
> I'm studying some interesting regional variations in Spanish,
> specifically a half dozen or more diminutive endings each of which has
> a different, and often overlapping, geographical distribution and
> different rules for use in different regions. Another example from
> Spanish is the use of tú, vos, and vosotros.
>
> Then it occurred to me to wonder about regional variations in
> conlangs. I've never given it any thought myself, but have any of you
> added such variations in your conlangs? There have been times when I
> couldn't make up my mind between two alternatives for some feature of
> a conlang, but if I include regional variations then I can do it both
> ways. I simply utter some mumbo-jumbo like: "it's done the first way
> in the northern highlands, but in the southern coastal regions they do
> it differently." That way I keep my cake and eat it too, as they say
> in the eastern provinces (The famous Schrödinger's cake paradox.).
>
> How well developed is your system of regional differences?
Old Albic has dialects; I have lists of sound changes, starting
with Proto-Albic, for the twelve main dialects, though I haven't
worked out any of them in detail beyond that yet.
--
... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
http://www.joerg-rhiemeier.de/Conlang/index.html
"Bêsel asa Êm, a Êm atha cvanthal a cvanth atha Êmel." - SiM 1:1
Messages in this topic (10)
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3e. Re: Conlang regional variations
Posted by: "Toms Deimonds Barvidis" [email protected]
Date: Sun Dec 11, 2011 12:38 pm ((PST))
I simply love these things! :D
Nagatol has three forms I have worked out - the Standard Written Nagatol, the
language of the King and the Court,
and to dialectal varieties - Northern and Southern, though more accurately they
would be north-western and south-
eastern. South eastern gradually fades into Attatälai, a closely related
language, thus forming a dialect continuum.
I have been thinking about working out the detail on dialects of Arazi, which
is supposed to be a huge dialect
continuum, providing the basis for three literary languages - Standard Arazi,
Standard Shanidari and Written Möröy.
Longrimol has some grammatical constructions tied to certain regions, but
nothing more detailed.
---
TDB
CitÄjot "Gary Shannon" <[email protected]>:
> I'm studying some interesting regional variations in Spanish,
> specifically a half dozen or more diminutive endings each of which has
> a different, and often overlapping, geographical distribution and
> different rules for use in different regions. Another example from
> Spanish is the use of tú, vos, and vosotros.
>
> Then it occurred to me to wonder about regional variations in
> conlangs. I've never given it any thought myself, but have any of you
> added such variations in your conlangs? There have been times when I
> couldn't make up my mind between two alternatives for some feature of
> a conlang, but if I include regional variations then I can do it both
> ways. I simply utter some mumbo-jumbo like: "it's done the first way
> in the northern highlands, but in the southern coastal regions they do
> it differently." That way I keep my cake and eat it too, as they say
> in the eastern provinces (The famous Schrödinger's cake paradox.).
>
> How well developed is your system of regional differences?
>
> --gary
Messages in this topic (10)
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3f. Re: Conlang regional variations
Posted by: "Padraic Brown" [email protected]
Date: Sun Dec 11, 2011 12:45 pm ((PST))
--- On Sun, 12/11/11, Gary Shannon <[email protected]> wrote:
> Then it occurred to me to wonder about regional variations
> in conlangs. I've never given it any thought myself, but have
> any of you added such variations in your conlangs?
Yes -- both Kerno and Brithenig have regional dialects. Kerno also has a
literary form that is almost a different language from the spoken form.
Padraic
> --gary
Messages in this topic (10)
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3g. Re: Conlang regional variations
Posted by: "Roger Mills" [email protected]
Date: Sun Dec 11, 2011 12:54 pm ((PST))
From: Gary Shannon <[email protected]>
How well developed is your system of regional differences?
==========================================
I haven't written this up because it's still gestating, but the ones I know
about are:
Holundan Kash: /mb, nd, ndZ, ng/ (medial only) :: Kavatu Kash / b, d, dZ, g/
(the two languages are mutually intelligible for the most part).
Kavatu also has the Javanese-like rule of rounding and backing final /a/; thus--
Holunda [tSosa ~ tSos@] to go: Kavatu [tSosQ] as well as in /..aCa#/ thus--
Holunda [kaja] to know : Kavatu [kQjQ] and HOl. [xaNga] Kav. [xQgQ] to pay but
Hol. [matra] broken : Kav. [matrQ]
In Kav. [O] is acceptable instead of [Q}
Holundans joke that Kavatu people are "mush-mouthed"; Kavatu considers its
dialect more "aristocratic".
Messages in this topic (10)
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3h. Re: Conlang regional variations
Posted by: "Douglas Koller" [email protected]
Date: Sun Dec 11, 2011 1:00 pm ((PST))
> Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2011 10:22:54 -0800
> From: [email protected]
> Subject: Conlang regional variations
> To: [email protected]
> Then it occurred to me to wonder about regional variations in
> conlangs. I've never given it any thought myself, but have any of you
> added such variations in your conlangs? There have been times when I
> couldn't make up my mind between two alternatives for some feature of
> a conlang, but if I include regional variations then I can do it both
> ways. I simply utter some mumbo-jumbo like: "it's done the first way
> in the northern highlands, but in the southern coastal regions they do
> it differently." That way I keep my cake and eat it too, as they say
> in the eastern provinces (The famous Schrödinger's cake paradox.).
> How well developed is your system of regional differences?
Not well developed at all. In the Conlang Ethnologue, I listed three dialects:
Psersaus in the Northeast, Mvílsís in the Southwest, and Vdözçebsös or Inner
Mountain. Since Gdhírs, the capital, is in Psers, the Géarthnuns spoken there
is considered the national standard. The variety spoken up in and at the base
of the Vdözçebs range, being the furthest inland would be the most
conservative. So stuff that I've listed as "archaic" and/or "poetic" in the
lexicon would still be spoken here. Most notably, with words like
"ngarebs/ngurebs" (dog) and "sfaikh/sfükh" (die), the former are northeastern
or "modern" and the latter, Inner Mountain. There are some words of the "ebon"
or "yclept" sort which are still used there. Too, the letter "zç" has an
alternate reading of "kw", so in words where either pronunciation is possible,
Inner Mountain will lean toward "kw". One can also imagine some hypercorrected
"zç" readings in places where it should not occur by Inner Mountain speakers
trying to sound more sophisticated. The overall effect is that, on the better
end of the spectrum, people find it quaint and feel nostalgic about simpler,
happier times in a bucolic setting, but on the less charitable end, surly
critics may complain it sounds like rube central. I have no idea what's going
on in Mvíls. Kou
Messages in this topic (10)
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3i. Re: Conlang regional variations
Posted by: "Herman Miller" [email protected]
Date: Sun Dec 11, 2011 2:55 pm ((PST))
On 12/11/2011 1:22 PM, Gary Shannon wrote:
> I'm studying some interesting regional variations in Spanish,
> specifically a half dozen or more diminutive endings each of which has
> a different, and often overlapping, geographical distribution and
> different rules for use in different regions. Another example from
> Spanish is the use of tú, vos, and vosotros.
>
> Then it occurred to me to wonder about regional variations in
> conlangs. I've never given it any thought myself, but have any of you
> added such variations in your conlangs? There have been times when I
> couldn't make up my mind between two alternatives for some feature of
> a conlang, but if I include regional variations then I can do it both
> ways. I simply utter some mumbo-jumbo like: "it's done the first way
> in the northern highlands, but in the southern coastal regions they do
> it differently." That way I keep my cake and eat it too, as they say
> in the eastern provinces (The famous Schrödinger's cake paradox.).
>
> How well developed is your system of regional differences?
>
> --gary
Not well developed at all for Tirelat, since I don't even have a map! I
suppose I ought to come up with a map of the Sangari world one day, but
that's something I haven't done yet. There are variations in Tirelat
phonology, and probably they have something to do with geography. I
suppose I can also use the excuse of regional differences to explain
grammatical and vocabulary-related discrepancies in some of the relay
translations.
Olaetian has a few different standards for pronunciation that are
associated with different regions, and over the years I've switched back
and forth between a couple of different versions (which explains why I
used to call it "Olaetyan"; the vowel /i/ preceding another vowel is
pronounced [j] in the dialect I was using at the time).
Messages in this topic (10)
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3j. Re: Conlang regional variations
Posted by: "Jan van Steenbergen" [email protected]
Date: Sun Dec 11, 2011 6:15 pm ((PST))
--- Padraic Brown skrzypszy:
> > Then it occurred to me to wonder about regional variations
> > in conlangs. I've never given it any thought myself, but have
> > any of you added such variations in your conlangs?
>
> Yes -- both Kerno and Brithenig have regional dialects. Kerno also has a
> literary form that is almost a different language from the spoken form.
I think that's part of the fun! :)
Wenedyk does have several dialects, but only one of them is really elaborated,
Šležan. Basically, Šležan is not really a dialect, but more like a separate
language. In the very beginning, I wasn't sure if I wanted to build a romlang
based exclusively on Polish or rather a more generically Slavic one. For
Wenedyk, I chose the former solution, but later I decided to try the latter as
well. So in a way, Šležan is what Wenedyk cóuld have become, but didn't.
I have thought about other dialects as well, but never really got around to
describing them. Most of them are mentioned, but except for a feature or two I
haven't worked them out into details.
Because one of the early stages of Wenedyk (GMP-wise) is pretty similar to
Proto-Slavic, it is of course easy and tempting to follow the patterns of other
Slavic languages and see what happens. I've tried that with Ukrainian, Czech,
Slovene and Serbo-Croat. But nothing that would be worth adding to a website.
Vozgian is a different story. It has about five major dialects, which are about
equal to each other. I've worked out sound changes for each of them.
Slovianski, again, is a completely different story. In a way, every Slavic
language can be treated as a regional dialect. I have worked out several
methods for "flavourisation", i.e. manipulating it in such way that it can
either be mixed easily with the user's own language or to make it more similar
to the language of one's target group.
Cheers,
Jan
Messages in this topic (10)
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4a. Väder/kläd er på nors k
Posted by: "Douglas Koller" [email protected]
Date: Sun Dec 11, 2011 1:37 pm ((PST))
Okay, so I'm watching this TV program about the joys of Norway, they're talking
about what sturdy Viking stock Norwegians are made of and how they have
school-age children romping about in inclement weather conditions to toughen
'em up, and this one Norwegian guy says, "In Norway, we have a saying: 'There
is no bad weather, only bad clothing.'" So, like the good linguophile that I
am, I scream at the television,"What is it in Norwegian, you git?!" But then I
figured that I ought to be able to do this myself. So I hit the dictionary and
find that "vær" and "klær" are rhymes, and assume that if this is something you
blithely goad shivering, kvetching Norwegian children with, it must be a pithy
little couplet.
On my first run, I ended up with:
Det finnes inget dåligt vær,
Det finnes bare dålige klær.
I then run a google search to see if I'm close, and I find the Swedish:
Det finns inget dåligt väder, bara dåliga kläder.
Which appears to be the way one says it, so a partial 'hurrah' for me. So,
trying to Norwegize it, I try:
Det finnes inget dåligt vær, bare dålige klær.
Further peregrination on Google reveals that you don't add neuter "-t" in
Norwegian on adjs. ending in "-ig", "-t", or "-sk" (who knew?), so I guess
there's no "västkustskt kök" for Norwegians, only "vestkystsk" :(
So,
1) Det finnes inget dålig vær, bare dålige klær. My question is, is this it?
Google translation, which is hardly the final arbiter, offered: 2) Det finnes
ikke dålig vær, bare dålige klær. Which is fine, but not exactly the same. Is
1) grammatically valid, and 2) is just the way it's said, or is 1) off somehow?
ObConlang: In Géarthnuns: Fe gdonögs vebuteg (la), arzhö sa aléhans vebuten la
miçnakh.indef.art.-neg. weather-nom./neg. bad-nom./neg. (aux.-pres), but
indef.art.-aff. clothing-nom./aff. bad-nom./aff. pres. exist You can drop the
first "la" with an added comma: Fe gdonögs vebuteg, arzhö sa aléhans vebuten,
la miçnakh. Kou
Messages in this topic (2)
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4b. Re: Väder/kläd er på nors k
Posted by: "Koppa Dasao" [email protected]
Date: Sun Dec 11, 2011 2:12 pm ((PST))
2011/12/11 Douglas Koller <[email protected]>:
> Okay, so I'm watching this TV program about the joys of Norway,
Excuse me? Joys of Norway? That's just propaganda.
> they're talking about what sturdy Viking stock Norwegians are made of and how
> they have school-age children romping about in inclement weather conditions
> to toughen 'em up, and this one Norwegian guy says, "In Norway, we have a
> saying: 'There is no bad weather, only bad clothing.'" So, like the good
> linguophile that I am, I scream at the television,"What is it in Norwegian,
> you git?!" But then I figured that I ought to be able to do this myself. So I
> hit the dictionary and find that "vær" and "klær" are rhymes, and assume that
> if this is something you blithely goad shivering, kvetching Norwegian
> children with, it must be a pithy little couplet.
>
> On my first run, I ended up with:
>
> Det finnes inget dåligt vær,
> Det finnes bare dålige klær.
>
> I then run a google search to see if I'm close, and I find the Swedish:
>
> Det finns inget dåligt väder, bara dåliga kläder.
>
> Which appears to be the way one says it, so a partial 'hurrah' for me. So,
> trying to Norwegize it, I try:
>
> Det finnes inget dåligt vær, bare dålige klær.
>
> Further peregrination on Google reveals that you don't add neuter "-t" in
> Norwegian on adjs. ending in "-ig", "-t", or "-sk" (who knew?), so I guess
> there's no "västkustskt kök" for Norwegians, only "vestkystsk" :(
Vestkystsk?? That's a tongue twister even for Norwegians. Better try
vestlandsk.. Although Austrian follows the rule, østerriksk..
>
> So,
>
> 1) Det finnes inget dålig vær, bare dålige klær. My question is, is this it?
Not quite. You may say it, but the more correct proverb is "Det finnes
ikke dårlig vær, bare dårlige klær". Or if you really wanna go native,
"Det fins'kje dårlig vær, bare dårlig' klær. /de finÊe dÉrli vær, bare
dÉrli klær/"
> Google translation, which is hardly the final arbiter, offered: 2) Det finnes
> ikke dålig vær, bare dålige klær. Which is fine, but not exactly the same. Is
> 1) grammatically valid, and 2) is just the way it's said, or is 1) off
> somehow?
Both are a bit off. Inget should be intet, and you're missing the r in
dårlig in both cases.
> ObConlang: In Géarthnuns: Fe gdonögs vebuteg (la), arzhö sa aléhans vebuten
> la miçnakh.indef.art.-neg. weather-nom./neg. bad-nom./neg. (aux.-pres), but
> indef.art.-aff. clothing-nom./aff. bad-nom./aff. pres. exist You can drop the
> first "la" with an added comma: Fe gdonögs vebuteg, arzhö sa aléhans vebuten,
> la miçnakh. Kou
>
In Delang it would be, ÐÐ½Ñ ÆÅе не зепагҩδа ненаÑ, нҩ
зеѡеÑÑÑÑ Ð½Ð¸Ñе.
/ani fɹe ne zepa:gÉda nenaz nÉ zewetitj nÊte/ Not exactly the same
sound as Norwegian, I think.
Koppa Dasao
___
Norway isn't the solution, but the appendix that's cut out!
Messages in this topic (2)
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5.1. Re: OT: ge ndered usa ge of "fia ncé(e)" -- plus obCo nlang vo
Posted by: "Douglas Koller" [email protected]
Date: Sun Dec 11, 2011 2:12 pm ((PST))
> Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2011 14:18:22 -0500
> From: [email protected]
> Subject: OT: gendered usage of "fiancé(e)" -- plus obConlang vocabulary
> prompt
> To: [email protected]
> ObConlang: does your conlang have specific terms for "future
> wife/husband"? Are such terms gendered in their reference to persons
> of a specific gender or in how speakers of each gender use them?
There were no such words, but a quick gambol through the lexicon gave me plenty
to work with, so "yea!". Back in the days of the raging gay marriage issue in
the US, I decided to coin gay specific terms for spouses: lebs - husband in a
straight couplebleths - husband in a gay coupleírévens - wife in a straight
couple (also archaic "zhaguts')vériths - wife in a gay couple The custom
extended to royals: fsebs - consort to gay kingçüns - consort to straight
queenats - consort to lesbian queenmerens - consort to straight king Oddly,
widowhood is not totally parallel, the gay/straight distinction prevailing over
the male/female: öilachers - widow(er) of a heterosexual marriagezçinars -
widow(er) of a homosexual marriage "spouse" has only one term "zdarsölíörs"
(wouldn't you just need the one term on a legal document?) And "significant
other", "boyfriend", "girlfriend" are all lumped together under "víesans"
(this, I suppose might change. But doesn't a little asymmetry add some
naturalness?) Meanwhile, "bride" and "bridegroom" take the usual four-way
split: habs/hars - straight/gay bridegroomhats/hans - straight/gay bride There
are words for "engage", "engagement" -- "çelhail", "çelhails". A little folk
etymology can have me linking this to "hal", "hang a placard"like you would on
a mailbox, or a shop sign. "puskehal" means "reserve" like a hotel room or
restaurant table, from the custom of placing a card on the reserved space.
Since "hal" to "hail" is merely the addition of a diacritic, a custom could
arise of "taking the next step", so to speak. So "çelhail" is really like the
Chinese notion of è¨å© (ding4hun1). And the new words for fiancé(e) become:
çelhabs/çelhars - straight/gay groom-to-beçelats/çelhans - straight/gay bride
to be These would not be words people would normally refer to themselves or
others as, like è¨å©å¤« or è¨å©å¦», strictly legal usage. Kou
Messages in this topic (35)
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6a. A sort of "lexicalized syntax"-- has this been done before?
Posted by: "Matthew Martin" [email protected]
Date: Sun Dec 11, 2011 7:57 pm ((PST))
I was reading "Atoms of Language" and got the idea from the book to create a
conlang where basic word order (SVO, OVS, OSV, etc) depended on the particular
verb and the branching direction depended on the particular adjective (some
branch left, some right). E.g. sentences with the verb "to eat" might be OVS,
but
sentences with the main verb "to snore" might be OSV.
I think the author said this was unattested in natlangs. Has it already been
done
conlangs?
I've been calling this "lexicalized syntax" but a google search seems to imply
that
this is this bit of jargon is already being used to describe what sounds like
idioms-
- memorized phrases that are that way because they are memorized as a block.
Here is the longer post I wrote...
http://www.suburbandestiny.com/conlang/?p=484
Matthew Martin
Messages in this topic (2)
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6b. Re: A sort of "lexicalized syntax"-- has this been done before?
Posted by: "Matthew Turnbull" [email protected]
Date: Sun Dec 11, 2011 8:13 pm ((PST))
This is kind of a cool idea, maybe call if lexically determined
syntax? I doubt I would ever use a system like this in a language,
since I tend to shy away from grammatical features that care what
lexeme you're using. My main language only has one irregularity (so
far) in that one verb is defective for durative aspect, so it takes
punctual in all cases, maybe I should expand it by analogy?
On 12/11/11, Matthew Martin <[email protected]> wrote:
> I was reading "Atoms of Language" and got the idea from the book to create a
> conlang where basic word order (SVO, OVS, OSV, etc) depended on the
> particular
> verb and the branching direction depended on the particular adjective (some
> branch left, some right). E.g. sentences with the verb "to eat" might be
> OVS, but
> sentences with the main verb "to snore" might be OSV.
>
> I think the author said this was unattested in natlangs. Has it already been
> done
> conlangs?
>
> I've been calling this "lexicalized syntax" but a google search seems to
> imply that
> this is this bit of jargon is already being used to describe what sounds
> like idioms-
> - memorized phrases that are that way because they are memorized as a block.
>
> Here is the longer post I wrote...
> http://www.suburbandestiny.com/conlang/?p=484
>
> Matthew Martin
>
--
Sent from my mobile device
Messages in this topic (2)
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