There are 23 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. Re: conlang cards
From: Koppa Dasao
2a. Re: A Series of Musings on Unusual Features
From: Wm Annis
2b. Re: A Series of Musings on Unusual Features
From: Jörg Rhiemeier
2c. Re: A Series of Musings on Unusual Features
From: Logan Kearsley
2d. Re: A Series of Musings on Unusual Features
From: Padraic Brown
3a. Re: A Self-Segmenting Orthography
From: David McCann
4a. Re: Oh great joy!
From: David McCann
5. tiffanie3
From: Aidan Grey
6a. Re: Viagra?? WAS: tiffanie3
From: Koppa Dasao
6b. Re: Viagra?? WAS: tiffanie3
From: Sam Stutter
6c. Re: Viagra?? WAS: tiffanie3
From: Koppa Dasao
6d. Re: Viagra?? WAS: tiffanie3
From: Matthew Turnbull
6e. Re: Viagra?? WAS: tiffanie3
From: Koppa Dasao
6f. Re: Viagra?? WAS: tiffanie3
From: Sam Stutter
7a. Re: New Blog Post: Moten Part IV
From: neo gu
7b. Re: New Blog Post: Moten Part IV
From: Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets
8a. Re: Natlang question
From: Sam Stutter
8b. Re: Natlang question
From: Garth Wallace
8c. Re: Natlang question
From: Luke Fleischman
9a. Re: CHAT: Returned...
From: Matthew Turnbull
10a. Conlang Textbook Template
From: Gary Shannon
10b. Re: Conlang Textbook Template
From: MorphemeAddict
11. Palenque
From: Wesley Parish
Messages
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1a. Re: conlang cards
Posted by: "Koppa Dasao" [email protected]
Date: Wed Dec 21, 2011 5:50 am ((PST))
ÐÒ©Ð½Ñ Ð¬Ð°ÅÎ´Æ Ò©Ð½Ñ Ð²Ð°Ñ! I guess I'm not the only one who's tardy,
then. I
got 3 cards left, although one of them are already composed, but not
yet written. If anyone wonders why, I'll tell I've just had too much.
First me ending up in hospital more dead than alive, then my landlady
decided to leave her body standing in the stairs just behind the wall
to the left of me, a week with a virus... Not a good year for me,
2011. Fortunately it's only 10 days left. I just hope Karma hasn't
more stuff to smash my head open with. But hopefully I'll get Mia's
out today or tomorrow.
Koppa Dasao
___
Norway isn't the solution, but the appendix that's cut out!
2011/12/21 Logan Kearsley <[email protected]>:
> On 20 December 2011 20:17, Amanda Babcock Furrow <[email protected]> wrote:
>> On Tue, Dec 20, 2011 at 09:06:25PM -0500, Mia Harper (Soderquist) wrote:
>>
>>> I am still getting mine together too. When I realized it might take me
>>> a bit to get my act together, I decided I'd write them out as "Happy
>>> New Year" cards. :)
>>
>> I have just sent mine out today! :) I've been enjoying getting the cards
>> from more sensible people than myself who actually got them out early.
>> My husband says I get the best holiday cards.
>
> Mine's going out tomorrow. The one I got is making for a great bit of
> deciphering fun. I kinda underestimated the impact of a cruddy finals
> schedule on my ability to get stuff in the mail.
>
> I think I shall have to start on next year's cards as soon as
> Christmas is over, just to make sure I've got plenty to contribute to
> a greater level of participation.
>
> -l.
Messages in this topic (6)
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2a. Re: A Series of Musings on Unusual Features
Posted by: "Wm Annis" [email protected]
Date: Wed Dec 21, 2011 6:06 am ((PST))
On Tue, Dec 20, 2011 at 7:15 PM, Logan Kearsley <[email protected]> wrote:
> And finally- is there a reasonable way for a language to develop a
> number system where the unmarked form is neither singular nor plural,
> but perhaps paucal or something like that?
Languages of the Tanoan language family *almost* did that. There are
nouns where the unmarked form is singular, but there are plenty where it
is not:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiowa_language#Number_inflection
http://scholarspace.manoa.hawaii.edu/bitstream/handle/10125/4451/04sutton.pdf
--
wm
Messages in this topic (6)
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2b. Re: A Series of Musings on Unusual Features
Posted by: "Jörg Rhiemeier" [email protected]
Date: Wed Dec 21, 2011 7:55 am ((PST))
Hallo conlangers!
On Wednesday 21 December 2011 02:15:10 Logan Kearsley wrote:
> I've got a little collection of conlangy thoughts that've been
> percolating for a while. Consider this to be an implicit list of
> AN/CADEW?-es.
>
> Thought #1: Musings on Ad-things.
>
> Adpositional phrases frequently behave a lot like adjective and adverb
> phrases. So, how might the categories be combined?
>
> Adpositions could be considered adjective/adverbs that happen to be
> able to take complements / objects. If the language distinguishes
> adjectives and adverbs morphologically, this provides an automatic
> solution to disambiguating adverbial and adjectival adpositions, since
> they really are just adverbs and adjectives anyway.
In my conlang Old Albic, prepositions are case forms of nouns
expressing various relationships, and their objects are coded
as (inalienable) possessors, like the English construction
'in front of the house', which translates as _anthal amal
cathal_, where _anthal_ is the locative case of _anth_ 'front'
(related to _antha_ 'face').
--
... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
http://www.joerg-rhiemeier.de/Conlang/index.html
"Bêsel asa Êm, a Êm atha cvanthal a cvanth atha Êmel." - SiM 1:1
Messages in this topic (6)
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2c. Re: A Series of Musings on Unusual Features
Posted by: "Logan Kearsley" [email protected]
Date: Wed Dec 21, 2011 11:30 am ((PST))
On 21 December 2011 01:39, Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets
<[email protected]> wrote:
> On 21 December 2011 02:15, Logan Kearsley <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> Adpositional phrases frequently behave a lot like adjective and adverb
>> phrases. So, how might the categories be combined?
>>
>>
> Moten doesn't have anything that look like adverbs. All those are rendered
> with adverbial phrases, so that is a way to combine them :) .
Indeed. There are languages like Tagalog that require a special
linking morpheme to use adjectives or other modifiers attributively;
if that's re-interpreted as an adposition, I can see that leading to
an elimination of both adjectives and adverbs, with original
adjectives and adverbs reinterpreted as nouns inside adpositional
phrases. Which I think would end up looking a lot like the first
system I proposed, where adpositions are just adjectives or adverbs
that can take objects, except that one-word adjectives would be
impossible.
>> Going off in a different direction, lots of languages have 'unusual'
>> demonstratives, but how about just regular personal pronouns that
>> encode things like absolute location or some other physical state;
>> like "2ndP Climbing a Tree" vs. "2ndP on the Ground" vs. "2ndP
>> Indoors", or "3rdP Wet Due to Rain" vs. "3rdP Dry Oustide" vs. "3rdP
>> Dry Because of Being Indoors".
>>
> Could be extended as a classifier-like system: sheets of paper cannot
> easily be kept upright, so they would always be referred to using the "3rdP
> Lying Down" pronoun :) .
Oo, neat. Particularly if this happened to be combined with the idea
of using pronouns as generic determiners, which in this case would
have to agree with their nominals in class. Then you could have
minimal pairs distinguished by class with obligatory determiners.
On 21 December 2011 07:06, Wm Annis <[email protected]> wrote:> On
Tue, Dec 20, 2011 at 7:15 PM, Logan Kearsley <[email protected]>
wrote:>> And finally- is there a reasonable way for a language to
develop a>> number system where the unmarked form is neither singular
nor plural,>> but perhaps paucal or something like that?>> Languages
of the Tanoan language family *almost* did that. There are> nouns
where the unmarked form is singular, but there are plenty where it> is
not:>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiowa_language#Number_inflection>
http://scholarspace.manoa.hawaii.edu/bitstream/handle/10125/4451/04sutton.pdf
That is even weirder than what I had in mind. It makes sense from an
evolutionary perspective, though; there are, after all, certain
classes of nouns that are typically used in non-singular numbers, and
one can imagine just those semantic classes developing into separate
inflectional classes.
The real trick, then, is coming up with a situation where the behavior
of one particular non-singular class got extended to cover all the
nouns in a language.
Here's another thought- perhaps you could get it by starting out with
a language that doesn't mark number, and then get certain adjectives
or determiners glommed on and re-analysed as number inflections for
specifically singular or specifically plural, leaving the simplex form
indefinite. Then as number inflection becomes obligatory, you could
have the indefinite simplex form shifting to a paucal meaning.
On 21 December 2011 08:55, Jörg Rhiemeier <[email protected]> wrote:
[...]
> In my conlang Old Albic, prepositions are case forms of nouns
> expressing various relationships, and their objects are coded
> as (inalienable) possessors, like the English construction
> 'in front of the house', which translates as _anthal amal
> cathal_, where _anthal_ is the locative case of _anth_ 'front'
> (related to _antha_ 'face').
That seems to be a common means of forming new prepositions; lots of
Russian prepositions are fossilized noun case forms, or
noun-preposition compounds which as a result always take genitive
case.
Add in English's (or Moten's) adjectival nouns, and then you end up
with adverbs, adjectives, and prepositions all collapsed into nouns.
-l.
Messages in this topic (6)
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2d. Re: A Series of Musings on Unusual Features
Posted by: "Padraic Brown" [email protected]
Date: Thu Dec 22, 2011 5:43 am ((PST))
--- On Tue, 12/20/11, Logan Kearsley <[email protected]> wrote:
> And finally- is there a reasonable way for a language to
> develop a number system where the unmarked form is neither singular
> nor plural, but perhaps paucal or something like that?
I mentioned a while back that Ytuunic, one of the languages of the World,
does this. In that case, it's the dual that is unmarked. Ytuunic people
think that most anything single is defective or imperfect, so the singular
number actually translates best as "half" or "broken off". A few things
that are seen as perfect in their oneness are treated differently, like
the Sun. There's only one, and that's alright, cos if there were two, then
it would be too bright at night. This special form is formally equivalent
to the dual, since it's seen as a default. Such words as fit this
category are not understood to be "half" of a normally dual set or
"inperfect" in any way. The language's other grammatical numbers are
paired dual and plural.
Padraic
> -l.
Messages in this topic (6)
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3a. Re: A Self-Segmenting Orthography
Posted by: "David McCann" [email protected]
Date: Wed Dec 21, 2011 8:23 am ((PST))
On Tue, 20 Dec 2011 21:12:43 +0100
Jörg Rhiemeier <[email protected]> wrote:
> Right. White space is only *one* way of marking word boundaries;
> it could just as well be done with interpuncts (AFAIK, several
> languages of ancient Italy did that)
There's even a Latin tomb inscription from the 3rd century BC with
interpuncts. It's interesting that they weren't generally taken over
from Semitic. On reflection, the popularity of word division when it
was re-introduced was probably because people were writing languages of
which they were not native speakers: Latin, Attic Greek.
Messages in this topic (25)
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4a. Re: Oh great joy!
Posted by: "David McCann" [email protected]
Date: Wed Dec 21, 2011 8:32 am ((PST))
On Tue, 20 Dec 2011 18:26:09 +0000
And Rosta <[email protected]> wrote:
> But in historical linguistics, 'internal history' covers how the
> language itself has changed and 'external history' covers the
> sociocultural influences on the language. E.g. for English, loss of
> inflection is part of internal history and diglossia in the Danelaw
> is part of external history.
>
> I use the terms 'intrafictional' and 'extrafictional' for the
> distinction Eric asked about.
But it's hardly likely to cause confusion to use the same term
differently for conlangs and natlangs. I suppose you could say a
discussion of Orsinian loans in Liburnese is a case of external history
in one sense and internal history in the other, but I'm all for
wielding Occam's Razor; there are too many terms in linguistics already.
Messages in this topic (13)
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5. tiffanie3
Posted by: "Aidan Grey" [email protected]
Date: Wed Dec 21, 2011 9:44 am ((PST))
Dear Sir,
http://www.spassvoegel-woellstein.de/folder/homehere.html?vjhainID=76
Wed, 21 Dec 2011 18:43:58
__________________
"Why, after I talked with you at noon, about teasing Caleb, you began to treat
him very kindly." (c) Trevares wwfcb6969
Messages in this topic (1)
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6a. Re: Viagra?? WAS: tiffanie3
Posted by: "Koppa Dasao" [email protected]
Date: Wed Dec 21, 2011 10:09 am ((PST))
What the heck? If you really want a stiff one, take Viagra with
lime... You'll never have a floppy afterwards...
Either, mr. Gray goofed, or mr. Gray really goofed. Anyway, I hope he
changes to mr. Red...
Koppa Dasao
___
Norway isn't the solution, but the appendix that's cut out!
2011/12/21 Aidan Grey <[email protected]>:
> Dear Sir,
> http://www.spassvoegel-woellstein.de/folder/homehere.html?vjhainID=76
>
> Wed, 21 Dec 2011 18:43:58
> __________________
> "Why, after I talked with you at noon, about teasing Caleb, you began to
> treat him very kindly." (c) Trevares wwfcb6969
Messages in this topic (6)
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6b. Re: Viagra?? WAS: tiffanie3
Posted by: "Sam Stutter" [email protected]
Date: Wed Dec 21, 2011 10:12 am ((PST))
I was hoping someone was going to click that link so I didn't have to :)
Aidan, change your password :)
Sam Stutter
[email protected]
"No e na il cu barri"
On 21 Dec 2011, at 18:08, Koppa Dasao wrote:
> What the heck? If you really want a stiff one, take Viagra with
> lime... You'll never have a floppy afterwards...
>
> Either, mr. Gray goofed, or mr. Gray really goofed. Anyway, I hope he
> changes to mr. Red...
>
> Koppa Dasao
> ___
> Norway isn't the solution, but the appendix that's cut out!
>
>
>
> 2011/12/21 Aidan Grey <[email protected]>:
>> Dear Sir,
>> http://www.spassvoegel-woellstein.de/folder/homehere.html?vjhainID=76
>>
>> Wed, 21 Dec 2011 18:43:58
>> __________________
>> "Why, after I talked with you at noon, about teasing Caleb, you began to
>> treat him very kindly." (c) Trevares wwfcb6969
Messages in this topic (6)
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6c. Re: Viagra?? WAS: tiffanie3
Posted by: "Koppa Dasao" [email protected]
Date: Wed Dec 21, 2011 10:16 am ((PST))
I'll add to that that mr. Red should get himself a good anti-viagral
software too.
Koppa Dasao
___
Norway isn't the solution, but the appendix that's cut out!
2011/12/21 Sam Stutter <[email protected]>:
> I was hoping someone was going to click that link so I didn't have to :)
>
> Aidan, change your password :)
>
> Sam Stutter
> [email protected]
> "No e na il cu barri"
>
> On 21 Dec 2011, at 18:08, Koppa Dasao wrote:
>
>> What the heck? If you really want a stiff one, take Viagra with
>> lime... You'll never have a floppy afterwards...
>>
>> Either, mr. Gray goofed, or mr. Gray really goofed. Anyway, I hope he
>> changes to mr. Red...
>>
>> Koppa Dasao
>> ___
>> Norway isn't the solution, but the appendix that's cut out!
>>
>>
>>
>> 2011/12/21 Aidan Grey <[email protected]>:
>>> Dear Sir,
>>> http://www.spassvoegel-woellstein.de/folder/homehere.html?vjhainID=76
>>>
>>> Wed, 21 Dec 2011 18:43:58
>>> __________________
>>> "Why, after I talked with you at noon, about teasing Caleb, you began to
>>> treat him very kindly." (c) Trevares wwfcb6969
Messages in this topic (6)
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6d. Re: Viagra?? WAS: tiffanie3
Posted by: "Matthew Turnbull" [email protected]
Date: Wed Dec 21, 2011 1:10 pm ((PST))
my computer wouldn't let me click the link :( I guess that's a good thing
most of the time...
On Wed, Dec 21, 2011 at 12:16 PM, Koppa Dasao <[email protected]> wrote:
> I'll add to that that mr. Red should get himself a good anti-viagral
> software too.
>
> Koppa Dasao
> ___
> Norway isn't the solution, but the appendix that's cut out!
>
>
>
> 2011/12/21 Sam Stutter <[email protected]>:
> > I was hoping someone was going to click that link so I didn't have to :)
> >
> > Aidan, change your password :)
> >
> > Sam Stutter
> > [email protected]
> > "No e na il cu barri"
> >
> > On 21 Dec 2011, at 18:08, Koppa Dasao wrote:
> >
> >> What the heck? If you really want a stiff one, take Viagra with
> >> lime... You'll never have a floppy afterwards...
> >>
> >> Either, mr. Gray goofed, or mr. Gray really goofed. Anyway, I hope he
> >> changes to mr. Red...
> >>
> >> Koppa Dasao
> >> ___
> >> Norway isn't the solution, but the appendix that's cut out!
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> 2011/12/21 Aidan Grey <[email protected]>:
> >>> Dear Sir,
> >>> http://www.spassvoegel-woellstein.de/folder/homehere.html?vjhainID=76
> >>>
> >>> Wed, 21 Dec 2011 18:43:58
> >>> __________________
> >>> "Why, after I talked with you at noon, about teasing Caleb, you began
> to treat him very kindly." (c) Trevares wwfcb6969
>
Messages in this topic (6)
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6e. Re: Viagra?? WAS: tiffanie3
Posted by: "Koppa Dasao" [email protected]
Date: Wed Dec 21, 2011 1:28 pm ((PST))
Oh, don't worry, Matthew. It's nothing important. You'll just end up
at a Russian shop trying to sell you Viagra. Unfortunately they don't
sell it with lime or grape, which you really should use if you want an
erection that stands up to the wrecking ball. The only way to bring
such an erection down is to make an emergency call to a demolition
company and have them bring it down by C4. Although it's unlikely you
would rebuild on the site shortly after the demolition, though. You're
more likely to keep it as a graveled parking lot for broken down
vehicles, at least for a while.
Koppa Dasao
___
Norway isn't the solution, but the appendix that's cut out!
2011/12/21 Matthew Turnbull <[email protected]>:
> my computer wouldn't let me click the link :( I guess that's a good thing
> most of the time...
>
> On Wed, Dec 21, 2011 at 12:16 PM, Koppa Dasao <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> I'll add to that that mr. Red should get himself a good anti-viagral
>> software too.
>>
>> Koppa Dasao
>> ___
>> Norway isn't the solution, but the appendix that's cut out!
>>
>>
>>
>> 2011/12/21 Sam Stutter <[email protected]>:
>> > I was hoping someone was going to click that link so I didn't have to :)
>> >
>> > Aidan, change your password :)
>> >
>> > Sam Stutter
>> > [email protected]
>> > "No e na il cu barri"
>> >
>> > On 21 Dec 2011, at 18:08, Koppa Dasao wrote:
>> >
>> >> What the heck? If you really want a stiff one, take Viagra with
>> >> lime... You'll never have a floppy afterwards...
>> >>
>> >> Either, mr. Gray goofed, or mr. Gray really goofed. Anyway, I hope he
>> >> changes to mr. Red...
>> >>
>> >> Koppa Dasao
>> >> ___
>> >> Norway isn't the solution, but the appendix that's cut out!
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> 2011/12/21 Aidan Grey <[email protected]>:
>> >>> Dear Sir,
>> >>> http://www.spassvoegel-woellstein.de/folder/homehere.html?vjhainID=76
>> >>>
>> >>> Wed, 21 Dec 2011 18:43:58
>> >>> __________________
>> >>> "Why, after I talked with you at noon, about teasing Caleb, you began
>> to treat him very kindly." (c) Trevares wwfcb6969
>>
Messages in this topic (6)
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6f. Re: Viagra?? WAS: tiffanie3
Posted by: "Sam Stutter" [email protected]
Date: Wed Dec 21, 2011 2:53 pm ((PST))
There's a much better way.
Listen to Berio's "Sinfonia" (3rd movement) until you *almost* understand it
and then read the collected essays of M.M. Bakhtin. Viagra is for losers.
Come to think of it, sex, in general, is for losers.
Right, so, yeah. Conlanging!
On 21 Dec 2011, at 21:27, Koppa Dasao wrote:
> Oh, don't worry, Matthew. It's nothing important. You'll just end up
> at a Russian shop trying to sell you Viagra. Unfortunately they don't
> sell it with lime or grape, which you really should use if you want an
> erection that stands up to the wrecking ball. The only way to bring
> such an erection down is to make an emergency call to a demolition
> company and have them bring it down by C4. Although it's unlikely you
> would rebuild on the site shortly after the demolition, though. You're
> more likely to keep it as a graveled parking lot for broken down
> vehicles, at least for a while.
>
> Koppa Dasao
> ___
> Norway isn't the solution, but the appendix that's cut out!
>
>
>
> 2011/12/21 Matthew Turnbull <[email protected]>:
>> my computer wouldn't let me click the link :( I guess that's a good thing
>> most of the time...
>>
>> On Wed, Dec 21, 2011 at 12:16 PM, Koppa Dasao <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> I'll add to that that mr. Red should get himself a good anti-viagral
>>> software too.
>>>
>>> Koppa Dasao
>>> ___
>>> Norway isn't the solution, but the appendix that's cut out!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 2011/12/21 Sam Stutter <[email protected]>:
>>>> I was hoping someone was going to click that link so I didn't have to :)
>>>>
>>>> Aidan, change your password :)
>>>>
>>>> Sam Stutter
>>>> [email protected]
>>>> "No e na il cu barri"
>>>>
>>>> On 21 Dec 2011, at 18:08, Koppa Dasao wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> What the heck? If you really want a stiff one, take Viagra with
>>>>> lime... You'll never have a floppy afterwards...
>>>>>
>>>>> Either, mr. Gray goofed, or mr. Gray really goofed. Anyway, I hope he
>>>>> changes to mr. Red...
>>>>>
>>>>> Koppa Dasao
>>>>> ___
>>>>> Norway isn't the solution, but the appendix that's cut out!
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 2011/12/21 Aidan Grey <[email protected]>:
>>>>>> Dear Sir,
>>>>>> http://www.spassvoegel-woellstein.de/folder/homehere.html?vjhainID=76
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Wed, 21 Dec 2011 18:43:58
>>>>>> __________________
>>>>>> "Why, after I talked with you at noon, about teasing Caleb, you began
>>> to treat him very kindly." (c) Trevares wwfcb6969
>>>
Messages in this topic (6)
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7a. Re: New Blog Post: Moten Part IV
Posted by: "neo gu" [email protected]
Date: Wed Dec 21, 2011 2:49 pm ((PST))
On Mon, 19 Dec 2011 10:27:06 +0100, Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets
<[email protected]> wrote:
>On 18 December 2011 23:35, neo gu <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> In the next part, you write
>>
>> "Bdan ipelda|n todvaj ige: (I) want to keep seeing you (the verb
>> ipe|laj is in the imperfective aspect, while the auxiliary atom is in
>> the desiderative mood)."
>>
>> I think _atom_ in the description is inconsistent with _ige_ in the
>> example.
>
> Why? It's a concatenation of two periphrastic forms: _ipe|laj_ is in
> the imperfective aspect (accusative infinitive + _atom_), and to put
> the whole thing in the desiderative mood the auxiliary _atom_ is put
> in the desiderative mood (genitive participle + _agem_). It's not that
> much different from English forms like "I have been thinking" except
> that the order of elements is opposite.
(looks again) is "todvaj" the form of "atom"??
> The compound periphrastic forms can easily become complicated.
> That's why they are not used that often.
>--
>Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets.
>
>http://christophoronomicon.blogspot.com/
>http://www.christophoronomicon.nl/
Messages in this topic (12)
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7b. Re: New Blog Post: Moten Part IV
Posted by: "Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets" [email protected]
Date: Thu Dec 22, 2011 12:15 am ((PST))
On 21 December 2011 23:49, neo gu <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> (looks again) is "todvaj" the form of "atom"??
>
>
Yes. _Atom_ is the infinitive, formed by adding the circumfix _a- -m_ on
the root _to_. The participle is then formed by adding the suffix _-daj_ to
the root, making _todaj_. In the construction you are referring to, the
auxiliary _atom_ must be put in the desiderative mood, which is formed by
taking the genitive of the participle, followed by a conjugated form of the
auxiliary _agem_. To form the genitive, add the infix/suffix combination
_-v- -j_ to the participle (the infix is always put just before the last
vowel of the stem). Those normally cause complex morphophonological
changes. Luckily, that's not the case with _todaj_: the infix _-v-_ can be
added without change, and the suffix _-j_ simply disappears since the stem
already ends in _-j_. The result is that the genitive form of _todaj_ is
_todvaj_. Add to it a conjugated form of _agem_, for instance the present
_ige_, and you get _todvaj ige_ :) . This form is then used as the
conjugated form of the auxiliary in the construction of _ipe|laj_ in the
imperfective aspect (formed by using the accusative of the infinitive
followed by a conjugated form of the auxiliary _atom_).
It's complicated to describe, but not to actually use. I am far from fluent
in Moten, and can still more or less build periphrastic conjugations on the
fly :) (even compounded periphrastic constructions don't take that much
time: I only have to remember in which order the forms must appear :) ).
The morphophonological rules can be complex, but they make a lot of
phonological sense, so they are easy to internalise. See this post:
http://christophoronomicon.blogspot.com/2009/12/moten-part-ii-nouns-and-pronouns.htmlfor
more information on the cases.
And now I'm curious what kind of comments I will get on this post :) .
Probably a whole lot of o_O ;) .
--
Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets.
http://christophoronomicon.blogspot.com/
http://www.christophoronomicon.nl/
Messages in this topic (12)
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8a. Re: Natlang question
Posted by: "Sam Stutter" [email protected]
Date: Wed Dec 21, 2011 3:01 pm ((PST))
On 20 Dec 2011, at 18:19, Charlie Brickner wrote:
> Maybe it would help to think of the whole phrase.
>
> The storm moved "off of" the shore and onto what? onto the water.
>
> The boat is anchored "off of" the shore and on what? on the water.
>
> The "onshore" patrol is walking on the shore.
>
> I personally have never used the term "onshore patrol". My father was in the
> U.S. Navy and we got to know the term "shore patrol". This was a naval
> police force that helped local police with any problems they encountered with
> the sailors. In other words, they were patroling on the shore and not on
> shipboard.
>
> Charlie
I find it easier to think of it like this: offshore means being as far as to
sea as to be unable to see the shore. Inshore means "in sight of the shore".
I've never heard of onshore, but I presume that does mean *on* the shore.
> I've always been confused by "onshore" vs. "offshore" winds.
I'm pretty certain "onshore" come from off the land and "offshore" come from
the sea, just like northerly winds come from the north.
> Does there exist a natlang where the words for north and south swapped
> meanings?
I can also think of a possible reason; the Earth's magnetic poles being
reversed. Or maybe when they become associated with electrical charge and it
makes scientific sense to reverse them (?)
It's a long time since my physics A-level :)
Messages in this topic (14)
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8b. Re: Natlang question
Posted by: "Garth Wallace" [email protected]
Date: Wed Dec 21, 2011 4:19 pm ((PST))
On 12/21/11, Sam Stutter <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 20 Dec 2011, at 18:19, Charlie Brickner wrote:
>> Maybe it would help to think of the whole phrase.
>>
>> The storm moved "off of" the shore and onto what? onto the water.
>>
>> The boat is anchored "off of" the shore and on what? on the water.
>>
>> The "onshore" patrol is walking on the shore.
>>
>> I personally have never used the term "onshore patrol". My father was in
>> the
>> U.S. Navy and we got to know the term "shore patrol". This was a naval
>> police force that helped local police with any problems they encountered
>> with
>> the sailors. In other words, they were patroling on the shore and not on
>> shipboard.
>>
>> Charlie
>
> I find it easier to think of it like this: offshore means being as far as to
> sea as to be unable to see the shore. Inshore means "in sight of the shore".
> I've never heard of onshore, but I presume that does mean *on* the shore.
>
>> I've always been confused by "onshore" vs. "offshore" winds.
>
> I'm pretty certain "onshore" come from off the land and "offshore" come from
> the sea, just like northerly winds come from the north.
>
>> Does there exist a natlang where the words for north and south swapped
>> meanings?
>
> I can also think of a possible reason; the Earth's magnetic poles being
> reversed. Or maybe when they become associated with electrical charge and it
> makes scientific sense to reverse them (?)
Except that the naming of magnetic poles derives from the geographic
directions, not vice versa. The concept of "that way" necessarily
precedes the invention of the compass.
Messages in this topic (14)
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8c. Re: Natlang question
Posted by: "Luke Fleischman" [email protected]
Date: Wed Dec 21, 2011 4:24 pm ((PST))
Perhaps if a culture moved from the northern hemisphere to the
southern hemisphere, their words for north and south might switch.
On Wed, Dec 21, 2011 at 16:19, Garth Wallace <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 12/21/11, Sam Stutter <[email protected]> wrote:
>> On 20 Dec 2011, at 18:19, Charlie Brickner wrote:
>>> Maybe it would help to think of the whole phrase.
>>>
>>> The storm moved "off of" the shore and onto what? onto the water.
>>>
>>> The boat is anchored "off of" the shore and on what? on the water.
>>>
>>> The "onshore" patrol is walking on the shore.
>>>
>>> I personally have never used the term "onshore patrol". My father was in
>>> the
>>> U.S. Navy and we got to know the term "shore patrol". This was a naval
>>> police force that helped local police with any problems they encountered
>>> with
>>> the sailors. In other words, they were patroling on the shore and not on
>>> shipboard.
>>>
>>> Charlie
>>
>> I find it easier to think of it like this: offshore means being as far as to
>> sea as to be unable to see the shore. Inshore means "in sight of the shore".
>> I've never heard of onshore, but I presume that does mean *on* the shore.
>>
>>> I've always been confused by "onshore" vs. "offshore" winds.
>>
>> I'm pretty certain "onshore" come from off the land and "offshore" come from
>> the sea, just like northerly winds come from the north.
>>
>>> Does there exist a natlang where the words for north and south swapped
>>> meanings?
>>
>> I can also think of a possible reason; the Earth's magnetic poles being
>> reversed. Or maybe when they become associated with electrical charge and it
>> makes scientific sense to reverse them (?)
>
> Except that the naming of magnetic poles derives from the geographic
> directions, not vice versa. The concept of "that way" necessarily
> precedes the invention of the compass.
--
Èyxw59
Messages in this topic (14)
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9a. Re: CHAT: Returned...
Posted by: "Matthew Turnbull" [email protected]
Date: Wed Dec 21, 2011 3:39 pm ((PST))
I'm super looking forward to the post mortem of kenkoliku, I really
enjoyed that project and wish it would've held steam for a little
longer. Hope you get the chance to get one together, I never have :(
On 12/20/11, Mia Harper (Soderquist) <[email protected]> wrote:
> I haven't been around since July. I stayed subscribed and have
> collected a bazillion emails, but I haven't been reading or posting...
> until now. I am back, to whatever degree I can manage.
>
> I should be rewriting the grammar for Teliya Nevashi. Or writing a
> grammar that has the potential to make sense to other people for
> ea-luna (including a few more recent revisions to how it works). Or
> working on a new personal conlang I started outlining objectives for
> in October. Or working on a long-promised collaborative language with
> Thomas Leigh. Or writing a postmortem description of Kenakoliku. (On
> that note... I may be emailing participants in that project for their
> comments.) I have no shortage of conlangish stuff to do, and that
> always puts me in the mood to procrastinate by reading CONLANG
> instead.
>
> Mia.
>
--
Sent from my mobile device
Messages in this topic (2)
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10a. Conlang Textbook Template
Posted by: "Gary Shannon" [email protected]
Date: Wed Dec 21, 2011 7:58 pm ((PST))
I've taken an old out-of-copyright Spanish textbook and scanned it. It
has 50 lessons which are a nice small convenient size for bite-sized
language lessons. What I'm doing is changing it from a Spanish
textbook to a generic language textbook template, as a set of
interactive HTML pages. I'm translating all the exercises to English
and replacing all the grammatical explanations with general
descriptions of which grammatical principles need to be covered in a
given paragraph.
The whole thing will probably take me several more weeks to complete,
but for anyone who might like to use such a template for creating a
conlang textbook, I'm going to make the whole HTML template available.
So far I have the first four lessons ready, which you can view at:
http://fiziwig.com/conlang/template/
The first page explains how to use the template, and the rest of the
pages are the chapter by chapter lesson templates. Wherever you
encounter a word or sentence in double square brackets [[like this]]
that word or sentence needs to be replaced by the author with a
translation into whatever conlang the textbook is meant to be for.
Of course it won't be suitable for all kinds of conlangs, but it
should work for a great many of them, and certainly for IE languages
in general. As always with stuff on my web page, it's there for anyone
to use any way they like.
--gary
Messages in this topic (2)
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10b. Re: Conlang Textbook Template
Posted by: "MorphemeAddict" [email protected]
Date: Thu Dec 22, 2011 12:11 am ((PST))
The layout of your templates matches closely Rick Morneau's lessons for his
Interlinguas: New morphemes, New words, New grammar, Drills.
stevo
On Wed, Dec 21, 2011 at 10:57 PM, Gary Shannon <[email protected]> wrote:
> I've taken an old out-of-copyright Spanish textbook and scanned it. It
> has 50 lessons which are a nice small convenient size for bite-sized
> language lessons. What I'm doing is changing it from a Spanish
> textbook to a generic language textbook template, as a set of
> interactive HTML pages. I'm translating all the exercises to English
> and replacing all the grammatical explanations with general
> descriptions of which grammatical principles need to be covered in a
> given paragraph.
>
> The whole thing will probably take me several more weeks to complete,
> but for anyone who might like to use such a template for creating a
> conlang textbook, I'm going to make the whole HTML template available.
> So far I have the first four lessons ready, which you can view at:
> http://fiziwig.com/conlang/template/
>
> The first page explains how to use the template, and the rest of the
> pages are the chapter by chapter lesson templates. Wherever you
> encounter a word or sentence in double square brackets [[like this]]
> that word or sentence needs to be replaced by the author with a
> translation into whatever conlang the textbook is meant to be for.
>
> Of course it won't be suitable for all kinds of conlangs, but it
> should work for a great many of them, and certainly for IE languages
> in general. As always with stuff on my web page, it's there for anyone
> to use any way they like.
>
> --gary
>
Messages in this topic (2)
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11. Palenque
Posted by: "Wesley Parish" [email protected]
Date: Thu Dec 22, 2011 1:44 am ((PST))
Does anyone have any information on this kiKongo-Kimbundu-Spanish creole?
It reportedly has a Spanish lexicon overlying a set of African morphologies and
syntaxes.
Wesley Parish
"Sharpened hands are happy hands.
"Brim the tinfall with mirthful bands"
- A Deepness in the Sky, Vernor Vinge
"I me. Shape middled me. I would come out into hot!"
I from the spicy that day was overcasked mockingly - it's a symbol of the
other horizon. - emacs : meta x dissociated-press
Messages in this topic (1)
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