There are 19 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. Re: Article Case Marking Without Personal Articles
From: Sam Stutter
1b. Re: Article Case Marking Without Personal Articles
From: George Corley
1c. Re: Article Case Marking Without Personal Articles
From: R A Brown
1d. Re OT question: interlibrary loans
From: Roger Mills
1e. Re: Re OT question: interlibrary loans
From: Chris Peters
1f. Re: Re OT question: interlibrary loans
From: Michael Everson
1g. Re: Article Case Marking Without Personal Articles
From: Padraic Brown
1h. Re: Article Case Marking Without Personal Articles
From: MorphemeAddict
1i. Re: Article Case Marking Without Personal Articles
From: Adam Walker
1j. Re: Article Case Marking Without Personal Articles
From: [email protected]
1k. Re: Article Case Marking Without Personal Articles
From: Roger Mills
1l. Re: Article Case Marking Without Personal Articles
From: George Corley
1m. Re: Article Case Marking Without Personal Articles
From: MorphemeAddict
1n. Re: Article Case Marking Without Personal Articles
From: Charles W Brickner
1o. Re: Article Case Marking Without Personal Articles
From: R A Brown
1p. Re: Article Case Marking Without Personal Articles
From: R A Brown
1q. Re: Article Case Marking Without Personal Articles
From: Padraic Brown
1r. Re: Article Case Marking Without Personal Articles
From: R A Brown
2.1. Re: Articles
From: Roman Rausch
Messages
________________________________________________________________________
1a. Re: Article Case Marking Without Personal Articles
Posted by: "Sam Stutter" [email protected]
Date: Tue Jan 17, 2012 10:27 am ((PST))
I guess we're in an odd situation with quite a lot of proper nouns.
With something like Oxford the origin of the name is pretty clear: ox + ford,
but with Manchester it's a case for etymology: fortified town + breast shaped
hill. AFAIK all anglophone place names (and, I'm guessing, most place names in
the world?) can be traced back to some combination of lexicon words in either
the native language or an invasive language: Weston-super-Mare: west town by
the sea.
Then with surnames it's pretty much exactly the same issue. But with first
names the etymology is often so remote as to be ignored. Girls' names like
"Grace" or "Bella" are pretty easy to interpret but with something like
"Samuel" you're going to be digging around on baby names websites ("God heard"
apparently).
Is Christianity / Are the Abrahamic religions quite unique in having this gulf
between proper noun and origin? I remember someone saying that Christianity is
the only major religion which has its holy land and chief place of pilgrimage
under the authority of a different religion. If so, maybe it's fairer to
translate "Jesus" with the definition of "Joshua": "God is salvation"?
But then again, if I introduce myself in another language, no matter how that
language functions, I will want to be called "Sam" or whatever the nearest
approximation the local speakers can make of it. Entirely translating a name is
only really useful if it represents a particular cultural reference point or if
the individual is attempting to attain a greater level of inclusion into the
culture of the speakers (if he's being baptised, passing a ritual, gaining
citizenship, etc).
With Jesus, the case is, who did the speakers of the language get the word
"Jesus" from and how did they pronounce it? Presumably the first missionaries
or early Christians wouldn't have been too hot on linguistics?
Sam Stutter
[email protected]
"No e na il cu barri"
On 17 Jan 2012, at 08:50, Peter Cyrus wrote:
> "Jesus is not ƶízüz (ƶ = /dz/, ü = /V/), nor yésus, but yëhócua (c = /ts/)."
>
> Jesus was clearly named after the leader whom we call Joshua, or
> Yehoshua, but in his native Aramaic, wouldn't it have been Yeshu?
> It's not fair to trace the derivation further back than the guy
> himself.
>
> For example, you can say that Jimmy Carter's "real" name was James,
> but not that his real name was Yacub.
>
>
> On Mon, Jan 16, 2012 at 11:34 PM, Charlie Brickner
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>> On Mon, 16 Jan 2012 14:42:04 -0700, Logan Kearsley
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> On 16 January 2012 14:28, MorphemeAddict <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>> You could always treat proper nouns as appositives: I gave him, Bob, the
>>>> ball.
>>>
>>> You could, but then what's to distinguish the apposited pronouns from
>>> personal articles? They behave exactly the same way. The point is to
>>> figure out a way of handling the situation without developing personal
>>> articles.
>>>
>>> -l.
>>
>> I think that’s a great idea! When I bring a foreign name into Senjecas I
>> match
>> the phonology as closely as possible. And I try to use the oldest form of
>> the
>> name I can find, not merely the name in English.
>>
>> Jesus is not ƶízüz (ƶ = /dz/, ü = /V/), nor yésus, but yëhócua (c = /ts/).
>>
>> Senjecas uses the deictic adjectives for the third person pronoun. When
>> used as adjectives, they are placed after the noun as appositives.
>>
>> So, “Jesus is Lord,” would be translated as “yëhócua nus áryus ésa”,
>> i.e., “Jesus, he/this one is Lord”. Come to think of it, I think that, in
>> this case
>> I should use the distal adjective (ólnus) and not the medial (nus), since
>> Jesus
>> is dead.
>>
>> Then again, a believer might use the proximal adjective (dus) emphasizing his
>> belief that Jesus is still with us.
>>
>> míryam iinus yëhócua nùs ámas ésa:
>> Mary she Jesus his mother is.
>>
>> I’ll have to go back and correct my translation of “The Tower of Babel” to
>> reflect this new info for Shinar, "cínar nas...". Names of places are in
>> the -as
>> declension, that of abstract ideas.
>>
>> I’m remembering elementary school teachers, several decades ago, telling us
>> not to say, “Jesus he..., Mary she...”!
>>
>> Charlie
Messages in this topic (26)
________________________________________________________________________
1b. Re: Article Case Marking Without Personal Articles
Posted by: "George Corley" [email protected]
Date: Tue Jan 17, 2012 10:55 am ((PST))
Sam, do you not have places named after people around where you are? My
home town of Elkins is named after Stephen B. Elkins, and Morgantown, where
I went to college, is named for Morgan Morgan (both of these places are in
West Virginia, for those who don't know). It seems to me that in the
States a combination of personal namesakes, names from American Indian
languages (a nearby river is called the Manongahela, and countless other
names in the States come from such names -- Utah for the Ute Tribe, etc.),
Spanish names in the West and Southwest, and
I-don't-know-just-give-it-a-name. One of my favorites is California, which
Spanish settlers actually named for a fictional land in an adventure novel.
Now, if you want some really transparently derived names, go for Chinese:
Beijing (北京) literally means "North Capital", Nanjing (南京) is "South
Capital", and Shanghai (上海) is "Over Sea". I could name dozens of Chinese
cities and provinces that are named purely geographically that way, though
of course there are some that are harder or use rarer characters I don't
know the stand-alone meaning of.
On Tue, Jan 17, 2012 at 1:27 PM, Sam Stutter <[email protected]> wrote:
> I guess we're in an odd situation with quite a lot of proper nouns.
>
> With something like Oxford the origin of the name is pretty clear: ox +
> ford, but with Manchester it's a case for etymology: fortified town +
> breast shaped hill. AFAIK all anglophone place names (and, I'm guessing,
> most place names in the world?) can be traced back to some combination of
> lexicon words in either the native language or an invasive language:
> Weston-super-Mare: west town by the sea.
>
> Then with surnames it's pretty much exactly the same issue. But with first
> names the etymology is often so remote as to be ignored. Girls' names like
> "Grace" or "Bella" are pretty easy to interpret but with something like
> "Samuel" you're going to be digging around on baby names websites ("God
> heard" apparently).
>
> Is Christianity / Are the Abrahamic religions quite unique in having this
> gulf between proper noun and origin? I remember someone saying that
> Christianity is the only major religion which has its holy land and chief
> place of pilgrimage under the authority of a different religion. If so,
> maybe it's fairer to translate "Jesus" with the definition of "Joshua":
> "God is salvation"?
>
> But then again, if I introduce myself in another language, no matter how
> that language functions, I will want to be called "Sam" or whatever the
> nearest approximation the local speakers can make of it. Entirely
> translating a name is only really useful if it represents a particular
> cultural reference point or if the individual is attempting to attain a
> greater level of inclusion into the culture of the speakers (if he's being
> baptised, passing a ritual, gaining citizenship, etc).
>
> With Jesus, the case is, who did the speakers of the language get the word
> "Jesus" from and how did they pronounce it? Presumably the first
> missionaries or early Christians wouldn't have been too hot on linguistics?
>
> Sam Stutter
> [email protected]
> "No e na il cu barri"
>
>
>
> On 17 Jan 2012, at 08:50, Peter Cyrus wrote:
>
> > "Jesus is not ƶízüz (ƶ = /dz/, ü = /V/), nor yésus, but yëhócua (c =
> /ts/)."
> >
> > Jesus was clearly named after the leader whom we call Joshua, or
> > Yehoshua, but in his native Aramaic, wouldn't it have been Yeshu?
> > It's not fair to trace the derivation further back than the guy
> > himself.
> >
> > For example, you can say that Jimmy Carter's "real" name was James,
> > but not that his real name was Yacub.
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Jan 16, 2012 at 11:34 PM, Charlie Brickner
> > <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> On Mon, 16 Jan 2012 14:42:04 -0700, Logan Kearsley
> >> <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>
> >>> On 16 January 2012 14:28, MorphemeAddict <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>>> You could always treat proper nouns as appositives: I gave him, Bob,
> the
> >>>> ball.
> >>>
> >>> You could, but then what's to distinguish the apposited pronouns from
> >>> personal articles? They behave exactly the same way. The point is to
> >>> figure out a way of handling the situation without developing personal
> >>> articles.
> >>>
> >>> -l.
> >>
> >> I think that’s a great idea! When I bring a foreign name into Senjecas
> I match
> >> the phonology as closely as possible. And I try to use the oldest form
> of the
> >> name I can find, not merely the name in English.
> >>
> >> Jesus is not ƶízüz (ƶ = /dz/, ü = /V/), nor yésus, but yëhócua (c =
> /ts/).
> >>
> >> Senjecas uses the deictic adjectives for the third person pronoun.
> When
> >> used as adjectives, they are placed after the noun as appositives.
> >>
> >> So, “Jesus is Lord,” would be translated as “yëhócua nus áryus ésa”,
> >> i.e., “Jesus, he/this one is Lord”. Come to think of it, I think that,
> in this case
> >> I should use the distal adjective (ólnus) and not the medial (nus),
> since Jesus
> >> is dead.
> >>
> >> Then again, a believer might use the proximal adjective (dus)
> emphasizing his
> >> belief that Jesus is still with us.
> >>
> >> míryam iinus yëhócua nùs ámas ésa:
> >> Mary she Jesus his mother is.
> >>
> >> I’ll have to go back and correct my translation of “The Tower of Babel”
> to
> >> reflect this new info for Shinar, "cínar nas...". Names of places are
> in the -as
> >> declension, that of abstract ideas.
> >>
> >> I’m remembering elementary school teachers, several decades ago,
> telling us
> >> not to say, “Jesus he..., Mary she...”!
> >>
> >> Charlie
>
Messages in this topic (26)
________________________________________________________________________
1c. Re: Article Case Marking Without Personal Articles
Posted by: "R A Brown" [email protected]
Date: Tue Jan 17, 2012 11:48 am ((PST))
On 17/01/2012 18:27, Sam Stutter wrote:
> I guess we're in an odd situation with quite a lot of
> proper nouns.
>
> With something like Oxford the origin of the name is
> pretty clear: ox + ford, but with Manchester it's a case
> for etymology: fortified town + breast shaped hill.
Possibly - not certainly.
The name is derived from Old English _Mameceaster_, and the
second part is merely the Old English _ceaster_, a feminine
noun meaning "city." This is ultimately derived from Latin
_castra_ (camp), plural of _castrum_ (fortress), but when
given to the name of the city meant no more than "city."
The Man-=/Mame- part of the name is ultimately derived from
the old Roman name _Mamūcium_ which we assume was a
Latinization of the contemporary British (Celtic) name. But
whether the name is derived from _mamm-_ "breast" because
the original settlement was built on a breast-shaped hill,
or whether it is named from a river goddess _Mamma_
("mother") is disputed.
(The modern Latin _Mancunia_ BTW is derived from a miscopying)
> AFAIK all anglophone place names (and, I'm guessing,
> most place names in the world?) can be traced back to
> some combination of lexicon words in either the native
> language or an invasive language:
No. While undoubtedly all place names once had a meaning,
the meaning of many of the more ancient place names in
Britain and Europe are pre-IE and their meanings are lost in
the mist of time.
Also down the ages, we know names have been reformulated
according to folk etymology. The town where I live is just
such an example. It is now called "Leatherhead" and is
popularly thought to be derived from the many tanneries that
once (but no longer) existed in the area, i.e. the 'head' or
center of the leather trade.
This is, in fact, false. The name is derived from Old
English _Leodridan_ <-- leode (people) + rida- (ride) =
place where people can ride through the river; and indeed it
was a place where there was a ford across River Mole.
But some hold that the Old English name itself was a piece
of folk etymology for an earlier British _Lētoritu-_ <--
lēto- "gray/grey" + ritu- "ford."
Some Celtic names may, of course, themselves have been
recast by folk etymology to give meaning to an earlier
pre-IE name :)
In short, any idea of translating the original meaning of a
place name is fraught with problems.
>
> Then with surnames it's pretty much exactly the same
> issue. But with first names the etymology is often so
> remote as to be ignored.
As with place names!
[snip]
>
> With Jesus, the case is, who did the speakers of the
> language get the word "Jesus" from and how did they
> pronounce it? Presumably the first missionaries or early
> Christians wouldn't have been too hot on linguistics?
All the European variants of the name are ultimately derived
from the Koine Greek Ἰησοῦσς /ie:su:s/, nominative, the stem
being Ἰησοῦ- /ie:su:/. This was the Greek version of the
Aramaic יֵשׁוּעַ /je:ʃu:ʕ/, which is what he would have been
called by his contemporaries.
I would expect my name to be rendered as closely as possible
to _Raymond_ in any other language. I would not wish for
some translation of "counsel-protection"!!
I really must finish off my half-written page on proper
names in TAKE. FWIW in TAKE:
Manchester = Μαμοὐκιο
Jesus = Ἰησοῦ
--
Ray
==================================
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
Nid rhy hen neb i ddysgu.
There's none too old to learn.
[WELSH PROVERB]
Messages in this topic (26)
________________________________________________________________________
1d. Re OT question: interlibrary loans
Posted by: "Roger Mills" [email protected]
Date: Tue Jan 17, 2012 12:34 pm ((PST))
Is it common practice now to charge for interlibrary loans? Back in the day,
when I was a student/TA/had library privileges, they were free. Now, as a
"civilian", I'm soaked with a fee at my little local library, as least where
obscure scholarly stuff is concerned. (Best-sellers are free, but who cares?)
Any other experiences from non-academic people?
Messages in this topic (26)
________________________________________________________________________
1e. Re: Re OT question: interlibrary loans
Posted by: "Chris Peters" [email protected]
Date: Tue Jan 17, 2012 12:36 pm ((PST))
I've been charged a fee for return-postage only, which seems reasonable to me.
(Except, even in one case where the lending library was a local University
library, with facilities just a few blocks away from the main branch of our
city's public library. One might think somebody could just have walked the
book over, but apparently that's not the practice.)
:Chris
> Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 12:34:22 -0800
> From: [email protected]
> Subject: Re OT question: interlibrary loans
> To: [email protected]
>
> Is it common practice now to charge for interlibrary loans? Back in the day,
> when I was a student/TA/had library privileges, they were free. Now, as a
> "civilian", I'm soaked with a fee at my little local library, as least where
> obscure scholarly stuff is concerned. (Best-sellers are free, but who cares?)
> Any other experiences from non-academic people?
Messages in this topic (26)
________________________________________________________________________
1f. Re: Re OT question: interlibrary loans
Posted by: "Michael Everson" [email protected]
Date: Tue Jan 17, 2012 1:20 pm ((PST))
On 17 Jan 2012, at 20:34, Roger Mills wrote:
> Is it common practice now to charge for interlibrary loans?
In my local public library in Co. Mayo they charge me �5 for an Interlibrary
Loan from libraries in the UK, which is cheap in my book. It hardly pays for
the postage, which must be subsidized.
Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
Messages in this topic (26)
________________________________________________________________________
1g. Re: Article Case Marking Without Personal Articles
Posted by: "Padraic Brown" [email protected]
Date: Tue Jan 17, 2012 2:12 pm ((PST))
--- On Tue, 1/17/12, R A Brown <[email protected]> wrote:
> Also down the ages, we know names have been reformulated
> according to folk etymology. The town where I live is
> just
> such an example. It is now called "Leatherhead" and
> is
> popularly thought to be derived from the many tanneries
> that
> once (but no longer) existed in the area, i.e. the 'head'
> or center of the leather trade.
>
> This is, in fact, false.
But it's fun to see how people view such things as place name derivation!
> The name is derived from Old
> English _Leodridan_ <-- leode (people) + rida- (ride) =
> place where people can ride through the river; and indeed
> it was a place where there was a ford across River Mole.
I guess the ancients thought "Moleford" didn't have a sufficiently
dignified ring to it!
> But some hold that the Old English name itself was a piece
> of folk etymology for an earlier British _Lētoritu-_
> <--
> lēto- "gray/grey" + ritu- "ford."
>
> Some Celtic names may, of course, themselves have been
> recast by folk etymology to give meaning to an earlier
> pre-IE name :)
Enter Old Albic! ;)
> In short, any idea of translating the original meaning of
> a place name is fraught with problems.
Yep. The problem in the US is compounded further by the mere multiplication
of source languages -- English names, French, Spanish, a whole host of
Native names, Dutch names, probably some Russian and German ones too.
(And, at least I believe, Nativ"names" "It's a Bloody River You
Stupid White Git" or "Don't These Metal Men Have Mountains Where They Come
From?")
> Ray
Padraic
Messages in this topic (26)
________________________________________________________________________
1h. Re: Article Case Marking Without Personal Articles
Posted by: "MorphemeAddict" [email protected]
Date: Tue Jan 17, 2012 2:47 pm ((PST))
On Tue, Jan 17, 2012 at 2:48 PM, R A Brown <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 17/01/2012 18:27, Sam Stutter wrote:
>
>> I guess we're in an odd situation with quite a lot of
>> proper nouns.
>>
>> With something like Oxford the origin of the name is
>> pretty clear: ox + ford, but with Manchester it's a case
>> for etymology: fortified town + breast shaped hill.
>>
>
> Possibly - not certainly.
>
> The name is derived from Old English _Mameceaster_, and the
> second part is merely the Old English _ceaster_, a feminine
> noun meaning "city." This is ultimately derived from Latin
> _castra_ (camp), plural of _castrum_ (fortress), but when
> given to the name of the city meant no more than "city."
>
> The Man-=/Mame- part of the name is ultimately derived from
> the old Roman name _Mamūcium_ which we assume was a
> Latinization of the contemporary British (Celtic) name. But
> whether the name is derived from _mamm-_ "breast" because
> the original settlement was built on a breast-shaped hill,
> or whether it is named from a river goddess _Mamma_
> ("mother") is disputed.
>
> (The modern Latin _Mancunia_ BTW is derived from a miscopying)
>
>
> AFAIK all anglophone place names (and, I'm guessing,
>> most place names in the world?) can be traced back to
>> some combination of lexicon words in either the native
>> language or an invasive language:
>>
>
> No. While undoubtedly all place names once had a meaning,
> the meaning of many of the more ancient place names in
> Britain and Europe are pre-IE and their meanings are lost in
> the mist of time.
>
> Also down the ages, we know names have been reformulated
> according to folk etymology. The town where I live is just
> such an example. It is now called "Leatherhead" and is
> popularly thought to be derived from the many tanneries that
> once (but no longer) existed in the area, i.e. the 'head' or
> center of the leather trade.
>
> This is, in fact, false. The name is derived from Old
> English _Leodridan_ <-- leode (people) + rida- (ride) =
> place where people can ride through the river; and indeed it
> was a place where there was a ford across River Mole.
>
> But some hold that the Old English name itself was a piece
> of folk etymology for an earlier British _Lētoritu-_ <--
> lēto- "gray/grey" + ritu- "ford."
>
> Some Celtic names may, of course, themselves have been
> recast by folk etymology to give meaning to an earlier
> pre-IE name :)
>
> In short, any idea of translating the original meaning of a
> place name is fraught with problems.
>
>
>
>> Then with surnames it's pretty much exactly the same
>> issue. But with first names the etymology is often so
>> remote as to be ignored.
>>
>
> As with place names!
>
> [snip]
>
>
>> With Jesus, the case is, who did the speakers of the
>> language get the word "Jesus" from and how did they
>> pronounce it? Presumably the first missionaries or early
>> Christians wouldn't have been too hot on linguistics?
>>
>
> All the European variants of the name are ultimately derived
> from the Koine Greek Ἰησοῦσς /ie:su:s/, nominative, the stem
> being Ἰησοῦ- /ie:su:/. This was the Greek version of the
> Aramaic יֵשׁוּעַ /je:ʃu:ʕ/, which is what he would have been
> called by his contemporaries.
>
I've never seen it with two sigmas at the end before.
stevo
>
> I would expect my name to be rendered as closely as possible
> to _Raymond_ in any other language. I would not wish for
> some translation of "counsel-protection"!!
>
> I really must finish off my half-written page on proper
> names in TAKE. FWIW in TAKE:
> Manchester = Μαμοὐκιο
> Jesus = Ἰησοῦ
>
> --
> Ray
> ==============================**====
> http://www.carolandray.plus.**com <http://www.carolandray.plus.com>
> ==============================**====
> Nid rhy hen neb i ddysgu.
> There's none too old to learn.
> [WELSH PROVERB]
>
Messages in this topic (26)
________________________________________________________________________
1i. Re: Article Case Marking Without Personal Articles
Posted by: "Adam Walker" [email protected]
Date: Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:05 pm ((PST))
On Tue, Jan 17, 2012 at 4:11 PM, Padraic Brown <[email protected]> wrote:
> --- On Tue, 1/17/12, R A Brown <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > Also down the ages, we know names have been reformulated
> > according to folk etymology. The town where I live is
> > just
> > such an example. It is now called "Leatherhead" and
> > is
> > popularly thought to be derived from the many tanneries
> > that
> > once (but no longer) existed in the area, i.e. the 'head'
> > or center of the leather trade.
> >
> > This is, in fact, false.
>
> But it's fun to see how people view such things as place name derivation!
>
> > The name is derived from Old
> > English _Leodridan_ <-- leode (people) + rida- (ride) =
> > place where people can ride through the river; and indeed
> > it was a place where there was a ford across River Mole.
>
> I guess the ancients thought "Moleford" didn't have a sufficiently
> dignified ring to it!
>
> > But some hold that the Old English name itself was a piece
> > of folk etymology for an earlier British _Lētoritu-_
> > <--
> > lēto- "gray/grey" + ritu- "ford."
> >
> > Some Celtic names may, of course, themselves have been
> > recast by folk etymology to give meaning to an earlier
> > pre-IE name :)
>
> Enter Old Albic! ;)
>
> > In short, any idea of translating the original meaning of
> > a place name is fraught with problems.
>
> Yep. The problem in the US is compounded further by the mere multiplication
> of source languages -- English names, French, Spanish, a whole host of
> Native names, Dutch names, probably some Russian and German ones too.
> (And, at least I believe, Nativ"names" "It's a Bloody River You
> Stupid White Git" or "Don't These Metal Men Have Mountains Where They Come
> From?")
>
> > Ray
>
> Padraic
>
>
Don't forget Swedish/Norwegian in certian areas and then there are
thousands of places named for some place in one or another Old Country and
lots and lots of Classical place names. there must be a Dublin in every
state and there are plenty of Londons and Parises and Farnkfu/orts and
Berlins and Madrids and Romes and Athenses and Spartas and Cairos and
Memphises, etc.
Here in the Dallas area we have Dallas (formerly Bryan's Settlement) from a
surname, Ft. Worth from a military base named for a surname, Duncanville
(formerly Dunan's Switch) from a surname + -ville, Cedar Hill a geographic
description, Midlothian from the Old Country, Waxahachie from an AmerInd
word (Caddo maybe), Ovilla not sure, but I think a surname, Red Oak from a
native tree, Grand Prairie from geography, Irving from asurname, Carrolton
form a surname + -ton, Addison from a surname, Farmers Branch from a creek
name, Richardson from a surname, Plano from something or other, Garland
from a surname IIRC, Mesquite from trees, Forney from a surname, Balch
Springs from geography named with a surname, Wilmer from a surname,
Hutchins from a surname Lancaster from the Old Country, DeSoto from a
surname, Mansfield from a surname IIRC, Burleson from a surname, Hurst from
a surname, Bedford not sure, Eules a surname I think, Weatherford, I don't
know. Quite a mixed bag.
Adam
Messages in this topic (26)
________________________________________________________________________
1j. Re: Article Case Marking Without Personal Articles
Posted by: "[email protected]" [email protected]
Date: Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:18 pm ((PST))
R A Brown wrote:
>
>
> Yep. The problem in the US is compounded further by the mere multiplication
> of source languages -- English names, French, Spanish, a whole host of
> Native names, Dutch names, probably some Russian and German ones too.
> (And, at least I believe, Nativ"names" "It's a Bloody River You
> Stupid White Git" or "Don't These Metal Men Have Mountains Where They Come
> From?")
>
> Ray
Almost anything goes in the United States. We have the
town of Truth or Consequences in New Mexico, named
after a television show, and Germfask in Michigan,
named from the initial letters of the original eight settlers.
There is even Zzyzx in California.
--Ph. D.
Messages in this topic (26)
________________________________________________________________________
1k. Re: Article Case Marking Without Personal Articles
Posted by: "Roger Mills" [email protected]
Date: Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:25 pm ((PST))
Padraic Brown wrote:
Yep. The problem in the US is compounded further by the mere multiplication
of source languages -- English names, French, Spanish, a whole host of
Native names, Dutch names, probably some Russian and German ones too.
(And, at least I believe, Nativ"names" "It's a Bloody River You
Stupid White Git" or "Don't These Metal Men Have Mountains Where They Come
From?")
===============================
My all time favorites are Bean Blossom, Indiana and Gnaw Bone, Indiana-- both
in the beautiful hilly area to the east of Bloomington. Among fictional names I
love East Ennui, and (compliments of Fire Sign Theater) Smegma, not to mention
the St. Louis Aquarium Choir.
And there's always Hell, Michigan........
Messages in this topic (26)
________________________________________________________________________
1l. Re: Article Case Marking Without Personal Articles
Posted by: "George Corley" [email protected]
Date: Tue Jan 17, 2012 3:31 pm ((PST))
I don't know about native names meaning "river" or what not, but there are
two interesting river names here in West Virginia:
-- The New River was presumably named by an unimaginative settler who
discovered a previously unknown river.
-- The Tygart Valley River, which runs through my town, is, as is obvious,
named after the valley it runs through -- a reversal of the usual
convention.
On Tue, Jan 17, 2012 at 6:18 PM, <[email protected]> wrote:
> R A Brown wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Yep. The problem in the US is compounded further by the mere
>> multiplication
>> of source languages -- English names, French, Spanish, a whole host of
>> Native names, Dutch names, probably some Russian and German ones too.
>> (And, at least I believe, Nativ"names" "It's a Bloody River You
>> Stupid White Git" or "Don't These Metal Men Have Mountains Where They Come
>> From?")
>>
>> Ray
>>
>
> Almost anything goes in the United States. We have the
> town of Truth or Consequences in New Mexico, named
> after a television show, and Germfask in Michigan,
> named from the initial letters of the original eight settlers. There is
> even Zzyzx in California.
> --Ph. D.
Messages in this topic (26)
________________________________________________________________________
1m. Re: Article Case Marking Without Personal Articles
Posted by: "MorphemeAddict" [email protected]
Date: Tue Jan 17, 2012 4:52 pm ((PST))
On Tue, Jan 17, 2012 at 6:31 PM, George Corley <[email protected]> wrote:
> I don't know about native names meaning "river" or what not, but there are
> two interesting river names here in West Virginia:
>
> -- The New River was presumably named by an unimaginative settler who
> discovered a previously unknown river.
> -- The Tygart Valley River, which runs through my town, is, as is obvious,
> named after the valley it runs through -- a reversal of the usual
> convention.
>
Maybe the Tygart Valley River is new?
stevo
>
> On Tue, Jan 17, 2012 at 6:18 PM, <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > R A Brown wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>
> >> Yep. The problem in the US is compounded further by the mere
> >> multiplication
> >> of source languages -- English names, French, Spanish, a whole host of
> >> Native names, Dutch names, probably some Russian and German ones too.
> >> (And, at least I believe, Nativ"names" "It's a Bloody River You
> >> Stupid White Git" or "Don't These Metal Men Have Mountains Where They
> Come
> >> From?")
> >>
> >> Ray
> >>
> >
> > Almost anything goes in the United States. We have the
> > town of Truth or Consequences in New Mexico, named
> > after a television show, and Germfask in Michigan,
> > named from the initial letters of the original eight settlers. There is
> > even Zzyzx in California.
> > --Ph. D.
>
Messages in this topic (26)
________________________________________________________________________
1n. Re: Article Case Marking Without Personal Articles
Posted by: "Charles W Brickner" [email protected]
Date: Tue Jan 17, 2012 6:37 pm ((PST))
-----Original Message-----
From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of George Corley
Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2012 6:31 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Article Case Marking Without Personal Articles
I don't know about native names meaning "river" or what not, but there are
two interesting river names here in West Virginia:
-- The New River was presumably named by an unimaginative settler who
discovered a previously unknown river.
>From Wikipedia:
It was named the New River because it was not known to early Atlantic Coast
explorers. Despite its name, the New River is the second oldest river in the
world geologically and the only nontidal river that crosses the Appalachian
Mountains.
>From me:
It flows through one of my parishes.
Charlie
Messages in this topic (26)
________________________________________________________________________
1o. Re: Article Case Marking Without Personal Articles
Posted by: "R A Brown" [email protected]
Date: Wed Jan 18, 2012 12:27 am ((PST))
On 17/01/2012 22:11, Padraic Brown wrote:
> --- On Tue, 1/17/12, R A Brown wrote:
[snip]
>
>> The name is derived from Old English _Leodridan_<--
>> leode (people) + rida- (ride) = place where people can
>> ride through the river; and indeed it was a place where
>> there was a ford across River Mole.
>
> I guess the ancients thought "Moleford" didn't have a
> sufficiently dignified ring to it!
But whether the river was called by any such name back then
is a matter of controversy.
The usual explanation is that "Mole" (a tributary of the
Thames) is a back formation from Molesey, the name of a town
on the Thames near where the Mole flows into the Thames.
The name means "Mul's island" or "Mul's meadow" - and as for
the proper name "Mul" that's anyone's guess ;)
But some hold that the name is derived from Latin _mola_
"mill" because of the watermills that once existed along it;
others say it is named after the little borrowing critter,
because some of the flow diverts under the North Downs at
Box Hill through 'Swallow Holes', i.e. the river 'burrows
underground' to reappear again.
Personally I thing the latter two explanations are fanciful
and the back-formation from Molesey the most likely - as
does also Oxford English Dictionary of Place Names :)
>>
>> Some Celtic names may, of course, themselves have been
>> recast by folk etymology to give meaning to an earlier
>> pre-IE name :)
>
> Enter Old Albic! ;)
Exactly what I thought when I wrote that :)
============================================================
On 17/01/2012 22:46, MorphemeAddict wrote:
> On Tue, Jan 17, 2012 at 2:48 PM, R A Brown wrote:
[snip]
>> All the European variants of the name are ultimately
>> derived from the Koine Greek Ἰησοῦσς /ie:su:s/,
>> nominative, the stem being Ἰησοῦ- /ie:su:/. This was
>> the Greek version of the Aramaic יֵשׁוּעַ /je:ʃu:ʕ/,
>> which is what he would have been called by his
>> contemporaries.
>>
>
> I've never seen it with two sigmas at the end before.
Nor had I! It is, of course, a typo. Just to set the
records straight:
Nominative: Ἰησοῦς
Accusative: Ἰησοῦν
Gen. & Dat. Ἰησοῦ
===============================================================
On 17/01/2012 23:18, [email protected] wrote:
> R A Brown wrote:
>>
>> Yep. The problem in the US is compounded further by
>> the mere multiplication of source languages -- English
>> names, French, Spanish, a whole host of Native names,
>> Dutch names, probably some Russian and German ones
>> too. (And, at least I believe, Nativ"names" "It's a
>> Bloody River You Stupid White Git" or "Don't These
>> Metal Men Have Mountains Where They Come From?")
>>
No - I never wrote that!!
But I have no doubt it's true - the same sort of thing
applies in many other parts of the world. When i was at
school i the 1950s there was lake in Africa called 'Nyasa'
and a country called 'Nyasaland' - both are known as Malawi
now. I recall being told that 'nyasa' simply meant "lake" in
the local language and wasn't a name at all, just a common noun.
Much the same had on in this island centuries ago; we now
have at least two rivers called 'Avon' which is only an
Anglicization of Welsh _afon_ "river".
>
> Almost anything goes in the United States. We have the
> town of Truth or Consequences in New Mexico, named after
> a television show, and Germfask in Michigan, named from
> the initial letters of the original eight settlers.
> There is even Zzyzx in California. --Ph. D.
:)
--
Ray
==================================
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
Nid rhy hen neb i ddysgu.
There's none too old to learn.
[WELSH PROVERB]
Messages in this topic (26)
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1p. Re: Article Case Marking Without Personal Articles
Posted by: "R A Brown" [email protected]
Date: Wed Jan 18, 2012 12:45 am ((PST))
OOOPS! another typo ;)
On 18/01/2012 08:27, R A Brown wrote about the River Mole:
[snip]
> others say it is named after the little borrowing
> critter, because some of the flow diverts under the North
> Downs at Box Hill through 'Swallow Holes', i.e. the river
> 'burrows underground' to reappear again.
I should, of course, have written: "others say it is named
after the little *burrowing* critter, in the family
Talpidae, because ......"
--
Ray
==================================
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
Nid rhy hen neb i ddysgu.
There's none too old to learn.
[WELSH PROVERB]
Messages in this topic (26)
________________________________________________________________________
1q. Re: Article Case Marking Without Personal Articles
Posted by: "Padraic Brown" [email protected]
Date: Wed Jan 18, 2012 4:57 am ((PST))
--- On Tue, 1/17/12, Sam Stutter <[email protected]> wrote:
> Is Christianity / Are the Abrahamic religions quite unique
> in having this gulf between proper noun and origin?
I doubt it. But I'm not sure what you mean by "gulf" here? Christians
have a long tradition of naming children after saints and biblical heroes.
Hence, "Samuel" and "Delilah" and "John". They're all absolutely
meaningless in English -- but so are "Bertram", "William" and "Alfred".
That is, they all have meanings that can be discovered by study of their
etymologies, but on their surface, they have no immediate meaning as words.
The thing about Christian names is that all the biblical heroes have
foreign names (Hebrew or Aramaic) and many saints' names are also foreign
(Latin, Greek, Semitic, etc.)
> I remember someone saying that Christianity is the only major
> religion which has its holy land and chief place of
> pilgrimage under the authority of a different religion. If
> so, maybe it's fairer to translate "Jesus" with the
> definition of "Joshua": "God is salvation"?
>
> But then again, if I introduce myself in another language,
> no matter how that language functions, I will want to be
> called "Sam" or whatever the nearest approximation the local
> speakers can make of it. Entirely translating a name is only
> really useful if it represents a particular cultural
> reference point or if the individual is attempting to attain
> a greater level of inclusion into the culture of the
> speakers (if he's being baptised, passing a ritual, gaining
> citizenship, etc).
Yeah, I don't see much sense in "translating" one's name, unless there is
some cultural imperative in the target language. Like if upon meeting
someone there is a ritual namesagatelling -- if you don't know the story
of your own name, what it means, why you have that name, etc., then you
might be seen as not quite a person. Or at least your status as ignoramus
barbarian foreigner would be publicly and forevermore confirmed!
> With Jesus, the case is, who did the speakers of the
> language get the word "Jesus" from and how did they
> pronounce it? Presumably the first missionaries or early
> Christians wouldn't have been too hot on linguistics?
Possibly not -- but in their defense, Christian missionaries *have* been
historically interested in linguistics. To the point of learning local
languages in order to evangelise and to the point of translating the
Bible into numerous languages.
> Sam Stutter
Padraic
Messages in this topic (26)
________________________________________________________________________
1r. Re: Article Case Marking Without Personal Articles
Posted by: "R A Brown" [email protected]
Date: Wed Jan 18, 2012 6:05 am ((PST))
On 18/01/2012 12:57, Padraic Brown wrote:
> --- On Tue, 1/17/12, Sam Stutter<[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>> Is Christianity / Are the Abrahamic religions quite
>> unique in having this gulf between proper noun and
>> origin?
>
> I doubt it.
Of course theyŗe not unique in that respect.
> But I'm not sure what you mean by "gulf" here? Christians
> have a long tradition of naming children after saints and
> biblical heroes. Hence, "Samuel" and "Delilah" and
> "John". They're all absolutely meaningless in English
And while some ancient Greek personal names are clearly
meaningful, e.g. Philippos "horse-lover", other were simply
derived from names of deities, e.g. Demetrios, Dionysios,
Arrtemisios etc. whose names were meaningless in Greek.
> -- but so are "Bertram", "William" and "Alfred". That is,
> they all have meanings that can be discovered by study of
> their etymologies, but on their surface, they have no
> immediate meaning as words.
Yep - we do know the etymologies of them; some of the
ancient Greek deities, e.g. Zeus, had names of known IE
origin, others did not, e.g. Artemis, and their etymologies
are unknown.
>
> The thing about Christian names is that all the biblical
> heroes have foreign names (Hebrew or Aramaic) and many
> saints' names are also foreign (Latin, Greek, Semitic,
> etc.)
Yep - and among the ancient Romans, while some praenomina
(given names) were clearly meaningful, e.g. Quīn(c)tus,
Septimus, some were questionable. e.g. the the Mār- of
Mārcus _may_ be related to that of Mārs (Mārtis,) other
names were meaningless, e.g. Aulus, Gnaeues, Gaius.
[snip]
>
>> With Jesus, the case is, who did the speakers of the
>> language get the word "Jesus" from and how did they
>> pronounce it? Presumably the first missionaries or
>> early Christians wouldn't have been too hot on
>> linguistics?
>
> Possibly not --
The point is that earliest Christian missionaries didn't
need to be great linguists as their message spread
throughout a part of the world where Koine Greek was the
lingua franca.
But clearly when Christianity took root, as it did at a very
early date, in Armenia, Egypt (Coptic speaking) and Ethiopia
missionary work was done in the native language.
> but in their defense, Christian missionaries *have* been
> historically interested in linguistics. To the point of
> learning local languages in order to evangelise and to
> the point of translating the Bible into numerous
> languages.
Certainly; and much of early European knowledge of Chinese
was furnished by the Jesuit missionaries to that country,
some of whom were clearly most interested in linguistics.
--
Ray
==================================
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
Nid rhy hen neb i ddysgu.
There's none too old to learn.
[WELSH PROVERB]
Messages in this topic (26)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
2.1. Re: Articles
Posted by: "Roman Rausch" [email protected]
Date: Wed Jan 18, 2012 5:40 am ((PST))
> Watashi no empitsu desu. Kono empitsu ga tsukue kara ochita.
Argh, dammit.. Correction:
Watashi no empitsu desu. Kono empitsu wa tsukue kara ochita.
>The information is new, but it does not mean that we introuce a
>new noun with -ga and a use the known one with -wa.
I think it does - it should be _wa_ in the above example.
>In other words, I just want to say that "-ga/wa" != "a/the", though
>act similarily in some situations.
That's true, of course.
Messages in this topic (190)
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