There are 25 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1.1. Re: OT: ZBB offline for now
From: Sai
1.2. Re: OT: ZBB offline for now
From: Hi
1.3. Re: OT: ZBB offline for now
From: Mike Ellis
1.4. Re: OT: ZBB offline for now
From: Eugene Oh
1.5. Re: OT: ZBB offline for now
From: Adam Walker
1.6. Re: OT: ZBB offline for now
From: Michael Everson
1.7. Re: change and classification (was OT: ZBB offline for now)
From: Tony Harris
1.8. Re: OT: ZBB offline for now
From: Mike Ellis
1.9. Re: OT: ZBB offline for now
From: Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets
1.10. Re: OT: ZBB offline for now
From: Roger Mills
1.11. Re: OT: ZBB offline for now
From: Roger Mills
1.12. Re: OT: ZBB offline for now
From: A. da Mek
2a. Re: Verbs for Aspects
From: Garth Wallace
3a. Re: Lonely Planet Guides
From: Douglas Koller
3b. Re: Lonely Planet Guides
From: Roger Mills
4a. Re: Meta: Signatures...
From: And Rosta
4b. Re: Meta: Signatures...
From: Ben Scerri
4c. Re: Meta: Signatures...
From: Tony Harris
4d. Re: Meta: Signatures...
From: Garth Wallace
4e. Re: Meta: Signatures...
From: R A Brown
4f. PRIVATE Re: Meta: Signatures...
From: R A Brown
5a. Crisis averted
From: Scott Hlad
5b. Re: Crisis averted
From: yuri
5c. Re: Crisis averted
From: taliesin the storyteller
5d. Re: Crisis averted
From: Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets
Messages
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1.1. Re: OT: ZBB offline for now
Posted by: "Sai" [email protected]
Date: Thu Jan 19, 2012 1:20 pm ((PST))
On Thu, Jan 19, 2012 at 16:00, George Corley <[email protected]> wrote:
> In fact, certain aspects of this personality are reflected in the post you
> have just made
I don't see it, frankly. I defended myself, and applauded others.
But maybe this is a case of "have you stopped beating your wife", eh.
> Sai, but your personality does not lend itself to being the public face of an
> organization. DJP's does.
Which is part of why I supported his being that public face, and tried
to avoid being spokesperson when I was president.
- Sai
Messages in this topic (32)
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1.2. Re: OT: ZBB offline for now
Posted by: "Hi" [email protected]
Date: Thu Jan 19, 2012 2:16 pm ((PST))
Greetings, fellow hominids! I'm here to reply to saizai's comments about
this ZBB cohort that's out to get him. I don't know where he gets his
information from, but as far as I know the only anti-saizai activity going
on consists of quoting his blog posts on IRC and laughing at how ridiculous
he and his G+ friends are (anyone who has read his "about me" post on
Livejournal will know what I'm talking about).
As for the LCS, it's always been my opinion that it is mainly a resume
padder for saizai and others. There's nothing wrong with that, but in its
early days his relentless campaign to present the group as the "leader" of
the conlanging community and the ZBB as a den of trolls to be competed with
rubbed a lot of people the wrong way, and their negative reaction to this
arrogant attitude is what made him leave the forum (there was also some
controversy about his behavior when he announced that he was looking for a
conlanger subcontractor, but I don't remember much about it).
Anyone familiar with saizai can tell that he is driven by a need to be
thought of as, if not a leader, certainly some kind of mover and shaker in
whatever community he thinks will accept him. Hell, just read that last post
he wrote: "I have supported [the ZBB] behind the scenes and will continue to
do so". Been busting his hump to secure another mil in funding from the
Senate, I'm sure. 9_9
Messages in this topic (32)
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1.3. Re: OT: ZBB offline for now
Posted by: "Mike Ellis" [email protected]
Date: Thu Jan 19, 2012 2:26 pm ((PST))
On Thu, 19 Jan 2012 17:05:59 -0500, Hi <[email protected]> wrote:
>As for the LCS, it's always been my opinion that it is mainly a resume
>padder for saizai and others. There's nothing wrong with that, but in its
>early days his relentless campaign to present the group as the "leader" of
>the conlanging community and the ZBB as a den of trolls to be competed with
>rubbed a lot of people the wrong way, and their negative reaction to this
>arrogant attitude is what made him leave the forum (there was also some
>controversy about his behavior when he announced that he was looking for a
>conlanger subcontractor, but I don't remember much about it).
He has stepped away from the reins, it appears. Like I said before -- if the
LCS can present itself to the ZBBers without that lingering association, it
probably won't have any problem. But yeah in the minds of those who only
remember the last interaction between anything LCS and the ZBB, it just
smacks of you know who.
>Anyone familiar with saizai can tell that he is driven by a need to be
>thought of as, if not a leader, certainly some kind of mover and shaker in
>whatever community he thinks will accept him. Hell, just read that last post
>he wrote: "I have supported [the ZBB] behind the scenes and will continue to
>do so". Been busting his hump to secure another mil in funding from the
>Senate, I'm sure. 9_9
Cute. I can't imagine what he's doing behind the scenes of a board run by a
guy who can't stand him ... but whatever.
The ZBB may come back, apparently. Rumor is it's being fixed, and some mods
are trying to save useful linguistics threads etc. Or the membership might
migrate to a new board. We shall see.
Messages in this topic (32)
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1.4. Re: OT: ZBB offline for now
Posted by: "Eugene Oh" [email protected]
Date: Thu Jan 19, 2012 2:42 pm ((PST))
Please don't bring that dispute onto this list where it is irrelevant. Please
stop spamming my inbox.
Eugene
Sent from my iPhone
19 Jan 2012, � 22:26, Mike Ellis <[email protected]> �������(�):
> On Thu, 19 Jan 2012 17:05:59 -0500, Hi <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> As for the LCS, it's always been my opinion that it is mainly a resume
>> padder for saizai and others. There's nothing wrong with that, but in its
>> early days his relentless campaign to present the group as the "leader" of
>> the conlanging community and the ZBB as a den of trolls to be competed with
>> rubbed a lot of people the wrong way, and their negative reaction to this
>> arrogant attitude is what made him leave the forum (there was also some
>> controversy about his behavior when he announced that he was looking for a
>> conlanger subcontractor, but I don't remember much about it).
>
> He has stepped away from the reins, it appears. Like I said before -- if the
> LCS can present itself to the ZBBers without that lingering association, it
> probably won't have any problem. But yeah in the minds of those who only
> remember the last interaction between anything LCS and the ZBB, it just
> smacks of you know who.
>
>> Anyone familiar with saizai can tell that he is driven by a need to be
>> thought of as, if not a leader, certainly some kind of mover and shaker in
>> whatever community he thinks will accept him. Hell, just read that last post
>> he wrote: "I have supported [the ZBB] behind the scenes and will continue to
>> do so". Been busting his hump to secure another mil in funding from the
>> Senate, I'm sure. 9_9
>
> Cute. I can't imagine what he's doing behind the scenes of a board run by a
> guy who can't stand him ... but whatever.
> The ZBB may come back, apparently. Rumor is it's being fixed, and some mods
> are trying to save useful linguistics threads etc. Or the membership might
> migrate to a new board. We shall see.
Messages in this topic (32)
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1.5. Re: OT: ZBB offline for now
Posted by: "Adam Walker" [email protected]
Date: Thu Jan 19, 2012 2:45 pm ((PST))
This thread really needs to stop and it needs to do so now. Sai and I
have clashed in the past, but this is just ugly. The man deserves to
be treated like a man, not publicly pilloried. He has put a lot of
work into providing something to the community which I value. You may
speculate all you please about why, but he is the one who took the
time to do what others had only tossed around as a pipedream. And the
truth is, you cannot see into his heart and so you do not know his
motives. This list is for conlanging, not Sai bashing. This thread has
become entirely off topic and meanspirited. Adam
On 1/19/12, Hi <[email protected]> wrote:
> Greetings, fellow hominids! I'm here to reply to saizai's comments about
> this ZBB cohort that's out to get him. I don't know where he gets his
> information from, but as far as I know the only anti-saizai activity going
> on consists of quoting his blog posts on IRC and laughing at how ridiculous
> he and his G+ friends are (anyone who has read his "about me" post on
> Livejournal will know what I'm talking about).
>
> As for the LCS, it's always been my opinion that it is mainly a resume
> padder for saizai and others. There's nothing wrong with that, but in its
> early days his relentless campaign to present the group as the "leader" of
> the conlanging community and the ZBB as a den of trolls to be competed with
> rubbed a lot of people the wrong way, and their negative reaction to this
> arrogant attitude is what made him leave the forum (there was also some
> controversy about his behavior when he announced that he was looking for a
> conlanger subcontractor, but I don't remember much about it).
>
> Anyone familiar with saizai can tell that he is driven by a need to be
> thought of as, if not a leader, certainly some kind of mover and shaker in
> whatever community he thinks will accept him. Hell, just read that last post
> he wrote: "I have supported [the ZBB] behind the scenes and will continue to
> do so". Been busting his hump to secure another mil in funding from the
> Senate, I'm sure. 9_9
>
Messages in this topic (32)
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1.6. Re: OT: ZBB offline for now
Posted by: "Michael Everson" [email protected]
Date: Thu Jan 19, 2012 2:50 pm ((PST))
Ye gods, this is a hell of a thread.
We'd be back on topic if we discussed something interesting, like mechanisms
for linguistic change and their ramifications for language classification.
Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
Messages in this topic (32)
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1.7. Re: change and classification (was OT: ZBB offline for now)
Posted by: "Tony Harris" [email protected]
Date: Thu Jan 19, 2012 2:56 pm ((PST))
This sounds like the conversation recently happening on the Volapuk list
about name coding for the two dialects, Schleyer and DeJong.
I believe the last determination I saw was to go with vo-schleyer and
vo-dejong for those, even though in native Volapuk Schleyer's name is
spelled Jleyer.
On 01/19/2012 05:50 PM, Michael Everson wrote:
> Ye gods, this is a hell of a thread.
>
> We'd be back on topic if we discussed something interesting, like mechanisms
> for linguistic change and their ramifications for language classification.
>
> Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
Messages in this topic (32)
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1.8. Re: OT: ZBB offline for now
Posted by: "Mike Ellis" [email protected]
Date: Thu Jan 19, 2012 2:58 pm ((PST))
On Thu, 19 Jan 2012 16:45:17 -0600, Adam Walker <[email protected]> wrote:
>This thread really needs to stop and it needs to do so now. Sai and I
>have clashed in the past, but this is just ugly. The man deserves to
>be treated like a man, not publicly pilloried. He has put a lot of
>work into providing something to the community which I value. You may
>speculate all you please about why, but he is the one who took the
>time to do what others had only tossed around as a pipedream. And the
>truth is, you cannot see into his heart and so you do not know his
>motives. This list is for conlanging, not Sai bashing. This thread has
>become entirely off topic and meanspirited. Adam
I won't discuss him any more then. But I had to clarify from George's
original post. The ZBB is not full of hipsters with some kind of aversion to
the LCS.
I didn't post about the events over on the ZBB that led to his problems
there. I asked, people didn't want it public. That's sensible. It won't
continue here.
(and Eugene it's dishonest of you to accuse me of "spamming your inbox". I
have sent nothing to you personally, and your inbox probably doesn't
discriminate between the threads you're interested in and the ones you're
not. Don't make me out to be some kind of troll or spammer because I was
engaging in a real two-way discussion.)
Messages in this topic (32)
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1.9. Re: OT: ZBB offline for now
Posted by: "Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets" [email protected]
Date: Thu Jan 19, 2012 3:02 pm ((PST))
2012/1/19 Eugene Oh <[email protected]>
> Please don't bring that dispute onto this list where it is irrelevant.
> Please stop spamming my inbox.
>
>
That's exactly why I asked to be informed privately. Everyone, I apologise
for opening this can of worms. It was purely a request for information
about something I didn't know about that surprised me, not an invitation to
bash people publicly. Someone telling me: "there have been disagreements
between Sai and members of the ZBB" would have been enough.
So let's stop this thread already. I know enough about this issue, and I
guess the others who wanted to know as well do too now. I just wanted to
know *about* this issue, and it's obvious replaying this fight here is
pointless. So let's drop it now and get back to conlanging. Isn't that
supposed to be what we all do here?
--
Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets.
http://christophoronomicon.blogspot.com/
http://www.christophoronomicon.nl/
Messages in this topic (32)
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1.10. Re: OT: ZBB offline for now
Posted by: "Roger Mills" [email protected]
Date: Thu Jan 19, 2012 3:31 pm ((PST))
From: Adam Walker <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Cc:
Sent: Thursday, January 19, 2012 5:45 PM
Subject: Re: OT: ZBB offline for now
This thread really needs to stop and it needs to do so now. Sai and I
have clashed in the past, but this is just ugly. The man deserves to
be treated like a man, not publicly pilloried. He has put a lot of
work into providing something to the community which I value. You may
speculate all you please about why, but he is the one who took the
time to do what others had only tossed around as a pipedream. And the
truth is, you cannot see into his heart and so you do not know his
motives. This list is for conlanging, not Sai bashing. This thread has
become entirely off topic and meanspirited. Adam
========================================
I wholeheartedly agree. As for Sai's earlier post today outlining his
position(s), I can only add BRAVO, SAI
Roger
Messages in this topic (32)
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1.11. Re: OT: ZBB offline for now
Posted by: "Roger Mills" [email protected]
Date: Thu Jan 19, 2012 3:34 pm ((PST))
From: Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets <[email protected]>
So let's stop this thread already. I know enough about this issue, and I
guess the others who wanted to know as well do too now. I just wanted to
know *about* this issue, and it's obvious replaying this fight here is
pointless. So let's drop it now and get back to conlanging. Isn't that
supposed to be what we all do here?
-- ------------------------------------------
And it will save a lot of wear and tear on my Delete button.
Messages in this topic (32)
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1.12. Re: OT: ZBB offline for now
Posted by: "A. da Mek" [email protected]
Date: Fri Jan 20, 2012 12:51 am ((PST))
> I just wanted to know *about* this issue
Maybe we should have a CONFLAMEWARS list for the matters which cannot be
discussed on CONLANG and CONCULTURE. There may be a lot of people interested
in gossip or cross and crown.
Messages in this topic (32)
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2a. Re: Verbs for Aspects
Posted by: "Garth Wallace" [email protected]
Date: Thu Jan 19, 2012 1:23 pm ((PST))
On Thu, Jan 19, 2012 at 12:02 PM, Roman Rausch <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>Interestingly, Japanese does this pretty explicitly. There is a
>>construction where the -te form of the lexical verb is used with the
>>existential verb "iru"* to express an action as a state, but what sort
>>of state depends on the verb's transitivity: if intransitive, it
>>expresses a state resulting from the action (perfect); if transitive,
>>it expresses the state of the action being in progress (progressive).
>
> Is it really transitivity or rather (the somewhat hidden property of) the
> instantaneousness of an action, in other words - change of state? Such verbs
> tend to be intransitive, but with _shiru_ 'get to know' there may be an
> example of a transitive one: _shitte iru_ is not **'I'm getting to know',
> but 'I got to know, I know'.
> Change of state verbs also behave differently in Russian in that they rarely
> have the form 3 above. For example, you either 'got sad' or 'were sad', but
> you cannot say that you 'were getting sad' without some auxiliary
> construction.
> What exactly qualifies as a change of state often seems to be purely
> conventional, I guess. Japanese _kuru_ 'to come' is a change of state, which
> I take as being seen from the perspective of the person who's receiving a
> guest - if you see the guest, then he's come, there is no 'he's coming'. If
> you're the guest yourself, you are 'going' rather than 'coming'.
I've generally seen it taught in the context of transitivity. For
example "ageru" (to raise, lift) vs. "agaru" (to rise, go up) --
neither, AFAICT, is considered instantaneous. "Shitte iru" appears to
be idiomatic (for one thing, the negative of "shiru" usually means "to
not know, be unfamiliar with", instead of "to not become familiar
with"); the pattern may break down a bit when dealing with verbs that
do not come in transitive/intransitive pairs.
Messages in this topic (19)
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3a. Re: Lonely Planet Guides
Posted by: "Douglas Koller" [email protected]
Date: Thu Jan 19, 2012 2:02 pm ((PST))
> Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2012 23:26:37 +0000
> From: [email protected]
> Subject: Lonely Planet Guides
> To: [email protected]
> Just been skimming through Lonely Planet guides on Amazon. 2 things spring to
> mind:
> 1) does anyone know what gets covered in the "Language" section? I've only
> managed to scrape a couple of pages from the Cuba edition. Which makes for a
> good basic level Conlang test: can it state "I have altitude sickness" and
> "how long can I park here?". I'm thinking of using this as a basis for a
> short and friendly phrase book.
> 2) more importantly, the books have a good test of conculture: the 25
> definitive experiences they list at the start of each edition. I've been
> using this as a springboard to flesh out my concultures. I can't remember if
> this is OT or not, but I'll ask anyway and wait for the Stasi. Or
> alternatively, I'll ask and let it disappear :)
> For those of you with developed concultures, would you be able to compile a
> list of the top 25 things a tourist should experience while visiting?
> Try and tie it back to conlanging if you do answer :)
Back in the day, there used to be Lonely Planet Phrase Books (well done,
IMNSHO, and far better and more realistically useful than the Berlitz "Have you
a pencil?" approach). Alas, I think I lost my Mediterranean edition in a move,
but I have the others. *And* back in the day, I translated the whole kit and
caboodle (the "template" was the same, but there were slight variations from
language to language) into Géarthnuns. Since Géarthtörs exists *here*, the
phrasebook covers a decent gamut of stuff for the tourist. A guidebook is
another story. Beyond visiting Gdhírs and trekking through the Vdözçebs
mountains, I can't think of a list of must-see, must-do things or restaurants
and country inns to die for. Kou
Messages in this topic (4)
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3b. Re: Lonely Planet Guides
Posted by: "Roger Mills" [email protected]
Date: Thu Jan 19, 2012 3:27 pm ((PST))
From: Douglas Koller <[email protected]>
Back in the day, there used to be Lonely Planet Phrase Books (well done,
IMNSHO, and far better and more realistically useful than the Berlitz "Have you
a pencil?" approach). Alas, I think I lost my Mediterranean edition in a move,
but I have the others. *And* back in the day, I translated the whole kit and
caboodle (the "template" was the same, but there were slight variations from
language to language) into Géarthnuns. Since Géarthtörs exists *here*, the
phrasebook covers a decent gamut of stuff for the tourist. A guidebook is
another story. Beyond visiting Gdhírs and trekking through the Vdözçebs
mountains, I can't think of a list of must-see, must-do things or restaurants
and country inns to die for. Kou
=====================================
Could someone post the "template" (or is it online?). I'm not familiar with the
Lonely :Planet series.
Beyond that, I have to agree with "A guidebook is another story.........." :-)
Messages in this topic (4)
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4a. Re: Meta: Signatures...
Posted by: "And Rosta" [email protected]
Date: Thu Jan 19, 2012 3:33 pm ((PST))
R A Brown, On 19/01/2012 14:17:
> On 19/01/2012 12:49, And Rosta wrote:
>> NCNC began simply as a maxim of tact, a tactic for
>> avoiding upsetting other list-members. It then over time
>> became widely understood to be a rule of etiquette,
>
> Surely you still recall the days, long years ago, when the
> list was not the most pleasant of places and mud was flung
> around? There is no question in my mind that it is an
> immeasurably better and more productive place now.
I honestly don't recall the list ever being like that, and nor do I recall any
traumatic periods of NCNC-violations or NCNClessness. But my memory may be
faulty, or I might have a different notion of what is mud -- I don't know.
> Yes, it has become a widely understood rule of etiquette.
>
>> any transgression of which automatically places the
>> transgressor in the wrong. And now it appears to have
>> become a rule whose transgression will result in the
>> transgressor being prevented from posting.
>
> This is surely unfair. I do not think that Henrik has ever
> set anyone to NOPOST without prior request to act
> differently or without warning.
>
> It was IIRC two or three weeks back that Charlie drew
> Koppa's attention to the fact that his sig might appear to
> contravene the NCNC etiquette - but Koppa didn't even the
> decency to respond. Personally I thought from his sig that
> either he didn't live on the same planet as I do, or he was
> trying to fan a few flames, which he didn't.
>
> But it is quite clear, isn't it, that Henrik did ask Koppa
> to change the sig (probably, tho I do not know, because of
> private complaints being made to Henrik).
My comments weren't really critical of Henrik, and weren't unfair. I didn't say
Koppa had been silenced without warning. I affirmed faith in Henrik's
benevolence. I acknowledged that Henrik was probably carrying out the List's
collective will.
>> but I regret the way NCNC has evolved, from a situation
>> in which an individual's behaviour was regulated by the
>> individual themself, via a situation in which it was
>> regulated by the forces of community censure, to a
>> situation in which the individual's behaviour is
>> regulated by the list administrator.
>
> Personally I think this is overstating the case. Surely _it
> still is_ something we expect to be (and usually is)
> regulated by an individual her-/him-self; if it is not, then
> for sure one or two people will politely point it out and,
> more often than not, the individual puts it right. It is
> surely only when a situation has persisted that the
> administrator steps in and tries to get the problem sorted out.
>
> To the best of my knowledge Henrik has only twice set
> someone to NOPOST and, I'm darn sure, it was only as a last
> resort after efforts were made off-line to do things
> differently.
>
>> I sense, though, that this evolution is in accordance
>> with the wishes of most listmembers.
>
> No, I would not wish the Benevolent Dictator to be the
> person who regulated an individual's behavior.
>
> Self-regulation is the best; when that doesn't work, there
> is peer regulation and IMO the Benevolent Dictator should
> be, and is, the last resort. I firmly believe Henrik does
> not set anybody to NOPOST lightly and only does so after all
> other efforts have failed.
The individual is regulating themself only when they may choose to flout NCNC:
if their only options are to obey NCNC or be forcibly silenced, then obedience
to NCNC cannot justly be said to be chosen, and the regulation is being done by
the powers that can forcibly silence.
I would rather everyone was free to use whatever signature they liked; and to
me, forcibly silencing someone for NCNC violation is worse than NCNC violation.
I do appreciate that you don't agree, and of course I don't mean this statement
of my views as an attack on you or Henrik.
--And.
Messages in this topic (22)
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4b. Re: Meta: Signatures...
Posted by: "Ben Scerri" [email protected]
Date: Thu Jan 19, 2012 4:31 pm ((PST))
Quite frankly, I think the whole thing is being massively exaggerated and
given WAY to much importance.
So he has a non-NCNC sig. Who cares? Don't like it, don't look at it.
This truely is censorship at its worst if one cannot even state an opinion
that is not even slightly flaming. He was not saying that it was anyones
fault, he was merely stating his opinion on matters in the world. I'm
sorry, but if you take offense to his opinion, then that is your fault, and
I will defend his right to say it.
On 20 January 2012 10:33, And Rosta <[email protected]> wrote:
> R A Brown, On 19/01/2012 14:17:
>
> On 19/01/2012 12:49, And Rosta wrote:
>>
>>> NCNC began simply as a maxim of tact, a tactic for
>>> avoiding upsetting other list-members. It then over time
>>> became widely understood to be a rule of etiquette,
>>>
>>
>> Surely you still recall the days, long years ago, when the
>> list was not the most pleasant of places and mud was flung
>> around? There is no question in my mind that it is an
>> immeasurably better and more productive place now.
>>
>
> I honestly don't recall the list ever being like that, and nor do I recall
> any traumatic periods of NCNC-violations or NCNClessness. But my memory may
> be faulty, or I might have a different notion of what is mud -- I don't
> know.
>
>
> Yes, it has become a widely understood rule of etiquette.
>>
>> any transgression of which automatically places the
>>> transgressor in the wrong. And now it appears to have
>>> become a rule whose transgression will result in the
>>> transgressor being prevented from posting.
>>>
>>
>> This is surely unfair. I do not think that Henrik has ever
>> set anyone to NOPOST without prior request to act
>> differently or without warning.
>>
>> It was IIRC two or three weeks back that Charlie drew
>> Koppa's attention to the fact that his sig might appear to
>> contravene the NCNC etiquette - but Koppa didn't even the
>> decency to respond. Personally I thought from his sig that
>> either he didn't live on the same planet as I do, or he was
>> trying to fan a few flames, which he didn't.
>>
>> But it is quite clear, isn't it, that Henrik did ask Koppa
>> to change the sig (probably, tho I do not know, because of
>> private complaints being made to Henrik).
>>
>
> My comments weren't really critical of Henrik, and weren't unfair. I
> didn't say Koppa had been silenced without warning. I affirmed faith in
> Henrik's benevolence. I acknowledged that Henrik was probably carrying out
> the List's collective will.
>
>
>
>> but I regret the way NCNC has evolved, from a situation
>>> in which an individual's behaviour was regulated by the
>>> individual themself, via a situation in which it was
>>> regulated by the forces of community censure, to a
>>> situation in which the individual's behaviour is
>>> regulated by the list administrator.
>>>
>>
>> Personally I think this is overstating the case. Surely _it
>> still is_ something we expect to be (and usually is)
>> regulated by an individual her-/him-self; if it is not, then
>> for sure one or two people will politely point it out and,
>> more often than not, the individual puts it right. It is
>> surely only when a situation has persisted that the
>> administrator steps in and tries to get the problem sorted out.
>>
>> To the best of my knowledge Henrik has only twice set
>> someone to NOPOST and, I'm darn sure, it was only as a last
>> resort after efforts were made off-line to do things
>> differently.
>>
>> I sense, though, that this evolution is in accordance
>>> with the wishes of most listmembers.
>>>
>>
>> No, I would not wish the Benevolent Dictator to be the
>> person who regulated an individual's behavior.
>>
>> Self-regulation is the best; when that doesn't work, there
>> is peer regulation and IMO the Benevolent Dictator should
>> be, and is, the last resort. I firmly believe Henrik does
>> not set anybody to NOPOST lightly and only does so after all
>> other efforts have failed.
>>
>
> The individual is regulating themself only when they may choose to flout
> NCNC: if their only options are to obey NCNC or be forcibly silenced, then
> obedience to NCNC cannot justly be said to be chosen, and the regulation is
> being done by the powers that can forcibly silence.
>
> I would rather everyone was free to use whatever signature they liked; and
> to me, forcibly silencing someone for NCNC violation is worse than NCNC
> violation. I do appreciate that you don't agree, and of course I don't mean
> this statement of my views as an attack on you or Henrik.
>
> --And.
>
Messages in this topic (22)
________________________________________________________________________
4c. Re: Meta: Signatures...
Posted by: "Tony Harris" [email protected]
Date: Thu Jan 19, 2012 4:54 pm ((PST))
I agree. I honestly hadn't thought anything of the sig, and I see a
wide variety of opinions in sigs and don't generally pay much attention
to them. Occasionally one may strike me as particularly interesting or
particularly offensive, but it's pretty rare.
Admittedly the SOPA/PIPA thing was probably close enough to political
soabboxing that it crossed a line here, in the same way that advocating
for or against a political candidate, or for or against a particular law
or party, would also cross the NCNC line. Likewise proselytizing for,
or ranting against, any religion would cross it.
That said, I actually found the last bit of Koppa's post, about OpenNIC
and such, quite informative, as I had only heard about them peripherally
before.
And, I most certainly would not want us to reach a point where ending
one's message with a simple and innocuous "God bless" is seen as
crossing the NCNC line, or where we all have to translate our sigs
because someone *might* have a hidden religious or political message in
them. That would strike me as crossing the censorship line.
I do remember less civil times on this list, but mainly what I saw was a
group of individuals who either ignored or slammed those of us who do
not have linguistics degrees. Which isn't something I've experienced
since I rejoined the list a few years ago. If there was a lot of NCNC
uncivility it apparently happened during the years I was gone.
On 01/19/2012 07:28 PM, Ben Scerri wrote:
> Quite frankly, I think the whole thing is being massively exaggerated and
> given WAY to much importance.
>
> So he has a non-NCNC sig. Who cares? Don't like it, don't look at it.
>
> This truely is censorship at its worst if one cannot even state an opinion
> that is not even slightly flaming. He was not saying that it was anyones
> fault, he was merely stating his opinion on matters in the world. I'm
> sorry, but if you take offense to his opinion, then that is your fault, and
> I will defend his right to say it.
>
> On 20 January 2012 10:33, And Rosta<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> R A Brown, On 19/01/2012 14:17:
>>
>> On 19/01/2012 12:49, And Rosta wrote:
>>>> NCNC began simply as a maxim of tact, a tactic for
>>>> avoiding upsetting other list-members. It then over time
>>>> became widely understood to be a rule of etiquette,
>>>>
>>> Surely you still recall the days, long years ago, when the
>>> list was not the most pleasant of places and mud was flung
>>> around? There is no question in my mind that it is an
>>> immeasurably better and more productive place now.
>>>
>> I honestly don't recall the list ever being like that, and nor do I recall
>> any traumatic periods of NCNC-violations or NCNClessness. But my memory may
>> be faulty, or I might have a different notion of what is mud -- I don't
>> know.
>>
>>
>> Yes, it has become a widely understood rule of etiquette.
>>> any transgression of which automatically places the
>>>> transgressor in the wrong. And now it appears to have
>>>> become a rule whose transgression will result in the
>>>> transgressor being prevented from posting.
>>>>
>>> This is surely unfair. I do not think that Henrik has ever
>>> set anyone to NOPOST without prior request to act
>>> differently or without warning.
>>>
>>> It was IIRC two or three weeks back that Charlie drew
>>> Koppa's attention to the fact that his sig might appear to
>>> contravene the NCNC etiquette - but Koppa didn't even the
>>> decency to respond. Personally I thought from his sig that
>>> either he didn't live on the same planet as I do, or he was
>>> trying to fan a few flames, which he didn't.
>>>
>>> But it is quite clear, isn't it, that Henrik did ask Koppa
>>> to change the sig (probably, tho I do not know, because of
>>> private complaints being made to Henrik).
>>>
>> My comments weren't really critical of Henrik, and weren't unfair. I
>> didn't say Koppa had been silenced without warning. I affirmed faith in
>> Henrik's benevolence. I acknowledged that Henrik was probably carrying out
>> the List's collective will.
>>
>>
>>
>>> but I regret the way NCNC has evolved, from a situation
>>>> in which an individual's behaviour was regulated by the
>>>> individual themself, via a situation in which it was
>>>> regulated by the forces of community censure, to a
>>>> situation in which the individual's behaviour is
>>>> regulated by the list administrator.
>>>>
>>> Personally I think this is overstating the case. Surely _it
>>> still is_ something we expect to be (and usually is)
>>> regulated by an individual her-/him-self; if it is not, then
>>> for sure one or two people will politely point it out and,
>>> more often than not, the individual puts it right. It is
>>> surely only when a situation has persisted that the
>>> administrator steps in and tries to get the problem sorted out.
>>>
>>> To the best of my knowledge Henrik has only twice set
>>> someone to NOPOST and, I'm darn sure, it was only as a last
>>> resort after efforts were made off-line to do things
>>> differently.
>>>
>>> I sense, though, that this evolution is in accordance
>>>> with the wishes of most listmembers.
>>>>
>>> No, I would not wish the Benevolent Dictator to be the
>>> person who regulated an individual's behavior.
>>>
>>> Self-regulation is the best; when that doesn't work, there
>>> is peer regulation and IMO the Benevolent Dictator should
>>> be, and is, the last resort. I firmly believe Henrik does
>>> not set anybody to NOPOST lightly and only does so after all
>>> other efforts have failed.
>>>
>> The individual is regulating themself only when they may choose to flout
>> NCNC: if their only options are to obey NCNC or be forcibly silenced, then
>> obedience to NCNC cannot justly be said to be chosen, and the regulation is
>> being done by the powers that can forcibly silence.
>>
>> I would rather everyone was free to use whatever signature they liked; and
>> to me, forcibly silencing someone for NCNC violation is worse than NCNC
>> violation. I do appreciate that you don't agree, and of course I don't mean
>> this statement of my views as an attack on you or Henrik.
>>
>> --And.
>>
Messages in this topic (22)
________________________________________________________________________
4d. Re: Meta: Signatures...
Posted by: "Garth Wallace" [email protected]
Date: Thu Jan 19, 2012 7:05 pm ((PST))
On Thu, Jan 19, 2012 at 3:33 PM, And Rosta <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> The individual is regulating themself only when they may choose to flout
> NCNC: if their only options are to obey NCNC or be forcibly silenced, then
> obedience to NCNC cannot justly be said to be chosen, and the regulation is
> being done by the powers that can forcibly silence.
>
> I would rather everyone was free to use whatever signature they liked; and
> to me, forcibly silencing someone for NCNC violation is worse than NCNC
> violation. I do appreciate that you don't agree, and of course I don't mean
> this statement of my views as an attack on you or Henrik.
I'm surprised Henrik cited the sig as the reason. Signatures seem like
a grey area, because they're typically not considered part of the
actual content of the email and for most people they're set once for
all outgoing mail (some people have more sophisticated email software
that allows sigs to be selected based on recipient, but not many) so
regulating content of signatures could be seen as intruding on things
outside of the list itself. But the email about SOPA was blatantly
political and entirely offtopic, and no such argument could really
apply.
Messages in this topic (22)
________________________________________________________________________
4e. Re: Meta: Signatures...
Posted by: "R A Brown" [email protected]
Date: Fri Jan 20, 2012 1:24 am ((PST))
On 19/01/2012 23:33, And Rosta wrote:
> R A Brown, On 19/01/2012 14:17:
[snip]
>> Surely you still recall the days, long years ago, when
>> the list was not the most pleasant of places and mud
>> was flung around? There is no question in my mind that
>> it is an immeasurably better and more productive place
>> now.
>
> I honestly don't recall the list ever being like that,
> and nor do I recall any traumatic periods of
> NCNC-violations or NCNClessness. But my memory may be
> faulty, or I might have a different notion of what is
> mud -- I don't know.
It's somewhat ancient history - I'll answer it off-list.
[snip]
> The individual is regulating themself only when they may
> choose to flout NCNC: if their only options are to obey
> NCNC or be forcibly silenced, then obedience to NCNC
> cannot justly be said to be chosen, and the regulation
> is being done by the powers that can forcibly silence.
I do not really understand the logic. Surely we are all on
this list free agents and each one of us is quite free to
flout the NCNC convention/ etiquette. The fact that most of
us do not do so is surely because of our own self-regulation
because we do not want to cause offense to other list
members - in my case this is certainly true.
If I join a society or club or whatever and _chose_ to
adhere to certain conventions am I not doing so because I
have made that choice?
> I would rather everyone was free to use whatever
> signature they liked;
I think basically we are - but if it is drawn to our
attention that we are causing offense, would not most us say
"sorry" and rephrase it so as not to cause offense? There
seems to be a (or has been) consensus that we do not want to
offend one another (tho the current "ZBB offline now" thread
makes one wonder).
In any case, it seems to be generally thought that Koppa
went way too far with his SOPA post.
My own view is:
1. We do not have full information on what passed between
Henrik and Koppa.
2. I trust Henrik's judgment.
..and as I said, I really do think we ought to be moving on.
--
Ray
==================================
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
Nid rhy hen neb i ddysgu.
There's none too old to learn.
[WELSH PROVERB]
Messages in this topic (22)
________________________________________________________________________
4f. PRIVATE Re: Meta: Signatures...
Posted by: "R A Brown" [email protected]
Date: Fri Jan 20, 2012 1:50 am ((PST))
PRIVATE
On 19/01/2012 23:33, And Rosta wrote:
> R A Brown, On 19/01/2012 14:17:
[snip]
>> Surely you still recall the days, long years ago, when
>> the list was not the most pleasant of places and mud
>> was flung around? There is no question in my mind that
>> it is an immeasurably better and more productive place
>> now.
>
> I honestly don't recall the list ever being like that,
> and nor do I recall any traumatic periods of
> NCNC-violations or NCNClessness. But my memory may be
> faulty, or I might have a different notion of what is mud
> -- I don't know.
Back in 1996 things were not too pleasant. There was a guy
called Edmundo who particularly liked to be offensive and
rude; but it was not just confined to him.
Things got so unpleasant that at the beginning of 1997 Rick
Harrison and a few others set up a new list called Langdev
(Language Development) with a very high principled Charter
(of which I still have a copy). The list had a moderator -
Rick at first and then IIRC John Cowan later. After the
initial set up one could join that list only by invitation
and then only with the agreement of all members.
I was not involved in the initial set up, but was invited to
join a month or so later. To begin with everything was very
nice and friendly, but as that list got larger a certain
tetchiness did begin to set in; also by that time the
Conlang list had itself become a much pleasanter place. So
when Sally Caves was invited to join Langdev, she found it
was not quite the paradise she had been led to believe it
was and wondered in what way it was supposed to be better
than Conlang.
The crunch came when Rick himself, for no apparent reason,
delivered a blistering attack on Christianity which
blatantly violated the terms of the Charter he himself had
written a few years before. I replied to the email, adding
that, as in doing so I had violated the Langdev Charter, I
was resigning forthwith. My understanding is that the
Langdev list ceased to be active shortly afterwards.
On the whole, since the turn of the century (and millennium)
things on Conlang have been fairly civilized, with the odd
hiccup or two, but nothing so bad as to make people want to
try and set up another list.
I do not know what goes on behind the scenes, but I do know
some members were finding Mike Everson a pain and asking
Henrik to remove him (I was not one of those members).
Henrik asked my advice and, I understand, that of several
other list members.
I notice that Mike is still with us so I guess things have
got sorted out - which is a good thing if differences can be
ironed out amicably.
--
Ray
==================================
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
Nid rhy hen neb i ddysgu.
There's none too old to learn.
[WELSH PROVERB]
Messages in this topic (22)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
5a. Crisis averted
Posted by: "Scott Hlad" [email protected]
Date: Thu Jan 19, 2012 7:36 pm ((PST))
Hello fellow conlangers,
I hoping that no one else has to go through what I just went through. I keep
my two conlangs on a memory stick. When I have a coffee break at work, I
sometimes spend that time conlanging. I misplaced that memory stick. I was
horrified as I did not keep a back up on either my computer or my external
hard drive. I thought of the countless hours of lost time and creativity.
The only thing I had was a pdf in my Kindle of a the grammar I've been
writing for my second and newest language. I was fortunate: I found the
memory stick. All of my work has been spared! I hope that others are keeping
their work backed up so that no one has to face that fear!
Scotto
Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
5b. Re: Crisis averted
Posted by: "yuri" [email protected]
Date: Thu Jan 19, 2012 10:15 pm ((PST))
On 20 January 2012 16:40, Scott Hlad wrote:
> [...] I keep my two conlangs on a memory stick. [...] I did not keep a
> back up on either my computer or my external hard drive [...] I hope
> that others are keeping their work backed up.
I'm glad you learned you lesson and shared so others can learn too.
It's not hard to email your files to your gmail/hotmail/yahoo account.
Yuri
Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
5c. Re: Crisis averted
Posted by: "taliesin the storyteller" [email protected]
Date: Thu Jan 19, 2012 11:57 pm ((PST))
On 2012-01-20 04:40, Scott Hlad wrote:
> I keep my two conlangs on a memory stick. When I have a coffee break
> at work, I sometimes spend that time conlanging. I misplaced that
> memory stick. /../ I was fortunate: I found the memory stick. All of
> my work has been spared! I hope that others are keeping their work
> backed up so that no one has to face that fear!
Have more than one memory stick and use the others as backup: copy
everything from the used stick to the backup sticks, and keep one backup
at home and one offsite, with a relative or friend. It used to be
possible to have a physical box at the bank but those are being phased
out, at least where I live.
t.
Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
5d. Re: Crisis averted
Posted by: "Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets" [email protected]
Date: Fri Jan 20, 2012 12:32 am ((PST))
On 20 January 2012 08:56, taliesin the storyteller <[email protected]
> wrote:
>
> Have more than one memory stick and use the others as backup: copy
> everything from the used stick to the backup sticks, and keep one backup at
> home and one offsite, with a relative or friend. It used to be possible to
> have a physical box at the bank but those are being phased out, at least
> where I live.
>
>
Besides all the work that I still have written by hand on actual dead
trees, everything I do online ends up on Github, which makes it easy to
have copies around on any and all computers :) . Since git is a
decentralised version control system, every copy on every computer contains
everything, so even if Github itself went belly up I would still have got
all my work :) .
Of course, this works best with simple text files, which is why I use
Toolbox for my dictionary, and other text is written in simple text files
using RedCloth markup.
--
Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets.
http://christophoronomicon.blogspot.com/
http://www.christophoronomicon.nl/
Messages in this topic (4)
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