There are 25 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. Re: Language that Don't Change
From: Matthew Boutilier
1b. Re: Language that Don't Change
From: Tony Harris
1c. Re: Language that Don't Change
From: Padraic Brown
1d. Re: Language that Don't Change
From: BPJ
1e. Re: Language that Don't Change
From: kechpaja
1f. Re: Language that Don't Change
From: Tony Harris
1g. Re: Language that Don't Change
From: Matthew Boutilier
1h. Re: Language that Don't Change
From: Tony Harris
1i. Re: Language that Don't Change
From: George Corley
1j. Re: Language that Don't Change
From: Matthew Boutilier
2a. Re: Fusional Evidentiality on Nouns
From: Roman Rausch
2b. Re: Fusional Evidentiality on Nouns
From: Alex Fink
3a. Re: Lnguages that Don't Change
From: Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
3b. Re: Lnguages that Don't Change
From: Tony Harris
3c. Re: Lnguages that Don't Change
From: Patrick Dunn
3d. Re: Lnguages that Don't Change
From: Alex Fink
3e. Re: Lnguages that Don't Change
From: Adam Walker
3f. Re: Lnguages that Don't Change
From: Brian Woodward
3g. Re: Lnguages that Don't Change
From: Sam Stutter
3h. Re: Lnguages that Don't Change
From: Adam Walker
4a. Re: Madeline Palmer's Draconic Language (Fiat Lingua)
From: Jörg Rhiemeier
4b. Re: Madeline Palmer's Draconic Language (Fiat Lingua)
From: Padraic Brown
5a. Re: Phonotactics Help
From: Brian Woodward
6. Re: Languages that Don't Change
From: Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
7. NATLANG: Amharic, and Ethiopian local languages
From: Paul Bennett
Messages
________________________________________________________________________
1a. Re: Language that Don't Change
Posted by: "Matthew Boutilier" [email protected]
Date: Mon Feb 6, 2012 8:08 am ((PST))
>
> So that could be one of its laws?Sounds cool! What do you mean by an
> idealic society?
>
well, by idyllic society i meant that *if* i had to picture a culture
bereft of language change (which, in my opinion, takes most of the fun out
of it), it seems more than likely that the culture itself would also not
change over time, and and that therefore this culture is somehow paradisic
and innocent and isolated from the rest of the changing world. and, since
many factors for linguistic change arise with children (mis)learning their
mother language, if this language were spoken by creatures who never are
born nor die, that would for me at least begin to explain its immutability.
obviously that's not a requirement; in my head it seemed to make sense,
however. i can't stop thinking of ents (the tree-people, if you're
unfamiliar, who take years to utter single sentences; in this case, any
phonetic or semantic shift could start after the sentence begins and finish
before it's over ... probably obscuring the meaning substantially; for this
reason i find it hard to believe that theirs is a language which ever
changes).
So, well, for the third problem, You really can have an army of grammar
> nazi inquisition who check whether the word is used in a "righteous" way.
>
this is a short story that i've been dying to write. less with an
enforcement of "correct" phonetics and syntax (i'm not actually imagining a
stagnating language altogether) but with semantics: if you use a word to
mean something it's not supposed to mean, you're a perjurer and are going
to do hard time. i think the poets would have a particularly difficult time
with this. anyway, you need to obtain permission from the government for
each word you want to add to your vocabulary before using it, demonstrating
that you are apprised of its complete semantic and etymological
significance. it's a work in progress.
For the examples in natlang, the Latin
> "calidus" - "warm" is cognate with English "cold"
>
for the sake of correctness ... grimm's law (through which germanic *k-
corresponds to latin *g-) precludes the cognatehood of these words. "cold"
(PGmc *kaldaz) in fact reflects an o-grade of PIE *gel-, from which comes
latin *gelÅ* "to freeze, congeal" -- whence con*geal*, *gel*ato, etc.
as far as *calidus*, however, i am finding conflicting accounts
1. one is positing PIE *kÌelto- "cold" as the source, which sounds more
familiar to me and seems to jibe more with what you wrote. this is
certainly an interesting semantic shift. perhaps it went "cold" >
"cool~lukewarm" (e.g. of soup) > "lukewarm-as-opposed-to-hot" >
"lukewarm-as-opposed-to-cold" > "warm~lukewarm" (e.g. of ice cream) >
"hot." anyone know what the indo-europeans called ice cream?
2. another is positing PIE *kele- to which apparently skt *carad*-
"harvest," lith *silti* "become warm," and OE *hlÄow *"sheltered, warm" are
related.
i wonder which source for *calidus *is correct.
cheers
matt
On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 3:29 AM, Nikolay Ivankov <[email protected]>wrote:
> On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 5:58 AM, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews <
> [email protected]> wrote:
>
> > Are there languages that don't change? If Yardish doesn't change, how
> > could that affect the Yemorans? Since they're mostly telepaths, does that
> > make telepathy a language or a sense?
> > Nicole Andrews
> >
> > Pen name Mellissa Green
> > Budding novelist
> > Tweet me
> >
> >
> >
> > @greenNovelist
> >
>
>
> There has already been a discussion about a language that does not change.
> If You do not mind looking the archives of the list, you may probably find
> it.
>
> In fact, the speed of changing of the language depends on many factors. The
> less people speak it, and the less contacts they have with people speaking
> other languages. That's how it was with, say, Lithuanian, Romanian or
> Arabic. These language sound much closer to Proto-Indoi-European, and Latin
> then Proto-Semitic other languages of their groups, because they were
> separated by foresrs, desert and mountians form the rest of the word.
>
> However, it worth saying that the terms "Lithuanian", "Romainan" or
> "Arabic" are a bit artificial here. The first two were made by sort of
> averaging of different dialects. As for Arabic, the literature and spoken
> norm was sort of fixed by the Quran, and the modern dialects differ from
> this language much less then, say, modern French or Spanish from Latin. But
> still, even Arabic has diversified in many ways, so (being no champion in
> it, of course) I presume that it would be not so easy for two people from?
> for instance, Egipt and Yemen to understand each other when they speak
> their common languages. though not completely impossible, of course.
>
> Still, even these languages have changed. Even the dead language may
> change, for as far as I know the history knew different fashions in Latin,
> which, by far, was not really learned by anyone as a first language.
>
> If you want to STOP the change, you have to be aware of similar processes
> that go simultaneously:
>
> 1. The pronounciation changes. The speaker tends to chew the words in order
> to lose less energy while speaking. Some people hearing them may start
> pronouncing things sililarily - say, when the children imitate their
> parents, or just wehen the other thinks that this person's speech sounds
> "sorta cool". But speaking is something about sharing the information with
> the listener, and at some point the listener, you know, misses the point.
> At this moment the speaker should clarify her/himselves. He/she can do it
> by just returning back to what is supposed to be the norm. Or
>
> 2. The speaker may clarify the meaning by something new. That is one of the
> reasons why the structure of the sentences changed. For instance, at some
> point in history the People speaking English "found" that it's too boring
> to pronounce cases. So the cases were abandoned, but the price they had to
> pay to understand each other was fixing the word order.
>
> 3. Finally, the meaning of words changes constantly, even if no new words
> are invented. You can see the patterns of constructed change of meanings
> now and then in the mailing list. For the examples in natlang, the Latin
> "calidus" - "warm" is cognate with English "cold". In a few centuries the
> russian word for "residence" became "cemetry", and in few decades the word
> for "definitely" became "maybe". Everyone knows the meaning of cool as not
> only being "not too warm" by now, but how long ago has it became into play.
>
> The less people You talk to, the less is the probability that You'll catch
> something new and chang your own language. For even the speech of the same
> person changes within time. But that is all just about the speed of change,
> not about the stop.
>
> So, well, for the third problem, You really can have an army of grammar
> nazi inquisition who check whether the word is used in a "righteous" way.
> Thogh, Lois XIV, who tried to fix the norm for French for eternity, failed.
> As for the first two - I don't know how could it be possible.
>
> So, I've already written a bit too much, I suppose, but there is two more
> things to add in general.
>
> First of all, alongside with trying to understand how to make a language,
> it is worth pay an attention to what a language actually is. For this
> purpose I'd recommend You the books by S. Pinker: "The Language Instinct"
> and "The Stuff of Thought". Though they may be quite questionable, they can
> give a first understanding of WHAT a language is for the ones who are far
> (or just still far) from lingustics (like me).
>
> Seconly, as a novelist who faded without blooming, I'd say that telepathy
> is... well... became a mark of budding novelist. Like rhyming "love" and
> "blood", Y'know. It doesn't mean that thelepathy is stricly forbidden now,
> but in order to make an impressin on the reader, You need to make it really
> indispensible in your novel. And this, as the professor said, requires
> "some kind of elvish craft".
>
> Best,
>
> Kolya
>
Messages in this topic (16)
________________________________________________________________________
1b. Re: Language that Don't Change
Posted by: "Tony Harris" [email protected]
Date: Mon Feb 6, 2012 8:18 am ((PST))
I would also observe that languages change at very different rates.
English of 1500AD is really very different than English of 2000AD, to
the point that reading things written at that point is a strain, let
alone the pronunciation differences. However my understanding is that
Icelandic of the sagas, written somewhat before 1500AD, are still
readable by students in school in Iceland today without more effort than
English students reading Dickens.
I believe Greek had a similar slow rate of change, and perhaps Egyptian
as well during its 3500 or so years as a spoken language.
I have envisioned Alurhsa being very similar. Does it change? Yes, but
*VERY* slowly.
On 02/06/2012 01:06 AM, Patrick Dunn wrote:
> On Sun, Feb 5, 2012 at 11:11 PM, Matthew Boutilier
> <[email protected]>wrote:
>
>>> Are there languages that don't change?
>>>
>> no. not spoken languages. not real ones.
>> but that's not a rule that's consistently followed in fantasy, or
>> necessarily ought to be.
>>
>> Since they're mostly telepaths, does that make telepathy a language or a
>>> sense?
>>>
>> i think telepathy would be a *medium* for their language. like speech, or
>> writing, or signing. assuming their telepathy involves pronounceable
>> yardish words, and isn't some kind of mental logographic morse code where a
>> certain frequency of signal means "tree."
>>
>> If Yardish doesn't change, how could that affect the Yemorans?
>> this is an interesting question. obviously real-world history can't answer
>> it for you, since this isn't a real situation. personally, i would be more
>> interested in knowing what cultural factors are responsible for the
>> language not changing. i'm picturing a kind of idyllic lothlorien of
>> timeless creatures who are impervious to the passage of time and somehow
>> have minds that transcend it, whatever that means. on the other hand, you
>> could have a society whose penalty for grammar-rule-breaking is immediate
>> decapitation.
>>
>>
> If the Yemorans have human nervous systems, this will quickly lead to
> negative population growth and eventual extinction.
>
> Language change is hard-wired into the human brain. Or at least, so seems
> the most likely explanation. (The one I prefer is that it's hard-wired
> into the very structure of information itself, but we Platonists don't get
> much room in academia these days)
>
> --Patrick
>
>
Messages in this topic (16)
________________________________________________________________________
1c. Re: Language that Don't Change
Posted by: "Padraic Brown" [email protected]
Date: Mon Feb 6, 2012 8:57 am ((PST))
--- On Mon, 2/6/12, Matthew Boutilier <[email protected]> wrote:
> > So, well, for the third problem, You really can have an army
> > of grammar nazi inquisition who check whether the word is used in
> > a "righteous" way.
>
> this is a short story that i've been dying to write. less
> with an enforcement of "correct" phonetics and syntax (i'm not
> actually imagining a stagnating language altogether) but with semantics:
> if you use a word to mean something it's not supposed to mean, you're a
> perjurer and are going to do hard time.
Hints of 1984 here.
I'd like to read that story when you get it written!
> i think the poets would have a particularly difficult time
> with this. anyway, you need to obtain permission from the
> government for
> each word you want to add to your vocabulary before using
> it, demonstrating
> that you are apprised of its complete semantic and
> etymological significance. it's a work in progress.
Ha! Sounds interesting!
Padraic
Messages in this topic (16)
________________________________________________________________________
1d. Re: Language that Don't Change
Posted by: "BPJ" [email protected]
Date: Mon Feb 6, 2012 12:03 pm ((PST))
On 2012-02-06 17:18, Tony Harris wrote:
> However my understanding is that Icelandic of the sagas, written
> somewhat before 1500AD, are still readable by students in school
> in Iceland today without more effort than English students reading
> Dickens.
If it has been retranscribed into modern spelling! The
old manuscripts are written in gothic hands, full of
ligatures, abbreviations, _notae_ and more or less
strange digraphs and diacritics the usage of which was
almost completely unregulated. This said the
differences in morphology and vocabulary are slight
once you have penetrated the 'orthography'.
Pronunciation, especially of old long vowels, has
changed somewhat more drastically, but there have been
no splits and few mergers, and the differences are
masked by an etymologicizing modern orthography, using
_á é ó æ_ for what are now diphthongs. Now remember
that Iceland for most of its history was almost
completely isolated and populated by a small number of
dirt poor people constantly at the brink of starvation.
A high price to pay for linguistic stability, for sure!
/bpj
Messages in this topic (16)
________________________________________________________________________
1e. Re: Language that Don't Change
Posted by: "kechpaja" [email protected]
Date: Mon Feb 6, 2012 4:22 pm ((PST))
Not exactly the same thing, but I've had this idea bouncing around for a while,
so I figured I'd share it: How about a language spoken by time travelers (or
some similarly temporally non-linear people), whose past and future were
constantly interacting? My idea â or at least the idea I'm using as I
implement this language â is that it would evolve not over time but along
some dimension that lies at a right angle to time. Depending on the
distribution of the speakers, and whether they prefered to move around in space
or through time, the language might even change primarily over space rather
than time.
Just something interesting to explore...
-Kelvin
Messages in this topic (16)
________________________________________________________________________
1f. Re: Language that Don't Change
Posted by: "Tony Harris" [email protected]
Date: Mon Feb 6, 2012 5:33 pm ((PST))
I have to admit I've always wondered what the Gallifreyan language would
be like, given exactly that issue.
On 02/06/2012 07:22 PM, kechpaja wrote:
> Not exactly the same thing, but I've had this idea bouncing around for a
> while, so I figured I'd share it: How about a language spoken by time
> travelers (or some similarly temporally non-linear people), whose past and
> future were constantly interacting? My idea â or at least the idea I'm
> using as I implement this language â is that it would evolve not over time
> but along some dimension that lies at a right angle to time. Depending on the
> distribution of the speakers, and whether they prefered to move around in
> space or through time, the language might even change primarily over space
> rather than time.
>
> Just something interesting to explore...
>
> -Kelvin
Messages in this topic (16)
________________________________________________________________________
1g. Re: Language that Don't Change
Posted by: "Matthew Boutilier" [email protected]
Date: Mon Feb 6, 2012 5:48 pm ((PST))
>
> I have to admit I've always wondered what the Gallifreyan language would
> be like, given exactly that issue.
>
too bad the TARDIS will just translate it into contemporary english for you.
matt
On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 7:33 PM, Tony Harris <[email protected]> wrote:
> I have to admit I've always wondered what the Gallifreyan language would
> be like, given exactly that issue.
>
>
> On 02/06/2012 07:22 PM, kechpaja wrote:
>
>> Not exactly the same thing, but I've had this idea bouncing around for a
>> while, so I figured I'd share it: How about a language spoken by time
>> travelers (or some similarly temporally non-linear people), whose past and
>> future were constantly interacting? My idea or at least the idea I'm
>> using as I implement this language is that it would evolve not over time
>> but along some dimension that lies at a right angle to time. Depending on
>> the distribution of the speakers, and whether they prefered to move around
>> in space or through time, the language might even change primarily over
>> space rather than time.
>>
>> Just something interesting to explore...
>>
>> -Kelvin
>>
>
Messages in this topic (16)
________________________________________________________________________
1h. Re: Language that Don't Change
Posted by: "Tony Harris" [email protected]
Date: Mon Feb 6, 2012 5:51 pm ((PST))
Certainly writing styles are another issue. I know some Latin and
Greek, but I find the medieval manuscripts absolutely baffling to read.
And those are languages that most definitely haven't changed!
As for Iceland's reasons for having linguistic stability, I definitely
wasn't commenting on whether that was good or bad (and it does indeed
sound like a high price to pay in their case). In the fictional
scenario with the linguistic legal body and overzealous
grammar/vocabulary police that doesn't sound like a good place either.
But, stability it would be.
Anyone know anything about the Egyptian possibility I mentioned? I know
the written language didn't change that much, but what do we know (if
anything) about the spoken language over its 3500 year history?
On 02/06/2012 03:03 PM, BPJ wrote:
> On 2012-02-06 17:18, Tony Harris wrote:
>> However my understanding is that Icelandic of the sagas, written
>> somewhat before 1500AD, are still readable by students in school
>> in Iceland today without more effort than English students reading
>> Dickens.
>
> If it has been retranscribed into modern spelling! The
> old manuscripts are written in gothic hands, full of
> ligatures, abbreviations, _notae_ and more or less
> strange digraphs and diacritics the usage of which was
> almost completely unregulated. This said the
> differences in morphology and vocabulary are slight
> once you have penetrated the 'orthography'.
> Pronunciation, especially of old long vowels, has
> changed somewhat more drastically, but there have been
> no splits and few mergers, and the differences are
> masked by an etymologicizing modern orthography, using
> _á é ó æ_ for what are now diphthongs. Now remember
> that Iceland for most of its history was almost
> completely isolated and populated by a small number of
> dirt poor people constantly at the brink of starvation.
> A high price to pay for linguistic stability, for sure!
>
> /bpj
Messages in this topic (16)
________________________________________________________________________
1i. Re: Language that Don't Change
Posted by: "George Corley" [email protected]
Date: Mon Feb 6, 2012 5:54 pm ((PST))
Well, the Time Lords have the technology for near-perfect machine
translations (the the extent that the TARDIS is a machine), so they may not
have a problem even when traveling to different times on Gallifrey.
Messages in this topic (16)
________________________________________________________________________
1j. Re: Language that Don't Change
Posted by: "Matthew Boutilier" [email protected]
Date: Mon Feb 6, 2012 6:39 pm ((PST))
>
> Anyone know anything about the Egyptian possibility I mentioned? I know
> the written language didn't change that much, but what do we know (if
> anything) about the spoken language over its 3500 year history?
>
egyptian changed quite a lot. as per the hieroglyphic writing system, this *
did* change substantially from old, to middle, to late egyptian, with the
addition and deletion of many signs, the truncation of the consonant bases
some of them spelled out, the function of determinatives, how to mark
plurals, etc. however, it's true that, for example, the "house"
*sign*looks basically the same in the ptolemaic era as it did c. 3000
BC. but
then again, our capital latin letters look basically the same as they did
for cicero.
in the past decades our knowledge of the phonology of hieroglyphic
(pre-coptic) egyptian has grown a huge amount ... especially with input
from the ever-better-reconstructed proto-afroasiatic (or
proto-hamito-semitic as it's sometimes called). all i can say while
remaining somewhat brief is that although we are often unclear about
exactly *when* a particular sound change might have happened (more unclear
than within most other recorded languages, owing to the nature of the
writing system), there is ample justification for much of the vocalizations
of hieroglyphic (consonantal) writings that are being ascribed, and these
point to substantial phonological and syntactical shift as would be
expected in any linguistic tradition. late egyptian totally revamps the
verbal system of middle egyptian with new paraphrases for tense
designations, and begins to use what were previously demonstratives as
never-before-seen definite articles; and coptic takes these developments
even further. throughout old and middle egyptian, the ancestral phonemes of
proto-afroasiatic were basically puréed among each other for the duration
of that period. the kinds of shifts and especially mergers you get are
astounding.
an example of a well-established phonological migration would look thus:
hieroglyphic *ntr* "god" of older egyptian, probably vocalized something
like *na:car at some point (where <c> is that very IPA value, palatal /c/)
quickly becomes *na:tar with *c > *t (in middle egyptian there is much
confusion between the signs for *c and *t), you get a
great-vowel-shift-reminiscent *a: > *o: across the board to *no:tar and
then perhaps a reduction of unstressed /a/ to *no:ter (accounting e.g. for
the /ho:tep/ of "Amenhotep," written as *jmn-h.tp*, with the 2nd element
probably reflecting earlier *ha:tip; /e/ does/should not exist in
proto-afroasiatic or the oldest hieroglyphic egyptian); after nasals,
probably before late egyptian, *o: > *u: (maybe earlier, as a corollary to
*a: > *o:); final /r/ is lost (along with the feminine ending final *-t ...
like french!), and thus *na:car > coptic ÎÎΥΤΠ*nÅ«te*, "(the christian)
god." just for a sample.
in short egyptian was by no means spared the effects of linguistic change.
if i understand correctly, restricted change correlates better with
politically or geographically isolated societies (like iceland) and worse
with large interactions of diverse groups (i was reading recently that it
was directly after a large boost in london's urban population, with former
farmers from various areas moving into the big city, that the very
complicated definite article of OE became radically simplified to "þe" --
or perhaps with one or two more forms still in middle english, i don't do
ME).
As for Arabic, the literature and spoken
> norm was sort of fixed by the Quran, and the modern dialects differ from
> this language much less then, say, modern French or Spanish from Latin. But
> still, even Arabic has diversified in many ways, so (being no champion in
> it, of course) I presume that it would be not so easy for two people from?
>
it's true that after c. 1400 years of widespread geographic diversity,
arabic dialects are still startlingly similar to one another in many ways,
particular egyptian arabic and eastward (things get fuzzier as you go west,
in large part due to french and berber influence). but consider, even, the *
pre-*quranic stability of arabic. i'm no sociologist, but i imagine what
with the arabs of that time being essentially nomadic tribes in the desert,
whose present-day cities were little more than encampments, you've got a
similar situation of isolation as the oft-cited iceland. the arabic in
which the quran is written (essentially, therefore, modern standard arabic
as well) has bafflingly few phonological or morphological deviations from
what is now reconstructed for proto-semitic. obviously there are *some* in
both category (and syntax as well; whatever). but consider that this is a
language recorded in the 600s, and the ancestral semitic language or group
of dialects began diverging some 4000 years prior to that. if you ever take
it upon yourself to learn akkadian (or its daughter dialects of babylonian
and assyrian), whose chronological continuum lasted from about 3000 BC to
somewhere around the time of the roman empire, and its internal own sound
changes have obscured the provenance of a particular word for you to the
point of illegibility, look to *modern *arabic and chances are decent
you'll find a *more* archaic form of the same word. wow.
wesaþ hÄle
matt
On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 7:51 PM, Tony Harris <[email protected]> wrote:
> Certainly writing styles are another issue. I know some Latin and Greek,
> but I find the medieval manuscripts absolutely baffling to read. And those
> are languages that most definitely haven't changed!
>
> As for Iceland's reasons for having linguistic stability, I definitely
> wasn't commenting on whether that was good or bad (and it does indeed sound
> like a high price to pay in their case). In the fictional scenario with
> the linguistic legal body and overzealous grammar/vocabulary police that
> doesn't sound like a good place either. But, stability it would be.
>
> Anyone know anything about the Egyptian possibility I mentioned? I know
> the written language didn't change that much, but what do we know (if
> anything) about the spoken language over its 3500 year history?
>
>
>
> On 02/06/2012 03:03 PM, BPJ wrote:
>
>> On 2012-02-06 17:18, Tony Harris wrote:
>>
>>> However my understanding is that Icelandic of the sagas, written
>>> somewhat before 1500AD, are still readable by students in school
>>> in Iceland today without more effort than English students reading
>>> Dickens.
>>>
>>
>> If it has been retranscribed into modern spelling! The
>> old manuscripts are written in gothic hands, full of
>> ligatures, abbreviations, _notae_ and more or less
>> strange digraphs and diacritics the usage of which was
>> almost completely unregulated. This said the
>> differences in morphology and vocabulary are slight
>> once you have penetrated the 'orthography'.
>> Pronunciation, especially of old long vowels, has
>> changed somewhat more drastically, but there have been
>> no splits and few mergers, and the differences are
>> masked by an etymologicizing modern orthography, using
>> _á é ó æ_ for what are now diphthongs. Now remember
>> that Iceland for most of its history was almost
>> completely isolated and populated by a small number of
>> dirt poor people constantly at the brink of starvation.
>> A high price to pay for linguistic stability, for sure!
>>
>> /bpj
>>
>
Messages in this topic (16)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
2a. Re: Fusional Evidentiality on Nouns
Posted by: "Roman Rausch" [email protected]
Date: Mon Feb 6, 2012 8:13 am ((PST))
>Now the question is, can anyone think of a reasonable way that such a
>system might evolve? Specifically, the "marking evidentiality on all
>nouns" part; once you've got that, evolution of fusional inflections
>is easy.
In Indo-European participles retain tense and voice and have a nominal
usage. I don't actually know whether they retain evidentiality in languages
where it is marked on the verb, but if they do, you can get participles like
'the evidently coming' or 'the allegedly deceased' and thereby already a
subclass of nouns with evidentiality marking.
Analogy might make it spread to ordinary nouns, but if this is not enough,
one can think of some phonological accident which confuses things and gets
it rolling, i.e. some marking on the noun (gender, article, number, ...)
which by coincidence would be very close to the participle/evidentiality
marking.
Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
2b. Re: Fusional Evidentiality on Nouns
Posted by: "Alex Fink" [email protected]
Date: Mon Feb 6, 2012 8:40 am ((PST))
On Sun, 5 Feb 2012 11:43:32 -0700, Logan Kearsley <[email protected]>
wrote:
>Now the question is, can anyone think of a reasonable way that such a
>system might evolve? Specifically, the "marking evidentiality on all
>nouns" part; once you've got that, evolution of fusional inflections
>is easy.
Perhaps the easiest way to imagine it happening is the one without semantic
change: just glom onto the noun some adjectives etc. that mean "alleged" /
"seeming" / "hypothetical" / "certain" / whatever else.
I would imagine it could also be done from a deictic system; probably more
likely one with more than two or three terms. Items in the 'here (near the
speaker)' category might come to be taken as personally experienced, those
in the 'invisibly distant' category as unexperienced, etc. (This is much
like Herman's proposal.)
I was trying to think of a way to get it from definiteness or specificity,
but I couldn't make myself believe it. Could e.g. "the doctor [you know the
guy I mean]" really shift to "the doctor [you know _that he is one_]"?
Alex
Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
3a. Re: Lnguages that Don't Change
Posted by: "Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews" [email protected]
Date: Mon Feb 6, 2012 10:34 am ((PST))
What if Yardish changes, but you have get change legalized, as suggested? Don't
you have to go through some kind of process through getting words in the
dictionary? So that could be why the language doesn't rapidly change?
Nicole Andrews
Pen name Mellissa Green
Budding novelist
Tweet me
@greenNovelist
Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________
3b. Re: Lnguages that Don't Change
Posted by: "Tony Harris" [email protected]
Date: Mon Feb 6, 2012 10:44 am ((PST))
Why not? This is your language living in your world with your culture.
If you have something like the local equivalent of the Académie
Française or the Hebrew Language Academy, but instead of being a
reactive and advisory group it's more of a legislative body that writes
language law that is rigidly enforced by a very zealous,
tradition-oriented enforcement agency in a culture that thinks that's
normal, then go for it.
And yes, I imagine having to go to a concentration camp for
"re-education" if you're caught using slang or neologisms would probably
drastically cut down on both. And produce a linguistic rebel
underground that would also be a wonderful source for story material!
On 02/06/2012 01:34 PM, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews wrote:
> What if Yardish changes, but you have get change legalized, as suggested?
> Don't you have to go through some kind of process through getting words in
> the dictionary? So that could be why the language doesn't rapidly change?
> Nicole Andrews
>
> Pen name Mellissa Green
> Budding novelist
> Tweet me
>
>
>
> @greenNovelist
Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________
3c. Re: Lnguages that Don't Change
Posted by: "Patrick Dunn" [email protected]
Date: Mon Feb 6, 2012 11:14 am ((PST))
What a cool idea that is. I kind of want to write it. :)
--Patrick
On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 12:44 PM, Tony Harris <[email protected]> wrote:
> Why not? This is your language living in your world with your culture.
> If you have something like the local equivalent of the Académie Française
> or the Hebrew Language Academy, but instead of being a reactive and
> advisory group it's more of a legislative body that writes language law
> that is rigidly enforced by a very zealous, tradition-oriented enforcement
> agency in a culture that thinks that's normal, then go for it.
>
> And yes, I imagine having to go to a concentration camp for "re-education"
> if you're caught using slang or neologisms would probably drastically cut
> down on both. And produce a linguistic rebel underground that would also
> be a wonderful source for story material!
>
>
>
> On 02/06/2012 01:34 PM, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews wrote:
>
>> What if Yardish changes, but you have get change legalized, as suggested?
>> Don't you have to go through some kind of process through getting words in
>> the dictionary? So that could be why the language doesn't rapidly change?
>> Nicole Andrews
>>
>> Pen name Mellissa Green
>> Budding novelist
>> Tweet me
>>
>>
>>
>> @greenNovelist
>>
>
--
Second Person, a chapbook of poetry by Patrick Dunn, is now available for
order from Finishing Line
Press<http://www.finishinglinepress.com/NewReleasesandForthcomingTitles.htm>
and
Amazon<http://www.amazon.com/Second-Person-Patrick-Dunn/dp/1599249065/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1324342341&sr=8-2>.
Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________
3d. Re: Lnguages that Don't Change
Posted by: "Alex Fink" [email protected]
Date: Mon Feb 6, 2012 11:49 am ((PST))
On Mon, 6 Feb 2012 13:44:27 -0500, Tony Harris <[email protected]> wrote:
>Why not? This is your language living in your world with your culture.
>If you have something like the local equivalent of the Académie
>Française or the Hebrew Language Academy, but instead of being a
>reactive and advisory group it's more of a legislative body that writes
>language law that is rigidly enforced by a very zealous,
>tradition-oriented enforcement agency in a culture that thinks that's
>normal, then go for it.
Hm, this puts me somewhat in mind of the Confucian idea of rectification of
names, which was AIUI one of the forces that drove the compilation of
Shuo1wen2 Jie3zi4, one of the first Chinese dictionaries.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rectification_of_names
Something like that seems like it'd fit well with this sort of culture.
Alex
Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________
3e. Re: Lnguages that Don't Change
Posted by: "Adam Walker" [email protected]
Date: Mon Feb 6, 2012 1:06 pm ((PST))
Yeah. Me too.
On 2/6/12, Patrick Dunn <[email protected]> wrote:
> What a cool idea that is. I kind of want to write it. :)
>
> --Patrick
>
> On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 12:44 PM, Tony Harris <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Why not? This is your language living in your world with your culture.
>> If you have something like the local equivalent of the Académie Française
>> or the Hebrew Language Academy, but instead of being a reactive and
>> advisory group it's more of a legislative body that writes language law
>> that is rigidly enforced by a very zealous, tradition-oriented enforcement
>> agency in a culture that thinks that's normal, then go for it.
>>
>> And yes, I imagine having to go to a concentration camp for "re-education"
>> if you're caught using slang or neologisms would probably drastically cut
>> down on both. And produce a linguistic rebel underground that would also
>> be a wonderful source for story material!
>>
>>
>>
>> On 02/06/2012 01:34 PM, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews wrote:
>>
>>> What if Yardish changes, but you have get change legalized, as suggested?
>>> Don't you have to go through some kind of process through getting words
>>> in
>>> the dictionary? So that could be why the language doesn't rapidly change?
>>> Nicole Andrews
>>>
>>> Pen name Mellissa Green
>>> Budding novelist
>>> Tweet me
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> @greenNovelist
>>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Second Person, a chapbook of poetry by Patrick Dunn, is now available for
> order from Finishing Line
> Press<http://www.finishinglinepress.com/NewReleasesandForthcomingTitles.htm>
> and
> Amazon<http://www.amazon.com/Second-Person-Patrick-Dunn/dp/1599249065/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1324342341&sr=8-2>.
>
Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________
3f. Re: Lnguages that Don't Change
Posted by: "Brian Woodward" [email protected]
Date: Mon Feb 6, 2012 1:27 pm ((PST))
I'm not much of a writer myself but I'd love to see someone's rendition of
it. It sounds like it would make an awesome story.
On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 3:06 PM, Adam Walker <[email protected]> wrote:
> Yeah. Me too.
>
> On 2/6/12, Patrick Dunn <[email protected]> wrote:
> > What a cool idea that is. I kind of want to write it. :)
> >
> > --Patrick
> >
> > On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 12:44 PM, Tony Harris <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >> Why not? This is your language living in your world with your culture.
> >> If you have something like the local equivalent of the Académie
> Française
> >> or the Hebrew Language Academy, but instead of being a reactive and
> >> advisory group it's more of a legislative body that writes language law
> >> that is rigidly enforced by a very zealous, tradition-oriented
> enforcement
> >> agency in a culture that thinks that's normal, then go for it.
> >>
> >> And yes, I imagine having to go to a concentration camp for
> "re-education"
> >> if you're caught using slang or neologisms would probably drastically
> cut
> >> down on both. And produce a linguistic rebel underground that would
> also
> >> be a wonderful source for story material!
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On 02/06/2012 01:34 PM, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews wrote:
> >>
> >>> What if Yardish changes, but you have get change legalized, as
> suggested?
> >>> Don't you have to go through some kind of process through getting words
> >>> in
> >>> the dictionary? So that could be why the language doesn't rapidly
> change?
> >>> Nicole Andrews
> >>>
> >>> Pen name Mellissa Green
> >>> Budding novelist
> >>> Tweet me
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> @greenNovelist
> >>>
> >>
> >
> >
> > --
> > Second Person, a chapbook of poetry by Patrick Dunn, is now available for
> > order from Finishing Line
> > Press<
> http://www.finishinglinepress.com/NewReleasesandForthcomingTitles.htm>
> > and
> > Amazon<
> http://www.amazon.com/Second-Person-Patrick-Dunn/dp/1599249065/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1324342341&sr=8-2
> >.
> >
>
Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________
3g. Re: Lnguages that Don't Change
Posted by: "Sam Stutter" [email protected]
Date: Mon Feb 6, 2012 2:05 pm ((PST))
A little friendly writing competition? :)
Sam Stutter
[email protected]
"No e na il cu barri"
On 6 Feb 2012, at 21:27, Brian Woodward wrote:
> I'm not much of a writer myself but I'd love to see someone's rendition of
> it. It sounds like it would make an awesome story.
>
> On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 3:06 PM, Adam Walker <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Yeah. Me too.
>>
>> On 2/6/12, Patrick Dunn <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> What a cool idea that is. I kind of want to write it. :)
>>>
>>> --Patrick
>>>
>>> On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 12:44 PM, Tony Harris <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Why not? This is your language living in your world with your culture.
>>>> If you have something like the local equivalent of the Académie
>> Française
>>>> or the Hebrew Language Academy, but instead of being a reactive and
>>>> advisory group it's more of a legislative body that writes language law
>>>> that is rigidly enforced by a very zealous, tradition-oriented
>> enforcement
>>>> agency in a culture that thinks that's normal, then go for it.
>>>>
>>>> And yes, I imagine having to go to a concentration camp for
>> "re-education"
>>>> if you're caught using slang or neologisms would probably drastically
>> cut
>>>> down on both. And produce a linguistic rebel underground that would
>> also
>>>> be a wonderful source for story material!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 02/06/2012 01:34 PM, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> What if Yardish changes, but you have get change legalized, as
>> suggested?
>>>>> Don't you have to go through some kind of process through getting words
>>>>> in
>>>>> the dictionary? So that could be why the language doesn't rapidly
>> change?
>>>>> Nicole Andrews
>>>>>
>>>>> Pen name Mellissa Green
>>>>> Budding novelist
>>>>> Tweet me
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> @greenNovelist
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Second Person, a chapbook of poetry by Patrick Dunn, is now available for
>>> order from Finishing Line
>>> Press<
>> http://www.finishinglinepress.com/NewReleasesandForthcomingTitles.htm>
>>> and
>>> Amazon<
>> http://www.amazon.com/Second-Person-Patrick-Dunn/dp/1599249065/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1324342341&sr=8-2
>>> .
>>>
>>
Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________
3h. Re: Lnguages that Don't Change
Posted by: "Adam Walker" [email protected]
Date: Mon Feb 6, 2012 3:06 pm ((PST))
I probably won't be sun-charged enough for that until March, be another
list I'm on does have writing challenges periodically. Many of them are
quite fun. But my creativity died with the waning sun back at the end of
November and has yet to revive sufficiently. I have some issues every
winter, but this year has been especially bad. Thanks be to God that I
don't live any farther north. Or I'd have further problems.
Adam
On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 4:05 PM, Sam Stutter <[email protected]> wrote:
> A little friendly writing competition? :)
>
> Sam Stutter
> [email protected]
> "No e na il cu barri"
>
>
> On 6 Feb 2012, at 21:27, Brian Woodward wrote:
>
> > I'm not much of a writer myself but I'd love to see someone's rendition
> of
> > it. It sounds like it would make an awesome story.
> >
> > On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 3:06 PM, Adam Walker <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >> Yeah. Me too.
> >>
> >> On 2/6/12, Patrick Dunn <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>> What a cool idea that is. I kind of want to write it. :)
> >>>
> >>> --Patrick
> >>>
> >>> On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 12:44 PM, Tony Harris <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Why not? This is your language living in your world with your
> culture.
> >>>> If you have something like the local equivalent of the Académie
> >> Française
> >>>> or the Hebrew Language Academy, but instead of being a reactive and
> >>>> advisory group it's more of a legislative body that writes language
> law
> >>>> that is rigidly enforced by a very zealous, tradition-oriented
> >> enforcement
> >>>> agency in a culture that thinks that's normal, then go for it.
> >>>>
> >>>> And yes, I imagine having to go to a concentration camp for
> >> "re-education"
> >>>> if you're caught using slang or neologisms would probably drastically
> >> cut
> >>>> down on both. And produce a linguistic rebel underground that would
> >> also
> >>>> be a wonderful source for story material!
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On 02/06/2012 01:34 PM, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> What if Yardish changes, but you have get change legalized, as
> >> suggested?
> >>>>> Don't you have to go through some kind of process through getting
> words
> >>>>> in
> >>>>> the dictionary? So that could be why the language doesn't rapidly
> >> change?
> >>>>> Nicole Andrews
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Pen name Mellissa Green
> >>>>> Budding novelist
> >>>>> Tweet me
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> @greenNovelist
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> Second Person, a chapbook of poetry by Patrick Dunn, is now available
> for
> >>> order from Finishing Line
> >>> Press<
> >> http://www.finishinglinepress.com/NewReleasesandForthcomingTitles.htm>
> >>> and
> >>> Amazon<
> >>
> http://www.amazon.com/Second-Person-Patrick-Dunn/dp/1599249065/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1324342341&sr=8-2
> >>> .
> >>>
> >>
>
Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
4a. Re: Madeline Palmer's Draconic Language (Fiat Lingua)
Posted by: "Jörg Rhiemeier" [email protected]
Date: Mon Feb 6, 2012 11:36 am ((PST))
Hallo conlangers!
I meanwhile had the leisure to read the whole text, and I can
only confirm that it is AWESOME. Here we have a species that
is in a non-trivial way *not human* and elaborated at that.
I look forward to see what the actual language is like!
Interestingly, I found that the dragons' naming conventions are
quite similar to the Old Albic ones in that each individual
receives a name from their parents and later chooses one by
himself. Also, the concept of change and variation giving
beauty to the world and unmoving things being less perfect than
moving things has a parallel in the worldview of the Elbi.
Of course, in most other respects, there is virtually nothing
in common between Elves and dragons!
If there really were such longevitous beings in our world, they
would be valuable for human historical linguistics as they could
provide a window on lost ancient languages which they alone
still remember. I myself had the idea of a cabal of vampires
(like those in the _Vampire: The Masquerade_ RPG) still using
the common ancestor of Indo-European and Hesperic (my conlang
family to which Old Albic belongs) as a ritual languages among
themselves; but I haven't so far followed it through, mainly
because vampires do not really attract me very much. Also,
there is no way of reconstructing such a language (essentially,
internal reconstruction starting from Proto-Indo-European) in
so much detail that one could actually write texts in it.
--
... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
http://www.joerg-rhiemeier.de/Conlang/index.html
"Bêsel asa Êm, a Êm atha cvanthal a cvanth atha Êmel." - SiM 1:1
Messages in this topic (12)
________________________________________________________________________
4b. Re: Madeline Palmer's Draconic Language (Fiat Lingua)
Posted by: "Padraic Brown" [email protected]
Date: Mon Feb 6, 2012 8:27 pm ((PST))
--- On Mon, 2/6/12, Jörg Rhiemeier <[email protected]> wrote:
> If there really were such longevitous beings in our world,
> they
> would be valuable for human historical linguistics as they
> could
> provide a window on lost ancient languages which they alone
> still remember. I myself had the idea of a cabal of
> vampires
> (like those in the _Vampire: The Masquerade_ RPG) still
> using
> the common ancestor of Indo-European and Hesperic (my
> conlang
> family to which Old Albic belongs) as a ritual languages
> among
> themselves; but I haven't so far followed it through,
> mainly
> because vampires do not really attract me very much.
Doesn't have to be vampires, you know. Could be anything else that is
similarly long lived. In the World, the Daine are long lived, but aren't
terribly interested in human historical linguistics. The Teor are much
longer lived and do have an interest in language. They probably have
books recording the tales told by the ancestors of the Punt (who themselves
are the ancestors of the Aryans). Probably on par with *here*'s Nostratic
or thereabouts.
And then there are the Wise, an amorphous body of quite possibly immortal
individuals who Observe and Record the doings in the World. If you can
locate the Wikang River and find a way across, make your way through the
forest perilous to the fabled million year old city of Ixcq. The Library
there is said to have in its collection, somewhere down in the deepest
levels of the dungeons, a veritable world of golden radiance known as the
Inmost Archive -- mile high stacks of books on simply every topic and
every subject possible. The biographies of everything and everyone that
has ever, or will ever, live. Grammars of every language ever spoken,
grammars of every language that could never be spoken. Histories of every
tribe and nation of Gea, every world and every star empire that has risen
or fallen in the last forty-odd billion years.
I'm *sure* that somewhere in all that we could find a grammar and reader
of PIE! Hesperic as well. ;))
Padraic
> Also,
> there is no way of reconstructing such a language
> (essentially,
> internal reconstruction starting from Proto-Indo-European)
> in
> so much detail that one could actually write texts in it.
>
> --
> ... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
> http://www.joerg-rhiemeier.de/Conlang/index.html
> "Bêsel asa Êm, a Êm atha cvanthal a cvanth atha Êmel." -
> SiM 1:1
>
Messages in this topic (12)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
5a. Re: Phonotactics Help
Posted by: "Brian Woodward" [email protected]
Date: Mon Feb 6, 2012 1:17 pm ((PST))
Thank you all for the examples you've provided. I haven't had a chance to
look at them all extensively yet but they appear to be exactly what I was
looking for. Thanks for all your inputs.
Brian
On Mon, Jan 30, 2012 at 11:26 AM, taliesin the storyteller <
[email protected]> wrote:
> * taliesin the storyteller said on 2012-01-30 09:16:47 +0100
> > It's easy to find stuff for English but so far, outside of English, I've
> > only found analyses for Georgian and German. Taruven phonotactics is
> > simpler than both, so they're not that helpful.
>
> What I've started doing is looking at the list of languages in WALS that
> have a "medium" complex syllable structure and then google on from
> there. Maybe I should make a page on Frathwiki with a list...
>
> Finnish had a not too bad description on English Wikipedia.
>
>
> t.
>
Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
6. Re: Languages that Don't Change
Posted by: "Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews" [email protected]
Date: Mon Feb 6, 2012 2:32 pm ((PST))
Sounds like I have competition. It would be cool to see diferent versions.
Nicole Andrews
Pen name Mellissa Green
Budding novelist
Tweet me
@greenNovelist
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Woodward" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, February 06, 2012 4:27 PM
Subject: Re: Lnguages that Don't Change
I'm not much of a writer myself but I'd love to see someone's rendition of
it. It sounds like it would make an awesome story.
On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 3:06 PM, Adam Walker <[email protected]> wrote:
> Yeah. Me too.
>
> On 2/6/12, Patrick Dunn <[email protected]> wrote:
> > What a cool idea that is. I kind of want to write it. :)
> >
> > --Patrick
> >
> > On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 12:44 PM, Tony Harris <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >> Why not? This is your language living in your world with your culture.
> >> If you have something like the local equivalent of the Académie
> Française
> >> or the Hebrew Language Academy, but instead of being a reactive and
> >> advisory group it's more of a legislative body that writes language law
> >> that is rigidly enforced by a very zealous, tradition-oriented
> enforcement
> >> agency in a culture that thinks that's normal, then go for it.
> >>
> >> And yes, I imagine having to go to a concentration camp for
> "re-education"
> >> if you're caught using slang or neologisms would probably drastically
> cut
> >> down on both. And produce a linguistic rebel underground that would
> also
> >> be a wonderful source for story material!
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On 02/06/2012 01:34 PM, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews wrote:
> >>
> >>> What if Yardish changes, but you have get change legalized, as
> suggested?
> >>> Don't you have to go through some kind of process through getting
> >>> words
> >>> in
> >>> the dictionary? So that could be why the language doesn't rapidly
> change?
> >>> Nicole Andrews
> >>>
> >>> Pen name Mellissa Green
> >>> Budding novelist
> >>> Tweet me
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> @greenNovelist
> >>>
> >>
> >
> >
> > --
> > Second Person, a chapbook of poetry by Patrick Dunn, is now available
> > for
> > order from Finishing Line
> > Press<
> http://www.finishinglinepress.com/NewReleasesandForthcomingTitles.htm>
> > and
> > Amazon<
> http://www.amazon.com/Second-Person-Patrick-Dunn/dp/1599249065/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1324342341&sr=8-2
> >.
> >
>
Messages in this topic (1)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
7. NATLANG: Amharic, and Ethiopian local languages
Posted by: "Paul Bennett" [email protected]
Date: Tue Feb 7, 2012 12:04 am ((PST))
This is off topic, I suppose, but if anyone knows of a good, Pimsleur-like
audio course for Amharic, I'd appreciate a pointer to where it can be
purchased or obtained.
Also, any information whatsoever about the languages of the Oro River
region would be highly useful.
I may end up undertaking some charity work in that region this fall, and I
want to be able to at least try to fend for myself, linguistically. I've
pretty much got lessons that include "Stop, or I'll shoot" and "Don't
shoot" (et sim), but they appear to be very rudimentary phrasebook-style
audio clips compared to a Pimsleur-like course where one learns real
communication skills.
Thanks,
--
Paul
Messages in this topic (1)
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