There are 11 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1. Re: Name That Glyph | Round Eight « Pseudoglyphs
From: John Erickson
2a. Re: What is this called?
From: Brian Woodward
2b. Re: What is this called?
From: Michael Everson
2c. Re: What is this called?
From: Padraic Brown
2d. Re: What is this called?
From: Matthew Boutilier
2e. Re: What is this called?
From: Padraic Brown
2f. Re: What is this called?
From: Eric Christopherson
3a. Re: The Yardish Lexicon
From: Brian Woodward
3b. Re: The Yardish Lexicon
From: Patrick Dunn
4. New Fiat Lingua: Interview with Paul Frommer
From: David Peterson
5a. Re: Nonhuman features: birdspeak
From: Padraic Brown
Messages
________________________________________________________________________
1. Re: Name That Glyph | Round Eight « Pseudoglyphs
Posted by: "John Erickson" [email protected]
Date: Thu Mar 1, 2012 8:20 am ((PST))
A4 hair
B3 hermit crab
C1 field, farm
C3 bundle
D3 broom
H2 alarm clock
I3 baby
Messages in this topic (1)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
2a. Re: What is this called?
Posted by: "Brian Woodward" [email protected]
Date: Thu Mar 1, 2012 12:32 pm ((PST))
I was refering to the ablaut but come to think of it I don't really understand
strong/weak verbs either.
Sent from my iPhone
On Mar 1, 2012, at 6:16, Michael Everson <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 29 Feb 2012, at 22:13, Brian Woodward wrote:
>
>> What is the term for an internal change in a word for a different
>> inflection? For example: draw/drew versus the regular talk/talked.
>
> Ablaut? Or do you mean Strong verbs v. weak verbs?
>
> Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
Messages in this topic (15)
________________________________________________________________________
2b. Re: What is this called?
Posted by: "Michael Everson" [email protected]
Date: Thu Mar 1, 2012 12:50 pm ((PST))
On 1 Mar 2012, at 20:32, Brian Woodward wrote:
> I was refering to the ablaut but come to think of it I don't really
> understand strong/weak verbs either.
Strong verbs are the ones with ablaut. Weak verbs are the ones with -ed in the
preterite.
Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
Messages in this topic (15)
________________________________________________________________________
2c. Re: What is this called?
Posted by: "Padraic Brown" [email protected]
Date: Thu Mar 1, 2012 2:13 pm ((PST))
--- On Thu, 3/1/12, Michael Everson <[email protected]> wrote:
> > I was refering to the ablaut but come to think of it I
> > don't really understand strong/weak verbs either.
>
> Strong verbs are the ones with ablaut. Weak verbs are the
> ones with -ed in the preterite.
Except for all the weak verbs that have ablaut as well...
The [i] ~ [E] variation in breed, sleep, weep, bereave, read, etc.
http://www.jstor.org/stable/4171654
Padraic
> Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
Messages in this topic (15)
________________________________________________________________________
2d. Re: What is this called?
Posted by: "Matthew Boutilier" [email protected]
Date: Thu Mar 1, 2012 2:20 pm ((PST))
>
> > Strong verbs are the ones with ablaut. Weak verbs are the
> > ones with -ed in the preterite.
>
> Except for all the weak verbs that have ablaut as well...
>
well, yes and no.
if by "ablaut" you mean simply "vowel alternation," then sure. but then,
man/men (textbook case of umlaut) is also a type of ablaut, since that's a
type of vowel alternation.
if by "ablaut" you mean "vowel change stemming from /e/~/o/~Ø alternation
in proto-indo-european," then certainly not, since the weep/wept,
sleep/slept, read(ri:d)/read(rEd) alternations all come from vowel
shortening before consonant clusters, and no original alternations in PIE.
the linguistics community generally only uses "ablaut" to refer to the
latter case, i.e. what we would call strong verbs. this is why the term
"ablaut" rarely gets thrown around outside of indo-european linguistics.
matt
On Thu, Mar 1, 2012 at 4:12 PM, Padraic Brown <[email protected]> wrote:
> --- On Thu, 3/1/12, Michael Everson <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > I was refering to the ablaut but come to think of it I
> > > don't really understand strong/weak verbs either.
> >
> > Strong verbs are the ones with ablaut. Weak verbs are the
> > ones with -ed in the preterite.
>
> Except for all the weak verbs that have ablaut as well...
>
> The [i] ~ [E] variation in breed, sleep, weep, bereave, read, etc.
>
> http://www.jstor.org/stable/4171654
>
> Padraic
>
> > Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
>
Messages in this topic (15)
________________________________________________________________________
2e. Re: What is this called?
Posted by: "Padraic Brown" [email protected]
Date: Thu Mar 1, 2012 3:30 pm ((PST))
--- On Thu, 3/1/12, Matthew Boutilier <[email protected]> wrote:
> From: Matthew Boutilier <[email protected]>
> Subject: Re: [CONLANG] What is this called?
> To: [email protected]
> Date: Thursday, March 1, 2012, 5:20 PM
> >
> > > Strong verbs are the ones with ablaut. Weak verbs
> are the
> > > ones with -ed in the preterite.
> >
> > Except for all the weak verbs that have ablaut as
> well...
> >
>
> well, yes and no.
>
> if by "ablaut" you mean simply "vowel alternation," then
> sure. but then,
> man/men (textbook case of umlaut) is also a type of ablaut,
> since that's a type of vowel alternation.
I didn't think this was -- I think this is a pretty clear case of i-umlaut
where breed/bred, bereave/bereft are not.
> if by "ablaut" you mean "vowel change stemming from
> /e/~/o/~Ø alternation
> in proto-indo-european," then certainly not, since the
> weep/wept,
> sleep/slept, read(ri:d)/read(rEd) alternations all come from
> vowel
> shortening before consonant clusters, and no original
> alternations in PIE.
Indeed not. The article makes this point I think far better than I can!
Padraic
> the linguistics community generally only uses "ablaut" to
> refer to the
> latter case, i.e. what we would call strong verbs.
> this is why the term
> "ablaut" rarely gets thrown around outside of indo-european
> linguistics.
>
> matt
>
> On Thu, Mar 1, 2012 at 4:12 PM, Padraic Brown <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> > --- On Thu, 3/1/12, Michael Everson <[email protected]>
> wrote:
> >
> > > > I was refering to the ablaut but come to
> think of it I
> > > > don't really understand strong/weak verbs
> either.
> > >
> > > Strong verbs are the ones with ablaut. Weak verbs
> are the
> > > ones with -ed in the preterite.
> >
> > Except for all the weak verbs that have ablaut as
> well...
> >
> > The [i] ~ [E] variation in breed, sleep, weep, bereave,
> read, etc.
> >
> > http://www.jstor.org/stable/4171654
> >
> > Padraic
> >
> > > Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
> >
>
Messages in this topic (15)
________________________________________________________________________
2f. Re: What is this called?
Posted by: "Eric Christopherson" [email protected]
Date: Thu Mar 1, 2012 9:15 pm ((PST))
On Feb 29, 2012, at 4:13 PM, Brian Woodward wrote:
> What is the term for an internal change in a word for a different inflection?
> For example: draw/drew versus the regular talk/talked.
>
> I'll try to clarify if need be. Just let me know.
Some other terms I've seen in the course of my reading are "radical processes"
(seen in Montler's description of Saanich) and "nonconcatenative morphology"
(often, though IANM not exclusively) used for Semitic-style root and pattern
morphology.
Messages in this topic (15)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
3a. Re: The Yardish Lexicon
Posted by: "Brian Woodward" [email protected]
Date: Thu Mar 1, 2012 12:38 pm ((PST))
42 would certainly give Yardish "meaning".
Sent from my iPhone
On Mar 1, 2012, at 8:22, Adam Walker <[email protected]> wrote:
> 42.
>
> Adam
>
> On Wed, Feb 29, 2012 at 10:50 PM, Billy JB <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Well, there is of course, no set limit on how few/how many words you should
>> add to the lexicon. Perhaps, words that concern the immediate surroundings
>> of the conculture, their interpersonal relationships, their food, some
>> pronouns, verbs and so on might come in handy. Of course, just a small list
>> of words used in the novel(if, you're writing one) might be appropriate as
>> an appendix to the work.
>>
>> I'd say it's up to you honestly.
>>
>> On Thu, Mar 1, 2012 at 5:38 AM, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews <
>> [email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> How many words should I put in the lexicon? I nee to complete the numbers
>>> and cases section, sentence translation and verb conjugation sections,
>> and
>>> still plan to add more words In other words, should I turn into a book
>> and
>>> make it a giveaway?
>>> Nicole Andrews
>>>
>>> Pen name Mellissa Green
>>> Budding novelist
>>> Tweet me
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> @greenNovelist
>>>
>>
Messages in this topic (10)
________________________________________________________________________
3b. Re: The Yardish Lexicon
Posted by: "Patrick Dunn" [email protected]
Date: Thu Mar 1, 2012 12:49 pm ((PST))
I am totally taking that as a challenge. A language with only 42 lexical
morphemes.
I love oligilangs.
oligolangs?
--Patrick
On Thu, Mar 1, 2012 at 2:37 PM, Brian Woodward <[email protected]> wrote:
> 42 would certainly give Yardish "meaning".
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Mar 1, 2012, at 8:22, Adam Walker <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > 42.
> >
> > Adam
> >
> > On Wed, Feb 29, 2012 at 10:50 PM, Billy JB <[email protected]>
> wrote:
> >
> >> Well, there is of course, no set limit on how few/how many words you
> should
> >> add to the lexicon. Perhaps, words that concern the immediate
> surroundings
> >> of the conculture, their interpersonal relationships, their food, some
> >> pronouns, verbs and so on might come in handy. Of course, just a small
> list
> >> of words used in the novel(if, you're writing one) might be appropriate
> as
> >> an appendix to the work.
> >>
> >> I'd say it's up to you honestly.
> >>
> >> On Thu, Mar 1, 2012 at 5:38 AM, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews <
> >> [email protected]> wrote:
> >>
> >>> How many words should I put in the lexicon? I nee to complete the
> numbers
> >>> and cases section, sentence translation and verb conjugation sections,
> >> and
> >>> still plan to add more words In other words, should I turn into a book
> >> and
> >>> make it a giveaway?
> >>> Nicole Andrews
> >>>
> >>> Pen name Mellissa Green
> >>> Budding novelist
> >>> Tweet me
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> @greenNovelist
> >>>
> >>
>
--
Second Person, a chapbook of poetry by Patrick Dunn, is now available for
order from Finishing Line
Press<http://www.finishinglinepress.com/NewReleasesandForthcomingTitles.htm>
and
Amazon<http://www.amazon.com/Second-Person-Patrick-Dunn/dp/1599249065/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1324342341&sr=8-2>.
Messages in this topic (10)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
4. New Fiat Lingua: Interview with Paul Frommer
Posted by: "David Peterson" [email protected]
Date: Thu Mar 1, 2012 2:27 pm ((PST))
Fredrik Ekman did an e-mail interview with Paul Frommer about his work on
Barsoomian for the upcoming John Carter. We actually got permission from Disney
to publish this article before the movie came out (which is pretty cool). If
you want to give it a read, you can do so here:
http://fiatlingua.org/2012/03/
David Peterson
LCS President
[email protected]
www.conlang.org
Messages in this topic (1)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
5a. Re: Nonhuman features: birdspeak
Posted by: "Padraic Brown" [email protected]
Date: Thu Mar 1, 2012 3:27 pm ((PST))
--- On Wed, 2/29/12, Nikolay Ivankov <[email protected]> wrote:
> Well, several years ago I played with an idea of a humanoid
> race
> using radio waves for communication. Not particularly new
> thing, but still.
> To be honest, I've became interested in birds because of a
> conculture of
> humans that - by an idea of my co-autor - were supposed to
> sing their language.
Ah. Opera!
> To make the things even worse, I proposed to make many vowels,
> many tones and only 2 real consonants: voiced glottal stop
> and voiced
> bilabial click. So, in fact, the tongue was used only to
> make high/low
> vocals, which is almost nothing.
Well, makes remembering all the consonants easy-peasy!
> Thus, if their word for speech had
> something to with the organs, then it would be cognate
> rather with "throat"
> or "lips" than with "tongue".
Sure, thought we'd just call it a language anyway.
> However, an analogy with birds would
> inevitably come to mind if the language is designed this
> way, therefore my question.
>
>
> > If your bird-people communicate in a roughly analagous
> way to us, whether
> > or not they use or even have tongues, they're using
> language. I have some
> > bird-people in the World, but I know nothing at all
> about how they talk
> > or what their languages are like. I suspect it's quite
> different than the
> > other speaking races, who are mostly hominids of some
> sort. How much effort
> > is made in understanding each other is also an open
> question -- perhaps
> > they decided long ago that communication just wasn't
> possible and that if
> > complete annihilation of the blundering oafs on the
> other side isn't
> > practical, then studied avoidance might be best...
> >
>
> In the human-populated conworld in which the culture I've
> been talking
> about lives the races went so far from each other, that some
> of them are
> just unable to hear what the others say - just like chimps
> do not really
> hear the human speech, because they ears are tuned for
> higher frequencies.
> So they had to invent an interlingua that is entirely
> written. Well, an
> idea of an entirely written language came first, of course.
Now, that's interesting! Two peoples that not only have to try and figure
out each other's language, but can barely hear each other!
> By the way, can I read something of your fiction?
Sure! I don't have much online. A little bit is here:
http://www.frathwiki.com/The_World
There's some snippets of a couple languages as well as some examples of
music from the World, which I think actually turned out pretty well. I
should put some images as well...
A couple short stories set in the World are in a short story collection I
wrote, Theatre of the Mind (Chris Brown), available at Amazon or Lulu.
Otherwise, quite a lot of articles and snippets can be found here in the
archives of Conlang or else Conculture.
> > Can always use their own word for that colour.
>
> Right, that's what is done sometimes. [...]
> Still, introducing a new notion may be quite a task for the
> reader - one
> may end up with a text, that is becoming more and more
> unintelligible.
This is certainly a risk -- but it is a risk to bring before an audience
ány work of fiction where the world is not Earth and the people are not
humans. This is where the writer has to make choices about how to present
an alien world and alien peoples. How much is too much, sort of thing.
> Though, my problem was that mine were unintelligible from
> the very beginning.
A harder task for you to make sense for the rest of us -- but I think quite
often more rewarding for the intrepid reader!
> At least, the author have an ark of refuge for their ideas:
> appendices. I
> was really quite surprised to learn that Frodo and Bilbo
> were in fact Froda
> and Bilba, and the final -a was replaced by -o only not to
> make a gender confusion.
I wasn't aware of that! Though it makes sense -- -a is the typical
MASCULINE ending in Germanic languages, derived from PIE -o; while -a
is the typical Latin/Romance FEMININE ending. We've (in English) quite
forgotten our -a stem masculines, while names or things in -a are almost
universally interpreted as feminine based on our contact with Italian
and Spanish.
> In the internet era the authors are not even dependent on the
> publishers: if a publisher is to greedy to waste paper on a
> seemingly
> unimportant crap, the author can just place the appendix on
> a personal
> website and feel her or his duty to the conworld fulfilled.
Or one can simply go over the publisher's head by self-publishing. This
way the author has and keeps total control over the content.
> I find it really encouraging.
It is indeed. Even though the down side is an almost frightening array
of self published pseudo-academic books of questionable content...
> > Well, in the heat of battle, what's important is
> communicating things like
> > "you lot run towards that lot and kill as many of the
> bastards as you can"
> > or "run away!" Niceties of grammatical mood or person
> or fiddly adjectives
> > would only get in the way. A distinct bugle or fife
> tune that has a
> > definite meaning is indeed part of the language.
> >
>
> Well, you do not need a train to get to the kitchen. Yet,
> you'd consider the train if the kitchen you need is in another city.
Or you can simply avail yourself of the dining car!
> Tamtams in Africa
> were the most efficient way to communicate in the jungle -
> so the
> "language" became complex enough to inform everyone about
> the death of George IV.
Indeed! A sort of sonic telegraph.
> Were drums and bulge the only way to transfer information in a
> complex society, I think we could have had a blare-tabored
> love poetry within decades, centuries at most.
Perhaps sooner! The history of trumpets and drums, especially kettle drums,
in the modern orchestra is intimately connected with the bugles and
drums of the army and the noble households of Europe. It didn't take long
to go from a purely martial idiom to instruments quite capable of tender
melodic playing.
> > > And I'm afraid this gives me an idea...
> >
> > Oh dearie me!
> >
> > Ideas can be dangerous things...you be careful there! :)
>
> No panic! I've already forgotten it ^)
Well, I hope you can find it again! I was curious to find out what it was!
Padraic
> Kolya
Messages in this topic (10)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/conlang/
<*> Your email settings:
Digest Email | Traditional
<*> To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/conlang/join
(Yahoo! ID required)
<*> To change settings via email:
[email protected]
[email protected]
<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]
<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
------------------------------------------------------------------------
