There are 14 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. Re: A New Lang is Born
From: Padraic Brown
1b. Re: A New Lang is Born
From: Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
1c. Re: A New Lang is Born
From: Virginia Keys
1d. Re: A New Lang is Born
From: Michael Everson
1e. Re: A New Lang is Born
From: Eugene Oh
1f. Re: A New Lang is Born
From: Michael Everson
1g. Re: A New Lang is Born
From: Virginia Keys
2a. Re: Nominals in Verb-heavy Languages
From: Logan Kearsley
3a. Re: NATLANG: Con-scripting a Hamer writing system
From: Paul Bennett
3b. Re: NATLANG: Con-scripting a Hamer writing system
From: Michael Everson
3c. Re: NATLANG: Con-scripting a Hamer writing system
From: Paul Bennett
4a. Re: OT Syllable structure, German
From: Armin Buch
5a. Re: OT Syllable structure, German
From: Carsten Becker
5b. Re: OT Syllable structure, German
From: Carsten Becker
Messages
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1a. Re: A New Lang is Born
Posted by: "Padraic Brown" [email protected]
Date: Sat Mar 3, 2012 7:56 pm ((PST))
--- On Sat, 3/3/12, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews <[email protected]>
wrote:
> Thanks for keeping me in the loop.
No worries!
I don't know how profound your (physical) blindness is, but I think we
(conlangers) often lose sight of how very visual our art is. You would
think it's primarily aural -- it's about language, after all and what is
language but a means of spoken communication! And of course, writing
systems are almost exclusively for the sighted. But we rarely speak our
languages and rarely record ourselves reading texts. And few writing
systems are appropriate for reading by any means except the eyes. I know
some have recorded their languages -- I still treasure Sally Cave's
rendition of Teonaht poetry. And of course, you can hear Tolkien reciting
Namarie online. Loveliness embodied! (He has a pretty good singing voice
as well!)
But for most of us, our conlangs are composed as visual artifacts, are
delivered (via the web) as visual artifacts and are discussed, enjoyed
and shared here as visual artifacts.
Padraic
> Nicole Thompson-Andrews
>
> Pen name Mellissa Green
> Budding novelist and Haiku and acrostic writer
>
>
>
>
>
> Tweet me
>
>
>
> @greenNovelist
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Padraic Brown" <[email protected]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Saturday, March 03, 2012 10:39 PM
> Subject: Re: A New Lang is Born
>
>
> > --- On Sat, 3/3/12, Virginia Keys <[email protected]>
> wrote:
> >
> >> Ok, Pics are up here:
> >> http://pics.conlang.org./v/Shateyo_2dws/
> >
> > Wow! I like it a lot!
> > For Nicole: it's like ivy growing up a wall!
> >
> > Padraic
>
Messages in this topic (14)
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1b. Re: A New Lang is Born
Posted by: "Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews" [email protected]
Date: Sat Mar 3, 2012 8:14 pm ((PST))
Yes, I'm stuck in a sighted world, not that I'm the only blind, but we have
to re-invent the wheel. I was given too much oxygen so lost my sight at
about three months. I still plan to get my hands on my medical records, as I
researched my condition when I was at an Independ living center some years
back. Sadly, I've been kicked out out of that center twice and the most
recent one I was at. I guess I just made Conlang history. When I was
younger, I use to put words in fractions, I don't know if that counts as a
Conlang. Could that work as a way to teach Yemoran children math?
Nicole Thompson-Andrews
Pen name Mellissa Green
Budding novelist and Haiku and acrostic writer
Tweet me
@greenNovelist
----- Original Message -----
From: "Padraic Brown" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, March 03, 2012 10:56 PM
Subject: Re: A New Lang is Born
> --- On Sat, 3/3/12, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Thanks for keeping me in the loop.
>
> No worries!
>
> I don't know how profound your (physical) blindness is, but I think we
> (conlangers) often lose sight of how very visual our art is. You would
> think it's primarily aural -- it's about language, after all and what is
> language but a means of spoken communication! And of course, writing
> systems are almost exclusively for the sighted. But we rarely speak our
> languages and rarely record ourselves reading texts. And few writing
> systems are appropriate for reading by any means except the eyes. I know
> some have recorded their languages -- I still treasure Sally Cave's
> rendition of Teonaht poetry. And of course, you can hear Tolkien reciting
> Namarie online. Loveliness embodied! (He has a pretty good singing voice
> as well!)
>
> But for most of us, our conlangs are composed as visual artifacts, are
> delivered (via the web) as visual artifacts and are discussed, enjoyed
> and shared here as visual artifacts.
>
> Padraic
>
>> Nicole Thompson-Andrews
>>
>> Pen name Mellissa Green
>> Budding novelist and Haiku and acrostic writer
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Tweet me
>>
>>
>>
>> @greenNovelist
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Padraic Brown" <[email protected]>
>> To: <[email protected]>
>> Sent: Saturday, March 03, 2012 10:39 PM
>> Subject: Re: A New Lang is Born
>>
>>
>> > --- On Sat, 3/3/12, Virginia Keys <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> >> Ok, Pics are up here:
>> >> http://pics.conlang.org./v/Shateyo_2dws/
>> >
>> > Wow! I like it a lot!
>> > For Nicole: it's like ivy growing up a wall!
>> >
>> > Padraic
>>
Messages in this topic (14)
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1c. Re: A New Lang is Born
Posted by: "Virginia Keys" [email protected]
Date: Sat Mar 3, 2012 8:55 pm ((PST))
Thanks, and I hope so but I can't really find out until I find mine again. :)
On Sat, 3 Mar 2012 21:45:19 -0600, Patrick Dunn <[email protected]> wrote:
>Gorgeousity and yum yum yum. It looks like you could write it very
>effectively and efficiently with a calligraphy pen.
Messages in this topic (14)
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1d. Re: A New Lang is Born
Posted by: "Michael Everson" [email protected]
Date: Sun Mar 4, 2012 2:50 am ((PST))
On 4 Mar 2012, at 03:45, Patrick Dunn wrote:
> Gorgeousity and yum yum yum. It looks like you could write it very
> effectively and efficiently with a calligraphy pen.
But how legible would it be writing notes with a ballpoint or pencil? That is
also a consideration in writing system design.
Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
Messages in this topic (14)
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1e. Re: A New Lang is Born
Posted by: "Eugene Oh" [email protected]
Date: Sun Mar 4, 2012 4:29 am ((PST))
Not if the culture it's designed for writes with a broad blade, or carves (eg
Latin serif script)
Eugene
Sent from my iPhone
On 4 Mar 2012, at 10:49, Michael Everson <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 4 Mar 2012, at 03:45, Patrick Dunn wrote:
>
>> Gorgeousity and yum yum yum. It looks like you could write it very
>> effectively and efficiently with a calligraphy pen.
>
> But how legible would it be writing notes with a ballpoint or pencil? That is
> also a consideration in writing system design.
>
> Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
Messages in this topic (14)
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1f. Re: A New Lang is Born
Posted by: "Michael Everson" [email protected]
Date: Sun Mar 4, 2012 4:46 am ((PST))
On 4 Mar 2012, at 12:29, Eugene Oh wrote:
> Not if the culture it's designed for writes with a broad blade, or carves (eg
> Latin serif script)
I should think that the true test of a robust writing system is its ability to
be written in a number of media, from sand to pencils.
Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
Messages in this topic (14)
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1g. Re: A New Lang is Born
Posted by: "Virginia Keys" [email protected]
Date: Sun Mar 4, 2012 5:51 am ((PST))
I think that something like a calligraphy pen would be ideal for this
writing system, but I actually wrote these examples using a fine point pen.
It is certainly less convenient, especially when filling in the strokes to
make them more easily identifiable, but it is possible. I have thought about
reducing the script for faster use with a finer point, but each time I try I
don't like the results.
Messages in this topic (14)
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2a. Re: Nominals in Verb-heavy Languages
Posted by: "Logan Kearsley" [email protected]
Date: Sat Mar 3, 2012 8:24 pm ((PST))
On 28 February 2012 12:39, Logan Kearsley <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 27 February 2012 13:51, Alex Fink <[email protected]> wrote:
[..]
>> My impression is that, in the verb-prominent native languages of North
>> America, one of the common strategies for naming particular objects is just
>> nominalizing a whole verb phrase, with whatever necessary modifiers in it.
>> Along the lines of "ink" = 'writing-tools are filled with it'.
>
> Indeed it is; unfortunately, I can't find a good dictionary with
> morphological information in it to see how those nominalizations are
> formed.
Well, I still haven't found a good dictionary, but I have learned a
lot more about Salishan and how those languages do their
nominalizations, and if I can figure out the right sort of lexical
bases for it, I may end up using this strategy from time to time.
> On 27 February 2012 14:47, Jeffrey Daniel Rollin-Jones
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>> You could just have a verb that means "to rock" or "to be a rock", and then
>> syntax or morphology which makes it clear when the lexeme is being used in
>> the nominal sense,
>
> I've taken that approach to form adjectives- making adjectival
> concepts into verb roots, which have derivations for the quality-noun
> (e.g., red = red-ness) and an attributive (red = red-ish).
>
> But it feels to me like that strategy just wants to be used for
> qualities and other abstract things. There's a big difference between
> having a verb for "to be happy" and a verb for "to be a rock".
>
> I'll have to think about it some more; that approach could certainly
> work for some things, but it just doesn't quite feel right.
This idea is also growing on me, in slightly modified form. I've
already got multiple derivational classes, with one of the
distinctions between them being roots that can take focus arguments
and roots that can't, the latter group being divided into roots for
which a focus doesn't make sense and root s for which the focus is
implicit in the root itself. Noun roots could easily be represented as
instances of that last class, with actual lexical nouns being the
"action nominal" (though that particular description of it doesn't
really fit in this case) derivation, roughly equivalent to a gerund
for the verby roots and a quality nominal for the adjectivy roots.
On 29 February 2012 02:27, Peter Cyrus <[email protected]> wrote:
> My big words were just masking a small thought. I was thinking of things
> like English "telephone pole", where "pole" indicates the structure, the
> how, and "telephone" indicates the function, the why. Your verbs seem to
> indicate function well, but you're lacking the vocabulary to distinguish
> the various contributions that pen, pencil and ink make to writing.
Ah, I see. That, however, requires actually having pre-existing
nominals to put into the "structure" slot. I guess that's kind of what
I'm going for with the classifier idea.
-l.
Messages in this topic (7)
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3a. Re: NATLANG: Con-scripting a Hamer writing system
Posted by: "Paul Bennett" [email protected]
Date: Sun Mar 4, 2012 2:06 am ((PST))
On Sat, 03 Mar 2012 19:14:22 -0500, Michael Everson <[email protected]>
wrote:
> On 4 Mar 2012, at 00:03, Paul Bennett wrote:
>
>> http://sites.google.com/site/paulwbennett/Home/Hamer.pdf
>
> Are you using only encoded characters?
I used a few combining characters for the macrons on the romanization, but
it's all bona fide Unicode.
I also had to struggle with the combining macron below on the Ge'ez
characters. Libre Office crashes hard if you try to mix & match character
sets, so I emulated it with underlining.
I'll start preparing some actual example texts right now.
--
Paul
Messages in this topic (17)
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3b. Re: NATLANG: Con-scripting a Hamer writing system
Posted by: "Michael Everson" [email protected]
Date: Sun Mar 4, 2012 2:54 am ((PST))
On 4 Mar 2012, at 10:05, Paul Bennett wrote:
> I also had to struggle with the combining macron below on the Ge'ez
> characters. Libre Office crashes hard if you try to mix & match character
> sets, so I emulated it with underlining.
That should not be the case. Combining marks inherit
What you need, of course, is to make sure that a combining macron below occurs
in your Ethiopic font. Otherwise LibreOffice will substitute a combining macron
below from another font which may be your difficulty.
Or use other Ethiopic characters that don't need a combining macron below. *Or*
use the combining Ethiopic characters which have been encoded (one, two, or
three dots above).
http://www.unicode.org/charts/PDF/U1200.pdf
http://www.unicode.org/charts/PDF/U1380.pdf
http://www.unicode.org/charts/PDF/U2D80.pdf
http://www.unicode.org/charts/PDF/UAB00.pdf
Styled-text underlining is a bad emulation. :-(
Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
Messages in this topic (17)
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3c. Re: NATLANG: Con-scripting a Hamer writing system
Posted by: "Paul Bennett" [email protected]
Date: Sun Mar 4, 2012 3:41 am ((PST))
On Sun, 04 Mar 2012 05:54:26 -0500, Michael Everson <[email protected]>
wrote:
> [U]se the combining Ethiopic characters which have been encoded (one,
> two, or three dots above).
>Styled-text underlining is a bad emulation. :-(
I agree on both counts. Excellent advice.
v0.2 is now up at http://sites.google.com/site/paulwbennett/Home/Hamer.pdf
Work still very much in progress.
--
Paul
Messages in this topic (17)
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4a. Re: OT Syllable structure, German
Posted by: "Armin Buch" [email protected]
Date: Sun Mar 4, 2012 2:08 am ((PST))
Am 04.03.2012 02:57, schrieb Eric Christopherson:
> On Mar 3, 2012, at 4:11 PM, Armin Buch wrote:
>
>> - it does not include initial /tsv,kv/ and rare /sk,km/ (Skat, Khmer). /sts/
>> ("Szene", scene) is debatable; few people actually pronounce it that way.
>
> How do most pronounce it?
Simply ['se:.n@] instead of ['stse:.n@], yet I've never encountered the
more faithful* ['tse:.n@], so this is probably by influence of English
(word-initial [s] is not native to German, orthographic "s" is /z/.
mid-word, you have "ß", i.e. the "sz"-ligature, and "ss" for /s/).
*) Input-output faithfulness, as in
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optimality_Theory and other contraint-based
accounts of phonology.
Messages in this topic (11)
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5a. Re: OT Syllable structure, German
Posted by: "Carsten Becker" [email protected]
Date: Sun Mar 4, 2012 5:27 am ((PST))
On Sat, 3 Mar 2012 21:53:58 +0100, Armin Buch <[email protected]>
wrote:
>[hErps.t@s].
That doesn't work for speakers who vocalize post-consonantal /r/, though.
It's [hɛɐ̯pst(ə)s] then, reducing the sequence by one
consonant (although
phonemically, the /r/ is still there, of course).
Cheers,
[kʰaːstⁿ]
:P
Messages in this topic (11)
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5b. Re: OT Syllable structure, German
Posted by: "Carsten Becker" [email protected]
Date: Sun Mar 4, 2012 5:30 am ((PST))
Meh, posting through the list's web interface (I'm on NOMAIL at the moment),
all of the non-ASCII came through as &#;. I meant [hE6_^pst(@)s] and
["k_ha:st_n] respectively.
--CB
Messages in this topic (11)
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