There are 25 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. Re: inflection and agreement of adverbs?
From: Jim Henry
1b. Re: inflection and agreement of adverbs?
From: David McCann
1c. Re: inflection and agreement of adverbs?
From: Patrick Dunn
1d. Re: inflection and agreement of adverbs?
From: Ian Spolarich
1e. Re: inflection and agreement of adverbs?
From: Padraic Brown
1f. Re: inflection and agreement of adverbs?
From: Padraic Brown
1g. Re: inflection and agreement of adverbs?
From: Jeffrey Daniel Rollin-Jones
1h. Re: inflection and agreement of adverbs?
From: Alex Fink
1i. Re: inflection and agreement of adverbs?
From: Ian Spolarich
1j. Re: inflection and agreement of adverbs?
From: René Uittenbogaard
1k. Re: inflection and agreement of adverbs?
From: Roman Rausch
2a. A very short conlang challenge (game)
From: Gary Shannon
2b. Re: A very short conlang challenge (game)
From: Mechthild Czapp
2c. Re: A very short conlang challenge (game)
From: Gary Shannon
2d. Re: A very short conlang challenge (game)
From: David Peterson
2e. Re: A very short conlang challenge (game)
From: Billy JB
2f. Re: A very short conlang challenge (game)
From: Sam Stutter
2g. Re: A very short conlang challenge (game)
From: Matthew A. Gurevitch
2h. Re: A very short conlang challenge (game)
From: Hugo Cesar de Castro Carneiro
2i. Re: A very short conlang challenge (game)
From: Hugo Cesar de Castro Carneiro
2j. Re: A very short conlang challenge (game)
From: Gary Shannon
2k. Re: A very short conlang challenge (game)
From: Brian Woodward
3. Dabükot nulik Vödabuka ela de Jong
From: Michael Everson
4a. Re: Target audiences of conlangs in media (was: R2D2 language)
From: Christian Thalmann
4b. Re: Target audiences of conlangs in media (was: R2D2 language)
From: Gary Shannon
Messages
________________________________________________________________________
1a. Re: inflection and agreement of adverbs?
Posted by: "Jim Henry" [email protected]
Date: Sun Apr 8, 2012 8:01 am ((PDT))
On 4/7/12, Padraic Brown <[email protected]> wrote:
> --- On Sat, 4/7/12, Roman Rausch <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> I'm wondering whether it is possible to have adverbs agree in person
>> and/or number with the verbs they're modifying, for example:
One of my short-lived sketchy artlangs had adverbs that agreed with
the verb in tense and mood, but not in person and number. I don't
think the verbs inflected for person and number in that language
anyway.
> Begs the question why? Why would you need such redundancy? Do you really
> need something like "rapideverunt cucurrerunt"? This is probably why
> adverbs aren't conjugated in the first place, if they're just going to
> show the same information that is displayed by the verb.
The same argument would apply to adjective agreement too, I expect.
One reason might be to disambiguate which verb a given adverb applies
to without requiring strict word order, just as adjective agreement
lets you move adjectives around relative to their head noun for
topicalization or focus or whatever without losing clarity.
But fewer sentences have multiple verbs than have multiple nouns, and
most of those with two or more verbs have exactly two verbs where one
verb modifies the meaning of the other; so which verb is the head of a
given adverb may not matter very often, or may be obvious because the
semantics of one of the verbs doesn't support the adverb's meaning.
(E.g., in "You must finish quickly", "quickly" has to modify "finish"
because it doesn't make sense with "must"; having a duty is not an
event that occurs at a particular speed.) So those factors probably
explain why adverb agreement is rare if not nonexistent in natlangs.
--
Jim Henry
http://www.pobox.com/~jimhenry/
Messages in this topic (16)
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1b. Re: inflection and agreement of adverbs?
Posted by: "David McCann" [email protected]
Date: Sun Apr 8, 2012 8:16 am ((PDT))
A quick trip to my bookshelf shows two mentions of adverbial agreement
(no examples, though): in Maori they agree with the verb in voice,
while in Avar they agree in gender with the absolutive noun in
their clause. Agreement in person or number seems more likely to me
than agreement in voice; it's probably done somewhere up the Amazon!
On Sat, 7 Apr 2012 18:19:17 -0400
Roman Rausch <[email protected]> wrote:
> I'm wondering whether it is possible to have adverbs agree in person
> and/or number with the verbs they're modifying, for example:
Messages in this topic (16)
________________________________________________________________________
1c. Re: inflection and agreement of adverbs?
Posted by: "Patrick Dunn" [email protected]
Date: Sun Apr 8, 2012 9:05 am ((PDT))
On Sun, Apr 8, 2012 at 10:01 AM, Jim Henry <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 4/7/12, Padraic Brown <[email protected]> wrote:
> > --- On Sat, 4/7/12, Roman Rausch <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >> I'm wondering whether it is possible to have adverbs agree in person
> >> and/or number with the verbs they're modifying, for example:
>
> One of my short-lived sketchy artlangs had adverbs that agreed with
> the verb in tense and mood, but not in person and number. I don't
> think the verbs inflected for person and number in that language
> anyway.
>
> > Begs the question why? Why would you need such redundancy? Do you really
> > need something like "rapideverunt cucurrerunt"? This is probably why
> > adverbs aren't conjugated in the first place, if they're just going to
> > show the same information that is displayed by the verb.
>
> The same argument would apply to adjective agreement too, I expect.
> One reason might be to disambiguate which verb a given adverb applies
> to without requiring strict word order, just as adjective agreement
> lets you move adjectives around relative to their head noun for
> topicalization or focus or whatever without losing clarity.
>
> But fewer sentences have multiple verbs than have multiple nouns, and
> most of those with two or more verbs have exactly two verbs where one
> verb modifies the meaning of the other; so which verb is the head of a
> given adverb may not matter very often, or may be obvious because the
> semantics of one of the verbs doesn't support the adverb's meaning.
> (E.g., in "You must finish quickly", "quickly" has to modify "finish"
> because it doesn't make sense with "must"; having a duty is not an
> event that occurs at a particular speed.) So those factors probably
> explain why adverb agreement is rare if not nonexistent in natlangs.
>
There are natlangs in which clauses can routinely have multiple finite
verbs that do not necessarily act as modals. Usually, though, they have
the same subject and object, so agreement wouldn't help much in
disambiguating them.
--
Second Person, a chapbook of poetry by Patrick Dunn, is now available for
order from Finishing Line
Press<http://www.finishinglinepress.com/NewReleasesandForthcomingTitles.htm>
and
Amazon<http://www.amazon.com/Second-Person-Patrick-Dunn/dp/1599249065/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1324342341&sr=8-2>.
Messages in this topic (16)
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1d. Re: inflection and agreement of adverbs?
Posted by: "Ian Spolarich" [email protected]
Date: Sun Apr 8, 2012 9:17 am ((PDT))
One of my conlangs has this, where the adverb must agree with the verb.
That is, it must be the same person, number, and tense (as well as any
other inflections) as the verb in the clause. But there is also another
class of adverbs that must agree with a noun in the sentence. These adverbs
act like nouns, using the noun declensions, and have to agree with either
the subject or object in the sentence.
For example, the adverb _cënteçâ_ agrees with the verb:
Toçu cëntit woekit.
dog.NOM slowly.3sg.PRS run.3sg.PRS
The adverb _pastê_ agrees with the noun:
Pastê toçu woekit.
quickly.NOM dog.NOM run.3sg.PRS
On 8 April 2012 10:15, David McCann <[email protected]> wrote:
> A quick trip to my bookshelf shows two mentions of adverbial agreement
> (no examples, though): in Maori they agree with the verb in voice,
> while in Avar they agree in gender with the absolutive noun in
> their clause. Agreement in person or number seems more likely to me
> than agreement in voice; it's probably done somewhere up the Amazon!
>
> On Sat, 7 Apr 2012 18:19:17 -0400
> Roman Rausch <[email protected]> wrote:
> > I'm wondering whether it is possible to have adverbs agree in person
> > and/or number with the verbs they're modifying, for example:
>
Messages in this topic (16)
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1e. Re: inflection and agreement of adverbs?
Posted by: "Padraic Brown" [email protected]
Date: Sun Apr 8, 2012 10:38 am ((PDT))
--- On Sun, 4/8/12, Jim Henry <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> I'm wondering whether it is possible to have
> adverbs agree in person
> >> and/or number with the verbs they're modifying, for
> example:
>
> > Begs the question why? Why would you need such
> redundancy? Do you really
> > need something like "rapideverunt cucurrerunt"? This is
> probably why
> > adverbs aren't conjugated in the first place, if
> they're just going to
> > show the same information that is displayed by the
> verb.
>
> The same argument would apply to adjective agreement too, I expect.
Yep. I guess if one -ibus isn't enough to convey grammatical function,
then two or three might do the trick!
Looking at my languages, I think most of them -- even the inflected IE
ones -- do not generally require such agreement. I think the Latinesque
ones (Pretorian notably) are about the only ones that do.
Talarian explicitly does not have any adjectives -- it uses an inanimate
noun in the accusative or genitive case depending. (There are some
exceptions that could harken back to a time when there was adjectival
declension and therefore agreement.)
Yllurian (Talarian's closest relative) has adjectives, which it declines
like nouns, but as often as not places all adjectives in the vocative case.
Wreynoldian uses attributive noun constructions in the locative to indicate
quality.
Lucarian has adjectives, but they are undeclined.
> One reason might be to disambiguate which verb a given
> adverb applies
> to without requiring strict word order,
True that, though I'd wonder at how often a verb from a different sentence
or phrase gets mixed up something else. In other words, does this happen
enough for speakers to feel compelled to mark an adverb as agreeing with
this verb and not that one?
> just as adjective agreement
> lets you move adjectives around relative to their head noun
> for
> topicalization or focus or whatever without losing clarity.
Right. But even there, (except in poetry especially) how far afield do
adjectives really roam from their nouns? We don't go on about the qualities
of such and such a thing, and then throw in a random adjective describing
some person from the noun phrase after next.
I guess you còuld arrange words in such a way that such agreement becomes
a necessity (or at least a relief) in order to sort out what you mean:
rapidet ignaverunt exilis ingentes vulpes canes supersaltat dum durmierunt
> But fewer sentences have multiple verbs than have multiple
> nouns, and
> most of those with two or more verbs have exactly two verbs
> where one
> verb modifies the meaning of the other; so which verb is the
> head of a
> given adverb may not matter very often, or may be obvious
> because the
> semantics of one of the verbs doesn't support the adverb's
> meaning.
> (E.g., in "You must finish quickly", "quickly" has to modify
> "finish"
> because it doesn't make sense with "must"; having a duty is
> not an
> event that occurs at a particular speed.) So those
> factors probably
> explain why adverb agreement is rare if not nonexistent in
> natlangs.
Sensible.
> Jim Henry
Padraic
Messages in this topic (16)
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1f. Re: inflection and agreement of adverbs?
Posted by: "Padraic Brown" [email protected]
Date: Sun Apr 8, 2012 10:42 am ((PDT))
--- On Sun, 4/8/12, Ian Spolarich <[email protected]> wrote:
> For example, the adverb _cënteçâ_ agrees with the verb:
>
> Toçu cëntit woekit.
> dog.NOM slowly.3sg.PRS run.3sg.PRS
>
> The adverb _pastê_ agrees with the noun:
>
> Pastê toçu woekit.
> quickly.NOM dog.NOM run.3sg.PRS
How would "the quick/fast dog runs" look in comparison?
By the way, I like how "woekit" sounds like English "walk", but means
"run".
Padraic
Messages in this topic (16)
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1g. Re: inflection and agreement of adverbs?
Posted by: "Jeffrey Daniel Rollin-Jones" [email protected]
Date: Sun Apr 8, 2012 11:28 am ((PDT))
Sent from my iPhone
On 8 Apr 2012, at 00:54, Padraic Brown <[email protected]> wrote:
> --- On Sat, 4/7/12, Roman Rausch <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> I'm wondering whether it is possible to have adverbs agree in person
>> and/or number with the verbs they're modifying, for example:
>
> Why not? You could conjugate them in a verbal fashion to show whatever
> you need them to show.
>
>> 'He runs quickly'
>> = he quick-3.SG.ADV run-3.SG
>> rather than just 'he quick-ADV run-3.SG'
>
> rapidet currit.
>
>> 'They run quickly'
>> = they quick-3.PL.ADV run-3.PL
>> or at least:
>> = they quick-PL.ADV run-3.PL
>
> rapident current.
>
>> So you would have a singular and a plural form of the adverb
>> at the very
>> least (not necessarily related to the plural of adjectives);
>> or a whole
>> paradigm of adverb conjugation for person. You could have
>> gender agreement,
>> if it's marked on the verbs; and of course agreement in
>> tense, aspect and
>> all that good stuff.
>
> Begs the question why? Why would you need such redundancy? Do you really
> need something like "rapideverunt cucurrerunt"?
Redundancy seems to be helpful; after all, you don't *need* adjectival
agreement in number, case and gender (English does fine with "my house", "my
houses", "in my house" and "in my houses"), but it exists! (Cf. German "Mein
Haus", "Meine Häuser" and "in meinem Haus"/"in meinen Häusern".
> This is probably why
> adverbs aren't conjugated in the first place, if they're just going to
> show the same information that is displayed by the verb.
In some Caucasian languages, adverbs agree in number and gender with the
subject/patient of the verb (I can dig out some examples if you want them).
>
>> But the basic question would be: Are there plural adverbs?
>
> If you want there to be, sure!
>
>> This seems like a logical possibility, yet doesn't seem to happen in
>> Indo-European. Maybe somewhere else, including conlangs?
>
> Some IE languages have conjugated preverbs (prepositions used with verbs),
> so why not conjugate something else like adverbs?
>
> Padraic
Messages in this topic (16)
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1h. Re: inflection and agreement of adverbs?
Posted by: "Alex Fink" [email protected]
Date: Sun Apr 8, 2012 11:48 am ((PDT))
On Sun, 8 Apr 2012 11:16:49 -0500, Ian Spolarich <[email protected]> wrote:
>One of my conlangs has this, where the adverb must agree with the verb.
>That is, it must be the same person, number, and tense (as well as any
>other inflections) as the verb in the clause. But there is also another
>class of adverbs that must agree with a noun in the sentence. These adverbs
>act like nouns, using the noun declensions, and have to agree with either
>the subject or object in the sentence.
If there is a subject and an object in the sentence, how does one choose
which to agree with? What if there is neither?
Do you envision a way the ones that agree with nouns would have come about?
The ones that agree with verbs make sense, they're some kind of coverb.
Is the division of meanings into the two classes at all systematic? The
example you picked suggests not, but maybe it's an anomaly. I'd expect it
to be (maybe sentential adverbs vs. others? manner vs. time vs. etc.?)
unless one of the processes is older and unproductive, and the other is
newer and productive (but even then one would probably get the more "core"
meanings tendentially in the older class).
Alex
Messages in this topic (16)
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1i. Re: inflection and agreement of adverbs?
Posted by: "Ian Spolarich" [email protected]
Date: Sun Apr 8, 2012 2:54 pm ((PDT))
When a sentence has both a noun and a subject, the adverb that agrees with
the noun can agree with either. These have different shades of meaning. For
example:
"The dog runs quickly to the park" can be:
Pastê toçu zaanê woekit.
quickly.NOM dog.NOM park.ACC run.3sg.PRS
or
Toçu pastes zaanê woekit.
dog.NOM quickly.ACC park.ACC run.3sg.PRS
In the first sentence, it is more important that the *dog* is running
quickly, while in the second sentence, it is more important that the dog is
running to the park quickly, i.e., the dog might be running somewhere else,
but not quickly.
By default, one would use subject-adverb agreement unless you want special
emphasis.
As far as what adverb belongs to what class, there is a group of adverbs
that have little relationship to each other but just happen to be in one
class or another. However, each class does contain a sizeable amount of
similar-meaning adverbs:
Verb-Agreement adverbs:
* manner adverbs dealing with movement--specifically in a "positive" way.
e.g., quickly, greatly etc.
* time adverbs, e.g. soon, tomorrow, now
* "feeling" adverbs, e.g. happily, nicely, meanly
Noun-Agreement adverbs:
* manner adverbs dealing with movement, specifically in a negative way:
e.g., slowly, quietly, tiredly
* "position" adverbs, e.g. neatly, finely, closely, barely, mostly
Generally speaking, "newer" adverbs, especially those derived from other
words, are almost always verb-agreement. The noun-agreement adverbs contain
a large amount of adverbs that do not correspond meaning-wise, such adverbs
as "in a way that makes one angry" (_skruenes_) tend to be in this
category. Also, adverbs derrived from nouns, such as "timely" (from
'time'), and "cat-like" belong largely to this category.
As far as how this distinction came about, originally, adverbs formed their
own class of words that did not agree with the verb or noun in a clause. At
some point, it became fashionable amongst the bourgeois of the time to make
one's adverbs agree with one's verbs. While this would ordinarily lead to
all adverbs agreeing with the verb, by this point, the adverb class had
developed at least 2 genders and classes of its own, leading to a very
irregular adoption to the new class. Thus, the bourgeois only adopted a
select few classes of the adverbs into their new system, leaving the others
to fend for themselves. As a reaction to this trend, some time later a
philosopher argued that adverbs should be treated as adjectives and thus
made to agree with the nouns in a clause. This lead to a wave of adverbs,
especially those considered to be adjectival in nature, to be assimilated
into this class. However, the linguists of the day were not entirely
confident in what was and what wasn't an adverb, and they left the class of
verb-agreement adverbs alone, leaving two rather distinct classes of
adverbs.
Nowadays, most new adverbs are assigned to the verb-agreement class, and
some common adverbs, such as "now," have two versions that can agree with
either the noun or verb. When there are two versions of an adverb, it is
more common to make the adverb agree with the verb. There are slight shades
of meaning associated with either system.
-I hope that helps explain a little bit, looking at it, it looks rather
confusing and implausible... But as far as I'm concerned, I definitely like
having such an unusual adverb system, however implausible.
On 8 April 2012 13:47, Alex Fink <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Sun, 8 Apr 2012 11:16:49 -0500, Ian Spolarich <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> >One of my conlangs has this, where the adverb must agree with the verb.
> >That is, it must be the same person, number, and tense (as well as any
> >other inflections) as the verb in the clause. But there is also another
> >class of adverbs that must agree with a noun in the sentence. These
> adverbs
> >act like nouns, using the noun declensions, and have to agree with either
> >the subject or object in the sentence.
>
> If there is a subject and an object in the sentence, how does one choose
> which to agree with? What if there is neither?
>
> Do you envision a way the ones that agree with nouns would have come about?
> The ones that agree with verbs make sense, they're some kind of coverb.
>
> Is the division of meanings into the two classes at all systematic? The
> example you picked suggests not, but maybe it's an anomaly. I'd expect it
> to be (maybe sentential adverbs vs. others? manner vs. time vs. etc.?)
> unless one of the processes is older and unproductive, and the other is
> newer and productive (but even then one would probably get the more "core"
> meanings tendentially in the older class).
>
> Alex
>
Messages in this topic (16)
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1j. Re: inflection and agreement of adverbs?
Posted by: "René Uittenbogaard" [email protected]
Date: Mon Apr 9, 2012 1:06 am ((PDT))
What if verbs had a "class" or "gender", and adverbs agreed with that?
Although that would probably only be useful if it is possible to have
multiple finite forms in one clause.
Example:
The soldier-NOM runs.CL1 breathes.CL2 enthusiastically-CL1 heavily-CL2.
The driver-NOM shifts.CL1 gears-ACC drives.CL2 smoothly-CL1.
René
Messages in this topic (16)
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1k. Re: inflection and agreement of adverbs?
Posted by: "Roman Rausch" [email protected]
Date: Mon Apr 9, 2012 5:13 am ((PDT))
>Begs the question why? Why would you need such redundancy? Do you really
>need something like "rapideverunt cucurrerunt"? This is probably why
>adverbs aren't conjugated in the first place, if they're just going to
>show the same information that is displayed by the verb.
>I guess you còuld arrange words in such a way that such agreement becomes
>a necessity (or at least a relief) in order to sort out what you mean:
>rapidet ignaverunt exilis ingentes vulpes canes supersaltat dum durmierunt
Basically, you can front the adverb for focus; and having agreement, your
listener can anticipate what's going to happen. Isn't this kind of thing
actually done with participles in Greek (and maybe Latin as well)?
>In some Caucasian languages, adverbs agree in number and gender with the
>subject/patient of the verb (I can dig out some examples if you want them).
Which languages exactly? That would be helpful to know.
>Do you envision a way the ones that agree with nouns would have come about?
>The ones that agree with verbs make sense, they're some kind of coverb.
What about such a scenario: At first there is adjective agreement, but there
are no adverbs, quickness is a property of the subject. Then an adverbial
marker appears and is agglutinated to the adjectives. It could be the word
'now', for example:
'dog-NOM quick-NOM now run-3.SG'
> 'dog-NOM quick-NOM-ADV run-3.SG'
With the proper devastating sound changes it could lead to a separate
adverbial inflection pattern (season with salt and more adverbial markers
for more devastation).
>What if verbs had a "class" or "gender", and adverbs agreed with that?
>Although that would probably only be useful if it is possible to have
>multiple finite forms in one clause.
We have that kind of thing in English, in fact: Sensory state verbs take
adjectives rather than adverbs: 'feel sick', 'taste weird'. I'm not sure
whether 'shine bright' comes about because of the stative verb or whether
it's a historical accident of OE _beorhte_ having lost its adverbial ending.
In any case, such a system can be further fine-tuned and complicated in a
conlang, of course.
Messages in this topic (16)
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2a. A very short conlang challenge (game)
Posted by: "Gary Shannon" [email protected]
Date: Sun Apr 8, 2012 10:12 am ((PDT))
Just for fun... Here is a cartoon: http://fiziwig.com/kalau.png
Your challenge, should you choose to accept it, is to figure out what
it means and produce a gloss for the words in the cartoon.
(For the record, I have no idea what it means. They are semi-random
syllables I picked just because they sounded nice, and shared bits and
pieces among themselves in a seemingly plausible roots and stems sort
of way.)
I thought it might be fun to take the most interesting gloss and then
do another cartoon with more new "words" and a grammar consistent with
the previous gloss(es).
--gary
Messages in this topic (11)
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2b. Re: A very short conlang challenge (game)
Posted by: "Mechthild Czapp" [email protected]
Date: Sun Apr 8, 2012 12:57 pm ((PDT))
Like this:
Wakinayabo!
Wakinaya-bo!
Terrible-(4th person)
It's terrible!
dja kaukau mudji surakumadjau patai.
dja kaukau mudji sura-ku-madjau patai.
make.IMP call weather future-person-speak now.
We must contact the weather forecast.
Asa dju dima raku baisubakai.
Asa dju dima raku baisu-ba-kai.
their soft wind tree(ACC) fall-PST-make.
Their light wind felled the tree.
On 08.04.2012, at 18:11, Gary Shannon wrote:
> Just for fun... Here is a cartoon: http://fiziwig.com/kalau.png
>
> Your challenge, should you choose to accept it, is to figure out what
> it means and produce a gloss for the words in the cartoon.
>
> (For the record, I have no idea what it means. They are semi-random
> syllables I picked just because they sounded nice, and shared bits and
> pieces among themselves in a seemingly plausible roots and stems sort
> of way.)
>
> I thought it might be fun to take the most interesting gloss and then
> do another cartoon with more new "words" and a grammar consistent with
> the previous gloss(es).
>
> --gary
Messages in this topic (11)
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2c. Re: A very short conlang challenge (game)
Posted by: "Gary Shannon" [email protected]
Date: Sun Apr 8, 2012 1:34 pm ((PDT))
Good job! And all this time I thought "mudji" was "tree". Thanks for
straightening me out on that! ;-)
--gary
On Sun, Apr 8, 2012 at 12:57 PM, Mechthild Czapp <[email protected]> wrote:
> Like this:
>
> Wakinayabo!
> Wakinaya-bo!
> Terrible-(4th person)
> It's terrible!
>
> dja kaukau mudji surakumadjau patai.
> dja kaukau mudji sura-ku-madjau patai.
> make.IMP call weather future-person-speak now.
> We must contact the weather forecast.
>
> Asa dju dima raku baisubakai.
> Asa dju dima raku baisu-ba-kai.
> their soft wind tree(ACC) fall-PST-make.
> Their light wind felled the tree.
Messages in this topic (11)
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2d. Re: A very short conlang challenge (game)
Posted by: "David Peterson" [email protected]
Date: Sun Apr 8, 2012 1:40 pm ((PDT))
Ha! That's a really neat idea. You should do a series of them!
David Peterson
LCS President
[email protected]
www.conlang.org
On Apr 8, 2012, at 10:11 AM, Gary Shannon wrote:
> Just for fun... Here is a cartoon: http://fiziwig.com/kalau.png
>
> Your challenge, should you choose to accept it, is to figure out what
> it means and produce a gloss for the words in the cartoon.
>
> (For the record, I have no idea what it means. They are semi-random
> syllables I picked just because they sounded nice, and shared bits and
> pieces among themselves in a seemingly plausible roots and stems sort
> of way.)
>
> I thought it might be fun to take the most interesting gloss and then
> do another cartoon with more new "words" and a grammar consistent with
> the previous gloss(es).
>
> --gary
Messages in this topic (11)
________________________________________________________________________
2e. Re: A very short conlang challenge (game)
Posted by: "Billy JB" [email protected]
Date: Sun Apr 8, 2012 2:41 pm ((PDT))
I'll give it a shot…
Wakinayabo!
Wak-i-na-ya-bo
woe-ABS-to-1PL-LOC
Woe unto our home!
Dja kaukau mudji surakumadjau patai
dja kau~k<a>u mudj-i sura-ku-madj<a>u
pat-ai
now PRF~blow<PST> wind-ABS down-CAUS-wind<PST> tree-ABS
Now that the wind has blown, the tree has been windfelled.
asa dju dima raku baisubakai
asa dju dima raku baisu-bak-ai
probably good AUX call safety-seller-ABS
It would probably be good to call the insurance man.
Bweh, I tried at least.
On 8 April 2012 19:11, Gary Shannon <[email protected]> wrote:
> Just for fun... Here is a cartoon: http://fiziwig.com/kalau.png
>
> Your challenge, should you choose to accept it, is to figure out what
> it means and produce a gloss for the words in the cartoon.
>
> (For the record, I have no idea what it means. They are semi-random
> syllables I picked just because they sounded nice, and shared bits and
> pieces among themselves in a seemingly plausible roots and stems sort
> of way.)
>
> I thought it might be fun to take the most interesting gloss and then
> do another cartoon with more new "words" and a grammar consistent with
> the previous gloss(es).
>
> --gary
>
Messages in this topic (11)
________________________________________________________________________
2f. Re: A very short conlang challenge (game)
Posted by: "Sam Stutter" [email protected]
Date: Sun Apr 8, 2012 4:06 pm ((PDT))
Less inventive linguistically:
Yabo = hell (masculine)
Wakin = blood (unknown gender)
Mudji = house (feminine)
Pat = property (unknown gender)
Sur = nation (unknown gender)
Kumadj = trust (masculine)
Asa = there
Dim = smallness (unknown gender)
Raku = boy (masculine)
Baisubak = underneath
Nominal grammar:
+ai = accusative suffix
+au = genitive suffix
Reduplication is used to mark plurality.
The definite is marked with an article. Where an article is absent, the noun is
indefinite
Adjectival grammar:
+a = suffix to agree with masculine noun
Verbal grammar:
Conjugation of the verb "to be":
Dja = 3rd person feminine present
Dju = 3rd person masculine present
Pronominal grammar:
k = 1st person singular
Hence:
Wakinayabo
bloody(masc-agree) hell(m)
Dja kaukau mudji
be(3f-sing-present) I(gen) I(gen) <our> house(f)
Surakumadjau patai.
National(masc-agree) Trust(m)(gen) property(acc)
Asa dju
there be(3m-sing-present)
Dima raku
small(masc-agree) boy(m)
Baisubakai
underneath(acc)
Literally:
Bloody hell! Our house must be a National Trust property. There is a small boy
underneath.
Which refers to a number of tragic cases of bad tree-maintenance on National
Trust land in the UK, in which kids have been squished underneath rotten trees
which are felled in the wind.
Sam Stutter
[email protected]
"No e na'l cu barri"
On 8 Apr 2012, at 22:41, Billy JB <[email protected]> wrote:
> I'll give it a shot…
>
> Wakinayabo!
> Wak-i-na-ya-bo
> woe-ABS-to-1PL-LOC
> Woe unto our home!
>
> Dja kaukau mudji surakumadjau patai
> dja kau~k<a>u mudj-i sura-ku-madj<a>u
> pat-ai
> now PRF~blow<PST> wind-ABS down-CAUS-wind<PST> tree-ABS
> Now that the wind has blown, the tree has been windfelled.
>
> asa dju dima raku baisubakai
> asa dju dima raku baisu-bak-ai
> probably good AUX call safety-seller-ABS
> It would probably be good to call the insurance man.
>
> Bweh, I tried at least.
>
> On 8 April 2012 19:11, Gary Shannon <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Just for fun... Here is a cartoon: http://fiziwig.com/kalau.png
>>
>> Your challenge, should you choose to accept it, is to figure out what
>> it means and produce a gloss for the words in the cartoon.
>>
>> (For the record, I have no idea what it means. They are semi-random
>> syllables I picked just because they sounded nice, and shared bits and
>> pieces among themselves in a seemingly plausible roots and stems sort
>> of way.)
>>
>> I thought it might be fun to take the most interesting gloss and then
>> do another cartoon with more new "words" and a grammar consistent with
>> the previous gloss(es).
>>
>> --gary
>>
Messages in this topic (11)
________________________________________________________________________
2g. Re: A very short conlang challenge (game)
Posted by: "Matthew A. Gurevitch" [email protected]
Date: Sun Apr 8, 2012 6:27 pm ((PDT))
Dear Conlangers,
I have less experience doing this (and so almost ended up with a superfluously
ergative-absolutive system). It became a nominative-accusative language, with
free word order with the nouns and the verb at the end. It takes this odd
inverse form, where to switch the agent and patient, you must use the form of
to be and a special infix with the infinitive, and I reuse one affix as both a
past marker on verbs and a nominative marker on nouns, as well as my own
somewhat informal terminology.
Wakinayabo
Wa - kinaya - bo!
1s - husband - vocative
My husband!
Dja kaukau mudji surakumadjau patai
Dj -a kau-reduplicated mudja - i su- raku
-madj -a- u patai
lawn-accusative well- very yesterday-time.when 2s -cut-
grass-accusative-past woe.interjection
Oh no, you mowed the lawn so well yesterday.
Asa dju dima raku baidubakai
Asa dj- u dim - a raku
bai-infixed.du-reduplicated.bai-infixed.ak
Again lawn-nominative same.person-accusative cut.infinative be- must
-very- inverser
The lawn must be cut thoroughly again by the same person.
Hope this is at least a little linguistically interesting.
--Matthew
-----Original Message-----
From: Sam Stutter <[email protected]>
To: CONLANG <[email protected]>
Sent: Sun, Apr 8, 2012 7:07 pm
Subject: Re: A very short conlang challenge (game)
Less inventive linguistically:
Yabo = hell (masculine)
Wakin = blood (unknown gender)
Mudji = house (feminine)
Pat = property (unknown gender)
Sur = nation (unknown gender)
Kumadj = trust (masculine)
Asa = there
Dim = smallness (unknown gender)
Raku = boy (masculine)
Baisubak = underneath
Nominal grammar:
+ai = accusative suffix
+au = genitive suffix
Reduplication is used to mark plurality.
The definite is marked with an article. Where an article is absent, the noun is
indefinite
Adjectival grammar:
+a = suffix to agree with masculine noun
Verbal grammar:
Conjugation of the verb "to be":
Dja = 3rd person feminine present
Dju = 3rd person masculine present
Pronominal grammar:
k = 1st person singular
Hence:
Wakinayabo
bloody(masc-agree) hell(m)
Dja kaukau mudji
be(3f-sing-present) I(gen) I(gen) <our> house(f)
Surakumadjau patai.
National(masc-agree) Trust(m)(gen) property(acc)
Asa dju
there be(3m-sing-present)
Dima raku
small(masc-agree) boy(m)
Baisubakai
underneath(acc)
Literally:
Bloody hell! Our house must be a National Trust property. There is a small boy
underneath.
Which refers to a number of tragic cases of bad tree-maintenance on National
Trust land in the UK, in which kids have been squished underneath rotten trees
which are felled in the wind.
Sam Stutter
[email protected]
"No e na'l cu barri"
On 8 Apr 2012, at 22:41, Billy JB <[email protected]> wrote:
> I'll give it a shot…
>
> Wakinayabo!
> Wak-i-na-ya-bo
> woe-ABS-to-1PL-LOC
> Woe unto our home!
>
> Dja kaukau mudji surakumadjau patai
> dja kau~k<a>u mudj-i sura-ku-madj<a>u
> pat-ai
> now PRF~blow<PST> wind-ABS down-CAUS-wind<PST> tree-ABS
> Now that the wind has blown, the tree has been windfelled.
>
> asa dju dima raku baisubakai
> asa dju dima raku baisu-bak-ai
> probably good AUX call safety-seller-ABS
> It would probably be good to call the insurance man.
>
> Bweh, I tried at least.
>
> On 8 April 2012 19:11, Gary Shannon <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Just for fun... Here is a cartoon: http://fiziwig.com/kalau.png
>>
>> Your challenge, should you choose to accept it, is to figure out what
>> it means and produce a gloss for the words in the cartoon.
>>
>> (For the record, I have no idea what it means. They are semi-random
>> syllables I picked just because they sounded nice, and shared bits and
>> pieces among themselves in a seemingly plausible roots and stems sort
>> of way.)
>>
>> I thought it might be fun to take the most interesting gloss and then
>> do another cartoon with more new "words" and a grammar consistent with
>> the previous gloss(es).
>>
>> --gary
>>
Messages in this topic (11)
________________________________________________________________________
2h. Re: A very short conlang challenge (game)
Posted by: "Hugo Cesar de Castro Carneiro" [email protected]
Date: Sun Apr 8, 2012 6:36 pm ((PDT))
dj - person marker
+a - 1st
+u - 2nd
+i - 3rd
m+ - dative (applied only to pronouns) - epenthetic vowel must be inserted
reduplication can be used to indicate the amount of something or plural
Nouns ending in:
-k (action realm),
-s (spiritual/feeling realm)
-t (touchable/solid realm)
Noun cases:
-a (ergative)
-u (genitive)
-i (dative)
- (absolutive)
dependent-marking language
Vocabulary:
wak - weeping
k - feeling
surak - falling
pat - tree
as - life
dima - almighty
bais - underworld
bak - sending
Nayabo - God of Life, Death and Nature
Translation:
Wakinayabo!
Wak-i-nayabo!
Wak-DAT-Nayabo!
Weepings to Nayabo!
dja kaukau mudji surakumadjau patai.
dj-a k-a-u|k-a-u mu-dj-i surak-u-ma-dj-a-u pat-a-i.
PRON-1 k-ERG-GEN|k-ERG-GEN DAT-PRON-3 surak-GEN-DAT-PRON-1-2 pat-ERG-DAT.
My feelings for it to the tree falling to our (seeing).
Asa dju dima raku baisubakai.
As-a dj-u dima rak-u bais-u-bak-a-i.
As-ERG PRON-2 dima rak-GEN bais-GEN-bak-ERG-DAT
The life you dear to the underworld to sending.
The complete story:
"The man can't believe his woman cut off the tree that existed in their yard"
Condolences to mighty Nayabo!
I feel too much for the tree we (he and his wife) saw falling upon us.
The life that you, almighty, sent to the underworld.
On Sun, Apr 8, 2012 at 8:05 PM, Sam Stutter <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> Less inventive linguistically:
>
> Yabo = hell (masculine)
> Wakin = blood (unknown gender)
> Mudji = house (feminine)
> Pat = property (unknown gender)
> Sur = nation (unknown gender)
> Kumadj = trust (masculine)
> Asa = there
> Dim = smallness (unknown gender)
> Raku = boy (masculine)
> Baisubak = underneath
>
> Nominal grammar:
> +ai = accusative suffix
> +au = genitive suffix
>
> Reduplication is used to mark plurality.
> The definite is marked with an article. Where an article is absent, the
> noun is indefinite
>
> Adjectival grammar:
> +a = suffix to agree with masculine noun
>
> Verbal grammar:
> Conjugation of the verb "to be":
> Dja = 3rd person feminine present
> Dju = 3rd person masculine present
>
> Pronominal grammar:
> k = 1st person singular
>
> Hence:
>
> Wakinayabo
> bloody(masc-agree) hell(m)
>
> Dja kaukau mudji
> be(3f-sing-present) I(gen) I(gen) <our> house(f)
>
> Surakumadjau patai.
> National(masc-agree) Trust(m)(gen) property(acc)
>
> Asa dju
> there be(3m-sing-present)
>
> Dima raku
> small(masc-agree) boy(m)
>
> Baisubakai
> underneath(acc)
>
> Literally:
> Bloody hell! Our house must be a National Trust property. There is a small
> boy underneath.
>
> Which refers to a number of tragic cases of bad tree-maintenance on
> National Trust land in the UK, in which kids have been squished underneath
> rotten trees which are felled in the wind.
>
> Sam Stutter
> [email protected]
> "No e na'l cu barri"
>
> On 8 Apr 2012, at 22:41, Billy JB <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > I'll give it a shot�
> >
> > Wakinayabo!
> > Wak-i-na-ya-bo
> > woe-ABS-to-1PL-LOC
> > Woe unto our home!
> >
> > Dja kaukau mudji surakumadjau patai
> > dja � kau~k<a>u � � � � � � � �mudj-i � � � � sura-ku-madj<a>u
> > � � pat-ai
> > now PRF~blow<PST> wind-ABS � down-CAUS-wind<PST> �tree-ABS
> > Now that the wind has blown, the tree has been windfelled.
> >
> > asa dju dima raku baisubakai
> > asa � � � �dju � � dima � �raku �baisu-bak-ai
> > probably good �AUX � � call � safety-seller-ABS
> > It would probably be good to call the insurance man.
> >
> > Bweh, I tried at least.
> >
> > On 8 April 2012 19:11, Gary Shannon <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >> Just for fun... Here is a cartoon: http://fiziwig.com/kalau.png
> >>
> >> Your challenge, should you choose to accept it, is to figure out what
> >> it means and produce a gloss for the words in the cartoon.
> >>
> >> (For the record, I have no idea what it means. They are semi-random
> >> syllables I picked just because they sounded nice, and shared bits and
> >> pieces among themselves in a seemingly plausible roots and stems sort
> >> of way.)
> >>
> >> I thought it might be fun to take the most interesting gloss and then
> >> do another cartoon with more new "words" and a grammar consistent with
> >> the previous gloss(es).
> >>
> >> --gary
> >>
Messages in this topic (11)
________________________________________________________________________
2i. Re: A very short conlang challenge (game)
Posted by: "Hugo Cesar de Castro Carneiro" [email protected]
Date: Sun Apr 8, 2012 6:38 pm ((PDT))
Errata:
On Sun, Apr 8, 2012 at 10:35 PM, Hugo Cesar de Castro Carneiro
<[email protected]> wrote:
> dj - person marker
> +a - 1st
> +u - 2nd
> +i - 3rd
> m+ - dative (applied only to pronouns) - epenthetic vowel must be inserted
>
> reduplication can be used to indicate the amount of something or plural
>
> Nouns ending in:
> -k (action realm),
> -s (spiritual/feeling realm)
> -t (touchable/solid realm)
>
> Noun cases:
> -a (ergative)
> -u (genitive)
> -i (dative)
> - (absolutive)
>
> dependent-marking language
>
>
> Vocabulary:
> wak - weeping
> k - feeling
> surak - falling
> pat - tree
> as - life
> dima - almighty
> bais - underworld
> bak - sending
>
> Nayabo - God of Life, Death and Nature
>
>
> Translation:
> Wakinayabo!
> Wak-i-nayabo!
> Wak-DAT-Nayabo!
>
> Weepings to Nayabo!
>
> dja kaukau mudji surakumadjau patai.
> dj-a k-a-u|k-a-u mu-dj-i surak-u-ma-dj-a-u pat-a-i.
> PRON-1 k-ERG-GEN|k-ERG-GEN DAT-PRON-3 surak-GEN-DAT-PRON-1-2 pat-ERG-DAT.
>
> My feelings for it to the tree falling to our (seeing).
>
> Asa dju dima raku baisubakai.
> As-a dj-u dima rak-u bais-u-bak-a-i.
> As-ERG PRON-2 dima rak-GEN bais-GEN-bak-ERG-DAT
>
> The life you dear to the underworld to sending.
>
>
> The complete story:
> "The man is impressed by the power of the God of Nature"
>
> Condolences to mighty Nayabo!
> I feel too much for the tree we (he and his wife) saw falling upon us.
> The life that you, almighty, sent to the underworld.
>
> On Sun, Apr 8, 2012 at 8:05 PM, Sam Stutter <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> Less inventive linguistically:
>>
>> Yabo = hell (masculine)
>> Wakin = blood (unknown gender)
>> Mudji = house (feminine)
>> Pat = property (unknown gender)
>> Sur = nation (unknown gender)
>> Kumadj = trust (masculine)
>> Asa = there
>> Dim = smallness (unknown gender)
>> Raku = boy (masculine)
>> Baisubak = underneath
>>
>> Nominal grammar:
>> +ai = accusative suffix
>> +au = genitive suffix
>>
>> Reduplication is used to mark plurality.
>> The definite is marked with an article. Where an article is absent, the
>> noun is indefinite
>>
>> Adjectival grammar:
>> +a = suffix to agree with masculine noun
>>
>> Verbal grammar:
>> Conjugation of the verb "to be":
>> Dja = 3rd person feminine present
>> Dju = 3rd person masculine present
>>
>> Pronominal grammar:
>> k = 1st person singular
>>
>> Hence:
>>
>> Wakinayabo
>> bloody(masc-agree) hell(m)
>>
>> Dja kaukau mudji
>> be(3f-sing-present) I(gen) I(gen) <our> house(f)
>>
>> Surakumadjau patai.
>> National(masc-agree) Trust(m)(gen) property(acc)
>>
>> Asa dju
>> there be(3m-sing-present)
>>
>> Dima raku
>> small(masc-agree) boy(m)
>>
>> Baisubakai
>> underneath(acc)
>>
>> Literally:
>> Bloody hell! Our house must be a National Trust property. There is a small
>> boy underneath.
>>
>> Which refers to a number of tragic cases of bad tree-maintenance on
>> National Trust land in the UK, in which kids have been squished underneath
>> rotten trees which are felled in the wind.
>>
>> Sam Stutter
>> [email protected]
>> "No e na'l cu barri"
>>
>> On 8 Apr 2012, at 22:41, Billy JB <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> > I'll give it a shot�
>> >
>> > Wakinayabo!
>> > Wak-i-na-ya-bo
>> > woe-ABS-to-1PL-LOC
>> > Woe unto our home!
>> >
>> > Dja kaukau mudji surakumadjau patai
>> > dja � kau~k<a>u � � � � � � � �mudj-i � � � � sura-ku-madj<a>u
>> > � � pat-ai
>> > now PRF~blow<PST> wind-ABS � down-CAUS-wind<PST> �tree-ABS
>> > Now that the wind has blown, the tree has been windfelled.
>> >
>> > asa dju dima raku baisubakai
>> > asa � � � �dju � � dima � �raku �baisu-bak-ai
>> > probably good �AUX � � call � safety-seller-ABS
>> > It would probably be good to call the insurance man.
>> >
>> > Bweh, I tried at least.
>> >
>> > On 8 April 2012 19:11, Gary Shannon <[email protected]> wrote:
>> >
>> >> Just for fun... Here is a cartoon: http://fiziwig.com/kalau.png
>> >>
>> >> Your challenge, should you choose to accept it, is to figure out what
>> >> it means and produce a gloss for the words in the cartoon.
>> >>
>> >> (For the record, I have no idea what it means. They are semi-random
>> >> syllables I picked just because they sounded nice, and shared bits and
>> >> pieces among themselves in a seemingly plausible roots and stems sort
>> >> of way.)
>> >>
>> >> I thought it might be fun to take the most interesting gloss and then
>> >> do another cartoon with more new "words" and a grammar consistent with
>> >> the previous gloss(es).
>> >>
>> >> --gary
>> >>
Messages in this topic (11)
________________________________________________________________________
2j. Re: A very short conlang challenge (game)
Posted by: "Gary Shannon" [email protected]
Date: Sun Apr 8, 2012 8:33 pm ((PDT))
Wow! These are all very imaginative! I decided to give it a try myself.
Wa-kina-yabo
very-good-thing
Wonderful!
Dja kau-kau mudji su-raku-madjau patai.
You.IMP cut-cut tree become-fire-wood.
You chop up the tree into firewood.
Asa dju dima raku ba-suba-kai.
Thus we have fire all-cold-season.
And we'll have a fire all winter.
--gary
Messages in this topic (11)
________________________________________________________________________
2k. Re: A very short conlang challenge (game)
Posted by: "Brian Woodward" [email protected]
Date: Mon Apr 9, 2012 6:35 am ((PDT))
Here's my attempt. (And please bear with me, I don't I ow the proper labeling
technique.)
Wakinayabo
Alas! "General exclamation of lament"
Dja-1s.nom kaukau-said-past perfective emphatic mudji-negative particle su-ACC
raku-tree madjau-change of state from natural to negative Pata-name i-VOC
Asa-now dju-1s.poss dimu-beautiful raku-tree baisu-future continuous bak-to rot
ai-denotes a future finality.
Translation:
Alas!
I said repeatedly not to uproot the tree, Pata.
Now my beautiful tree will rot to death.
It's not great but it was fun to do!
Brian
Sent from my iPhone
On Apr 8, 2012, at 12:11, Gary Shannon <[email protected]> wrote:
> Just for fun... Here is a cartoon: http://fiziwig.com/kalau.png
>
> Your challenge, should you choose to accept it, is to figure out what
> it means and produce a gloss for the words in the cartoon.
>
> (For the record, I have no idea what it means. They are semi-random
> syllables I picked just because they sounded nice, and shared bits and
> pieces among themselves in a seemingly plausible roots and stems sort
> of way.)
>
> I thought it might be fun to take the most interesting gloss and then
> do another cartoon with more new "words" and a grammar consistent with
> the previous gloss(es).
>
> --gary
Messages in this topic (11)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
3. Dabükot nulik Vödabuka ela de Jong
Posted by: "Michael Everson" [email protected]
Date: Sun Apr 8, 2012 1:34 pm ((PDT))
Pleidob vemo, das idabükob dabükoti nulik Vödabuka ela de Jong!
De adelo jü 1-id mayul 2012, osumob bonedis pro buk, a suäm tanäda ko sed
glato, if pelol ko PayPal. If nitedälikol, sedolöd obe ladeti olik e
telefonanumi olik stedöfiko, ed osedob ole kali.
http://www.evertype.com/books/dejong-worterbuch.html
I am very proud to have published a new edition of de Jong's Dictionary!
>From today until the 1st of May 2012, I will take orders for the book for
>cover price with free shipping if you pay by PayPal. If you are interested,
>send your address and phone number to me directly and I will send you an
>invoice.
Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
Messages in this topic (1)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
4a. Re: Target audiences of conlangs in media (was: R2D2 language)
Posted by: "Christian Thalmann" [email protected]
Date: Mon Apr 9, 2012 5:19 am ((PDT))
On Wed, 4 Apr 2012 22:58:16 -0700, Gary Shannon <[email protected]> wrote:
>On Wed, Apr 4, 2012 at 10:03 PM, MorphemeAddict <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> It seems like you substituted sounds (a>o, l>r, etc.). Is there a distinct
>> word for this kind of relex? I understand relex to be a word-for-word
>> substitution, rather than sound-for-sound (or letter-for-letter).
>I don't know. I guess you could consider it a cipher. On the other
>hand I just did it quickly and off the top of my head so I'm sure
>there are errors in my "translation". If I were going to do it for a
>novel I'd spend at least a couple hours drawing up a complete chart of
>"cipher" substitutions.
I did something like that for a play-by-post roleplaying game recently,
based on a substitution scheme I had proposed many years back on
conlang@yahoogroups. My character was cursed to speak only Terran when in
combat or under other duress, and I found it a rather fun and easy way to
produce language-like text (with a distinctly "earthy" feel, too). The
description is given below.
As a name for such phoneme-level subsititution schemes, I propose "Ondrus",
which is what becomes of "English" in my scheme.
1. Preparation:
If a word starts with a vowel, stick an h before it. If it starts with an h,
remove it. If a single vowel stands for the "long" pronunciation (as the i
in "hide"), put a circumflex accent on it and remove the now obsolete mute
e: "hide" > îd. Do the same for the digraphs "oo" and "ee", i.e., "steel" >
stêl. Invert the order of the digraphs "oa" and "ea", so "roast" > raost.
2. Substitution:
Every letter (or sound made by a group of letters) is replaced by a
similar-sounding letter. This ensures that the word stays pronounceable.
Stops, nasals, and fricatives just rotate their place of articulation by one
step: labial > dental > velar > labial, so:
p > t > k > p
b > d > g > b
f > th > kh > f
v > dh > gh > v
m > n > ng > m
Sibilants stay among each others, as to rhotics/liquids:
s > sh > s
z > zh > z (zh being the s in "measure")
ch > j > ch
r > l > r
And finally, vowels and semivowels just flip along the front/back dimension:
i > u > i
e > o > e
y > w > y (treat a y as an i when it acts like a vowel)
a is the only constant letter.
3. The ubiquitous English ending -s, which translates into -sh, can cause
some rather ugly consonant clusters. In those cases, one can fill in a vowel
before the ending to smooth things out a bit. Use a copy of the last vowel
in the word, e.g. "births" > dulkhsh > dulkhush. The same trick can be
applied to other unwieldy consonant clusters, for example "protect" >
tlekopk > tlekopok.
Here's a sample "translation":
I'm selling these fine leather jackets.
Hû'n shorrum ghôzh thûng raokhol chappokosh.
Cheers,
Christian Thalmann
Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________
4b. Re: Target audiences of conlangs in media (was: R2D2 language)
Posted by: "Gary Shannon" [email protected]
Date: Mon Apr 9, 2012 8:13 am ((PDT))
A very nifty set of transforms! The result bears no resemblance to English.
You could write the whole thing up as a computer program and
"translate" the complete works of Shakespeare in a single afternoon!
If you ran the text through a POS tagger first then you could even
have a different set of rules for nouns, verbs, adjs, etc., so that
"work" the verb would translate to something different than both
"work" the noun and "work" the adjective.
I've always thought it would be fun to have a "real" conlang (not just
a relex) that could be translated by computer. How fun would it be to
have available any book you wanted translated into your conlang?
--gary
On Mon, Apr 9, 2012 at 5:19 AM, Christian Thalmann <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Wed, 4 Apr 2012 22:58:16 -0700, Gary Shannon <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>On Wed, Apr 4, 2012 at 10:03 PM, MorphemeAddict <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>> It seems like you substituted sounds (a>o, l>r, etc.). Is there a distinct
>>> word for this kind of relex? I understand relex to be a word-for-word
>>> substitution, rather than sound-for-sound (or letter-for-letter).
>
>>I don't know. I guess you could consider it a cipher. On the other
>>hand I just did it quickly and off the top of my head so I'm sure
>>there are errors in my "translation". If I were going to do it for a
>>novel I'd spend at least a couple hours drawing up a complete chart of
>>"cipher" substitutions.
>
> I did something like that for a play-by-post roleplaying game recently,
> based on a substitution scheme I had proposed many years back on
> conlang@yahoogroups. My character was cursed to speak only Terran when in
> combat or under other duress, and I found it a rather fun and easy way to
> produce language-like text (with a distinctly "earthy" feel, too). The
> description is given below.
>
> As a name for such phoneme-level subsititution schemes, I propose "Ondrus",
> which is what becomes of "English" in my scheme.
>
>
> 1. Preparation:
> If a word starts with a vowel, stick an h before it. If it starts with an h,
> remove it. If a single vowel stands for the "long" pronunciation (as the i
> in "hide"), put a circumflex accent on it and remove the now obsolete mute
> e: "hide" > īd. Do the same for the digraphs "oo" and "ee", i.e., "steel" >
> stźl. Invert the order of the digraphs "oa" and "ea", so "roast" > raost.
>
> 2. Substitution:
> Every letter (or sound made by a group of letters) is replaced by a
> similar-sounding letter. This ensures that the word stays pronounceable.
>
> Stops, nasals, and fricatives just rotate their place of articulation by one
> step: labial > dental > velar > labial, so:
>
> p > t > k > p
> b > d > g > b
> f > th > kh > f
> v > dh > gh > v
> m > n > ng > m
>
> Sibilants stay among each others, as to rhotics/liquids:
> s > sh > s
> z > zh > z (zh being the s in "measure")
> ch > j > ch
> r > l > r
>
> And finally, vowels and semivowels just flip along the front/back dimension:
>
> i > u > i
> e > o > e
> y > w > y (treat a y as an i when it acts like a vowel)
> a is the only constant letter.
>
> 3. The ubiquitous English ending -s, which translates into -sh, can cause
> some rather ugly consonant clusters. In those cases, one can fill in a vowel
> before the ending to smooth things out a bit. Use a copy of the last vowel
> in the word, e.g. "births" > dulkhsh > dulkhush. The same trick can be
> applied to other unwieldy consonant clusters, for example "protect" >
> tlekopk > tlekopok.
>
> Here's a sample "translation":
>
> I'm selling these fine leather jackets.
> Hū'n shorrum ghōzh thūng raokhol chappokosh.
>
>
> Cheers,
>
> Christian Thalmann
Messages in this topic (9)
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