There are 21 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1. Imbedded adpositional phrases: is this a common occurrence?
From: Daniel Bowman
2a. OT: Latin translation
From: Daniel Bowman
2b. Re: OT: Latin translation
From: Matthew A. Gurevitch
2c. Re: OT: Latin translation
From: Matthew A. Gurevitch
2d. Re: OT: Latin translation
From: Matthew Boutilier
2e. Re: OT: Latin translation
From: Padraic Brown
2f. Re: OT: Latin translation
From: Patrick Dunn
2g. Re: OT: Latin translation
From: R A Brown
3a. Definiteness & Verb Classes
From: Ian Spolarich
3b. Re: Definiteness & Verb Classes
From: David Peterson
3c. Re: Definiteness & Verb Classes
From: MorphemeAddict
3d. Re: Definiteness & Verb Classes
From: Nikolay Ivankov
3e. Re: Definiteness & Verb Classes
From: Nikolay Ivankov
3f. Re: Definiteness & Verb Classes
From: Logan Kearsley
3g. Re: Definiteness & Verb Classes
From: Тоłе МаьіЛеƒіљ
3h. Re: Definiteness & Verb Classes
From: Sam Stutter
3i. Re: Definiteness & Verb Classes
From: Zach Wellstood
4a. A different sort of Conlang Relay
From: Sam Stutter
4b. Re: A different sort of Conlang Relay
From: Zach Wellstood
4c. Re: A different sort of Conlang Relay
From: Тоłе МаьіЛеƒіљ
4d. Re: A different sort of Conlang Relay
From: Fenhl
Messages
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1. Imbedded adpositional phrases: is this a common occurrence?
Posted by: "Daniel Bowman" [email protected]
Date: Sun Apr 29, 2012 8:00 pm ((PDT))
All,
I have been working on my conlang Angosey for many years now, and it lacks
quite a bit in the way of goals except that I want to keep it as L1-unbiased as
possible. In other words, since English is my L1, I don't want to
inadvertently include aspects of my native language in a conlang that is not
supposed to be related to English at all. Some of these, such as the existence
of consonant clusters like "dr" and "kl" are enshrined in older vocabulary and
part of the canon; I'm not willing to change that. But I am more flexible with
grammar.
Here's my problem:
Angosey is very postposition rich, mainly because it is adjective poor. I have
recently started to consider whether to allow postpositional phrases as
modifiers to subjects in my sentences. Angosey is VSO, so basically I'm
wondering if I should allow: VERB SUBJECT [postpositional phrase] object.
For example:
The light of the moon covers the forest.
Translated:
Sasreya ay halath azedrelaraeo ndala in alanga.
COVERS LIGHT MOON FROM FOREST
English easily adds prepositional phrases essentially wherever. Is this a
common occurrence among natural languages? Or are they in general more
restrictive than English in terms of where adpositional phrases (if they exist
at all) are allowed to go?
Any thoughts are much appreciated.
Danny
Messages in this topic (1)
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2a. OT: Latin translation
Posted by: "Daniel Bowman" [email protected]
Date: Sun Apr 29, 2012 8:08 pm ((PDT))
All,
I recently came across the group E Nomine, and while their music
is...unusual...it works really well for blasting through headphones while
running outside. It's like jogging through Paradise Lost. Anyway, I was
curious about a certain Latin phrase in one of their songs. I found the Latin
text online:
Silva in luminae
Lunae arcana est
Domus mea
Silva in luminae
Stellarum est.
I looked around for English translations but they didn't jive with what I could
understand. I would translate it like this:
The forest is lit up
The moon is [secretive? sacred? arcane?]
My abode.
The forest is illuminated.
[And starry?]
Online I found stuff like this:
The woods are covered
in the light of the moon
My home is the forest
covered by starlight
Granted my knowledge of Latin is based on online dictionaries of questionable
quality, my own sense of Romance languages, and general linguistic intuition.
How would someone who actually knows Latin translate this? For extra credit,
how would it sound in your conlang?
Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________
2b. Re: OT: Latin translation
Posted by: "Matthew A. Gurevitch" [email protected]
Date: Sun Apr 29, 2012 8:14 pm ((PDT))
My translation would be
In the secret forest of the light of the moon (I cannot find luminae in my
dictionary, so it is probably lumine, which is the ablative of lumen, and took
took silva as ablative) there is my house, the forest is in the light of the
stars. (again taking luminae as lumine because I could not find luminae)
--Matthew
-----Original Message-----
From: Daniel Bowman <[email protected]>
To: CONLANG <[email protected]>
Sent: Sun, Apr 29, 2012 11:08 pm
Subject: OT: Latin translation
All,
I recently came across the group E Nomine, and while their music
is...unusual...it works really well for blasting through headphones while
running outside. It's like jogging through Paradise Lost. Anyway, I was
curious about a certain Latin phrase in one of their songs. I found the Latin
text online:
Silva in luminae
Lunae arcana est
Domus mea
Silva in luminae
Stellarum est.
I looked around for English translations but they didn't jive with what I could
understand. I would translate it like this:
The forest is lit up
The moon is [secretive? sacred? arcane?]
My abode.
The forest is illuminated.
[And starry?]
Online I found stuff like this:
The woods are covered
in the light of the moon
My home is the forest
covered by starlight
Granted my knowledge of Latin is based on online dictionaries of questionable
quality, my own sense of Romance languages, and general linguistic intuition.
How would someone who actually knows Latin translate this? For extra credit,
how would it sound in your conlang?
Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________
2c. Re: OT: Latin translation
Posted by: "Matthew A. Gurevitch" [email protected]
Date: Sun Apr 29, 2012 8:20 pm ((PDT))
Sorry for the correction, but I mean "by the light of the moon"
To make up for my carelessness, I can gloss the text the way I interpret it.
Silva in luminae
silv-a in lumen-e
forest-ablative.sg in light-ablative.sg
Lunae arcana est
lun-ae arcan-a est
moon-genitive singular secret-ablative.sg.fem is.3rd.sg.pres.active.indicative
Domus mea
dom-us me-a
house-nom.sg mine-fem.sg.nom
Silva in luminae
silv-a in lumen-e
forest-nominative.sg in light-ablative.sg
Stellarum est.
stell-arum est
star-genitive.plural is.3rd.sg.pres.active.indicative
The reason I could take the two identical looking "silva"e as different cases
is because the distinction is determined by vowel length, which is not shown in
this text.
--Matthew
-----Original Message-----
From: Matthew A. Gurevitch <[email protected]>
To: CONLANG <[email protected]>
Sent: Sun, Apr 29, 2012 11:14 pm
Subject: Re: OT: Latin translation
My translation would be
In the secret forest of the light of the moon (I cannot find luminae in my
dictionary, so it is probably lumine, which is the ablative of lumen, and took
took silva as ablative) there is my house, the forest is in the light of the
stars. (again taking luminae as lumine because I could not find luminae)
--Matthew
-----Original Message-----
From: Daniel Bowman <[email protected]>
To: CONLANG <[email protected]>
Sent: Sun, Apr 29, 2012 11:08 pm
Subject: OT: Latin translation
All,
I recently came across the group E Nomine, and while their music
is...unusual...it works really well for blasting through headphones while
running outside. It's like jogging through Paradise Lost. Anyway, I was
curious about a certain Latin phrase in one of their songs. I found the Latin
text online:
Silva in luminae
Lunae arcana est
Domus mea
Silva in luminae
Stellarum est.
I looked around for English translations but they didn't jive with what I could
understand. I would translate it like this:
The forest is lit up
The moon is [secretive? sacred? arcane?]
My abode.
The forest is illuminated.
[And starry?]
Online I found stuff like this:
The woods are covered
in the light of the moon
My home is the forest
covered by starlight
Granted my knowledge of Latin is based on online dictionaries of questionable
quality, my own sense of Romance languages, and general linguistic intuition.
How would someone who actually knows Latin translate this? For extra credit,
how would it sound in your conlang?
Messages in this topic (7)
________________________________________________________________________
2d. Re: OT: Latin translation
Posted by: "Matthew Boutilier" [email protected]
Date: Sun Apr 29, 2012 8:23 pm ((PDT))
>
> In the secret forest of the light of the moon (I cannot find luminae in my
> dictionary, so it is probably lumine, which is the ablative of lumen, and
> took took silva as ablative) there is my house, the forest is in the light
> of the stars. (again taking luminae as lumine because I could not find
> luminae)
>
that sounds reasonable. _luminae_ isn't anything; a misspelling for
_lumine_ is plausible, especially as a hypercorrection, since in Medieval
Latin, classical <ae> is very often written <e> (since they were usually
pronounced the same at that point).
i would put an ablative of location beyond the grasp of those who rendered
the ABL.SG of _lumen_ as _luminae_, and myself would just assume _silva_
and _domus_ were in apposition somehow. but, it's ambiguous.
obviously i have not contributed much, and indeed my main reason for
commenting is to say that
> It's like jogging through Paradise Lost.
>
sounds like the very best thing ever, and i'm going to check out the music
posthaste.
cheers
matt
On Sun, Apr 29, 2012 at 10:14 PM, Matthew A. Gurevitch <[email protected]>wrote:
> My translation would be
>
> In the secret forest of the light of the moon (I cannot find luminae in my
> dictionary, so it is probably lumine, which is the ablative of lumen, and
> took took silva as ablative) there is my house, the forest is in the light
> of the stars. (again taking luminae as lumine because I could not find
> luminae)
>
> --Matthew
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Daniel Bowman <[email protected]>
> To: CONLANG <[email protected]>
> Sent: Sun, Apr 29, 2012 11:08 pm
> Subject: OT: Latin translation
>
>
> All,
>
> I recently came across the group E Nomine, and while their music
> is...unusual...it works really well for blasting through headphones while
> running outside. It's like jogging through Paradise Lost. Anyway, I was
> curious about a certain Latin phrase in one of their songs. I found the
> Latin
> text online:
>
> Silva in luminae
> Lunae arcana est
> Domus mea
> Silva in luminae
> Stellarum est.
>
> I looked around for English translations but they didn't jive with what I
> could
> understand. I would translate it like this:
>
> The forest is lit up
> The moon is [secretive? sacred? arcane?]
> My abode.
> The forest is illuminated.
> [And starry?]
>
> Online I found stuff like this:
>
> The woods are covered
> in the light of the moon
> My home is the forest
> covered by starlight
>
> Granted my knowledge of Latin is based on online dictionaries of
> questionable
> quality, my own sense of Romance languages, and general linguistic
> intuition.
>
> How would someone who actually knows Latin translate this? For extra
> credit,
> how would it sound in your conlang?
>
>
>
Messages in this topic (7)
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2e. Re: OT: Latin translation
Posted by: "Padraic Brown" [email protected]
Date: Sun Apr 29, 2012 8:44 pm ((PDT))
--- On Sun, 4/29/12, Daniel Bowman <[email protected]> wrote:
> I recently came across the group E Nomine, and while their
> music is...unusual...it works really well for blasting
> through headphones while running outside. It's like
> jogging through Paradise Lost. Anyway, I was curious
> about a certain Latin phrase in one of their songs. I
> found the Latin text online:
>
> Silva in luminae
> Lunae arcana est
> Domus mea
> Silva in luminae
> Stellarum est.
>
> How would someone who actually knows Latin translate
> this? For extra credit, how would it sound in your
> conlang?
Interesting! I see you've stumbled across one of old Julius H. Caesar's
favorite rope skipping rhymes, which as I recall he recounts in Book XII
of his Gallic Wars. You know the bit where he's been into the unwatered
wine, starts going on about his rough childhood, harsh schoolmasters and
how his old pater always told him about the good old days when Roman
children had to get up and milk the cows every morning and walk to school
in four feet of snow, uphill each way and jolly well be happy about it;
and then gets a bit silly with his centurions. Any rate, Loeb's (who
undoubtedly knows their Latin as good as the Latinians) has it translated
as:
Sylvia is so loony,
loony as can be;
Lord amighty,
Silvia is so loony,
and Stella is as well!
And then you start counting. As I recall, Sylvia and Stella were in young
Caesar's grammar school class. He was undoubtedly keen on them!
Padraic
Messages in this topic (7)
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2f. Re: OT: Latin translation
Posted by: "Patrick Dunn" [email protected]
Date: Sun Apr 29, 2012 8:48 pm ((PDT))
On Sun, Apr 29, 2012 at 10:44 PM, Padraic Brown <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
> Interesting! I see you've stumbled across one of old Julius H. Caesar's
> favorite rope skipping rhymes, which as I recall he recounts in Book XII
> of his Gallic Wars. You know the bit where he's been into the unwatered
> wine, starts going on about his rough childhood, harsh schoolmasters and
> how his old pater always told him about the good old days when Roman
> children had to get up and milk the cows every morning and walk to school
> in four feet of snow, uphill each way and jolly well be happy about it;
> and then gets a bit silly with his centurions. Any rate, Loeb's (who
> undoubtedly knows their Latin as good as the Latinians) has it translated
> as:
>
> Sylvia is so loony,
> loony as can be;
> Lord amighty,
> Silvia is so loony,
> and Stella is as well!
>
> And then you start counting. As I recall, Sylvia and Stella were in young
> Caesar's grammar school class. He was undoubtedly keen on them!
>
> Padraic
>
>
Padraic,
Why are you such a *liar <http://wondermark.com/829/>*? :)
http://wondermark.com/829/
--Patrick
Messages in this topic (7)
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2g. Re: OT: Latin translation
Posted by: "R A Brown" [email protected]
Date: Mon Apr 30, 2012 12:09 am ((PDT))
I guess I would be expected to add a comment or two ;)
On 30/04/2012 04:22, Matthew Boutilier wrote:
>>
[snip]
>
> that sounds reasonable. _luminae_ isn't anything; a
> misspelling for _lumine_ is plausible, especially as a
> hypercorrection, since in Medieval Latin, classical<ae>
> is very often written<e> (since they were usually
> pronounced the same at that point).
Yeo - and a google for "silva in lumine" gives quite a lot
of results :)
In medieval Latin the Classical _ae_ diphthong was AFAIK
always written _e_, as was also the less common ancient
diphthong _oe_. When the Classical spelling was restored at
the Renaissance, hypercorrections were not exactly uncommon ;)
> i would put an ablative of location beyond the grasp of
> those who rendered the ABL.SG of _lumen_ as _luminae_,
So would I! Indeed "ablative of location" is not normal in
Classical Latin either, tho the locative form of 3rd
declension, i.e -i, did give way to -e during the Roman
period. Ablative would more likely mean from, but here
_silva_ is surely the nominative case.
[snip]
So what about the verse?
Silva in lumine
Lunae arcana est
Domus mea
Silva in lumine
Stellarum est.
The other snag is that there is no punctuation. "est"
appears twice, so we clearly have two sentences/ clauses
here, so I assume:
"Silva in lumine arcana est; domus mea silva in lumine
stellarum est."
That also has the advantage of making sense :)
"The forest is enclosed in the light of the moon; my home is
the forest in the light of the stars."
--
Ray
==================================
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
Nid rhy hen neb i ddysgu.
There's none too old to learn.
[WELSH PROVERB]
Messages in this topic (7)
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3a. Definiteness & Verb Classes
Posted by: "Ian Spolarich" [email protected]
Date: Sun Apr 29, 2012 11:23 pm ((PDT))
Well, two things came to mind while on a flight to Chicago this evening
while I was working on a new conlang. My first question is, are there more
"levels" of definiteness than just "a" and "the"? Perhaps something like
"the only"? And my second question is, are there any natlangs that have
verb classes, beyond conjugations, for example a class of verbs dealing
with weather, "to snow" and the like?
Also, this is a random sort of problem, but you see, I really love the way
Swedish uses å ö ä (do they have ü?), and I wanted to incorporate them into
the conlang, but I don't have any vowels with those sounds, and I already
have <ë> and <ï> (that both stand for the same sound...). I'll just give my
vowel list and maybe someone can work them into the orthography!
IPA /ä e i ɪ ɨ u o (and maybe ʊ)/
X-sampa /a e i I I\ u o U/
Current orthography:
<a e i u ë-ï ou o>
Thanks!
-Ian Spolarich
Messages in this topic (9)
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3b. Re: Definiteness & Verb Classes
Posted by: "David Peterson" [email protected]
Date: Sun Apr 29, 2012 11:28 pm ((PDT))
On Apr 29, 2012, at 11:22 PM, Ian Spolarich wrote:
> Well, two things came to mind while on a flight to Chicago this evening
> while I was working on a new conlang. My first question is, are there more
> "levels" of definiteness than just "a" and "the"? Perhaps something like
> "the only"? And my second question is, are there any natlangs that have
> verb classes, beyond conjugations, for example a class of verbs dealing
> with weather, "to snow" and the like?
If I may, let me refer you to this message I posted back in 2005 on a paper
that discusses the "givenness hierarchy". It proposes a universal continuum of
"givenness" (which is another way of saying "definiteness"), and discusses how
a variety of languages realize different levels. The analysis of the paper (by
Gundel et al.) is a little problematic, in that English, it turns out, is the
only language they've founded which has a realization for each of their six
levels of givenness (surprise, surprise), but I think they are getting at
something interesting. I haven't read any follow-ups to the original paper, so
I don't know if their paper led to further illuminating analyses, but I still
think it's a fine place to start.
The link to the original post is below:
http://listserv.brown.edu/archives/cgi-bin/wa?A2=CONLANG;FHuv9Q;200505010127200700A
David Peterson
LCS President
[email protected]
www.conlang.org
Messages in this topic (9)
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3c. Re: Definiteness & Verb Classes
Posted by: "MorphemeAddict" [email protected]
Date: Sun Apr 29, 2012 11:30 pm ((PDT))
On Mon, Apr 30, 2012 at 2:22 AM, Ian Spolarich <[email protected]> wrote:
> Well, two things came to mind while on a flight to Chicago this evening
> while I was working on a new conlang. My first question is, are there more
> "levels" of definiteness than just "a" and "the"? Perhaps something like
> "the only"?
What do "a" and "the" mean? "A" introduces new information, "the" (among
other things) implies that the information it's attached to is not new. So,
are there other categories besides the binary one of 'new' and 'not new'?
stevo
And my second question is, are there any natlangs that have
> verb classes, beyond conjugations, for example a class of verbs dealing
> with weather, "to snow" and the like?
>
> Also, this is a random sort of problem, but you see, I really love the way
> Swedish uses å ö ä (do they have ü?), and I wanted to incorporate them into
> the conlang, but I don't have any vowels with those sounds, and I already
> have <ë> and <ï> (that both stand for the same sound...). I'll just give my
> vowel list and maybe someone can work them into the orthography!
> IPA /ä e i ɪ ɨ u o (and maybe ʊ)/
> X-sampa /a e i I I\ u o U/
>
> Current orthography:
> <a e i u ë-ï ou o>
>
> Thanks!
>
> -Ian Spolarich
>
Messages in this topic (9)
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3d. Re: Definiteness & Verb Classes
Posted by: "Nikolay Ivankov" [email protected]
Date: Sun Apr 29, 2012 11:38 pm ((PDT))
On Mon, Apr 30, 2012 at 8:22 AM, Ian Spolarich <[email protected]> wrote:
> Well, two things came to mind while on a flight to Chicago this evening
> while I was working on a new conlang. My first question is, are there more
> "levels" of definiteness than just "a" and "the"? Perhaps something like
> "the only"? And my second question is, are there any natlangs that have
> verb classes, beyond conjugations, for example a class of verbs dealing
> with weather, "to snow" and the like?
>
I've heard about the natlangs that use article to indicate first-hand
knowledge of a person or event. Can't remember the name of the lang though
- I'm always bad in that.
Also, this is a random sort of problem, but you see, I really love the way
> Swedish uses å ö ä (do they have ü?), and I wanted to incorporate them into
> the conlang, but I don't have any vowels with those sounds, and I already
> have <ë> and <ï> (that both stand for the same sound...). I'll just give my
> vowel list and maybe someone can work them into the orthography!
> IPA /ä e i ɪ ɨ u o (and maybe ʊ)/
> X-sampa /a e i I I\ u o U/
>
> Current orthography:
> <a e i u ë-ï ou o>
>
> Thanks!
>
> -Ian Spolarich
>
Messages in this topic (9)
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3e. Re: Definiteness & Verb Classes
Posted by: "Nikolay Ivankov" [email protected]
Date: Sun Apr 29, 2012 11:46 pm ((PDT))
On Mon, Apr 30, 2012 at 8:30 AM, MorphemeAddict <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 30, 2012 at 2:22 AM, Ian Spolarich <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> > Well, two things came to mind while on a flight to Chicago this evening
> > while I was working on a new conlang. My first question is, are there
> more
> > "levels" of definiteness than just "a" and "the"? Perhaps something like
> > "the only"?
>
>
> What do "a" and "the" mean? "A" introduces new information, "the" (among
> other things) implies that the information it's attached to is not new. So,
> are there other categories besides the binary one of 'new' and 'not new'?
>
> stevo
>
Ok, than, basin on my first answer, I can fancy a conlang in which the
"newness" is something relative to a man or a group.
1) pure "a", someone not known to anyone. "There was a hero".
2) personal "a" - something of which the person has a 1-hand experience, bu
the one he talks to does not. "There was a hero (and you're to young to
know him, but we used to have a good party together)".
3) common "a", the one both speaker and the group know "A hero came into a
village (well, all of us know who it was, ok)"
4) "the".
And maybe some other degrees of "evidentiality" may also be added.
>
> And my second question is, are there any natlangs that have
> > verb classes, beyond conjugations, for example a class of verbs dealing
> > with weather, "to snow" and the like?
> >
> > Also, this is a random sort of problem, but you see, I really love the
> way
> > Swedish uses å ö ä (do they have ü?), and I wanted to incorporate them
> into
> > the conlang, but I don't have any vowels with those sounds, and I already
> > have <ë> and <ï> (that both stand for the same sound...). I'll just give
> my
> > vowel list and maybe someone can work them into the orthography!
> > IPA /ä e i ɪ ɨ u o (and maybe ʊ)/
> > X-sampa /a e i I I\ u o U/
> >
> > Current orthography:
> > <a e i u ë-ï ou o>
> >
> > Thanks!
> >
> > -Ian Spolarich
> >
>
Messages in this topic (9)
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3f. Re: Definiteness & Verb Classes
Posted by: "Logan Kearsley" [email protected]
Date: Mon Apr 30, 2012 12:04 am ((PDT))
On 30 April 2012 00:22, Ian Spolarich <[email protected]> wrote:
> Well, two things came to mind while on a flight to Chicago this evening
> while I was working on a new conlang. My first question is, are there more
> "levels" of definiteness than just "a" and "the"? Perhaps something like
> "the only"?
I have a little-bit-more-than-sketch that has multiple categories of
definiteness inspired by Swedish. Don't quote me on *Swedish* actually
working this way, though; it's quite possible that I totally
misunderstood it, but reading a grammar of Swedish was the source of
inspiration.
There are four levels indicated by the combination of an article /
possessive pronoun & two inflections. Category 1 (indefinite
inflection) is "just any old one", "these things in general". Category
2 (art+indefinite) is "one of these things, that sort of thing" (e.g.,
"my sister-INDEF" == "one of my sisters", "the house-INDEF" == "a
house of that sort"/"one of those houses"). Category 3 (definite
inflection) is just like "the", stuff you're assumed to be able to
identify in the discourse context. Category 4 (art+definite) is "this
one specifically, the one that I have in mind", with no assumption
about whether or not you already know about it.
Mev Pailom, inspired by Blackfoot, has completely different multiple
categories based on referentiality. Category 1 (referential) is "I
have a specific thing in mind; ask me if you're not clear on which it
is". Category 2 (non-referential) is "I don't have a specific one in
mind"; used for general or theoretical statements, or when you don't
know what the actual referent is (e.g "some guy"- it's a specific one,
but I can't have him in mind, because I don't know who it is).
Category 3 (negative) is "not this, none of these"; e.g., "There's no
milk left!"- I can't be referring to any actual milk, because the
whole point is that there isn't any. Either of categories 1 or 2 can
be translated as "the" or "a" in different contexts.
-l.
Messages in this topic (9)
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3g. Re: Definiteness & Verb Classes
Posted by: "Тоłе МаьіЛеƒіљ" [email protected]
Date: Mon Apr 30, 2012 4:35 am ((PDT))
On 30.04.2012 08:22, Ian Spolarich wrote:
> Well, two things came to mind while on a flight to Chicago this evening
> while I was working on a new conlang. My first question is, are there more
> "levels" of definiteness than just "a" and "the"?
Delang has three "levels" of definiteness in singular, indefinite (an-
ан-), definate (d-/de- δ-/δе-) and something called Madz in Delang
(capitalization). I'm not sure what to call it in English, but it's
often used for cursing or to express a certain connection to the object.
For examples of the former check out
http://delang.conlang.org/wiki/Celangin_nezankt, while
http://delang.conlang.org/wiki/Cezjanti_i_cemuziq shows examples of the
latter. In plural there are four levels of definiteness, indefinite
(c-/ce- з-/зе-), definite (des-/dez- δеѕ-/δес-), numeric plural
indefinte (#-) and numeric plural definite (ka#- ка#-). The two latter
are used to indicate distance to the object(s), and are translated to
English as that/those [noun] and this/these [noun]. And as strange at it
might seem, numeric plural can be used to indicate singularity, while
Mads also can be used to indicate plurality, but it is never used in
that way in mass words like water.
Example:
pour water into the bottle
grolleti caqwh wedelagona
гłољеті заьѡƕ ѡеδелагона
/gɹuɭeti zaqw wedela:gu:na/
future-pour pl.indef-water ill.sing.def-bottle
>
> -Ian Spolarich
--
Тоłе МаьіЛеƒіљ МаьіПаніљ
Δебјані ҩнІљте Ьлеј
http://illte.conlang.org/ http://delang.conlang.org/
___
«Панемі ƒłе δеьлеј ҩнδеьомеłс» - анƕомі
Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________
3h. Re: Definiteness & Verb Classes
Posted by: "Sam Stutter" [email protected]
Date: Mon Apr 30, 2012 5:04 am ((PDT))
I always thought this was odd: with every other variable of a noun (number,
gender/class case, etc) there is always the potential for numerous
possibilities (such as the paucal or the instrumental case). The same goes for
verbs, with the variety of moods, tenses, aspects, persons, numbers, etc.
Definiteness has always seemed a bit "is that it?" to me; it's always the
shortest section of a grammar.
I can't get my head around a scale of definiteness which doesn't involve
evidentially (and therefore wouldn't "be discussed in that part of a grammar").
But then again, I've never in my life come across something which was polar
rather than a scale.
Sam Stutter
[email protected]
"No e na'l cu barri"
On 30 Apr 2012, at 08:04, Logan Kearsley <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 30 April 2012 00:22, Ian Spolarich <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Well, two things came to mind while on a flight to Chicago this evening
>> while I was working on a new conlang. My first question is, are there more
>> "levels" of definiteness than just "a" and "the"? Perhaps something like
>> "the only"?
>
> I have a little-bit-more-than-sketch that has multiple categories of
> definiteness inspired by Swedish. Don't quote me on *Swedish* actually
> working this way, though; it's quite possible that I totally
> misunderstood it, but reading a grammar of Swedish was the source of
> inspiration.
>
> There are four levels indicated by the combination of an article /
> possessive pronoun & two inflections. Category 1 (indefinite
> inflection) is "just any old one", "these things in general". Category
> 2 (art+indefinite) is "one of these things, that sort of thing" (e.g.,
> "my sister-INDEF" == "one of my sisters", "the house-INDEF" == "a
> house of that sort"/"one of those houses"). Category 3 (definite
> inflection) is just like "the", stuff you're assumed to be able to
> identify in the discourse context. Category 4 (art+definite) is "this
> one specifically, the one that I have in mind", with no assumption
> about whether or not you already know about it.
>
> Mev Pailom, inspired by Blackfoot, has completely different multiple
> categories based on referentiality. Category 1 (referential) is "I
> have a specific thing in mind; ask me if you're not clear on which it
> is". Category 2 (non-referential) is "I don't have a specific one in
> mind"; used for general or theoretical statements, or when you don't
> know what the actual referent is (e.g "some guy"- it's a specific one,
> but I can't have him in mind, because I don't know who it is).
> Category 3 (negative) is "not this, none of these"; e.g., "There's no
> milk left!"- I can't be referring to any actual milk, because the
> whole point is that there isn't any. Either of categories 1 or 2 can
> be translated as "the" or "a" in different contexts.
>
> -l.
Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________
3i. Re: Definiteness & Verb Classes
Posted by: "Zach Wellstood" [email protected]
Date: Mon Apr 30, 2012 5:24 am ((PDT))
This post got me thinking about my own conlang, because I think the concept
is kind of interesting. And then it dawned on me that I have kind of
inadvertently done something like this, but in a different way. In my
conlang, łaá siri, verbs are inflected for something I call "proximity." (I
made this up because I don't know if natlangs do it or something similar.)
Admittedly, I haven't thought about salience of new/old information with
these inflections, but I can definitely see the prospect of it in the
future. For instance, if you're saying "The dog bit the cat," the verb
would be inflected to indicate the proximity of the subject and the object
from the speaker. The degrees of proximity I outlined are: immediate (which
can also refer to "I"), near (which can also refer to any other pronouns),
distant, absent, abstract. Right now these only refer to physical distance,
but I think it would be interesting if they were extended to include
definiteness or indefiniteness. For instance, maybe the "near" morpheme
could also indicate a sot of, "this is new, pay attention!"
Interesting, this is!
On Mon, Apr 30, 2012 at 8:03 AM, Sam Stutter <[email protected]> wrote:
> I always thought this was odd: with every other variable of a noun
> (number, gender/class case, etc) there is always the potential for numerous
> possibilities (such as the paucal or the instrumental case). The same goes
> for verbs, with the variety of moods, tenses, aspects, persons, numbers,
> etc. Definiteness has always seemed a bit "is that it?" to me; it's always
> the shortest section of a grammar.
>
> I can't get my head around a scale of definiteness which doesn't involve
> evidentially (and therefore wouldn't "be discussed in that part of a
> grammar"). But then again, I've never in my life come across something
> which was polar rather than a scale.
>
> Sam Stutter
> [email protected]
> "No e na'l cu barri"
>
> On 30 Apr 2012, at 08:04, Logan Kearsley <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > On 30 April 2012 00:22, Ian Spolarich <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> Well, two things came to mind while on a flight to Chicago this evening
> >> while I was working on a new conlang. My first question is, are there
> more
> >> "levels" of definiteness than just "a" and "the"? Perhaps something like
> >> "the only"?
> >
> > I have a little-bit-more-than-sketch that has multiple categories of
> > definiteness inspired by Swedish. Don't quote me on *Swedish* actually
> > working this way, though; it's quite possible that I totally
> > misunderstood it, but reading a grammar of Swedish was the source of
> > inspiration.
> >
> > There are four levels indicated by the combination of an article /
> > possessive pronoun & two inflections. Category 1 (indefinite
> > inflection) is "just any old one", "these things in general". Category
> > 2 (art+indefinite) is "one of these things, that sort of thing" (e.g.,
> > "my sister-INDEF" == "one of my sisters", "the house-INDEF" == "a
> > house of that sort"/"one of those houses"). Category 3 (definite
> > inflection) is just like "the", stuff you're assumed to be able to
> > identify in the discourse context. Category 4 (art+definite) is "this
> > one specifically, the one that I have in mind", with no assumption
> > about whether or not you already know about it.
> >
> > Mev Pailom, inspired by Blackfoot, has completely different multiple
> > categories based on referentiality. Category 1 (referential) is "I
> > have a specific thing in mind; ask me if you're not clear on which it
> > is". Category 2 (non-referential) is "I don't have a specific one in
> > mind"; used for general or theoretical statements, or when you don't
> > know what the actual referent is (e.g "some guy"- it's a specific one,
> > but I can't have him in mind, because I don't know who it is).
> > Category 3 (negative) is "not this, none of these"; e.g., "There's no
> > milk left!"- I can't be referring to any actual milk, because the
> > whole point is that there isn't any. Either of categories 1 or 2 can
> > be translated as "the" or "a" in different contexts.
> >
> > -l.
>
--
<Say 'Yes' to Conlanging! <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conlang>>
ra'aalalí 'a!
Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
4a. A different sort of Conlang Relay
Posted by: "Sam Stutter" [email protected]
Date: Mon Apr 30, 2012 5:15 am ((PDT))
Okay, so not a relay, but what I thought might be interesting is to play some
sort of language evolution challenge.
We could swap conlangs and then use the language we receive to develop another
related language or dialect; a predecessor, a future form, a sister language, a
creole developed from contact with another language (possibly our own conlang),
a pidgin, or a dialect of another language spoken by descendants of the
received conlang.
I guess the advantage would be that you don't really *need* a fully developed
grammar or lexicon, because it can be extrapolated by the other player, and
it's not something you can get "wrong". And, hey, it doesn't have to be
scientifically rigorous if you didn't want it :)
Sam Stutter
[email protected]
"No e na'l cu barri"
Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
4b. Re: A different sort of Conlang Relay
Posted by: "Zach Wellstood" [email protected]
Date: Mon Apr 30, 2012 5:25 am ((PDT))
I think that would be an interesting thing to do!
On Mon, Apr 30, 2012 at 8:15 AM, Sam Stutter <[email protected]> wrote:
> Okay, so not a relay, but what I thought might be interesting is to play
> some sort of language evolution challenge.
>
> We could swap conlangs and then use the language we receive to develop
> another related language or dialect; a predecessor, a future form, a sister
> language, a creole developed from contact with another language (possibly
> our own conlang), a pidgin, or a dialect of another language spoken by
> descendants of the received conlang.
>
> I guess the advantage would be that you don't really *need* a fully
> developed grammar or lexicon, because it can be extrapolated by the other
> player, and it's not something you can get "wrong". And, hey, it doesn't
> have to be scientifically rigorous if you didn't want it :)
>
> Sam Stutter
> [email protected]
> "No e na'l cu barri"
--
<Say 'Yes' to Conlanging! <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conlang>>
ra'aalalí 'a!
Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
4c. Re: A different sort of Conlang Relay
Posted by: "Тоłе МаьіЛеƒіљ" [email protected]
Date: Mon Apr 30, 2012 5:40 am ((PDT))
Delang's available.
On 30.04.2012 14:15, Sam Stutter wrote:
> Okay, so not a relay, but what I thought might be interesting is to play some
> sort of language evolution challenge.
>
> We could swap conlangs and then use the language we receive to develop
> another related language or dialect; a predecessor, a future form, a sister
> language, a creole developed from contact with another language (possibly our
> own conlang), a pidgin, or a dialect of another language spoken by
> descendants of the received conlang.
>
> I guess the advantage would be that you don't really *need* a fully developed
> grammar or lexicon, because it can be extrapolated by the other player, and
> it's not something you can get "wrong". And, hey, it doesn't have to be
> scientifically rigorous if you didn't want it :)
>
> Sam Stutter
> [email protected]
> "No e na'l cu barri"
--
Тоłе МаьіЛеƒіљ МаьіПаніљ
Δебјані ҩнІљте Ьлеј
http://illte.conlang.org/ http://delang.conlang.org/
___
«Панемі ƒłе δеьлеј ҩнδеьомеłс» - анƕомі
Messages in this topic (4)
________________________________________________________________________
4d. Re: A different sort of Conlang Relay
Posted by: "Fenhl" [email protected]
Date: Mon Apr 30, 2012 5:47 am ((PDT))
On 2012-4-30 12:15, Sam Stutter <[email protected]> wrote:
> We could swap conlangs and then use the language we receive to develop
> another related language or dialect; a predecessor, a future form, a sister
> language, a creole developed from contact with another language (possibly our
> own conlang), a pidgin, or a dialect of another language spoken by
> descendants of the received conlang.
You mean like the games that resulted in the Akana conworld?
http://www.frathwiki.com/Akana
Messages in this topic (4)
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