There are 15 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. Re: what sort of semantic properties of arguments do verbs inflect f
From: Zach Wellstood
2.1. Re: Bernard Comrie, The World's Major Languages, 2ed (2011)
From: Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets
3.1. Re: Japanese pronouns (was: Bernard Comrie, The World's Major Langua
From: Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets
3.2. Re: Japanese pronouns (was: Bernard Comrie, The World's Major Langua
From: Douglas Koller
4a. Re: New LCS Website
From: Jennifer Collins-Jai
4b. Re: New LCS Website
From: Sylvia Sotomayor
5a. Re: gsfa [WAS: Basic Word Lists]
From: Roger Mills
5b. Re: gsfa [WAS: Basic Word Lists]
From: Gary Shannon
6a. Re: Graavgaaln case
From: Roger Mills
6b. Re: Graavgaaln case
From: Adam Walker
7a. Re: Basic Word Lists
From: Roger Mills
7b. Re: Basic Word Lists
From: Padraic Brown
8a. Re: multi-lang-conlang?
From: Anthony Miles
9. Siye: A Passionate Lover of Mars
From: Anthony Miles
10a. Re: <w> = /u/
From: Alex Fink
Messages
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1a. Re: what sort of semantic properties of arguments do verbs inflect f
Posted by: "Zach Wellstood" [email protected]
Date: Sat Sep 8, 2012 5:15 pm ((PDT))
I don't have my grammar of Navajo handy at the moment, but I kind of
remember reading something about special classes that verbs have to agree
with in terms of physical properties of noun arguments. Not really sure and
I can't give solid examples. I do remember that Navajo motion verbs tend to
encode shape/appearance of an object and the type of movement it makes (but
that's probably not inflected for, but shown by different roots
altogether).
So I can't really remember any other semantic properties verbs show in
natlangs (maybe the obvious physical gender rather than grammatical
gender??), but I'll shamelessly plug łaá siri and say that its verb roots
conjugate for the argument's(s') spatial deixis relative to the speaker
(based on five degrees: right here, right there, over there, not here, and
somewhere/anywhere).
Zach
On Sat, Sep 8, 2012 at 7:45 PM, MorphemeAddict <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Sat, Sep 8, 2012 at 7:21 PM, And Rosta <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > It's fairly common in natlangs for verbs to inflect for semantic
> > properties of one or more of their arguments, notably for the semantic
> > properties of person and number. For example, Italian _amo_ encodes that
> > the lover argument is Me,
>
>
> "I", not "Me".
>
>
> > _ami_ that the lover argument is Thee,
>
>
> "Thou", not "Thee".
>
> stevo
>
>
> > _ama_ that the lover argument is an individual, and _amano_ that the
> lover
> > argument is a group.
> >
> > What other semantic properties of arguments do verbs (or other sorts of
> > word) inflect for in natlangs and/or conlangs?
> >
> > I can think of inflections for physical properties of arguments (shape,
> > rigidity/consistency, arrangement) in (iirc, which is doubtful) Na Dene
> > lgs. What else?
> >
> > --And.
> >
>
--
<Say 'Yes' to Conlanging! <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conlang>>
ra'aalalí 'a!
Messages in this topic (4)
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2.1. Re: Bernard Comrie, The World's Major Languages, 2ed (2011)
Posted by: "Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets" [email protected]
Date: Sat Sep 8, 2012 6:03 pm ((PDT))
On 8 September 2012 21:47, Logan Kearsley <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> Does Japanese have any other pronoun-like stuff going on, like verbal
> agreement for person?
Nope, none at all. The closest it has is verb pairs like "ageru" and
"kureru", both meaning "to give", but one directed towards the speaker and
the other more towards the listener (although things are more complicated
than that, with considerations of in-group and out-group to take into
account). And there's the suffix "-tai": "to want", which when used implies
that the subject is the speaker. But it's not personal agreement, just a
cultural issue: it's considered impolite to pretend to know what somebody
else wants. But in principle, the form with "-tai" can be used in any
person, and sometimes is, if impolitely :) .
Of course, there are also the formal verb forms, with honorific forms that
are used to refer to the listener or 3rd parties (and the groups they
belong to), and humble forms that refer to the speaker and their in-group.
But it's not so much that they're marking person. Rather, their semantic
contents is such that they naturally fit one person better than the other,
and not following this natural fit is impolite (using honorifics to talk
about oneself sounds arrogant, using humble forms to talk about the
listener or a 3rd party is rude, but it can be done, if that's the effect
the speaker wants to reach).
> Or could it be reasonably analyzed as not
> grammaticalizing person or other pronominal stuff at all?
>
>
Good question. I don't think so: all the person stuff seems to be left
purely to semantics, and I can't think of a single grammatical feature that
is could be construed as categorically grammaticalising person.
--
Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets.
http://christophoronomicon.blogspot.com/
http://www.christophoronomicon.nl/
Messages in this topic (38)
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3.1. Re: Japanese pronouns (was: Bernard Comrie, The World's Major Langua
Posted by: "Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets" [email protected]
Date: Sat Sep 8, 2012 6:08 pm ((PDT))
On 8 September 2012 22:06, Jörg Rhiemeier <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> Japanese pronouns behave just like ordinary nouns, except that
> they take the plural marker -tachi if appropriate, which is
> usually not used with nouns (I don't know, though, whether
> pluralizing nouns is *forbidden* or just *not common practice*).
>
>
As I explained earlier in the original thread, further analysis of "-tachi"
shows that it's used on pronouns the same way as it's used on any noun used
as an identifier, i.e. a name, or a word like "okyakusan", meaning
"customer", and used by shop owners to talk to their clients. So this usage
is not due to a grammatical difference between pronouns and common nouns,
but simply to the fact that pronouns, by definition, are always used as
identifiers.
And pluralising common nouns is possible in Japanese, just not commonly
done.
--
Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets.
http://christophoronomicon.blogspot.com/
http://www.christophoronomicon.nl/
Messages in this topic (38)
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3.2. Re: Japanese pronouns (was: Bernard Comrie, The World's Major Langua
Posted by: "Douglas Koller" [email protected]
Date: Sun Sep 9, 2012 12:26 am ((PDT))
> Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2012 22:06:04 +0200
> From: [email protected]
> Subject: Japanese pronouns (was: Bernard Comrie, The World's Major Languages,
> 2ed (2011))
> To: [email protected]
> Japanese pronouns behave just like ordinary nouns, except that
> they take the plural marker -tachi if appropriate, which is
> usually not used with nouns (I don't know, though, whether
> pluralizing nouns is *forbidden* or just *not common practice*).
I have no problem imaging "hanatachi", "nekotachi", or "inutachi" in a
childern's story. So as Christpohe says, just not common practice.
Kou
Messages in this topic (38)
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4a. Re: New LCS Website
Posted by: "Jennifer Collins-Jai" [email protected]
Date: Sat Sep 8, 2012 6:44 pm ((PDT))
Aww whatever happened to Zachary's redesign? :(
On Sep 8, 2012 7:19 PM, "George Corley" <[email protected]> wrote:
> This looks so much better. I wish I could get her to do the Conlangery
> site.
>
> On Sat, Sep 8, 2012 at 6:02 PM, David Peterson <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > Just a quick note to let everyone know that Sylvia Sotomayor's redesigned
> > the LCS website:
> >
> > http://www.conlang.org/
> >
> > If you spot anything broken or anything you think might be missing,
> please
> > let us know at [email protected]. Otherwise, we hope you like the new look
> > and format.
> >
> > Fiat Lingua!
> >
> > David Peterson
> > LCS President
> > [email protected]
> > www.conlang.org
> >
>
Messages in this topic (4)
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4b. Re: New LCS Website
Posted by: "Sylvia Sotomayor" [email protected]
Date: Sat Sep 8, 2012 6:49 pm ((PDT))
Which one was that? We've had at least one person offer and then drop
out of communication. We also arranged to hire someone, and they
disappeared, too. So I did it.
-S
On Sat, Sep 8, 2012 at 6:44 PM, Jennifer Collins-Jai
<[email protected]> wrote:
> Aww whatever happened to Zachary's redesign? :(
> On Sep 8, 2012 7:19 PM, "George Corley" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> This looks so much better. I wish I could get her to do the Conlangery
>> site.
>>
>> On Sat, Sep 8, 2012 at 6:02 PM, David Peterson <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> > Just a quick note to let everyone know that Sylvia Sotomayor's redesigned
>> > the LCS website:
>> >
>> > http://www.conlang.org/
>> >
>> > If you spot anything broken or anything you think might be missing,
>> please
>> > let us know at [email protected]. Otherwise, we hope you like the new look
>> > and format.
>> >
>> > Fiat Lingua!
>> >
>> > David Peterson
>> > LCS President
>> > [email protected]
>> > www.conlang.org
>> >
>>
--
Sylvia Sotomayor
The sooner I fall behind the more time I have to catch up.
Messages in this topic (4)
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5a. Re: gsfa [WAS: Basic Word Lists]
Posted by: "Roger Mills" [email protected]
Date: Sat Sep 8, 2012 7:53 pm ((PDT))
--- On Sat, 9/8/12, Gary Shannon <[email protected]> wrote:
202. She is taller than her brother.
203. They are no wiser than we.
204. Light travels faster than sound.
205. We have more time than they.
206. She has more friends than enemies.
...
216. He has far more money than brains.
Or am I misunderstanding what you're looking for?
====================================================
No, but how about some where 'than' is followed by a complete sentence?
These are all cases of deleted sentences (or at least, deleted verbs).
And how about some like "John is taller than 6 ft." (no change of subject, no
deleted sentence/verb).
Or sentences with 'less, worse.' Speaking of that, are then any exs. of
sentences with 'least, worst'? Sorry, but I didn't go thru the whole list ;-((((
And consider Spanish, where numbers (as is 'I have more than 5') requires a
different construction (más de, not más que)-- whether these are a problem in
any other nat- or conlang I do not know.....
On Sat, Sep 8, 2012 at 9:23 AM, Roger Mills <[email protected]> wrote:
> I don't seem to see any examples with comparatives of the type1) "I like rice
> more than potatoes" or 2) "I like X more than John does" or 3) "I prefer X
> more than/over Y" or 4) "he eats faster than me/ ~I (do, can)" or 5) "he
> [talks more /.eats faster] than he [ought to/ is necessary]" -- I mention
> this because they were a bit of a problem in Kash, in that when "than" is
> followed by a complete (or deleted) sentence (as in #4,5) it requires a
> slightly different construction......There is one examples of "Name1 is Xer
> than Pron/Name2" which would fall into the same category. Cf:
>
...
> I sometimes loose track of what is on my own web site. It turns out I
> already did something of this sort back in 2010:
> http://fiziwig.com/conlang/syntax_tests.html
>
> --gary
Messages in this topic (11)
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5b. Re: gsfa [WAS: Basic Word Lists]
Posted by: "Gary Shannon" [email protected]
Date: Sat Sep 8, 2012 8:22 pm ((PDT))
On Sat, Sep 8, 2012 at 7:53 PM, Roger Mills <[email protected]> wrote:
> --- On Sat, 9/8/12, Gary Shannon <[email protected]> wrote:
> 202. She is taller than her brother.
> 203. They are no wiser than we.
> 204. Light travels faster than sound.
> 205. We have more time than they.
> 206. She has more friends than enemies.
> ...
> 216. He has far more money than brains.
>
> Or am I misunderstanding what you're looking for?
> ====================================================
>
> No, but how about some where 'than' is followed by a complete sentence?
> These are all cases of deleted sentences (or at least, deleted verbs).
>
> And how about some like "John is taller than 6 ft." (no change of subject, no
> deleted sentence/verb).
>
> Or sentences with 'less, worse.' Speaking of that, are then any exs. of
> sentences with 'least, worst'? Sorry, but I didn't go thru the whole list
> ;-((((
>
> And consider Spanish, where numbers (as is 'I have more than 5') requires a
> different construction (más de, not más que)-- whether these are a problem in
> any other nat- or conlang I do not know.....
Good suggestions. Thank you. I'll put that on my things to do list for
tomorrow. :)
--gary
Messages in this topic (11)
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6a. Re: Graavgaaln case
Posted by: "Roger Mills" [email protected]
Date: Sat Sep 8, 2012 7:59 pm ((PDT))
--- On Fri, 9/7/12, Adam Walker <[email protected]> wrote:
I am currently considering a noun case system for Graavgaaln the would mark
the Theta roles of Agent and (voluntary) Expiriencer alike and likewise
would combine (involuntary) Experiencer with Patient, Recipient and Theme
into a second marking. The first may be zero-marked, but the second would
have some type of suffix, so I'll give some examples with nonce vocab.
Kiiv taaskindsh hevuukhda. The warrior hit the man.
Hevuukh taaskindsh kiivda. The man hit the warrior.
Kiiv netaaskindsh. The warrior was hit. (He chose to let it happen.)
Kiivda netaaskindsh. The warrior was hit. (He may have been restrained
and beaten.)
Kiiv gikvadsh hevuukhda bvangda. The warrior gave the man the book.
Does this make sense?
===================================================
Yes, but what about a plain old passive-- 'the warrior was hit by an arrow'
(that's neither something he chose, nor was he restrained.)? Or the accidental
(or paranoid) passive 'the warrior got hit'?
Messages in this topic (3)
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6b. Re: Graavgaaln case
Posted by: "Adam Walker" [email protected]
Date: Sat Sep 8, 2012 8:59 pm ((PDT))
Well, in both those cases I would say the warrior is an involuntary
experiencer so warrior would be marked with ~da.
On 9/8/12, Roger Mills <[email protected]> wrote:
> --- On Fri, 9/7/12, Adam Walker <[email protected]> wrote:
> I am currently considering a noun case system for Graavgaaln the would mark
> the Theta roles of Agent and (voluntary) Expiriencer alike and likewise
> would combine (involuntary) Experiencer with Patient, Recipient and Theme
> into a second marking. The first may be zero-marked, but the second would
> have some type of suffix, so I'll give some examples with nonce vocab.
>
> Kiiv taaskindsh hevuukhda. The warrior hit the man.
> Hevuukh taaskindsh kiivda. The man hit the warrior.
> Kiiv netaaskindsh. The warrior was hit. (He chose to let it happen.)
> Kiivda netaaskindsh. The warrior was hit. (He may have been restrained
> and beaten.)
> Kiiv gikvadsh hevuukhda bvangda. The warrior gave the man the book.
>
> Does this make sense?
> ===================================================
>
> Yes, but what about a plain old passive-- 'the warrior was hit by an arrow'
> (that's neither something he chose, nor was he restrained.)? Or the
> accidental (or paranoid) passive 'the warrior got hit'?
>
Messages in this topic (3)
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7a. Re: Basic Word Lists
Posted by: "Roger Mills" [email protected]
Date: Sat Sep 8, 2012 8:18 pm ((PDT))
--- On Sat, 9/8/12, Padraic Brown <[email protected]> wrote:
--- On Thu, 9/6/12, Roger Mills <[email protected]> wrote:
> I think I have more than once touted
> by wordlist designed for research in Indonesia--
> http://cinduworld.tripod.com/wordlist.txt
> -- 1100+ words, but it can be adapted to fit any
> place..........
I know a lot of those words from Waray-Waray (PI). Interesting how
obviously cognate are certain words, like dua/duha, uban/oban, mata/mata,
telinga/talinga -- but others are completely different: tangan/camot,
kaki/ti'il, burit/bobot, jantung/puso, tooth/nipon; satu/usa. Pronouns
are very similar as well. I'm sure there must be a far deeper level of
cognate relationship than I'm aware of, you know, some words I think
aren't related might actually be related.
Thanks for reposting the list!
=========================================
you're welcome!! The sound correspondences between Malay/Indonesian and most PI
languages are not that difficult-- the Ml/In. vocabulary is what's changed a
lot, and it's not at all clear where some of the words come from, like jantung
and kaki. They sure ain't Sanskrit, or Javanese either (the usual suspect)!!
Or anjing 'dog', where almost every other MP language has a cognate of *asu.
It's also amazing that talinga and mata occur throughout the MP world, almost
without change (well, except maybe with k for t in Hawaiian.......).
Messages in this topic (17)
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7b. Re: Basic Word Lists
Posted by: "Padraic Brown" [email protected]
Date: Sat Sep 8, 2012 9:13 pm ((PDT))
--- On Sat, 9/8/12, Roger Mills <[email protected]> wrote:
> you're welcome!! The sound correspondences between
> Malay/Indonesian and most PI languages are not that
> difficult-- the Ml/In. vocabulary is what's changed a lot,
> and it's not at all clear where some of the words come from,
> like jantung and kaki. They sure ain't Sanskrit, or
> Javanese either (the usual suspect)!! Or anjing 'dog', where
> almost every other MP language has a cognate of *asu.
Well, W-W has ayam!
> It's also amazing that talinga and mata occur throughout the
> MP world, almost without change (well, except maybe with k
> for t in Hawaiian.......).
Yeah, as I recall, Hawaiian considerably reduces its consonant inventory.
Padraic
Messages in this topic (17)
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8a. Re: multi-lang-conlang?
Posted by: "Anthony Miles" [email protected]
Date: Sat Sep 8, 2012 10:05 pm ((PDT))
Siye and Ulok have borrowed syntax, morphology, and vocabulary from each other
extensively over the last two millennia. For example, Ulok has borrowed 3rd
person pronouns from Siye, while Siye has obligatory pronouns in statements due
to the resumptive pronouns of Ulok syntax. Both contain vocabulary drawn from
other, extinct languages like Utu Nes.
Messages in this topic (17)
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9. Siye: A Passionate Lover of Mars
Posted by: "Anthony Miles" [email protected]
Date: Sat Sep 8, 2012 10:54 pm ((PDT))
[This tale may sound familiar to students of Americana]
Leya tumna laye tum ekempukima.
A man loved a woman.
Leyaya laye lu layemetu ayekena:
This is what the man said to the mother of the woman:
(the number prefix is -ke-, PAUCAL, because a Siye statement will contain at
least three words.
It is perfective because reported speech is conceived as a complete act.)
Le layeke peme iltumpusumtetuma.
I want to marry your daughter.
Laye luya itu ayekena:
The mother said to him:
le petu layeke leme iletumpusumkakunu.
I do not intend you in any way to marry my daughter.
Itu peyapomike ekimkekina.
Unto her the years are few.
Leyaya layetu ayekena:
The man said to the woman:
laye lu pemena leso letumsosumkakunu.
Your mother has forbidden us to marry.
Iya letu ayekena:
She said to me:
petu peyapomike ekimkekina.
Unto you the years are few.
Tumku siwima ame:
Only say this:
peya letu pekimpukimam
you will be unto me and
peya ko um umsakumesone emkim pekemkukima.
you will be inside the arms of no other man.
Peya ko lemesone emkim nimu epuluwepuma.
You will find happiness inside my arms.
Leyaya layetu ayekena:
The man said to the woman:
leso sutukene tekem kemhusaki sakikemhumekem lesusome.
Let us two go on the path at the riverbank.
Iso kemhusakikem isusomam
The two of them walked along the bank and
leyaya laye yenukiki tutuku yiwipunema.
the man holds the woman forcefully with a knife.
Laye leyatu ayekena:
The woman said to the man:
la kepusumtonunu
do not kill me
le numu likemeka elekekanuya.
because I have not made the death gifts
Leya ko tuki-tuki imepuki sakikemhumsu ya iniku yisupusumtumam
The man took her down to the water by her white, white hand and
iso lu saki ikimsokimekem isusonumamam
they both went down to the water
leyaya ko imesoki laye yitupusumnunam
the man threw the woman with his hands
leyaya sakine emtu laye yitupusumtunam
the man threw the woman into the river
leyaya laye sakine tekem isupunumame yikoputuma.
the man watched the woman who floated down in the river.
Leya samni nelosum tummesukem imiputumam
The man walked home from dark (midnight) to one and
enepuyamkima ame:
thought this:
le pala elekenamo?
What have I done?
le laye supi ilompumame ilekepusumnuna
I have murdered the only woman I loved
iya la letumpusumkikaya
because she would not marry me.
Messages in this topic (1)
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10a. Re: <w> = /u/
Posted by: "Alex Fink" [email protected]
Date: Sat Sep 8, 2012 11:13 pm ((PDT))
On Sat, 8 Sep 2012 14:14:29 -0500, Matthew Boutilier <[email protected]>
wrote:
>the *weirder* question is why, in Germanic (and, i'm sure, elsewhere), the
>following arrangement seemed sensible:
><uu> = /w/
><u> = /u/
>my 'instincts' would flip them, with the longer sound corresponding to the
>longer symbol. unless the consonantality of /w/ suggested itself as more
>prominent for the orthography. but, such is life.
I've also been puzzled by this. It comes up (surely) independently in the
Avestan script which uses _ii_ and _uu_ for respectively [j] and [w]. My only
guess as to why this correspondence might suggest itself is that,
intervocalically, glides like to do the ambisyllabic thing of being a diphthong
offglide of one syllable and the onset of the next, so you write them once for
each syllable. But it could always be just "double for a secondary value".
Alex
Messages in this topic (3)
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