There are 15 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1. New Blog Post: Moten Part IX: Surdéclinaison, Main Verbal Use    
    From: Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets

2a. Re: respectively    
    From: Ian Spolarich
2b. Re: respectively    
    From: Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
2c. Re: respectively    
    From: Gary Shannon
2d. Re: respectively    
    From: Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
2e. Re: respectively    
    From: Charles W Brickner
2f. Re: respectively    
    From: Charles W Brickner
2g. Re: respectively    
    From: Charles W Brickner
2h. Re: respectively    
    From: Roger Mills

3a. Fa la la la la, la la la la!    
    From: Puey McCleary
3b. Re: Fa la la la la, la la la la!    
    From: Patrick Dunn

4a. Re: New Yorker magazine article on Ithkuil and conlanging    
    From: John Q
4b. Re: New Yorker magazine article on Ithkuil and conlanging    
    From: Logan Kearsley

5a. Re: contrafactual morphosyntax    
    From: Anthony Miles
5b. Re: contrafactual morphosyntax    
    From: Ian Spolarich


Messages
________________________________________________________________________
1. New Blog Post: Moten Part IX: Surdéclinaison, Main Verbal Use
    Posted by: "Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets" tsela...@gmail.com 
    Date: Tue Dec 18, 2012 3:46 pm ((PST))

Hi everyone!

After nine months of hard work, I finally managed to finish the next
instalment of my Moten grammar series! It is available here:
http://christophoronomicon.blogspot.nl/2012/12/moten-part-ix-surdeclinaison-main.html
.

As my previous blog post, it is devoted to surdéclinaison in Moten, but
this time it focusses on surdéclinaison as it applies to verbs rather than
to nouns. In this post I describe how surdéclinaison is used in Moten to
nominalise relative subclauses, and how this in turn allows one to form
noun subclauses (of the type: "I don't know _who it is_") and adverbial
subclauses (basically, anything of the type "when", "while", "because",
etc.). This post is also chock-full of example sentences. Most of them are
rather short, but they should still give you an idea of what the language
is like.

As usual, you can find my other posts about Moten here:
http://christophoronomicon.blogspot.nl/p/moten-language.html.

Notice that unlike what I announced last time, this is not the last
instalment of my Moten grammar devoted to surdéclinaison. I decided to move
the part about other patterns and isolated cases to their own blog post, as
they would otherwise have made this one far too long. This way, I managed
to keep this post's length to a manageable 3244 words.

As usual, comments are more than welcome, on the list here but also on my
blog itself. I'm curious to know what you all think of what I wrote, and
whether your conlangs have similar features. ANADEWs are also more than
welcome (well, as long as they are not from Basque! Those I know about
rather well myself :P ).

In any case, I hope you'll enjoy!
-- 
Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets.

http://christophoronomicon.blogspot.com/
http://www.christophoronomicon.nl/





Messages in this topic (1)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
2a. Re: respectively
    Posted by: "Ian Spolarich" mouton9...@gmail.com 
    Date: Tue Dec 18, 2012 4:01 pm ((PST))

>
> >I was wondering how other languages, natural or constructed handle matched
> lists.
>

In Adranik (CL), respectivity (?) is implied.
If the two lists are not intended to be matched, the speaker must separate
them into individual lists or clauses, such as "Jim took an apple, Rebecca
(took) a pear, etc. etc."

When you think about it, it's really rather silly *not* to match lists.





Messages in this topic (15)
________________________________________________________________________
2b. Re: respectively
    Posted by: "Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews" goldyemo...@gmail.com 
    Date: Tue Dec 18, 2012 4:36 pm ((PST))

If the  lists are meant to be matched, whatt do you mean? YOur examples 
sound like they match.
Emerging poet
Pen Name Mellissa Green
Budding novelist
tweet me



GreenNovelist

blog


www.theworldofyemora.wordpress.com


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Ian Spolarich" <mouton9...@gmail.com>
To: <conl...@listserv.brown.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2012 7:01 PM
Subject: Re: respectively


> >
>> >I was wondering how other languages, natural or constructed handle 
>> >matched
>> lists.
>>
>
> In Adranik (CL), respectivity (?) is implied.
> If the two lists are not intended to be matched, the speaker must separate
> them into individual lists or clauses, such as "Jim took an apple, Rebecca
> (took) a pear, etc. etc."
>
> When you think about it, it's really rather silly *not* to match lists. 





Messages in this topic (15)
________________________________________________________________________
2c. Re: respectively
    Posted by: "Gary Shannon" fizi...@gmail.com 
    Date: Tue Dec 18, 2012 4:40 pm ((PST))

John, Mary, and Ted (a list) wore red, green and blue (a list)
respectively (matched).

By matching the two lists we get:

John wore red
Mary wore green
Ted wore blue.

The shorthand way to write this is as a pair of matched lists using
the word "respectively":

John, Mary, and Ted wore red, green and blue respectively.

--gary

On Tue, Dec 18, 2012 at 4:36 PM, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
<goldyemo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> If the  lists are meant to be matched, whatt do you mean? YOur examples
> sound like they match.
> Emerging poet
> Pen Name Mellissa Green
> Budding novelist
> tweet me
>
>
>
> GreenNovelist
>
> blog
>
>
> www.theworldofyemora.wordpress.com
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ian Spolarich" <mouton9...@gmail.com>
> To: <conl...@listserv.brown.edu>
> Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2012 7:01 PM
> Subject: Re: respectively
>
>
>> >
>>>
>>> >I was wondering how other languages, natural or constructed handle
>>> > >matched
>>> lists.
>>>
>>
>> In Adranik (CL), respectivity (?) is implied.
>> If the two lists are not intended to be matched, the speaker must separate
>> them into individual lists or clauses, such as "Jim took an apple, Rebecca
>> (took) a pear, etc. etc."
>>
>> When you think about it, it's really rather silly *not* to match lists.





Messages in this topic (15)
________________________________________________________________________
2d. Re: respectively
    Posted by: "Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews" goldyemo...@gmail.com 
    Date: Tue Dec 18, 2012 4:43 pm ((PST))

I'll come up wit one or Yardish, and send it through.
Emerging poet
Pen Name Mellissa Green
Budding novelist
tweet me



GreenNovelist

blog


www.theworldofyemora.wordpress.com


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Gary Shannon" <fizi...@gmail.com>
To: <conl...@listserv.brown.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2012 7:40 PM
Subject: Re: respectively


> John, Mary, and Ted (a list) wore red, green and blue (a list)
> respectively (matched).
>
> By matching the two lists we get:
>
> John wore red
> Mary wore green
> Ted wore blue.
>
> The shorthand way to write this is as a pair of matched lists using
> the word "respectively":
>
> John, Mary, and Ted wore red, green and blue respectively.
>
> --gary
>
> On Tue, Dec 18, 2012 at 4:36 PM, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
> <goldyemo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> If the  lists are meant to be matched, whatt do you mean? YOur examples
>> sound like they match.
>> Emerging poet
>> Pen Name Mellissa Green
>> Budding novelist
>> tweet me
>>
>>
>>
>> GreenNovelist
>>
>> blog
>>
>>
>> www.theworldofyemora.wordpress.com
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ian Spolarich" <mouton9...@gmail.com>
>> To: <conl...@listserv.brown.edu>
>> Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2012 7:01 PM
>> Subject: Re: respectively
>>
>>
>>> >
>>>>
>>>> >I was wondering how other languages, natural or constructed handle
>>>> > >matched
>>>> lists.
>>>>
>>>
>>> In Adranik (CL), respectivity (?) is implied.
>>> If the two lists are not intended to be matched, the speaker must 
>>> separate
>>> them into individual lists or clauses, such as "Jim took an apple, 
>>> Rebecca
>>> (took) a pear, etc. etc."
>>>
>>> When you think about it, it's really rather silly *not* to match lists. 





Messages in this topic (15)
________________________________________________________________________
2e. Re: respectively
    Posted by: "Charles W Brickner" tepeyach...@embarqmail.com 
    Date: Tue Dec 18, 2012 5:13 pm ((PST))

-----Original Message-----
From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:conl...@listserv.brown.edu] On
Behalf Of Matthew Turnbull

I was wondering how other languages, natural or constructed handle matched
lists. In English they seem to be handled by the word respectively.
=================================
Senjecas makes an adverb out of the adjective 





Messages in this topic (15)
________________________________________________________________________
2f. Re: respectively
    Posted by: "Charles W Brickner" tepeyach...@embarqmail.com 
    Date: Tue Dec 18, 2012 5:15 pm ((PST))

-----Original Message-----
From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:conl...@listserv.brown.edu] On Behalf 
Of Matthew Turnbull

I was wondering how other languages, natural or constructed handle matched 
lists. In English they seem to be handled by the word respectively.
===============================
Senjecas makes an adverb out of the adjective 'sèņus', each, creating the 
adverb 





Messages in this topic (15)
________________________________________________________________________
2g. Re: respectively
    Posted by: "Charles W Brickner" tepeyach...@embarqmail.com 
    Date: Tue Dec 18, 2012 5:19 pm ((PST))

-----Original Message-----
From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:conl...@listserv.brown.edu] On Behalf 
Of Matthew Turnbull

I was wondering how other languages, natural or constructed handle matched 
lists. In English they seem to be handled by the word respectively.
====================================
Third times a charm!

Senjecas makes an adverb out of the adjective 'sèņus', creating the adverb 





Messages in this topic (15)
________________________________________________________________________
2h. Re: respectively
    Posted by: "Roger Mills" romi...@yahoo.com 
    Date: Tue Dec 18, 2012 7:05 pm ((PST))

I'd been trying to remember how Indonesian handled this, and finally had to go 
to an online dictionary, as I was coming up with the wrong words.

It's _masing-masing_ which also means 'each'; I guess that's how I came up with 
Kash liya 'other', liya-liya 'each other; respectively' but I think the def. 
needs to be revised/tightened up. "Each other" would be preverbal-- liya-liya 
itotola 'they kissed each other', while "respectively" would follow a list-- 
çenji i erek itotola mina i siti liya-liya 'Shenji and Erek kissed Mina and 
Siti resp.'

_liya-liyani_ means 'one after the other' or 'in turn', so çenji yatotola erek, 
mina, siti liya-liyani' 'Shenji kissed Erek, Mina and Siti one after the 
other/in turn.' Does that make sense?

I suspect I haven't dealt with this in Gwr or Prevli........;-((((





Messages in this topic (15)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
3a. Fa la la la la, la la la la!
    Posted by: "Puey McCleary" pueymccle...@gmail.com 
    Date: Tue Dec 18, 2012 4:14 pm ((PST))

                As some of you may know, this year the theme for my Holiday
Cards was Christmas Carols.  Since we’re just a sennight or so before
Christmas, I wanted to point out this place that has “Silent Night”
translated into lots of different languages, including imaginary ones!

http://silentnight.web.za/translate/

                Also, this site, which has many Christmas Carols in
Esperanto!

http://www.reocities.com/cigneto/thcind/xmas-en.html

                Here are a few of the carols that have brought me a bit of
joy:

##

Levitil meual hloweht-jo (TEONAHT, by Sally Caves)



Levitil meual hloweht-jo,

Rollyza l'ilvaz, nissilba poto;

Ynnehil Marua la tamol tso ke.

Hwendlwet hloweht tsob myeeht edrime.

Admy eldrimeden edrim'f!
Edrim'f cel eldrimeddhe!


Silent and blessed night,
bright is the night sky, all is silent.
Behold Mary, we see her child,
Blessed little baby in a soft sleep.
Sleep among the angels.
Sleep among the host of angels.

##

Neit stilik (VOLAPÜK)
Taken from Sirkülapenäd, Volapük-language magazine (December, 1996)

Neit stilik, vo saludik
Valöpo stil e lit
Zü jivirgan, mot e cil
Cil saluda, mükäla dil
Sliporös in püd sülik.

Neit stilik, vo saludik
Galedans dredälik
Sülanas logoms glori
Liloms Sülanefa stili
Kristus, Sanal, pemotom.

Neit stilik, vo saludik
Son Goda, lelöfik
Stralas logoda ora lit
Dajonons primi sava it
O Yesus, motamü or.

##

                I’m not sure that the Lojban version is meant to be sung to
the melody that I know.  And I’m a little sad that the Klingon version
doesn’t rhyme, considering that the Klingon Hamlet rhymes all over the
place.

                I really like the sound of the Esperanto version of “Jingle
Bells.”  I’m sure that song sounds fun in any language:



Glitante sur la neĝ' malantaŭ sol-ĉeval'

Rapide iras ni sur kampo kaj en val';

Sur la ĉevala vost' gajigas tintilar';

Glitrajdo kaj kantado estas ĝojo sen kompar'.



(Ho!) Tintilar', tintilar', tintu sur la voj';

Rajdi en glitveturil', ho kia granda ĝoj-o!

Tintilar', tintilar', tintu sur la voj';

Rajdi en glitveturil', ho kia granda ĝoj'.



Semajnon antaŭ nun glitrajdi iris ni,

Fraŭlino Fanjo Brajt kaj, tutapude, mi.

Sed nia ĉevalaĉon trafis malfeliĉ':

Ĝi tiris nin sur neĝ-montet' kaj sekvis renversiĝ'!



(Ho!) Tintilar', tintilar', tintu sur la voj';

Rajdi en glitveturil', ho kia granda ĝoj-o!

Tintilar', tintilar', tintu sur la voj';

Rajdi en glitveturil', ho kia granda ĝoj'.



                Enjoy!





Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
3b. Re: Fa la la la la, la la la la!
    Posted by: "Patrick Dunn" pwd...@gmail.com 
    Date: Tue Dec 18, 2012 4:18 pm ((PST))

I  have yet to send my cards, because of finals and the like, but as
they'll be written in Xenic they are automatically carols when "spoken"
aloud.  I'll see if I can share them when I get them sent out.


On Tue, Dec 18, 2012 at 6:14 PM, Puey McCleary <pueymccle...@gmail.com>wrote:

>                 As some of you may know, this year the theme for my Holiday
> Cards was Christmas Carols.  Since we’re just a sennight or so before
> Christmas, I wanted to point out this place that has “Silent Night”
> translated into lots of different languages, including imaginary ones!
>
> http://silentnight.web.za/translate/
>
>                 Also, this site, which has many Christmas Carols in
> Esperanto!
>
> http://www.reocities.com/cigneto/thcind/xmas-en.html
>
>                 Here are a few of the carols that have brought me a bit of
> joy:
>
> ##
>
> Levitil meual hloweht-jo (TEONAHT, by Sally Caves)
>
>
>
> Levitil meual hloweht-jo,
>
> Rollyza l'ilvaz, nissilba poto;
>
> Ynnehil Marua la tamol tso ke.
>
> Hwendlwet hloweht tsob myeeht edrime.
>
> Admy eldrimeden edrim'f!
> Edrim'f cel eldrimeddhe!
>
>
> Silent and blessed night,
> bright is the night sky, all is silent.
> Behold Mary, we see her child,
> Blessed little baby in a soft sleep.
> Sleep among the angels.
> Sleep among the host of angels.
>
> ##
>
> Neit stilik (VOLAPÜK)
> Taken from Sirkülapenäd, Volapük-language magazine (December, 1996)
>
> Neit stilik, vo saludik
> Valöpo stil e lit
> Zü jivirgan, mot e cil
> Cil saluda, mükäla dil
> Sliporös in püd sülik.
>
> Neit stilik, vo saludik
> Galedans dredälik
> Sülanas logoms glori
> Liloms Sülanefa stili
> Kristus, Sanal, pemotom.
>
> Neit stilik, vo saludik
> Son Goda, lelöfik
> Stralas logoda ora lit
> Dajonons primi sava it
> O Yesus, motamü or.
>
> ##
>
>                 I’m not sure that the Lojban version is meant to be sung to
> the melody that I know.  And I’m a little sad that the Klingon version
> doesn’t rhyme, considering that the Klingon Hamlet rhymes all over the
> place.
>
>                 I really like the sound of the Esperanto version of “Jingle
> Bells.”  I’m sure that song sounds fun in any language:
>
>
>
> Glitante sur la neĝ' malantaŭ sol-ĉeval'
>
> Rapide iras ni sur kampo kaj en val';
>
> Sur la ĉevala vost' gajigas tintilar';
>
> Glitrajdo kaj kantado estas ĝojo sen kompar'.
>
>
>
> (Ho!) Tintilar', tintilar', tintu sur la voj';
>
> Rajdi en glitveturil', ho kia granda ĝoj-o!
>
> Tintilar', tintilar', tintu sur la voj';
>
> Rajdi en glitveturil', ho kia granda ĝoj'.
>
>
>
> Semajnon antaŭ nun glitrajdi iris ni,
>
> Fraŭlino Fanjo Brajt kaj, tutapude, mi.
>
> Sed nia ĉevalaĉon trafis malfeliĉ':
>
> Ĝi tiris nin sur neĝ-montet' kaj sekvis renversiĝ'!
>
>
>
> (Ho!) Tintilar', tintilar', tintu sur la voj';
>
> Rajdi en glitveturil', ho kia granda ĝoj-o!
>
> Tintilar', tintilar', tintu sur la voj';
>
> Rajdi en glitveturil', ho kia granda ĝoj'.
>
>
>
>                 Enjoy!
>



-- 
Second Person, a chapbook of poetry by Patrick Dunn, is now available for
order from Finishing Line
Press<http://www.finishinglinepress.com/NewReleasesandForthcomingTitles.htm>
and
Amazon<http://www.amazon.com/Second-Person-Patrick-Dunn/dp/1599249065/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1324342341&sr=8-2>.





Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
4a. Re: New Yorker magazine article on Ithkuil and conlanging
    Posted by: "John Q" jquijad...@gmail.com 
    Date: Tue Dec 18, 2012 4:31 pm ((PST))

Stevo wrote:
Reading the article prompted me to buy a Lulu copy of both Ithkuil and
Beyond Antimony.

What, though, is the justification for Ithkuil's centenary numerical
system? What failing is it attempting to correct?

stevo
__________________________________________________________


Thanks for ordering copies of the books, I appreciate it.

As for the base-100 numbering system, it was to allow the written and spoken 
forms of numbers to (hopefully) be more compact compared to most natural 
languages.

--John Q.





Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________
4b. Re: New Yorker magazine article on Ithkuil and conlanging
    Posted by: "Logan Kearsley" chronosur...@gmail.com 
    Date: Tue Dec 18, 2012 4:56 pm ((PST))

On 14 December 2012 23:56, John Q <jquijad...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hello all:
>
> Way back in April, 2011, I announced in a post within the “Artlangs and 
> Engelangs” thread that a journalist I met at LCC2 had talked me into visiting 
> the Ithkuil study group in Kiev, Ukraine that I had been told about the year 
> previously while I was at the conference in Kalmykia that some of you may 
> remember.
>
> Anyway, to update:  I made the trip to Kiev in May 2011 accompanied by the 
> journalist in question (Joshua Foer, author of last year’s best-selling 
> non-fiction book “Moonwalking with Einstein”).  We spent four days with the 
> group of psychonetics students there who are formally studying my conlang 
> Ithkuil.  Dr. Oleg Bakhtiyarov, the leader of the psychoneticists was also in 
> attendance (he is the person responsible for my original trip to the Russian 
> Republic of Kalmykia back in July 2010).
>
> The Kiev trip was a fascinating experience – and the article about it that 
> Joshua has taken well over a year to write will be appearing in the December 
> 24th issue of the New Yorker magazine (available on U.S. newsstands and 
> online at newyorker.com this coming Monday, December 17th).  I’ve not yet 
> seen the article myself, but I believe it contains a section about conlanging 
> in general that mentions several other conlangs.
>
> As readers of the article will discover, Joshua did follow-up investigative 
> work on these psychoneticists to get to the bottom of what they’re really up 
> to.  Apparently there’s a lot more than meets the eye to the whole 
> psychonetics thing and their interest in Ithkuil -- in ways that are quite 
> ominous and of which I had been completely unaware.
>
> Should be an enjoyable read!

It was! Probably the best popular-press article on a conlang I've ever
seen. The whole psychonetics thing reminded me of the "number as
cognitive technology" thing that came from studying Piraha, although I
get the impression that their idea of "cognitive technology" may not
be quite the same. Still, I think the general idea of trying to
invent/discover new cognitive technologies in the "number as cognitive
technology" sense is a good one.

On that note, I feel like there's a little of the Ithkuil philosophy
in Rick Morneau's decomposition of verbal semantics, and that does
constitute a form of cognitive technology; even if it's not nearly as
extensive as in Ithkuil, having a regular derivational system is a
good way to guide one's thoughts into new areas of semantic space,
which is especially helpful for conlangers trying to avoid a relex.

It also reminded me of Blissymbolics- someone going and using your
language in ways you hadn't imagined/intended- so I was glad to find
that that connection was not missed in the article. Although, unlike
Charles Bliss, I think you're on the sane side the divide.

-l.

P.S. "ašţal" is my new favorite word. :)





Messages in this topic (9)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
5a. Re: contrafactual morphosyntax
    Posted by: "Anthony Miles" mamercu...@gmail.com 
    Date: Tue Dec 18, 2012 5:15 pm ((PST))

In Siye the sentence "If I were you, I wouldn't do that" is "le pepu 
lekimpukimesum, le eki me elenupumusu." The -sum ... -su marks "if ... then". 
Since -su indicates "then" in an "if ... then" construction, the more 
explicitly counterfactual "elenumekusu" is probably used to intensify the 
clause. The sentent "If I were you, I would not have done that" changes 
"elenupumusu" to "elekepunusu" due to a suppletive verb (nu > ke) and a change 
from imperfective aspect to perfective aspect (-m- > -n-). 





Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________
5b. Re: contrafactual morphosyntax
    Posted by: "Ian Spolarich" mouton9...@gmail.com 
    Date: Tue Dec 18, 2012 7:08 pm ((PST))

>
> How do you handle contrary-to-fact conditions and conclusions in your
> conlang(s), such as "If I were you, I wouldn't do that"?
>
Well, Adranik has a conditional mood for "if-then" statements:

Ge gez né kän ge sla ećad.
/jɛ jɛz nej ken jɛ slɑ 'ɛcɑd/
1sg.nom not that.sg do-1sg.npst 1sg.nom 2sg.acc 1sg.npst-conditional.npst.sg
(lit.) I that wouldn't do, I you am.
"I wouldn't do that, if I were you."

Adranik places the "then" statement before the "if" in a sentence. So it
basically uses a conditional plus a negative clause.

I'm not sure if that was exactly what you asked for, though.





Messages in this topic (5)





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