There are 12 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. Re: respectively
From: Padraic Brown
2a. USAGE: French what does "n'ignore pas non plus" mean?
From: BPJ
2b. Re: USAGE: French what does "n'ignore pas non plus" mean?
From: René Uittenbogaard
2c. Re: USAGE: French what does "n'ignore pas non plus" mean?
From: Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets
2d. Re: USAGE: French what does "n'ignore pas non plus" mean?
From: René Uittenbogaard
2e. Re: USAGE: French what does "n'ignore pas non plus" mean?
From: Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets
2f. Re: USAGE: French what does "n'ignore pas non plus" mean?
From: BPJ
2g. Re: USAGE: French what does "n'ignore pas non plus" mean?
From: Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets
2h. Re: USAGE: French what does "n'ignore pas non plus" mean?
From: Mathieu Roy
3a. Re: Conlang altitude record
From: Daniel Bowman
4a. Re: contrafactual morphosyntax
From: Roger Mills
4b. Re: contrafactual morphosyntax
From: Gary Shannon
Messages
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1a. Re: respectively
Posted by: "Padraic Brown" elemti...@yahoo.com
Date: Tue Dec 18, 2012 8:07 pm ((PST))
--- Matthew Turnbull wrote:
> I was wondering how other languages, natural or constructed handle matched
> lists. In English they seem to be handled by the word respectively.
In the more poetic or higher prose registers (you know, flowery language)
of Rumellian, they handle these matched lists by the simple
versijuxtaposition of the two lists in question:
Petrec Poulec Mariec mercrevosenti maccemec poumemec peremec.
At first read, the uninitiated will treat this as "Peter, Paul and Mary
bought mangoes, apples and pears (respectively). In actuality, Peter bought the
pears, Paul bought the apples and Mary bought the mangoes.
So in other words, the hearer must recompose the sentence in his mind from
the outside in: (A (B (C + C1) B1) A1) if you take my meaning.
They do this kind of winding dance with whole long sentences, subordinate
clauses and the component parts of clauses as well; and generally, the
sentence following will reverse the pattern:
Petrec Poulec Mariec mercrevosenti maccemec poumemec peremec attanc
tperemec tpoumemec tmaccemec edadvosenti cet Marccedec cet Premedec cet
Peinemec.
So now the two lists of fruits, although in content identical, are now
reversed in order: Peter still bought the pears, but they now come first
and are given to Payne, who comes last in the list of recipients.
Sadly, there's no way to keep track of the shifting movement of the dance
morphologically. I guess you just have to be exposed to the conventions
of the recitational art of the language.
Padraic
Messages in this topic (16)
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2a. USAGE: French what does "n'ignore pas non plus" mean?
Posted by: "BPJ" b...@melroch.se
Date: Wed Dec 19, 2012 3:24 am ((PST))
What does (written) French "n'ignore pas non plus" mean?
I guess it means 'doesn't ignore either', but what's the
"non" doing there?
/bpj
Messages in this topic (8)
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2b. Re: USAGE: French what does "n'ignore pas non plus" mean?
Posted by: "René Uittenbogaard" ruitt...@gmail.com
Date: Wed Dec 19, 2012 3:33 am ((PST))
It's part of the "either" construction. IIRC:
Je ne fume pas = I don't smoke
Je ne fume plus = I don't smoke any more
Je ne fume pas plus = I don't smoke *more* (than before)
Je ne fume pas non plus = I don't smoke either.
René
2012/12/19 BPJ <b...@melroch.se>:
> What does (written) French "n'ignore pas non plus" mean?
> I guess it means 'doesn't ignore either', but what's the
> "non" doing there?
>
> /bpj
Messages in this topic (8)
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2c. Re: USAGE: French what does "n'ignore pas non plus" mean?
Posted by: "Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets" tsela...@gmail.com
Date: Wed Dec 19, 2012 3:38 am ((PST))
On 19 December 2012 12:24, BPJ <b...@melroch.se> wrote:
> What does (written) French "n'ignore pas non plus" mean?
> I guess it means 'doesn't ignore either', but what's the
> "non" doing there?
>
>
Eh, aren't you forgetting something? I can't seem to see a subject in that
bit :) .
Anyway, the expression is indeed: negative verb + "non plus", meaning
"not... either". "Non" is just part of the expression, as René correctly
writes. Just treat "non plus" as a single entity, equivalent to "either" in
negative sentences.
As René correctly writes, omitting "non" here would result in a completely
different meaning.
--
Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets.
http://christophoronomicon.blogspot.com/
http://www.christophoronomicon.nl/
Messages in this topic (8)
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2d. Re: USAGE: French what does "n'ignore pas non plus" mean?
Posted by: "René Uittenbogaard" ruitt...@gmail.com
Date: Wed Dec 19, 2012 4:15 am ((PST))
So "non plus" can be used with other types of negations?
Je n'ai jamais fumé non plus = I have never smoked either ?
Je ne vois personne non plus = I don't see anyone either ?
René
2012/12/19 Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets <tsela...@gmail.com>:
> On 19 December 2012 12:24, BPJ <b...@melroch.se> wrote:
>
>> What does (written) French "n'ignore pas non plus" mean?
>> I guess it means 'doesn't ignore either', but what's the
>> "non" doing there?
>>
>>
> Eh, aren't you forgetting something? I can't seem to see a subject in that
> bit :) .
>
> Anyway, the expression is indeed: negative verb + "non plus", meaning
> "not... either". "Non" is just part of the expression, as René correctly
> writes. Just treat "non plus" as a single entity, equivalent to "either" in
> negative sentences.
>
> As René correctly writes, omitting "non" here would result in a completely
> different meaning.
> --
> Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets.
>
> http://christophoronomicon.blogspot.com/
> http://www.christophoronomicon.nl/
Messages in this topic (8)
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2e. Re: USAGE: French what does "n'ignore pas non plus" mean?
Posted by: "Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets" tsela...@gmail.com
Date: Wed Dec 19, 2012 5:10 am ((PST))
On 19 December 2012 13:15, René Uittenbogaard <ruitt...@gmail.com> wrote:
> So "non plus" can be used with other types of negations?
>
> Je n'ai jamais fumé non plus = I have never smoked either ?
> Je ne vois personne non plus = I don't see anyone either ?
>
> René
>
>
Yes, they can, although not exactly as you wrote above. Take the following
exchange:
– J'ai jamais fumé.
– J'ai jamais fumé moi non plus.
i.e.:
"I've never smoked."
"I've never smoked either."
This is perfectly correct French, although most usually the reply will
simply be "moi non plus" (without repeating the full sentence). Adding
"moi" here is necessary, otherwise the sentence will feel stilted, although
it doesn't feel grammatically incorrect.
This awkwardness is shared with the affirmative equivalent of "non plus":
"aussi". Saying "je vois aussi quelqu'un" ("I see someone too") feels just
as stilted as the examples you gave. A better sentence would be "je vois
quelqu'un moi aussi", or more simply "moi aussi".
The issue is more stylistic, I think, than grammatical. Your sentences are
perfectly correct. They just feel a bit awkward, and adding the emphatic
personal pronoun somehow removes that awkwardness.
--
Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets.
http://christophoronomicon.blogspot.com/
http://www.christophoronomicon.nl/
Messages in this topic (8)
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2f. Re: USAGE: French what does "n'ignore pas non plus" mean?
Posted by: "BPJ" b...@melroch.se
Date: Wed Dec 19, 2012 5:34 am ((PST))
On 2012-12-19 12:37, Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets wrote:
> Just treat "non plus" as a single entity, equivalent to "either" in
> negative sentences.
>
OK. Thanks to both of you, Christophe and René!
BTW is the construction current in spoken French as well?
(Hope I'm not opening a can of worms here... ;-)
/bpj
Messages in this topic (8)
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2g. Re: USAGE: French what does "n'ignore pas non plus" mean?
Posted by: "Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets" tsela...@gmail.com
Date: Wed Dec 19, 2012 5:54 am ((PST))
On 19 December 2012 14:34, BPJ <b...@melroch.se> wrote:
> On 2012-12-19 12:37, Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets wrote:
>
>> Just treat "non plus" as a single entity, equivalent to "either" in
>> negative sentences.
>>
>>
> OK. Thanks to both of you, Christophe and René!
>
> BTW is the construction current in spoken French as well?
> (Hope I'm not opening a can of worms here... ;-)
>
>
No can of worms here :) . The construction is used in Spoken French as
well, but only the version with the emphatic pronoun ("moi", "toi", "lui",
"elle", etc.) in front of "non plus".
--
Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets.
http://christophoronomicon.blogspot.com/
http://www.christophoronomicon.nl/
Messages in this topic (8)
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2h. Re: USAGE: French what does "n'ignore pas non plus" mean?
Posted by: "Mathieu Roy" mathieu.roy...@gmail.com
Date: Wed Dec 19, 2012 6:39 am ((PST))
One could say "Je n'ai jamais fumé non plus." in the context where someone
would have implied you do. For example, if one says "Si tu es vraiment contre
la cigarette, il faudrait que tu le démontres." (If you're really against
cigarette, you have to show it.) Then the other could reply "Je ne fume pas non
plus.". The "non plus" imply something like "in contrary of what you
implied/seemed to think", but I'm now sure if there are a good translation for
it in English. One could say "That's why I don't smoke.", but that doesn't keep
the exact meaning.
But I agree with everything that have been said previously. When using the "moi
non plus" construction, it is because it has just been mentioned that another
person doesn't or other people don’t; but it doesn't have to be the speaker; it
could be for example: A. Dieu ne fume pas. B. Moi non plus. (A. God doesn't
smoke. B. Me neither.).
-Mat
-----Message d'origine-----
De : Constructed Languages List [mailto:conl...@listserv.brown.edu] De la part
de Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets
Envoyé : mercredi 19 décembre 2012 14:10
À : conl...@listserv.brown.edu
Objet : Re: USAGE: French what does "n'ignore pas non plus" mean?
On 19 December 2012 13:15, René Uittenbogaard <ruitt...@gmail.com> wrote:
> So "non plus" can be used with other types of negations?
>
> Je n'ai jamais fumé non plus = I have never smoked either ?
> Je ne vois personne non plus = I don't see anyone either ?
>
> René
>
>
Yes, they can, although not exactly as you wrote above. Take the following
exchange:
– J'ai jamais fumé.
– J'ai jamais fumé moi non plus.
i.e.:
"I've never smoked."
"I've never smoked either."
This is perfectly correct French, although most usually the reply will
simply be "moi non plus" (without repeating the full sentence). Adding
"moi" here is necessary, otherwise the sentence will feel stilted, although
it doesn't feel grammatically incorrect.
This awkwardness is shared with the affirmative equivalent of "non plus":
"aussi". Saying "je vois aussi quelqu'un" ("I see someone too") feels just
as stilted as the examples you gave. A better sentence would be "je vois
quelqu'un moi aussi", or more simply "moi aussi".
The issue is more stylistic, I think, than grammatical. Your sentences are
perfectly correct. They just feel a bit awkward, and adding the emphatic
personal pronoun somehow removes that awkwardness.
--
Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets.
http://christophoronomicon.blogspot.com/
http://www.christophoronomicon.nl/
Messages in this topic (8)
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3a. Re: Conlang altitude record
Posted by: "Daniel Bowman" danny.c.bow...@gmail.com
Date: Wed Dec 19, 2012 5:49 am ((PST))
To those of you who have submitted a conlang for my high altitude balloon
(and anyone else who's interested):
We will be tentatively launching on December 23rd. I have set up a blog
and a Facebook page for the flight. The following is a message I'm sending
out to increase publicity of the launch (and therefore increase the chances
the payload will be recovered):
Hello everyone,
In less than a week, we are going to attempt a launch of a 43 ft solar
powered hot air balloon from Socorro, New Mexico. This balloon will go
over 10 miles high and will be carrying video and still cameras, as well as
a GPS logging system that tells us exactly where it is. However, it will
also fly hundreds of miles laterally, probably coming down in Texas or
perhaps even farther (Nebraska?).
If we can get this to fly, it will be spectacular. If we can get the
payload back, it will be even cooler. To my knowledge, no one has flown
and recovered a video camera on a solar balloon before (at least, no one's
put it on youtube). We'd be the first, and that would be neat.
So we're trying an experiment. We're contacting as many people as we can
and directing them to our blog
http://bovineaerospace.wordpress.com/<https://bl2prd0310.outlook.com/owa/redir.aspx?C=aQ550-W3LECpV5Y32pAJmbJ4E_aDsc8Iz7VrNAFPQJysA0keiqFPm_Y_G4yNknE09FkpQErTGSM.&URL=http%3a%2f%2fbovineaerospace.wordpress.com%2f>and
our Facebook page
https://www.facebook.com/BovineAerospace<https://bl2prd0310.outlook.com/owa/redir.aspx?C=aQ550-W3LECpV5Y32pAJmbJ4E_aDsc8Iz7VrNAFPQJysA0keiqFPm_Y_G4yNknE09FkpQErTGSM.&URL=https%3a%2f%2fwww.facebook.com%2fBovineAerospace>
.
The idea is, if we get enough people watching this balloon fly, then maybe
they'll know someone near where the balloon comes down. If so, that person
can recover the payload and ship it back to us using the prepaid shipping
label we'll include with the balloon. It's like a 6 degrees of separation
thing-the world is connected through social networks, and theoretically we
can reach anyone, anywhere...and have them participate in this test flight.
So please visit our blog, like us on Facebook, and forward this message to
everyone you know. Keep an eye on the blog, because as soon as the
balloon's in the air I will include the tracking information. We will
attempt a launch on *December 23rd at dawn *if the weather holds.
Blog:
http://bovineaerospace.wordpress.com/<https://bl2prd0310.outlook.com/owa/redir.aspx?C=aQ550-W3LECpV5Y32pAJmbJ4E_aDsc8Iz7VrNAFPQJysA0keiqFPm_Y_G4yNknE09FkpQErTGSM.&URL=http%3a%2f%2fbovineaerospace.wordpress.com%2f>
Facebook:
https://www.facebook.com/BovineAerospace<https://bl2prd0310.outlook.com/owa/redir.aspx?C=aQ550-W3LECpV5Y32pAJmbJ4E_aDsc8Iz7VrNAFPQJysA0keiqFPm_Y_G4yNknE09FkpQErTGSM.&URL=https%3a%2f%2fwww.facebook.com%2fBovineAerospace>
Thanks,
Danny
2012/12/8 Daniel Bowman <danny.c.bow...@gmail.com>
> I bet some astronaut's taken Star Trek along for the ride, or maybe Lord
> of the Rings, so I can't really say what the high altitude record is for a
> conlang.
> However, I can say that my conlang Angosey's been about 40,000 ft up (13
> km or so) in a jet plane.
> I would like to smash this record, and send Angosey up to 50,000+ ft,
> maybe even over 100,000 ft (30 KM!) in a balloon I'm going to launch this
> winter.
>
> If you would like to send your conlang into a furious blue yonder as well,
> send a translation of one (or both, or all three) of the following phrases
> to danny.c.bow...@gmail.com:
>
> The sky is not our limit
>
> or
>
> What comes up must surely come down
>
> or
>
> into a furious blue yonder
>
> Or send me your own benediction (Lord knows flying balloons is a risky
> business and they can all use some help).
>
> I'll compile the phrases and put them in the payload of my balloon.
>
> The gory details:
>
> I will either be launching a helium balloon in the style of last winter's
> launch:
>
> https://glossarch.wordpress.com/2012/07/07/17-miles-above-new-mexico-a-high-altitude-balloon-flight-into-near-space/
>
> If this works correctly I should get an altitude of 114,000 ft, but I am
> using a different model balloon so I am not sure what altitude I will reach.
>
> Or since there is a helium shortage, I may convert my balloon to solar,
> this one being twice the size of my previous big launch:
>
> https://glossarch.wordpress.com/2012/05/26/jake-iii-the-successful-launch-of-a-20-ft-solar-balloon/
>
> This will work better, but will not reach as high an altitude (50,000 to
> 70,000 ft, most likely).
>
> Danny
>
Messages in this topic (11)
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4a. Re: contrafactual morphosyntax
Posted by: "Roger Mills" romi...@yahoo.com
Date: Wed Dec 19, 2012 8:23 am ((PST))
In Kash, contrafactual sentences use _kendi......., kendi...._. roughly =
if.....then. The two clauses can't be reversed, as they can in Engl. and I
think other SAE languages. The verbs are in present tense:
kendi me hahanga, kendi te malolan
"if" me you-pay, "then" you I-protect
Best Engl: If you (should/would/were to) pay me, I would protect you.
There is no certainty ( in fact there's doubt) that either action will take
place.
The only other tense that's possible here is the pres.perfect, in both clauses:
kendi me mende hahanga, kendi te mende malolan
If you had paid me, I would have protected you.
In this case you can also start the protasis with _kendipun_ 'if only....' You
could say the protasis in isolation-- "kendipun te mende halolan...." If only
I'd protected you.... :" (implied: [kendi, then] something bad would not have
happened to you.)
A lot of people mistakenly use plain old "pun" 'if', with future tense in both
clauses, but definitely in the apodosis:
pun me hahanga(to), te malolando
If you (will) pay me, I will protect you.
In this case, the two clauses can be reversed: te malolando pun me hahanga(to).
But in this case, there is a certain definiteness, and an actual promise to
protect you, hence the future tense in the apodosis. It's also a little bit
threatening...it's the sort of thing the neighborhood crime boss might say to a
shopkeeper, or a bully to his victim.
Even more brusque and threatening if he leaves out the "pun".
Prevli would use irrealis mode in the first case (conditional tense in both
clauses I think), indicative future tense in the second case, with the same
sense of commitment, but maybe not so threatening..........
Not at all sure about Gwr......we haven't gotten that far with the syntax... I
suspect they'd have to use a particle expressing doubt or something. WWCD?
(what would Chinese do?)
Messages in this topic (7)
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4b. Re: contrafactual morphosyntax
Posted by: "Gary Shannon" fizi...@gmail.com
Date: Wed Dec 19, 2012 8:56 am ((PST))
In my two most well-developed conlangs ai Basata and Txtana the word
"if" is a conjunction which connects two complete sentences and must
come between them: "I stay home IF the storm arrives." I tend to
simplification and would likely use the simple present tense to imply
counter-factuals: "I do not say that IF I am you." or possibly even "I
do not say that WHEN I am you." Or if I really wanted to make it clear
that I'm talking about hypotheticals I might invent a new conjunction
something like "I do not say such things WERE-IT-SO-THAT I am you."
but I would still use the present tense with it. (I prefer to avoid
needless proliferation of tenses.)
--gary
On Wed, Dec 19, 2012 at 8:23 AM, Roger Mills <romi...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> In Kash, contrafactual sentences use _kendi......., kendi...._. roughly =
> if.....then. The two clauses can't be reversed, as they can in Engl. and I
> think other SAE languages. The verbs are in present tense:
>
> kendi me hahanga, kendi te malolan
> "if" me you-pay, "then" you I-protect
> Best Engl: If you (should/would/were to) pay me, I would protect you.
> There is no certainty ( in fact there's doubt) that either action will take
> place.
Messages in this topic (7)
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