There are 9 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. Conlang music (was RE: Orthography congruous to pronunciation)
From: Mathieu Roy
1b. Re: Conlang music (was RE: Orthography congruous to pronunciation)
From: selpa'i
1c. Re: Conlang music (was RE: Orthography congruous to pronunciation)
From: Adam Walker
1d. Re: Conlang music (was RE: Orthography congruous to pronunciation)
From: Scott Hlad
1e. Re: Conlang music (was RE: Orthography congruous to pronunciation)
From: Patrick Dunn
2a. Re: single words for concepts for which other languages paraphrase
From: Roger Mills
3. Esperanto morphosemantics (was: Re: [CONLANG] So, about Ithkuil...)
From: Melroch
4a. Development of rhyming words
From: Scott Hlad
4b. Re: Development of rhyming words
From: Patrick Dunn
Messages
________________________________________________________________________
1a. Conlang music (was RE: Orthography congruous to pronunciation)
Posted by: "Mathieu Roy" [email protected]
Date: Tue Jan 22, 2013 4:05 pm ((PST))
Tim wrote:
<<This is something I regularly deal with as a singer of early music; when
my group sings a Latin motet or mass, we try to at least approximate the
pronunciation that would have been used in the time and place where it was
composed.>>
I was going to eventually ask you for conlang music; I think this is a good
opportunity.
(Tim) even if your music isn't in a conlang, I would also be interested to
hear some if you have something on the web, because I think it's a nice idea
to sing in ancient languages. :)
So I would be interested to know what are your favorite and the most popular
conlang songs.
For those interested, I've started to build a Youtube playlist that you can
access here:
http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLL6Iy2E-Y52stsLyT9SQqT5gZfm891jNM, so
if you have a youtube link for your recommended song that would be even
nicer :)
Right now I've only put the Lojban and Esperanto anthem, and another song in
Esperanto on the playlist.
-Mathieu
Messages in this topic (5)
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1b. Re: Conlang music (was RE: Orthography congruous to pronunciation)
Posted by: "selpa'i" [email protected]
Date: Tue Jan 22, 2013 4:14 pm ((PST))
la'o me. Mathieu Roy .me cusku di'e
> Right now I've only put the Lojban and Esperanto anthem, and another song in
> Esperanto on the playlist.
Note that the Lojban anthem in your playlist is not the "official" one,
but the ony composed by me and another Lojbanist. I don't think the old
one was ever put on youtube, probably because there only is a midi file
of it. Someone would need to orchestrate it properly first.
There is another Lojban song, called "crisa ditcu" ("summer time"), made
by guskant: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1Itg2ztXiQ
mu'o mi'e la selpa'i
Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________
1c. Re: Conlang music (was RE: Orthography congruous to pronunciation)
Posted by: "Adam Walker" [email protected]
Date: Tue Jan 22, 2013 4:35 pm ((PST))
There was a Klingon Opera, 'e', that was produced in the Netherlands a few
years back. And some vile vomitcore band in Latvia made "songs" out of
some of my texts way back. They have clips of some of the cuts from their
CDs (all of which seem to use at least some conlang material) on their
site. Either the band or one of the CDs was titled Nimfomaniac (with an I
and an F IIRC and random capitalization and maybe some hypens).
I wouldn't call them favorite, but they exist (and they owe me some Lettis).
All the Elven bits off the LOTR soundtracks are nice.
Adam
On Tue, Jan 22, 2013 at 6:05 PM, Mathieu Roy <[email protected]>wrote:
> Tim wrote:
> <<This is something I regularly deal with as a singer of early music; when
> my group sings a Latin motet or mass, we try to at least approximate the
> pronunciation that would have been used in the time and place where it was
> composed.>>
>
> I was going to eventually ask you for conlang music; I think this is a good
> opportunity.
>
> (Tim) even if your music isn't in a conlang, I would also be interested to
> hear some if you have something on the web, because I think it's a nice
> idea
> to sing in ancient languages. :)
>
> So I would be interested to know what are your favorite and the most
> popular
> conlang songs.
>
> For those interested, I've started to build a Youtube playlist that you can
> access here:
> http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLL6Iy2E-Y52stsLyT9SQqT5gZfm891jNM,
> so
> if you have a youtube link for your recommended song that would be even
> nicer :)
>
> Right now I've only put the Lojban and Esperanto anthem, and another song
> in
> Esperanto on the playlist.
>
> -Mathieu
>
Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________
1d. Re: Conlang music (was RE: Orthography congruous to pronunciation)
Posted by: "Scott Hlad" [email protected]
Date: Tue Jan 22, 2013 5:34 pm ((PST))
Conlang music is near and dear to my heart. I am going to lean heavily on it
for my newest conlang. In particular, I want to develop folk music and
children's music. My conlang, Regimonti, is no longer on line but I had
both a Christmas carol and a national anthem up there. The Christmas carol
was played on a conlang podcast.
It would be great to see more conlangers doing music.
Scotto
-----Original Message-----
From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Adam Walker
Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2013 5:34 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Conlang music (was RE: Orthography congruous to pronunciation)
There was a Klingon Opera, 'e', that was produced in the Netherlands a few
years back. And some vile vomitcore band in Latvia made "songs" out of some
of my texts way back. They have clips of some of the cuts from their CDs
(all of which seem to use at least some conlang material) on their site.
Either the band or one of the CDs was titled Nimfomaniac (with an I and an F
IIRC and random capitalization and maybe some hypens).
I wouldn't call them favorite, but they exist (and they owe me some Lettis).
All the Elven bits off the LOTR soundtracks are nice.
Adam
On Tue, Jan 22, 2013 at 6:05 PM, Mathieu Roy
<[email protected]>wrote:
> Tim wrote:
> <<This is something I regularly deal with as a singer of early music;
> when my group sings a Latin motet or mass, we try to at least
> approximate the pronunciation that would have been used in the time
> and place where it was composed.>>
>
> I was going to eventually ask you for conlang music; I think this is a
> good opportunity.
>
> (Tim) even if your music isn't in a conlang, I would also be
> interested to hear some if you have something on the web, because I
> think it's a nice idea to sing in ancient languages. :)
>
> So I would be interested to know what are your favorite and the most
> popular conlang songs.
>
> For those interested, I've started to build a Youtube playlist that
> you can access here:
> http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLL6Iy2E-Y52stsLyT9SQqT5gZfm891jN
> M,
> so
> if you have a youtube link for your recommended song that would be
> even nicer :)
>
> Right now I've only put the Lojban and Esperanto anthem, and another
> song in Esperanto on the playlist.
>
> -Mathieu
>
Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________
1e. Re: Conlang music (was RE: Orthography congruous to pronunciation)
Posted by: "Patrick Dunn" [email protected]
Date: Tue Jan 22, 2013 5:36 pm ((PST))
Teonaht has some wonderful music associated with it.
http://www.cavedreaming.com/teoreal.html
On Tue, Jan 22, 2013 at 7:34 PM, Scott Hlad <[email protected]> wrote:
> Conlang music is near and dear to my heart. I am going to lean heavily on
> it
> for my newest conlang. In particular, I want to develop folk music and
> children's music. My conlang, Regimonti, is no longer on line but I had
> both a Christmas carol and a national anthem up there. The Christmas carol
> was played on a conlang podcast.
> It would be great to see more conlangers doing music.
> Scotto
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:[email protected]] On
> Behalf Of Adam Walker
> Sent: Tuesday, January 22, 2013 5:34 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: Conlang music (was RE: Orthography congruous to pronunciation)
>
> There was a Klingon Opera, 'e', that was produced in the Netherlands a few
> years back. And some vile vomitcore band in Latvia made "songs" out of
> some
> of my texts way back. They have clips of some of the cuts from their CDs
> (all of which seem to use at least some conlang material) on their site.
> Either the band or one of the CDs was titled Nimfomaniac (with an I and an
> F
> IIRC and random capitalization and maybe some hypens).
>
> I wouldn't call them favorite, but they exist (and they owe me some
> Lettis).
>
> All the Elven bits off the LOTR soundtracks are nice.
>
> Adam
>
> On Tue, Jan 22, 2013 at 6:05 PM, Mathieu Roy
> <[email protected]>wrote:
>
> > Tim wrote:
> > <<This is something I regularly deal with as a singer of early music;
> > when my group sings a Latin motet or mass, we try to at least
> > approximate the pronunciation that would have been used in the time
> > and place where it was composed.>>
> >
> > I was going to eventually ask you for conlang music; I think this is a
> > good opportunity.
> >
> > (Tim) even if your music isn't in a conlang, I would also be
> > interested to hear some if you have something on the web, because I
> > think it's a nice idea to sing in ancient languages. :)
> >
> > So I would be interested to know what are your favorite and the most
> > popular conlang songs.
> >
> > For those interested, I've started to build a Youtube playlist that
> > you can access here:
> > http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLL6Iy2E-Y52stsLyT9SQqT5gZfm891jN
> > M,
> > so
> > if you have a youtube link for your recommended song that would be
> > even nicer :)
> >
> > Right now I've only put the Lojban and Esperanto anthem, and another
> > song in Esperanto on the playlist.
> >
> > -Mathieu
> >
>
--
Second Person, a chapbook of poetry by Patrick Dunn, is now available for
order from Finishing Line
Press<http://www.finishinglinepress.com/NewReleasesandForthcomingTitles.htm>
and
Amazon<http://www.amazon.com/Second-Person-Patrick-Dunn/dp/1599249065/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1324342341&sr=8-2>.
Messages in this topic (5)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
2a. Re: single words for concepts for which other languages paraphrase
Posted by: "Roger Mills" [email protected]
Date: Tue Jan 22, 2013 4:09 pm ((PST))
--- On Tue, 1/22/13, Jörg Rhiemeier <[email protected]> wrote:
How many of us have such words in our conlangs? In Old Albic,
I at least have _phanara_, an animate noun derived from the
verb _phana_ 'to shape' (hence also, _phanas_ 'a shape'), which
may be translated as 'gestalt' or 'morphic field'. A _phanara_
is an entity that governs the shape of a particular object by
guiding and informing the _phaneri_ of its parts. _Phaneri_
resonate with each other, especially ones of a similar kind,
and of course with those of the parts they inform.
The whole universe is a huge hierarchy of nested _phaneri_, up
to _Éa_ ('The One') which encloses and informs the entire
universe, and down to imperceptibly small elementary _phaneri_
that make up everything (and can be identified, from a modern
physics viewpoint, with the probability fields of fundamental
particles in quantum mechanics).
================================================
Very nice. Not dissimilar to Kash belief that something of the Creator resides
in all things in their world (hence their belief in the Spirits of things).
Not sure this is quite relevant, but some Kash "accidental" verb forms (with
/caka-/ prefix) might qualify, e.g. from tikas 'to see' we get cakatikas
basically "overcome with seeing"-- but with a dative (animate) subj. it means
to have a sudden understanding of something, a sudden insight; while with a
nominative subject it means 'to appear suddenly, to pop into view (esp. if
inopportunely)', and quite a few others that translate into Engl. phrases or
idioms.
You can have such nonce-forms as "cakacika" (cika (colloq.) = TV) 'someone who
watches altogether too much TV), or "caka+Number" to refer to someone obsessed
with that number
The soul (_nâra_) of a living being is also a _phanara_; magic
(_léachvaras_ 'spirit-work') operates by getting one's own soul
into resonance with the _phanara_ of a target and in-forming it
in order to achieve a particular event.
--
... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
http://www.joerg-rhiemeier.de/Conlang/index.html
"Bêsel asa Éam, a Éam atha cvanthal a cvanth atha Éamal." - SiM 1:1
Messages in this topic (11)
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________________________________________________________________________
3. Esperanto morphosemantics (was: Re: [CONLANG] So, about Ithkuil...)
Posted by: "Melroch" [email protected]
Date: Tue Jan 22, 2013 4:18 pm ((PST))
You are certainly more knowledgeable than me about what 'affixy'
peculiarities some affixes may retain, but then again all morphemes in all
languages do have their peculiarities which are built into their semantics.
It would be interesting to see how the (degree of) affixness of a given
morpheme correlates with such things as its frequency or whether it was
originally an affix or not, and how it covaries with various demographic
factors, not to speak of how it has evolved over time.
As for fuzziness of the derivation~subordination boundary I mean the fact
that you seem to be able to do more and different things by tacking on _-a_
than you can by adjectivization in most languages (certainly most European
languages). At any rate it can certainly function as a genitive would in
the Indoeuropean and Uralic languages I'm familiar with; in particular it
reminds me of the Finnish genitive which is often used where even Latin
would have an adjective. I think this is a function of the fact that the
meaning of the Esperanto _-a_ and the Finnish genitive is a rather general
'related to', while adjective-deriving affixes in the natlangs I'm familiar
with each have some specific even if vague or very wide semantics beyond a
mere 'related to' which they contribute to the derived adjective. English
zero-derived adjectives may in fact be an exception, but then it's not
always clear to me how that differs from compounding. I also think that
this is inharent in the fact that you have an affix which (a) must be
attached to every adjective and (b) can be used on its own to derive
adjectives from any stem without qualifying the semantic relation. You, I
would almost say inevitably, get semantics similar to the Finnish genitive.
The Esperanto _-e_ also goes beyond what adverb affixes like the Swedish
_-t_ or English _-ly_ do. It seems to me that a compound with _-e_ can
stand in for an entire adverbial phrase, which is very Sanskritesque.
I once did a sketch for a lang which intentionally had no distinction
between compounding, derivation and inflexion. E.g. you would use the same
morpheme as a plural suffix and as the root of 'many' and 'multiply'. It
was intended as a cross between a spooflang (on Quenya) and a gamelang, but
I couldn't resist indulging in some grammatico-semantic experimentation in
the name of ease of learning. If you are interested I may post a bit on it
when I'm at my computer again. It's 1 AM now and I'm going t try to sleep.
Den tisdagen den 22:e januari 2013 skrev Jim Henry:
> On Sun, Jan 20, 2013 at 2:07 PM, Melroch <[email protected] <javascript:;>>
> wrote:
> > Similarly the fact that modern spoken Esperanto has no clear
> > division between compounding and derivation or indeed between derivation
> > and subordination may be an example of such grammar reduction with an
> > efficiency gain.
>
> Could you expand on that?
>
> The distinction between roots and affixes seems to have been abandoned
> around the 1920s -- that's the earliest I know of when affixes start
> getting used as stand-alone words, or we see compounds built purely of
> "affixes" with no "roots". I can sort of see you would consider that
> a "grammar reduction" along the same lines as the limited subset of
> Sanskrit you describe; it simplifies the morphology if we don't need
> to distinguish between unlike types of morpheme (although it's not
> quite that simple; some of the original "affixes" are still arguably
> affixes, with special rules for use that aren't just an application of
> the general compounding rules). But I'm not sure what you mean by "no
> clear division between .... derivation and subordination".
>
> --
> Jim Henry
> http://www.pobox.com/~jimhenry/
> http://www.jimhenrymedicaltrust.org
>
Messages in this topic (1)
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4a. Development of rhyming words
Posted by: "Scott Hlad" [email protected]
Date: Tue Jan 22, 2013 5:27 pm ((PST))
Hello fellow conlangers,
Life has been exceptionally busy for me of late. Though not related to this
post, I am getting married in the early summer. I finally found the right
guy and I'm very happy and excited about it.
I was thinking recently about rhyming words. Here are some English examples
that rolled through my head:
bake; brake; cake; fake; hake; lake; make; rake; sake; take; wake
beat; bleat; feat; heat; meat; neat; peat; seat; teat; wheat
These words have no connection to each other that I can see yet we have
them. Simply change the beginning consonant(s) and you have an entirely
different word. How is it that we have so many words that rhyme like this?
How did they develop? This is of course not unique to English. I'd like to
be able to replicate this in my latest conlang.
How did this develop in the natlang world?
Scotto
Messages in this topic (2)
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4b. Re: Development of rhyming words
Posted by: "Patrick Dunn" [email protected]
Date: Tue Jan 22, 2013 5:33 pm ((PST))
Congratulations, Scott!
As far as rhyming words, they're a coincidental function of our
phonotactics. Just by chance, certain sounds and only certain sounds can
fall together in syllables, creating patterns we recognize as rhyme. It's
entirely coincidental, which makes it a valuable resource for poetry,
because one can use rhymes, as we do in English, to create startling and
unexpected connections between ideas.
BTW, while in my idiolect, "teat" does rhyme with "wheat," in others it
rhymes with "wit."
On Tue, Jan 22, 2013 at 7:27 PM, Scott Hlad <[email protected]> wrote:
> Hello fellow conlangers,
>
>
>
> Life has been exceptionally busy for me of late. Though not related to this
> post, I am getting married in the early summer. I finally found the right
> guy and I'm very happy and excited about it.
>
> I was thinking recently about rhyming words. Here are some English examples
> that rolled through my head:
>
> bake; brake; cake; fake; hake; lake; make; rake; sake; take; wake
> beat; bleat; feat; heat; meat; neat; peat; seat; teat; wheat
>
> These words have no connection to each other that I can see yet we have
> them. Simply change the beginning consonant(s) and you have an entirely
> different word. How is it that we have so many words that rhyme like this?
> How did they develop? This is of course not unique to English. I'd like to
> be able to replicate this in my latest conlang.
>
> How did this develop in the natlang world?
>
> Scotto
>
>
>
>
>
--
Second Person, a chapbook of poetry by Patrick Dunn, is now available for
order from Finishing Line
Press<http://www.finishinglinepress.com/NewReleasesandForthcomingTitles.htm>
and
Amazon<http://www.amazon.com/Second-Person-Patrick-Dunn/dp/1599249065/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1324342341&sr=8-2>.
Messages in this topic (2)
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