There are 15 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1.1. Re: On not perceiving (was: RE: Loglan[g] VS Natlang)
From: Adam Walker
1.2. Re: On not perceiving (was: RE: Loglan[g] VS Natlang)
From: Allison Swenson
1.3. Re: On not perceiving (was: RE: Loglan[g] VS Natlang)
From: Leonardo Castro
1.4. Re: On not perceiving (was: RE: Loglan[g] VS Natlang)
From: Jim Henry
1.5. Re: On not perceiving (was: RE: Loglan[g] VS Natlang)
From: Nikolay Ivankov
2a. Re: Esperanto morphosemantics (was: Re: [CONLANG] So, about Ithkuil.
From: David McCann
3a. Re: Conlang music (was RE: Orthography congruous to pronunciation)
From: Jörg Rhiemeier
3b. Re: Conlang music (was RE: Orthography congruous to pronunciation)
From: Adam Walker
3c. Re: Conlang music (was RE: Orthography congruous to pronunciation)
From: Garth Wallace
3d. Re: Conlang music (was RE: Orthography congruous to pronunciation)
From: Adam Walker
3e. Re: Conlang music (was RE: Orthography congruous to pronunciation)
From: Roger Mills
4. Vulgar Latin
From: S. Dana Johnson
5a. Re: to be cognate or not to be cognate
From: Roger Mills
5b. Re: to be cognate or not to be cognate
From: Alex Fink
5c. Re: to be cognate or not to be cognate
From: Charles W Brickner
Messages
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1.1. Re: On not perceiving (was: RE: Loglan[g] VS Natlang)
Posted by: "Adam Walker" [email protected]
Date: Thu Jan 24, 2013 8:11 am ((PST))
I once knew a Russian guy named Vladik. He was a music major, an
excellent pianist. He cloud put on the most convincing New York
accent, sounded like he was born in the Bronx! But when he was just
speaking, he had the "typical" Russian accent with odd vowels and
unneeded palatalizations and overly aspirated consonants. I never
quite understood that.
Adam
On 1/24/13, Logan Kearsley <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 24 January 2013 08:44, Charles W Brickner <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:[email protected]] On
>> Behalf Of Douglas Koller
>>
>> Meanwhile, we can spot the difference between "sheet" and "shit" at fifty
>> paces, something that seems to mercurially elude many an L2 English
>> speaker
>> to the constant amusement or horror of the natives.
>> =====================================================
>> I am reminded of a startling moment when I was a student nurse back in
>> the
>> early 60s. While caring for a patient, the Filipina doctor asked me to
>> go
>> get her a clean shit.
>
> What truly boggles me about L2 English speakers' use of those phonemes
> is that I once knew a Russian man who seemed to have absolutely
> flawless English, perfect American accent, always produced the i/I
> distinction correctly... until one day he asked me why a candy bar is
> named after a kind of shoe. What? "You know, 'sneakers'." ...
> "Snickers?" "Yeah, sneakers."
> And upon inspection, apparently he could not hear the difference. But
> he could *say* it in all the other correct positions.
> I have no explanation.
>
> -l.
>
Messages in this topic (34)
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1.2. Re: On not perceiving (was: RE: Loglan[g] VS Natlang)
Posted by: "Allison Swenson" [email protected]
Date: Thu Jan 24, 2013 8:26 am ((PST))
Reminds me of friends of mine who were L1 English speakers, but went to
school in Mexico and (for whatever reason) took English language classes.
In them, the teacher quite earnestly taught the class that "slip" (to slip
on the floor) and "sleep" (to sleep on the bed) were pronounced exactly the
same way! Evidently she couldn't hear the difference when she was learning
English, and so just assumed it was the same sound.
On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 10:49 AM, Logan Kearsley <[email protected]>wrote:
> On 24 January 2013 08:44, Charles W Brickner <[email protected]>
> wrote:
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:[email protected]] On
> > Behalf Of Douglas Koller
> >
> > Meanwhile, we can spot the difference between "sheet" and "shit" at fifty
> > paces, something that seems to mercurially elude many an L2 English
> speaker
> > to the constant amusement or horror of the natives.
> > =====================================================
> > I am reminded of a startling moment when I was a student nurse back in
> the
> > early 60s. While caring for a patient, the Filipina doctor asked me to
> go
> > get her a clean shit.
>
> What truly boggles me about L2 English speakers' use of those phonemes
> is that I once knew a Russian man who seemed to have absolutely
> flawless English, perfect American accent, always produced the i/I
> distinction correctly... until one day he asked me why a candy bar is
> named after a kind of shoe. What? "You know, 'sneakers'." ...
> "Snickers?" "Yeah, sneakers."
> And upon inspection, apparently he could not hear the difference. But
> he could *say* it in all the other correct positions.
> I have no explanation.
>
> -l.
>
Messages in this topic (34)
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1.3. Re: On not perceiving (was: RE: Loglan[g] VS Natlang)
Posted by: "Leonardo Castro" [email protected]
Date: Thu Jan 24, 2013 8:47 am ((PST))
2013/1/24 Allison Swenson <[email protected]>:
> Reminds me of friends of mine who were L1 English speakers, but went to
> school in Mexico and (for whatever reason) took English language classes.
> In them, the teacher quite earnestly taught the class that "slip" (to slip
> on the floor) and "sleep" (to sleep on the bed) were pronounced exactly the
> same way! Evidently she couldn't hear the difference when she was learning
> English, and so just assumed it was the same sound.
In English classes of conventional school, I was never taught about
those differences because we never heard audio of real natives
speaking, and most teachers apparently were unaware of these things.
Only in language schools (i.e. private schools devoted only to
languages), I started hearing recordings of native speakers and
started noting the difference. I remember that once I played the CD at
home and my mother was impressed by the native pronunciation of
"milk". She said: I always thought it was /miwk/, didn't know it was
/mEwk/. The pronunciation of the <i> in this word was particularly
open (I don't know why; it sounded like Texan to me) and most
Brazilians pronounce pre-consonant L as kind of /w/ or unstressed
/u/.)
But even in language schools, I never had teachers who were native in
the language they taught, except two German teachers who, in their
turn, knew little about Grammar because they were hired as teacher
because they were natives, not because they had good understanding of
language. Once one of them told us that the correct option of an
exercise was "Wie sieht den fuss aus?". When I told him I thought that
it should be "Wie sieht der fuss aus?", he answered that it couldn't
be because a "foot" can't be a subject. Some time later, he changed
his mind but inverted the situation, saying: "I told you it was not
'den'; it should be 'der' because 'fuss' is the subject." As he was
half-Brazilian and half-Swiss; probably this behaviour was because he
learned the Brazilian "malandragem" well.
Messages in this topic (34)
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1.4. Re: On not perceiving (was: RE: Loglan[g] VS Natlang)
Posted by: "Jim Henry" [email protected]
Date: Thu Jan 24, 2013 9:36 am ((PST))
On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 11:46 AM, Leonardo Castro
<[email protected]> wrote:
> But even in language schools, I never had teachers who were native in
> the language they taught, except two German teachers who, in their
> turn, knew little about Grammar because they were hired as teacher
> because they were natives, not because they had good understanding of
> language.
When I took French in college, the professor was from rural north
Georgia (though she'd spent a fair amount of time in France, and
seemed to really know her stuff), but she had an assistant who was a
native French speaker. Her assistant would among other things read
lists of vocabulary words aloud slowly, pausing for us to repeat them,
and read aloud longish chunks of narrative prose that we'd try to
answer questions about.
So we had a good native model of pronunciation to imitate, but there
wasn't any real instruction about how to form unfamiliar sounds with
one's lips and tongue and so forth; it was just "listen to this and
try to imitate it". Only one or two of us came out of that class with
a good accent; I learned the grammar and vocabulary pretty well, and
continued studying on my own after the course was over, but it wasn't
until I studied linguistics on my own a couple of years later that I
learned to pronounce front rounded vowels.
--
Jim Henry
http://www.pobox.com/~jimhenry/
http://www.jimhenrymedicaltrust.org
Messages in this topic (34)
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1.5. Re: On not perceiving (was: RE: Loglan[g] VS Natlang)
Posted by: "Nikolay Ivankov" [email protected]
Date: Thu Jan 24, 2013 10:14 am ((PST))
I can imitate several different English accents - and they sound natural,
as the natives say. Yet there is 'my' Ruglish I speak. The rame goes for
my Rutsch with a grain of North Rhine. Though my accents are not that
heavy, you can tell I'm Russian quite soon. It seems to me its more a
nature of habit. If you are not urged to learn the 'right' pronunciation...
well, what for then? In the end, I consider my accent not as a bug, but as
a feature.
On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 5:11 PM, Adam Walker <[email protected]> wrote:
> I once knew a Russian guy named Vladik. He was a music major, an
> excellent pianist. He cloud put on the most convincing New York
> accent, sounded like he was born in the Bronx! But when he was just
> speaking, he had the "typical" Russian accent with odd vowels and
> unneeded palatalizations and overly aspirated consonants. I never
> quite understood that.
>
> Adam
>
> On 1/24/13, Logan Kearsley <[email protected]> wrote:
> > On 24 January 2013 08:44, Charles W Brickner <[email protected]
> >
> > wrote:
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:[email protected]] On
> >> Behalf Of Douglas Koller
> >>
> >> Meanwhile, we can spot the difference between "sheet" and "shit" at
> fifty
> >> paces, something that seems to mercurially elude many an L2 English
> >> speaker
> >> to the constant amusement or horror of the natives.
> >> =====================================================
> >> I am reminded of a startling moment when I was a student nurse back in
> >> the
> >> early 60s. While caring for a patient, the Filipina doctor asked me to
> >> go
> >> get her a clean shit.
> >
> > What truly boggles me about L2 English speakers' use of those phonemes
> > is that I once knew a Russian man who seemed to have absolutely
> > flawless English, perfect American accent, always produced the i/I
> > distinction correctly... until one day he asked me why a candy bar is
> > named after a kind of shoe. What? "You know, 'sneakers'." ...
> > "Snickers?" "Yeah, sneakers."
> > And upon inspection, apparently he could not hear the difference. But
> > he could *say* it in all the other correct positions.
> > I have no explanation.
> >
> > -l.
> >
>
Messages in this topic (34)
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2a. Re: Esperanto morphosemantics (was: Re: [CONLANG] So, about Ithkuil.
Posted by: "David McCann" [email protected]
Date: Thu Jan 24, 2013 8:28 am ((PST))
On Wed, 23 Jan 2013 15:43:42 -0500
Jim Henry <[email protected]> wrote:
> And he goes on to list these traditional affixes as being actual
> affixes in that sense:
> Suffixes: AÄ, ÄJ, EG, ET, IN, NJ, UM
> Prefixes: GE, MAL
The classification I learned was
Lexical roots, which belong to the categories noun, verb, or adjective.
These cannot occur without an identifier. e.g. bros n. âbrushâ.
Functional roots, which belong to the categories preposition,
conjunction, numeral, pronoun, and article. These can occur without an
identifier. e.g. du num. âtwoâ.
Affixoids, which resemble lexical roots in their categories and need
for an identifier but behave differently in composition by imposing
that category on the other elements and in having a fixed position.
e.g. sen- adj. âlackingâ, -ind adj. âworthyâ.
Affixes, which resemble affixoids in having a fixed position in
compounds, but lack an inherent semantic class. e.g. -et diminutive.
Identifiers, which are suffixes marking category: noun, adjective,
adverb, and verb (including the tense forms). e.g. -o noun.
Inflections, added to identifiers to mark the accusative case, motion,
and the plural. e.g. -j plural.
Messages in this topic (3)
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3a. Re: Conlang music (was RE: Orthography congruous to pronunciation)
Posted by: "Jörg Rhiemeier" [email protected]
Date: Thu Jan 24, 2013 8:31 am ((PST))
Hallo conlangers!
On Wednesday 23 January 2013 18:20:00 Roger Mills wrote:
> Tranditional Kash music used a 10-tone scale, and Herman Miller was kind
> enough to provide a melody for this poem. If anyone would like to hear it
> (and with Herman's permission) I'll post it. I've never tried to sing
> along with it, but since I tend to sing totally off-key anyway, it might
> work..........
I am not sure yet what kind of scale Old Albic music uses, but
I am leaning towards some kind of just intonation. I am not
very versed in tuning theory, I must say. Some ideas about Old
Albic music can be found here:
http://www.frathwiki.com/Old_Albic_music
--
... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
http://www.joerg-rhiemeier.de/Conlang/index.html
"Bêsel asa Éam, a Éam atha cvanthal a cvanth atha Éamal." - SiM 1:1
Messages in this topic (25)
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3b. Re: Conlang music (was RE: Orthography congruous to pronunciation)
Posted by: "Adam Walker" [email protected]
Date: Thu Jan 24, 2013 8:49 am ((PST))
I haven't really made up my mind about Carraxan music either. One
thing I continually debate is how much influence Arab music should
have. Should Carraxan music use the quarter tones? Should it sould
like Sardinian or Corsican polyphony? Should it sounnd like Radio
Tarifa? Should there be clear Troubador influence? I just can't quite
make up my mind for more than a few days at a stretch.
Adam
On 1/24/13, Jörg Rhiemeier <[email protected]> wrote:
> Hallo conlangers!
>
> On Wednesday 23 January 2013 18:20:00 Roger Mills wrote:
>
>> Tranditional Kash music used a 10-tone scale, and Herman Miller was kind
>> enough to provide a melody for this poem. If anyone would like to hear
>> it
>> (and with Herman's permission) I'll post it. I've never tried to sing
>> along with it, but since I tend to sing totally off-key anyway, it might
>> work..........
>
> I am not sure yet what kind of scale Old Albic music uses, but
> I am leaning towards some kind of just intonation. I am not
> very versed in tuning theory, I must say. Some ideas about Old
> Albic music can be found here:
>
> http://www.frathwiki.com/Old_Albic_music
>
> --
> ... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
> http://www.joerg-rhiemeier.de/Conlang/index.html
> "Bêsel asa Éam, a Éam atha cvanthal a cvanth atha Éamal." - SiM 1:1
>
Messages in this topic (25)
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3c. Re: Conlang music (was RE: Orthography congruous to pronunciation)
Posted by: "Garth Wallace" [email protected]
Date: Thu Jan 24, 2013 10:11 am ((PST))
On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 8:48 AM, Adam Walker <[email protected]> wrote:
> I haven't really made up my mind about Carraxan music either. One
> thing I continually debate is how much influence Arab music should
> have. Should Carraxan music use the quarter tones? Should it sould
> like Sardinian or Corsican polyphony? Should it sounnd like Radio
> Tarifa? Should there be clear Troubador influence? I just can't quite
> make up my mind for more than a few days at a stretch.
Polyphonic singing with quarter tones would be pretty interesting to
hear. Where are the Carraxans located again?
Messages in this topic (25)
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3d. Re: Conlang music (was RE: Orthography congruous to pronunciation)
Posted by: "Adam Walker" [email protected]
Date: Thu Jan 24, 2013 10:38 am ((PST))
the simple answer is *here's* Tunisia, but their territory stretches from
the western bit of Libya to the easter 2/3 of Algeria's coast, about to
Oran.
Adam
On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 12:11 PM, Garth Wallace <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 8:48 AM, Adam Walker <[email protected]> wrote:
> > I haven't really made up my mind about Carraxan music either. One
> > thing I continually debate is how much influence Arab music should
> > have. Should Carraxan music use the quarter tones? Should it sould
> > like Sardinian or Corsican polyphony? Should it sounnd like Radio
> > Tarifa? Should there be clear Troubador influence? I just can't quite
> > make up my mind for more than a few days at a stretch.
>
> Polyphonic singing with quarter tones would be pretty interesting to
> hear. Where are the Carraxans located again?
>
Messages in this topic (25)
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3e. Re: Conlang music (was RE: Orthography congruous to pronunciation)
Posted by: "Roger Mills" [email protected]
Date: Thu Jan 24, 2013 11:59 am ((PST))
--- On Thu, 1/24/13, Adam Walker <[email protected]> wrote:
the simple answer is *here's* Tunisia, but their territory stretches from
the western bit of Libya to the easter 2/3 of Algeria's coast, about to
Oran.
Adam
On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 12:11 PM, Garth Wallace <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Thu, Jan 24, 2013 at 8:48 AM, Adam Walker <[email protected]> wrote:
> > I haven't really made up my mind about Carraxan music either. One
> > thing I continually debate is how much influence Arab music should
> > have. Should Carraxan music use the quarter tones? Should it sould
> > like Sardinian or Corsican polyphony? Should it sounnd like Radio
> > Tarifa? Should there be clear Troubador influence? I just can't quite
> > make up my mind for more than a few days at a stretch.
>
> Polyphonic singing with quarter tones would be pretty interesting to
> hear. Where are the Carraxans located again?
>
============================================
I can certainly see some Arabic influence, but also Jewish, and what about
pre-Islamic Berber/Tuareg music? and Greek Orthodox? and of course Roman
Catholic~European. Maybe something like Spanish Mozarabic liturgical music, of
which some has been preserved? IIRC your elite/ruling family is of European
origin, no? Didn't they stem from the Vandal (Germanic) invasion of N.AFrica?
Maybe too early for troubador influence, but by early Renaissance times, that
could have reached Carraxa..........Do we know anything about Donatist
liturgical usages? Very early I'd suspect, so probably monophonic. But
"popular" music could be a mix of everything :-))) depending on much much
interaction there is between the various ethnic groups.
I don't recall your historical work exactly-- has it reached modern times yet?
Messages in this topic (25)
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4. Vulgar Latin
Posted by: "S. Dana Johnson" [email protected]
Date: Thu Jan 24, 2013 9:45 am ((PST))
Greetings, I'm new. I am (re)constructing a type of mostly mutually
comprehensible, Vulgar Latin. I have decided to represent the varying rates of
change throughout the Latin speaking world in terms of speech registers from a
Formal or Poetic, somewhat archaic and more "classical" form down through a
highly colloquial or slangy form more like Modern Romance in forms, syntax, et
cetera.
Any comments will be much appreciated, especially from those who have
undertaken something similar or have some knowledge or musings upon such
things. Best regards.
Messages in this topic (1)
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5a. Re: to be cognate or not to be cognate
Posted by: "Roger Mills" [email protected]
Date: Thu Jan 24, 2013 12:07 pm ((PST))
--- On Thu, 1/24/13, Charles W Brickner <[email protected]> wrote:
The Romanian cognates are interesting.
To close is 'închide'. To open is 'deschide'.
To my non-professional eye '-chide' has to be cognate to the Italian
'chiudere' < Lat. 'claudere', shut.
Thus, the Romanian word for close means "to shut in" and the word for open
means "to unclose".
===========================
Thanks for the Romanian. I've been wondering about Ital. chiudere. Shouldn't
*claudere have > **clodere, then modern ?chiodere? After all we have cosa <
causa, poco < paucus....but I can't summon up any others offhand. My knowlege
of Italian developments is scanty; I do know that the "standard" shows a lot of
dialect mixing.
Messages in this topic (10)
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5b. Re: to be cognate or not to be cognate
Posted by: "Alex Fink" [email protected]
Date: Thu Jan 24, 2013 2:24 pm ((PST))
On Thu, 24 Jan 2013 12:06:58 -0800, Roger Mills <[email protected]> wrote:
>--- On Thu, 1/24/13, Charles W Brickner <[email protected]> wrote:
>The Romanian cognates are interesting.
>To close is 'închide'. To open is 'deschide'.
>To my non-professional eye '-chide' has to be cognate to the Italian
>'chiudere' < Lat. 'claudere', shut.
>Thus, the Romanian word for close means "to shut in" and the word for open
>means "to unclose".
>===========================
>
>Thanks for the Romanian. I've been wondering about Ital. chiudere. Shouldn't
>*claudere have > **clodere, then modern ?chiodere? After all we have cosa <
>causa, poco < paucus....but I can't summon up any others offhand. My knowlege
>of Italian developments is scanty; I do know that the "standard" shows a lot
>of dialect mixing.
I wonder whether the Italian /u/ <? *u: might've instead been restored
analogically from Latin prefixed forms {con-, in-, ex-, oc-, ...}clūdere.
Alex
Messages in this topic (10)
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5c. Re: to be cognate or not to be cognate
Posted by: "Charles W Brickner" [email protected]
Date: Thu Jan 24, 2013 2:43 pm ((PST))
>--- On Thu, 1/24/13, Charles W Brickner <[email protected]> wrote:
>The Romanian cognates are interesting.
>To close is 'închide'. To open is 'deschide'.
>To my non-professional eye '-chide' has to be cognate to the Italian
>'chiudere' < Lat. 'claudere', shut.
>Thus, the Romanian word for close means "to shut in" and the word for
>open means "to unclose".
>===========================
> On Thu, 24 Jan 2013 12:06:58 -0800, Roger Mills <[email protected]> wrote:
>Thanks for the Romanian. I've been wondering about Ital. chiudere. Shouldn't
>*claudere have > **clodere, then modern ?chiodere? After all we have cosa <
>causa, poco < paucus....but I can't summon up any others offhand. My knowlege
>of Italian developments is scanty; I do know that the "standard" shows a lot
>of dialect mixing.
-----Original Message-----
From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Alex Fink
I wonder whether the Italian /u/ <? *u: might've instead been restored
analogically from Latin prefixed forms {con-, in-, ex-, oc-, ...}clūdere.
==============================
My first thought is that it's because of the C+l structure which neither
'paucus' or 'causa' have. But I'm no linguist.
Charlie
Messages in this topic (10)
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