There are 15 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. Re: velar series: where can it come from?
From: Matthew Boutilier
2a. Re: Sort of Future English (was: Verb Articles)
From: Leonardo Castro
2b. Re: Sort of Future English (was: Verb Articles)
From: Nikolay Ivankov
2c. Re: Sort of Future English (was: Verb Articles)
From: Leonardo Castro
2d. Re: Sort of Future English (was: Verb Articles)
From: Roger Mills
2e. Re: Sort of Future English (was: Verb Articles)
From: George Corley
2f. Re: Sort of Future English (was: Verb Articles)
From: Roger Mills
2g. Re: Sort of Future English (was: Verb Articles)
From: Leonardo Castro
3a. Fwd: [CONLANG] Using pre-existing conlang Roots to create a new lang
From: Melroch
3b. Re: Fwd: [CONLANG] Using pre-existing conlang Roots to create a new
From: Jörg Rhiemeier
4a. The language previously known as hɛlo, Take 5
From: Sylvia Sotomayor
4b. Re: The language previously known as hɛlo, Take 5
From: Sylvia Sotomayor
5a. Conlang Card Exchange
From: Padraic Brown
5b. Re: Conlang Card Exchange
From: Jeffrey Brown
5c. Re: [LCS Members] Conlang Card Exchange
From: Alex Fink
Messages
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1a. Re: velar series: where can it come from?
Posted by: "Matthew Boutilier" [email protected]
Date: Sat Jan 26, 2013 3:26 pm ((PST))
fyi, my tentative solution:
dentals > velars / in the environment of back vowels.
t_H > k_H
t > k
d > g
i have heard a lot of things recently about 'velar > uvular' in this
environment (even in dialects of english) so i do not think my solution
that far-fetched!
matt
On Sun, Dec 23, 2012 at 2:07 PM, Alex Fink <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Sun, 23 Dec 2012 11:41:41 -0600, Matthew Boutilier <
> [email protected]> wrote:
>
> >anyway, once you had /x/, i suppose to move back into the realm of
> plosives
> >you could do
> >x > G > g (> k)
> >all but the last step being part of Verner's law, of course.
>
> I would imagine you could even do [x] > [k] in one go, if you had to. I
> can't cite an instance of that directly, but it seems ample precedent that
> [s] > [t] is possible (e.g. Vietnamese, some Austronesian examples that
> Roger cited a little back).
>
> On Sat, 22 Dec 2012 20:34:11 -0600, Eric Christopherson <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> >Arapaho, probably:
> http://listserv.brown.edu/archives/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind1103a&L=conlang&P=821
>
> Awesome, I'll fold that into the article.
>
> Alex
>
Messages in this topic (7)
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2a. Re: Sort of Future English (was: Verb Articles)
Posted by: "Leonardo Castro" [email protected]
Date: Sun Jan 27, 2013 4:09 am ((PST))
Interesting, but I have competence to assess your previsions. Your
last "evolved" paragraph is almost completely uninteligible to me.
Maybe the most reliable short-term changes in a language are
incorporation of features that people already use informally in the
formal language.
Judging by how Brazilian teenagers write on Internet, I could guess
that future Brazilian Portuguese ortography will be more phonemic and
many diacritics will die.
Notably, they replace
/k/-sounding <c> with <k>
/z/-sounding <s> with <z>
/w/-or-unstressed-/u/-sounding <u> with <w>
nasalized <em> /�ej/ and <�o> /�w/ with <ein> and <aum>
casa /k'az@/ -> kaza
camisa -> kamiza
c�o -> kaum
n�o -> naum
nem -> nein
falou -> falow -> flw
At� mais!
Leonardo
2013/1/15 Nikolay Ivankov <[email protected]>:
> This day I was sort of bunching with the idea of how English words and
> phrases could have like become sort of functional words, that could be
> really used as articles for both nouns and verbs. Indeed, we can like have
> an example:
>
> I'm sort of going home, and I like see this guy.
> I'm like going home, and I really see this guy.
> I'm really going home, and I sorta see this guy.
> I'm really going home and, and I really see this guy.
>
> I won't like try to find the really precise difference between these
> phrases. In the end, I'm not, like, native speaker of English, so I can
> sort of get it all wrong. But let's sort of make an attempt of, like,
> conworlding and, like, conlanging, in which the use of these words in the
> above sense like underwent sort of grammaticalization.
>
> So, we sorta have like speakers of English, that are like stuck on sorta
> desert island, sorta really like in "LOST" style. They are sorta literate,
> but as da time really pass end da generaishns chanj, the orfografy rilly
> becomes sorta mess since you luyk olwaiz reely hav bettur thin's to doo
> when you'r on a sotta dezzit uiland, an' da ruitin' is dun buy reely smut
> guys.
>
> Ol so, sins da uiland is relle smol, U laek nou reele olda thinnz, sodda ol
> urtikliz "a" 'n' "the" rele becam cunfiozzit, cuz U rele can't tel if U
> wanna say "and a" or "and the", 'n' thei luik suwoont similaa, 'n' ol so
> you rele use 'sota', 'rele' and 'luik' widdem anewai. So rele ol' aateklez
> "a" 'n' sota becom patts of reye wodds luk "so the -> sudda = ol'guy so"
> 'n' you reye staat ioozin 'luh', 'rey' and 'soa' en stett uv them.
>
> Azza rey santores soa pus, you soa and up widda luh tulk widda luh thre
> uteklez dat rey mai be iozt fo baath rey nawnz 'n' rey vaabs, widda soa
> deffaan' praapetes, 'n' dis iozaj iz nuw both luh oblegaytore 'n'
> gramatekul. Fu luh enstuns, "rey" sota is nuw luh dafenet aatekl 'n'
> putekolur akshin, "luh" is soa wun-tuym akshin 'n' "soa" is wun ovda luh
> hubetooal akshins, 'n' both last wuns uh luh deferan' endafenet aateklis.
>
> Well, maybe you like have sort of other ideas? It would be really nice to
> know, what could like be other ways of really making sort of verb articles
> really diachronically.
>
> Riy bast weshis,
>
> Kolya
Messages in this topic (8)
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2b. Re: Sort of Future English (was: Verb Articles)
Posted by: "Nikolay Ivankov" [email protected]
Date: Sun Jan 27, 2013 4:43 am ((PST))
On Sun, Jan 27, 2013 at 1:09 PM, Leonardo Castro <[email protected]>wrote:
> Interesting, but I have competence to assess your previsions. Your
> last "evolved" paragraph is almost completely uninteligible to me.
>
Yep, it seems I shouldn't have "evolved" things that much.
> Maybe the most reliable short-term changes in a language are
> incorporation of features that people already use informally in the
> formal language.
>
> Judging by how Brazilian teenagers write on Internet, I could guess
> that future Brazilian Portuguese ortography will be more phonemic and
> many diacritics will die.
>
> Notably, they replace
> /k/-sounding <c> with <k>
> /z/-sounding <s> with <z>
> /w/-or-unstressed-/u/-sounding <u> with <w>
> nasalized <em> /�ej/ and <�o> /�w/ with <ein> and <aum>
>
> casa /k'az@/ -> kaza
> camisa -> kamiza
> c�o -> kaum
> n�o -> naum
> nem -> nein
> falou -> falow -> flw
>
> At� mais!
>
> Leonardo
>
>
> 2013/1/15 Nikolay Ivankov <[email protected]>:
> > This day I was sort of bunching with the idea of how English words and
> > phrases could have like become sort of functional words, that could be
> > really used as articles for both nouns and verbs. Indeed, we can like
> have
> > an example:
> >
> > I'm sort of going home, and I like see this guy.
> > I'm like going home, and I really see this guy.
> > I'm really going home, and I sorta see this guy.
> > I'm really going home and, and I really see this guy.
> >
> > I won't like try to find the really precise difference between these
> > phrases. In the end, I'm not, like, native speaker of English, so I can
> > sort of get it all wrong. But let's sort of make an attempt of, like,
> > conworlding and, like, conlanging, in which the use of these words in the
> > above sense like underwent sort of grammaticalization.
> >
> > So, we sorta have like speakers of English, that are like stuck on sorta
> > desert island, sorta really like in "LOST" style. They are sorta
> literate,
> > but as da time really pass end da generaishns chanj, the orfografy rilly
> > becomes sorta mess since you luyk olwaiz reely hav bettur thin's to doo
> > when you'r on a sotta dezzit uiland, an' da ruitin' is dun buy reely smut
> > guys.
> >
> > Ol so, sins da uiland is relle smol, U laek nou reele olda thinnz, sodda
> ol
> > urtikliz "a" 'n' "the" rele becam cunfiozzit, cuz U rele can't tel if U
> > wanna say "and a" or "and the", 'n' thei luik suwoont similaa, 'n' ol so
> > you rele use 'sota', 'rele' and 'luik' widdem anewai. So rele ol'
> aateklez
> > "a" 'n' sota becom patts of reye wodds luk "so the -> sudda = ol'guy so"
> > 'n' you reye staat ioozin 'luh', 'rey' and 'soa' en stett uv them.
> >
> > Azza rey santores soa pus, you soa and up widda luh tulk widda luh thre
> > uteklez dat rey mai be iozt fo baath rey nawnz 'n' rey vaabs, widda soa
> > deffaan' praapetes, 'n' dis iozaj iz nuw both luh oblegaytore 'n'
> > gramatekul. Fu luh enstuns, "rey" sota is nuw luh dafenet aatekl 'n'
> > putekolur akshin, "luh" is soa wun-tuym akshin 'n' "soa" is wun ovda luh
> > hubetooal akshins, 'n' both last wuns uh luh deferan' endafenet aateklis.
> >
> > Well, maybe you like have sort of other ideas? It would be really nice to
> > know, what could like be other ways of really making sort of verb
> articles
> > really diachronically.
> >
> > Riy bast weshis,
> >
> > Kolya
>
Messages in this topic (8)
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2c. Re: Sort of Future English (was: Verb Articles)
Posted by: "Leonardo Castro" [email protected]
Date: Sun Jan 27, 2013 9:39 am ((PST))
2013/1/27 Leonardo Castro <[email protected]>:
>
> Notably, they replace
> /k/-sounding <c> with <k>
> /z/-sounding <s> with <z>
> /w/-or-unstressed-/u/-sounding <u> with <w>
> nasalized <em> /�ej/ and <�o> /�w/ with <ein> and <aum>
Other features of Brazilian Internet Portuguese:
* infinitive final <r> is dropped:
cantar -> kanta
fazer -> faze
dormir -> dormi/durmi
Although there are really some people who don't pronounce final r, in
this case the change would make the orthography less phonemic, as it
would be no distinction between pairs like "canta" /k'ant@/ and
"cantar" /kant'ar/. And people on Internet doesn't like to use
accentuation diacritics.
Messages in this topic (8)
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2d. Re: Sort of Future English (was: Verb Articles)
Posted by: "Roger Mills" [email protected]
Date: Sun Jan 27, 2013 10:09 am ((PST))
--- On Sun, 1/27/13, Leonardo Castro <[email protected]> wrote:
Interesting, but I have competence to assess your previsions. Your
last "evolved" paragraph is almost completely uninteligible to me.
RM truly!!
Maybe the most reliable short-term changes in a language are
incorporation of features that people already use informally in the
formal language.
Judging by how Brazilian teenagers write on Internet, I could guess
that future Brazilian Portuguese ortography will be more phonemic and
many diacritics will die.
Notably, they replace
/k/-sounding <c> with <k>
/z/-sounding <s> with <z>
/w/-or-unstressed-/u/-sounding <u> with <w>
nasalized <em> /˜ej/ and <ão> /ãw/ with <ein> and <aum>
RM sort of an impertinent question, but why?? I've seen Spanish writers using
things like "k" for _que_ (reasonable enough) and a few others. But surely any
Lusophone knows that "casa" is pronounced ['kaz@] etc. And while the tilde on
the ao diphthong probably can't be reproduced in i-text, surely again everyone
knows what it's pronounced in final position, so no need to add the "m". Same
with "-em" > "-ein". (These don't even save a letter, they add one.) Simply
unncessary. and "flw" for falou really plays hob with the word. Yes, it saves a
few letters out of the quota, but OMG.... My school-marmish mentality is
revolted !!! ;-((((
casa /k'az@/ -> kaza
camisa -> kamiza
cão -> kaum
não -> naum
nem -> nein
falou -> falow -> flw
Messages in this topic (8)
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2e. Re: Sort of Future English (was: Verb Articles)
Posted by: "George Corley" [email protected]
Date: Sun Jan 27, 2013 10:14 am ((PST))
On Sun, Jan 27, 2013 at 12:09 PM, Roger Mills <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> RM sort of an impertinent question, but why?? I've seen Spanish writers
> using things like "k" for _que_ (reasonable enough) and a few others. But
> surely any Lusophone knows that "casa" is pronounced ['kaz@] etc. And
> while the tilde on the ao diphthong probably can't be reproduced in i-text,
> surely again everyone knows what it's pronounced in final position, so no
> need to add the "m". Same with "-em" > "-ein". (These don't even save a
> letter, they add one.) Simply unncessary. and "flw" for falou really plays
> hob with the word. Yes, it saves a few letters out of the quota, but
> OMG.... My school-marmish mentality is revolted !!! ;-((((
A small note: That <k> for "que" thing always interested me. I always
thought it was a sign of familiarity with English, since the Spanish name
for <k> is /ka/.
Messages in this topic (8)
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2f. Re: Sort of Future English (was: Verb Articles)
Posted by: "Roger Mills" [email protected]
Date: Sun Jan 27, 2013 10:58 am ((PST))
--- On Sun, 1/27/13, George Corley <[email protected]> wrote:
On Sun, Jan 27, 2013 at 12:09 PM, Roger Mills <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> RM sort of an impertinent question, but why?? I've seen Spanish writers
> using things like "k" for _que_ (reasonable enough) and a few others.
A small note: That <k> for "que" thing always interested me. I always
thought it was a sign of familiarity with English, since the Spanish name
for <k> is /ka/.
=================================
True, "k"is /ka/. As for k = "que" I only encountered it on "Ideolengua" a (now
defunct?) Spanish-lang. conlang list. While posts in other langs. were allowed,
it was pretty clear that most of the participants knew Engl. (as well as
others). But I'd bet it's used in texting and other character-limited fora....
Messages in this topic (8)
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2g. Re: Sort of Future English (was: Verb Articles)
Posted by: "Leonardo Castro" [email protected]
Date: Sun Jan 27, 2013 1:12 pm ((PST))
2013/1/27 Roger Mills <[email protected]>:
> --- On Sun, 1/27/13, Leonardo Castro <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> Judging by how Brazilian teenagers write on Internet, I could guess
> that future Brazilian Portuguese ortography will be more phonemic and
> many diacritics will die.
>
> Notably, they replace
> /k/-sounding <c> with <k>
> /z/-sounding <s> with <z>
> /w/-or-unstressed-/u/-sounding <u> with <w>
> nasalized <em> /�ej/ and <�o> /�w/ with <ein> and <aum>
>
> RM sort of an impertinent question, but why??
When I was in my early 20s, I had a teenager colleague in an English
class who wrote Portuguese like this. When I asked her why she wrote
"kada" instead of "cada" (e.g.), she said that it was more "cool" to
write it with "k".
But maybe behind this it's the fact that "k" is always /k/ and "c"
could be /s/ as well, so "k" is felt as more "pureblood".
Here some examples of teenager Internet Portuguese:
http://www.vibeflog.com/marcitojapa/p/1620301
http://www.fotolog.com/brapinha/10433872/
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Portuguese_internet_slang
> I've seen Spanish writers using things like "k" for _que_ (reasonable enough)
> and a few others. But surely any Lusophone knows that "casa" is pronounced
> ['kaz@] etc. And while the tilde on the ao diphthong probably can't be
> reproduced in i-text,
Typing "naum" is faster than typing "n�o":
naum = n + a + u + m
n�o = n + {hold-shift-key} + {tilde-key} + {release-shift-key} + a + o
> surely again everyone knows what it's pronounced in final position, so no
> need to add the "m".
I guess they prefer to use "u" instead of "o" because "u" represents
the sound in the diphthong better. So, as there's another word "nau",
they write "naum".
BTW, in telegrams, even adult people used to write NAUM (n�o), EH
("�", different from "e"), DAH ("d�", different from "da"), because
there was no diacritics.
> Same with "-em" > "-ein". (These don't even save a letter, they add one.)
> Simply unncessary.
I think they only want to write the "i" that they feel they pronounce.
There's also "aneim" (Ah, nem...), kind of childish supplicant "Oh,
no!":
And there's also "nois" instead of "n�s".
> and "flw" for falou really plays hob with the word.
They usually write "flw mlq" instead of "Falou, moleque!" that is
literally "You said it, kid!" but means "See you later!".
2013/1/27 Roger Mills <[email protected]>:
> --- On Sun, 1/27/13, George Corley <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Sun, Jan 27, 2013 at 12:09 PM, Roger Mills <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>
>> RM sort of an impertinent question, but why?? I've seen Spanish writers
>> using things like "k" for _que_ (reasonable enough) and a few others.
>
> A small note: That <k> for "que" thing always interested me. I always
> thought it was a sign of familiarity with English, since the Spanish name
> for <k> is /ka/.
> =================================
>
> True, "k"is /ka/. As for k = "que" I only encountered it on "Ideolengua" a
> (now defunct?) Spanish-lang. conlang list. While posts in other langs. were
> allowed, it was pretty clear that most of the participants knew Engl. (as
> well as others). But I'd bet it's used in texting and other character-limited
> fora....
In Portuguese, I'm familiar with "kkkkkkk" being used as English "LOL"
because of the sound /kakakakaka/ that resembles a laugh. For "que",
people usually type simply "q".
Note how this girl uses "q" for "que", "pq" for "porque", "luizinha"
for "luzinha", "td" for "tudo", etc.:
http://br.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100127051152AA4IgNK
Messages in this topic (8)
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3a. Fwd: [CONLANG] Using pre-existing conlang Roots to create a new lang
Posted by: "Melroch" [email protected]
Date: Sun Jan 27, 2013 8:39 am ((PST))
I'm afraid this didn't go to the list the first time I sent it.
---------- Vidarebefordrat meddelande ----------
Från: *Melroch*
Datum: söndagen den 27:e januari 2013
Ämne: [CONLANG] Using pre-existing conlang Roots to create a new language
The actual unconditioned chain shift in Old High German is pretty cool:
d > t > T > d
except that the outcome of single *t is actually [s_m] after vowels and
[ts_m] elsewhere including when geminated.
I'd try to come up with some earlier perhaps conditioned shift which feeds
such a shift.
I've done my share of bogolanging of the "apply the sound changes of
natlang X to natlang Y" variety and found that it only brings you so far. I
have also done my share of "apply the sound changes of natlang X to
a-priori conlang Y" and above all the "what sound changes do you need/can
you apply to con-/natlang X to make it resemble natlang Y" variety. The
thing is that I almost always end up spicing up the stew by introducing
something from natlang Z, related to neither X nor Y. Take for example
Rhodrese, which was in origin a renewal of a project from my teens taking
bits from Italian and French and build a Romance language most pleasing to
me. Of course I know more now so I'd be more careful of making it a
plausible descendant of Vulgar Latin, and I would take care not to get too
close to Occitan (for all my admiration for that language) Lombard or
Romantsch. So I suddenly find myself introducing Germanic-style i-umlaut
and then bending the pattern of the development of nominal plural endings
in Italian to get a starred system where all three declensions have plurals
in _*-i_ which feed i-umlaut. I don't know if such things make such
conlanging more 'advanced' but it does make it more fun, and more "a priori
in a posteriori" which I guess is a Good Thing. After all the whole point
of Rhodrese is to create a romlang which satisfies my possibly warped
aesthetic sensibilities -- a yummy lámatyáve as Tolkien would probably not
have said.
With Sohlob I've tried to work backwards to come up with an earlier stage
of an (a priori) conlang which would allow me to craft realistic sound
changes to come up with sister languages with certain characteristics,
mostly inspired by certain natlangs. This has proven harder than I
expected, mainly because the characteristics of the daughter languages are
largely already predetermined and it becomes a requirement on the mother
language to be able to realistically change into all those daughter
languages. E.g. the eastern Sohlob dialects which were originally were
designed to phonologically resemble Turkic and modern Persian lack any form
of quantity distinction in both vowels and consonants, and so did their
mother language. Now I wanted the western Sohlob languages to resemble
Germanic at least a little and so to have both long and short vowels. I
could not very well just decide that the mother language had long vowels
without upsetting the patterns of syncope and apocope which obtained
between the mother language and the eastern languages. Instead I
'reconstructed' a grandmother language which had both long and short
*consonants* between vowels and then the following sound changes in the
western branch:
| Vd > V:d > V:D
| Vt > Vd > VD
| Vdd > V:dd > V:t
| Vtt > Vtt > Vt
| Vxt > Vtt
originally consonant length was supposed to disappear without trace in the
eastern branch but there was a small phonotactic weirdness in that branch:
it didn't have any intervocalic voiceless stops since in the older version
without quantity I had had
| VdV > VDV > VzV
| VtV > VdV
to which I now added
| VddV > VdV
| VttV > VtV
I decided that *dd had been pretty rare, but that the western branch had
*zd > *dd before the quantity shift so as to make V:t less rare in the
daughter languages. However I'm still not quite satisfied, as the relative
frequency of V:D vs. V:t in the western branch and Vd vs. Vt in the eastern
branch doesn't feel quite realistic. The probably best solution is to have
/d/, /t/, /tt/ but no /dd/** in the mother language and then have
west-Germanic-like Cj > CC feeding the quantity shift in the western
branch. That would be easily introduced since +y clusters and
palatalization are prominent in the eastern branch. This however imtroduces
another problem in that palatalization of *ry was __the__ source of /l/ in
both branches. There are two possible solutions: (1) unconditioned *r > l
and *z > r in the western branch, which would make /rt/ strangely rare or
(2) a late *l > *r and then even later *ry > l in the eastern branch, which
at least is naturalistic since it actually happened in north Iranian (Latin
_Alani_ borrowed from a reflex of proto-Iranian *āryāna.
Anyway thus it is a constant tug-of-war between tweaks to mother, daughter
and sister languages. It _is_ fun but it rather shatters any hopes of ever
rounding off the family tree. Which I guess is good. I don't think I want
to get finished with this, but I feel that things morph too fast for me to
keep my vocabulary db updated...
/bpj
Den lördagen den 26:e januari 2013 skrev Elliott Lash:
Thanks Alex for your comments
(1) Silinestic languages have multiple abstract known formations, as you
suggested. -tû and -ma are just two of them. There's also -rhai and -wa and
-lo for some more that I can think of off the top of my head. The idea here
is that although all would be attested in the daughter languages, only some
are productive. Perhaps the 'Germanic' language chose to make -tû
productive and extended it to roots which would have taken -ma in the
proto-language.
(2) As for the change from [t_h] to [d] change, I never implied that it was
one step, I would assume it moved through [t], but after the voiceless
sound had become [T]. So I am not sure if that renders your point moot, as
I am not a phonologist. Otherwise, I could just use your alternative method
of deriving [d], via [T]. That's fair enough.
(3) Granted this sort of thing might be not everyone's cup of tea. But I
would like to distance this type of endeavor from the more common approach
to this kind of a postiori conlanging, which is to take a proto-language
reconstructed by academic methods on the basis of real natlangs and then
create a sort of alternative development to wind up with a new branch on
the tree for the same language family. My design goals here are completely
different. It is to take mostly a priori roots and apply sound changes that
are similar, but possibly not identical to the sound changes posited in the
development of the target language. In this way I can create an A PRIORI
language that is superficially a like the target natlang. Of course
Silinestic does have some influences from my study of Indo-European, so
it's not completely free of a posteriori effects. What I have often found
in the past in trying to do this with the Silinestic roots that I have is
that the
roots and the morphology that I designed for that proto-language do not
really constitute a phonotactically suitable system for deriving fake
Germanic (for example) via the actual sound changes that are posited for
Germanic. That means that I really have to think a lot about how to get the
same or similar result with different changes.
Thanks again for your comments and I am glad you thought it was done 'great
craft'! It was really just a quick attempt which I am sure can be greatly
improved. For instance, I have noted that 'Esset' (*essida) and Wetze
(*westitu) actually have the wrong development for 'd' and 't', if I want
to wind up with something approximating the history of Germanic. -d- should
become -t- and then (OHG) -zz- and then (NHG) -ss-, while -t- should become
-T- then -D- and then -t-, and in fact that is what usually happens even in
this fake Silinestic Germanic. However, since I like these words, I'll have
to think of some new non-Germanic sound changes that have the effect of
creating Germanic sounding words.
Oh, and finally, this language is a practice language and really would
never have developed in Oreni (the world where Silindion and its
proto-language Silinestic are spoken)
Elliott
________________________________
From: Alex Fink <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2013 6:33 PM
Subject: Re: Using pre-existing conlang Roots to create a new language
On Fri, 25 Jan 2013 18:03:16 -0800, Elliott Lash <[email protected]>
wrote:
> Note that the 'Germanic' language differs from Silindion in having another
> abstract noun suffix -tû instead of -ma - this I think is fairly common
> amongst related languages.
What's actually really common, I think, is for a language to have a whole
bunch of suffixes (/ other processes) that it uses to make abstract nouns
with different fossilised frequencies and patterns of behaviour; just one
would be kinda weird. Of course, it is a very common historical
development for different such suffixes to become more or less productive.
> This ['th'] would then change to 'd-' (aspirated t to voiced stop seems
> like a fair change to me).
I must differ. To me, that change in one step seems actually impòssible if
there is also a [t] in the language: [t_h] and [t] and [d] only differ in
voice onset time, decreasing in that order, and since sound change is
gradual [t_h] cannot jump over [t] to become [d]. Now, as it turns out,
the *other* direction [d] to [t_h] is a common enough multi-step change in
natlangs, with breathy voice as an intermediate, [d] > [d_h\] > [t_h]; but
I've never seen this run in reverse (unconditioned voicing changes are
virtually always towards the unmarked, and voiceless aspirated are less
marked than voiced). The shortest way to get [t_h] > [d] I can see is
[t_h] > [T] which in Germanesque style > [D] > [d].
All that said,
Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
3b. Re: Fwd: [CONLANG] Using pre-existing conlang Roots to create a new
Posted by: "Jörg Rhiemeier" [email protected]
Date: Sun Jan 27, 2013 11:17 am ((PST))
Hallo conlangers!
On Sunday 27 January 2013 17:39:48 Melroch wrote:
> I'm afraid this didn't go to the list the first time I sent it.
>
> ---------- Vidarebefordrat meddelande ----------
> Från: *Melroch*
> Datum: söndagen den 27:e januari 2013
> Ämne: [CONLANG] Using pre-existing conlang Roots to create a new language
>
>
> The actual unconditioned chain shift in Old High German is pretty cool:
>
> d > t > T > d
>
> except that the outcome of single *t is actually [s_m] after vowels and
> [ts_m] elsewhere including when geminated.
And */T/ > /d/ predates the rest, as a /d/ resulting from this
is devoiced in Upper German. Also, it has happened in Low German,
too.
> I'd try to come up with some earlier perhaps conditioned shift which feeds
> such a shift.
>
> I've done my share of bogolanging of the "apply the sound changes of
> natlang X to natlang Y" variety and found that it only brings you so far.
Indeed. I have made *one* language of that kind, Roman Germanech,
which has some strong points (I particularly like how the interplay
of Early Romance and German sound changes causes VL */E/ and */O/
to leap-frog */e/ and */o/ and become /i/ and /u/, respectively);
but I think I need not try again. The general problem with this
is that natlang X and natlang Y almost never have the same
phonology and thus the sound changes of natlang X make little sense
when applied to natlang Y. You must bend them creatively to make
them make sense!
> I
> have also done my share of "apply the sound changes of natlang X to
> a-priori conlang Y" and above all the "what sound changes do you need/can
> you apply to con-/natlang X to make it resemble natlang Y" variety. The
> thing is that I almost always end up spicing up the stew by introducing
> something from natlang Z, related to neither X nor Y.
I attempted some such conlangs, applying the sound changes of this
or that European language to Proto-Hesperic, but it failed to work
out to my satisfaction, chiefly because Proto-Hesperic has a quite
different phonology than PIE.
As a consequence, I now use my own sound change lists in my work
with the Hesperic languages, even if they are in some instances
*influenced* by natlang sound changes. For example, Proto-
Alpianic has undergone a consonant shift similar to the extreme
form of the High German shift that happened in Swiss German, but
in many other points its sound changes are very different from
those of Swiss German!
> Take for example
> Rhodrese, which was in origin a renewal of a project from my teens taking
> bits from Italian and French and build a Romance language most pleasing to
> me.
Oh, weren't things easy when we weren't yet burdened with the kind
of linguistic knowledge we have now? ;) But on the other hand, we
now have much more fun with the diachronic method!
> Of course I know more now so I'd be more careful of making it a
> plausible descendant of Vulgar Latin, and I would take care not to get too
> close to Occitan (for all my admiration for that language) Lombard or
> Romantsch. So I suddenly find myself introducing Germanic-style i-umlaut
> and then bending the pattern of the development of nominal plural endings
> in Italian to get a starred system where all three declensions have plurals
> in _*-i_ which feed i-umlaut.
I think that can be done without administrating violence to Vulgar
Latin, so why not?
> I don't know if such things make such
> conlanging more 'advanced' but it does make it more fun, and more "a priori
> in a posteriori" which I guess is a Good Thing. After all the whole point
> of Rhodrese is to create a romlang which satisfies my possibly warped
> aesthetic sensibilities -- a yummy lámatyáve as Tolkien would probably not
> have said.
At least, it does some things differently than other Romance
languages, and that is a Good Thing.
> With Sohlob I've tried to work backwards to come up with an earlier stage
> of an (a priori) conlang which would allow me to craft realistic sound
> changes to come up with sister languages with certain characteristics,
> mostly inspired by certain natlangs. This has proven harder than I
> expected, mainly because the characteristics of the daughter languages are
> largely already predetermined and it becomes a requirement on the mother
> language to be able to realistically change into all those daughter
> languages.
I know what you are talking about. Parts of Proto-Hesperic are
made up backwardly from Old Albic; others are made forwardly from
Proto-Europic, which was made up backwardly from PIE. It is not
always easy to get these strands together; of course, I could
change Old Albic to fit, but I try to find solutions which get by
with as little change to Old Albic as possible (in practice, this
has shown to work quite well; also, that way I find occasion to
add flesh to the sound change list of Old Albic, which I sometimes
feel to be too short for the time depth of the Hesperic family, let
alone Europic, which takes one even farther back than Hesperic).
And of course, I am not in any position to tweak PIE to fit ;)
> E.g. the eastern Sohlob dialects which were originally were
> designed to phonologically resemble Turkic and modern Persian lack any form
> of quantity distinction in both vowels and consonants, and so did their
> mother language. Now I wanted the western Sohlob languages to resemble
> Germanic at least a little and so to have both long and short vowels. I
> could not very well just decide that the mother language had long vowels
> without upsetting the patterns of syncope and apocope which obtained
> between the mother language and the eastern languages. Instead I
> 'reconstructed' a grandmother language which had both long and short
> *consonants* between vowels and then the following sound changes in the
>
> western branch:
> | Vd > V:d > V:D
> | Vt > Vd > VD
> | Vdd > V:dd > V:t
> | Vtt > Vtt > Vt
> | Vxt > Vtt
An interesting way of achieving this.
> originally consonant length was supposed to disappear without trace in the
> eastern branch but there was a small phonotactic weirdness in that branch:
> it didn't have any intervocalic voiceless stops since in the older version
> without quantity I had had
>
> | VdV > VDV > VzV
> | VtV > VdV
>
> to which I now added
>
> | VddV > VdV
> | VttV > VtV
>
> I decided that *dd had been pretty rare, but that the western branch had
> *zd > *dd before the quantity shift so as to make V:t less rare in the
> daughter languages. However I'm still not quite satisfied, as the relative
> frequency of V:D vs. V:t in the western branch and Vd vs. Vt in the eastern
> branch doesn't feel quite realistic. The probably best solution is to have
> /d/, /t/, /tt/ but no /dd/** in the mother language
Makes sense. Perhaps in Pre-Proto-Sohlob, there were three degrees
of consonant length and no voicing, and the Proto-Sohlob system
emerged by a chain shift *ttt > *tt > *t > *d. Kind of like the
consonant gradation systems in Balto-Finnic languages.
> and then have
> west-Germanic-like Cj > CC feeding the quantity shift in the western
> branch. That would be easily introduced since +y clusters and
> palatalization are prominent in the eastern branch.
Yep.
> This however imtroduces
> another problem in that palatalization of *ry was __the__ source of /l/ in
> both branches. There are two possible solutions: (1) unconditioned *r > l
> and *z > r in the western branch, which would make /rt/ strangely rare or
> (2) a late *l > *r and then even later *ry > l in the eastern branch, which
> at least is naturalistic since it actually happened in north Iranian (Latin
> _Alani_ borrowed from a reflex of proto-Iranian *āryāna.
This indeed makes perfect sense!
> Anyway thus it is a constant tug-of-war between tweaks to mother, daughter
> and sister languages. It _is_ fun but it rather shatters any hopes of ever
> rounding off the family tree. Which I guess is good. I don't think I want
> to get finished with this, but I feel that things morph too fast for me to
> keep my vocabulary db updated...
Certainly, such tinkering with sound changes is *a lot of fun*.
But indeed, it involves the risk of getting lost in a mess of
alternative solutions which one finds it hard to choose from.
It *is* useful to set some constraints, such as to treat some
of the conlangs as done deals to which no changes are allowed
except in dire emergency. Once you have released a conlang to
the public, this is a good occasion to "freeze" it. I plan to
make the version of Old Albic I am currently working on such a
final version which may not be changed further except for adding
more words and of course writing more texts. I have found my
lamatyáve, and the daughters and other relatives of Old Albic
will give me enough work and fun to keep me going!
--
... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
http://www.joerg-rhiemeier.de/Conlang/index.html
"Bêsel asa Éam, a Éam atha cvanthal a cvanth atha Éamal." - SiM 1:1
Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
4a. The language previously known as hɛlo, Take 5
Posted by: "Sylvia Sotomayor" [email protected]
Date: Sun Jan 27, 2013 11:55 am ((PST))
(Best viewed in a fixed-width font)
ah aɬudan a loho tɛŋɛt
SRC north.wind.MOT1 SRC sun.MOT1 argument.MOT1
da hava kɪtɬa yandɛgɛ ya-dɛma
3SG.INAN.MOT1 3SG.AN.SESS strong.AN most be-DUB
dus-ibu-tena bu
back.and.forth-BU-REP BU
dona nɛn lude kyallaya tɪŋya-tena.
traveler.MOT1 COMIT cloak.SESS warm.INAN on.a.path-REP.
ah aɬudan a loho ŋyehe
SRC north.wind.MOT1 SRC sun.MOT1 agreement.MOT1
da hava kɪtɬɛ yandɛgɛ ya
3SG.INAN.MOT1 3SG.AN.SESS strong.AN most be
mɪdi-t a dona ma-vɛ ludɪdi
3SG.AN-CAUS SRC traveler 3SG.RAT-POSS cloak.MOT1
opɛsi duso-tena.
away.from.SRC.COMPL back.and.forth-REP.
na ah aɬudan ha-gɛ
and.then SRC north.wind 3P.AN-POSS2
kyɛgɛ evi-bi-tena.
attempt.MOT2 out.from.SRC-STARTED-REP.
ah aɬudan ha-gɛ dɛlɪdiya
SRC north.wind 3P.AN-POSS2 breath.MOT1
tɪnna-tena iyɛ iyɛ.
on.a.path.REPEATED-REP again again.
ha-gɛ dɛlɪdiya-t
3P.AN-POSS2 breath.MOT1-CAUS
tɪnna-tena iyɛ iyɛ
on.a.path.REPEATED-REP again again
ma-vɛ ludɪdiya ɛmmɛ-tena
3P.AN-POSS cloak.MOT2 inwards.to.DEST.REPEATED-REP
u dona iyɛ iyɛ.
DEST traveler again again.
ah aɬudan ha-gɛ kyɛgɛ
SRC north.wind 3P.AN-POSS2 attempt.MOT2
evi-ŋi-tena ɪlmaŋi.
out.from.SRC-COMPLETED-REPORTED finally.
na a loho ha-gɛ
and.then SRC sun.MOT1 3P.AN-POSS2
kyɛgɛ evi-bi-tena.
attempt.MOT2 out.from.SRC-STARTED-REP.
a loho ha-gɛ loga
SRC sun.MOT1 3P.AN-POSS2 light.MOT2
ha-gɛ kyallaya evi-tena.
3P.AN-POSS2 heat.MOT2 out.from.SRC-REP.
a dona ma-vɛ ludɪdi
SRC traveler 3P.RAT-POSS cloak.MOT1
opɛsi-tena yahannɪ.
away.from.SRC.COMPL-REP soon.
noda ah aɬudan ŋyehe
in.conclusion SRC north.wind.MOT1 agreement.MOT2
da lohava kɪtɬɛ yandɛgɛ ya evi-tena.
3SG.INAN.MOT2 sun.SESS strong.AN most be out.from.SRC-REP.
Abbreviations used:
3SG third person, singular
AN animate
BU signals simultaneity, among other things
CAUS causative
COMIT comitative
DEST destination
DUB dubitive, for when things are in doubt
INAN inanimate
MOT1 first motile form
MOT2 second motile form
POSS possessive (default)
POSS2 possessive (made by possessor)
RAT rational animate (i.e. people)
REP reported
SESS sessile form
SRC source
number mostly not indicated, but everything is singular
Do you need me to indicated subclauses?
I am mostly happy with this now. I think this will be stable for a while. I
guess that means I have to come up with a name for it. :-) And numbers for
Janko.
It has noun classes (8-14, depending on how one counts them),
evidentiality, possessive relations, and a few other minor fun things not
shown in this story.
What do you think?
--
Sylvia Sotomayor
The sooner I fall behind the more time I have to catch up.
Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
4b. Re: The language previously known as hɛlo, Take 5
Posted by: "Sylvia Sotomayor" [email protected]
Date: Sun Jan 27, 2013 12:10 pm ((PST))
And of course, I made a mistake. It should be:
hava-t a dona ma-vɛ ludɪdi
3SG.AN-CAUS SRC traveler 3SG.RAT-POSS cloak.MOT1
On Sun, Jan 27, 2013 at 11:55 AM, Sylvia Sotomayor <[email protected]>wrote:
> (Best viewed in a fixed-width font)
>
> ah aɬudan a loho tɛŋɛt
> SRC north.wind.MOT1 SRC sun.MOT1 argument.MOT1
>
> da hava kɪtɬa yandɛgɛ ya-dɛma
> 3SG.INAN.MOT1 3SG.AN.SESS strong.AN most be-DUB
>
> dus-ibu-tena bu
> back.and.forth-BU-REP BU
>
> dona nɛn lude kyallaya tɪŋya-tena.
> traveler.MOT1 COMIT cloak.SESS warm.INAN on.a.path-REP.
>
>
> ah aɬudan a loho ŋyehe
> SRC north.wind.MOT1 SRC sun.MOT1 agreement.MOT1
>
> da hava kɪtɬɛ yandɛgɛ ya
> 3SG.INAN.MOT1 3SG.AN.SESS strong.AN most be
>
> mɪdi-t a dona ma-vɛ ludɪdi
> 3SG.AN-CAUS SRC traveler 3SG.RAT-POSS cloak.MOT1
>
> opɛsi duso-tena.
> away.from.SRC.COMPL back.and.forth-REP.
>
>
> na ah aɬudan ha-gɛ
> and.then SRC north.wind 3P.AN-POSS2
>
> kyɛgɛ evi-bi-tena.
> attempt.MOT2 out.from.SRC-STARTED-REP.
>
>
> ah aɬudan ha-gɛ dɛlɪdiya
> SRC north.wind 3P.AN-POSS2 breath.MOT1
>
> tɪnna-tena iyɛ iyɛ.
> on.a.path.REPEATED-REP again again.
>
>
> ha-gɛ dɛlɪdiya-t
> 3P.AN-POSS2 breath.MOT1-CAUS
>
> tɪnna-tena iyɛ iyɛ
> on.a.path.REPEATED-REP again again
>
> ma-vɛ ludɪdiya ɛmmɛ-tena
> 3P.AN-POSS cloak.MOT2 inwards.to.DEST.REPEATED-REP
>
> u dona iyɛ iyɛ.
> DEST traveler again again.
>
>
> ah aɬudan ha-gɛ kyɛgɛ
> SRC north.wind 3P.AN-POSS2 attempt.MOT2
>
> evi-ŋi-tena ɪlmaŋi.
> out.from.SRC-COMPLETED-REPORTED finally.
>
>
> na a loho ha-gɛ
> and.then SRC sun.MOT1 3P.AN-POSS2
>
> kyɛgɛ evi-bi-tena.
> attempt.MOT2 out.from.SRC-STARTED-REP.
>
>
> a loho ha-gɛ loga
> SRC sun.MOT1 3P.AN-POSS2 light.MOT2
>
> ha-gɛ kyallaya evi-tena.
> 3P.AN-POSS2 heat.MOT2 out.from.SRC-REP.
>
>
> a dona ma-vɛ ludɪdi
> SRC traveler 3P.RAT-POSS cloak.MOT1
>
> opɛsi-tena yahannɪ.
> away.from.SRC.COMPL-REP soon.
>
>
> noda ah aɬudan ŋyehe
> in.conclusion SRC north.wind.MOT1 agreement.MOT2
>
> da lohava kɪtɬɛ yandɛgɛ ya evi-tena.
> 3SG.INAN.MOT2 sun.SESS strong.AN most be out.from.SRC-REP.
>
> Abbreviations used:
> 3SG third person, singular
> AN animate
> BU signals simultaneity, among other things
> CAUS causative
> COMIT comitative
> DEST destination
> DUB dubitive, for when things are in doubt
> INAN inanimate
> MOT1 first motile form
> MOT2 second motile form
> POSS possessive (default)
> POSS2 possessive (made by possessor)
> RAT rational animate (i.e. people)
> REP reported
> SESS sessile form
> SRC source
>
> number mostly not indicated, but everything is singular
> Do you need me to indicated subclauses?
>
> I am mostly happy with this now. I think this will be stable for a while.
> I guess that means I have to come up with a name for it. :-) And numbers
> for Janko.
> It has noun classes (8-14, depending on how one counts them),
> evidentiality, possessive relations, and a few other minor fun things not
> shown in this story.
> What do you think?
>
> --
> Sylvia Sotomayor
>
> The sooner I fall behind the more time I have to catch up.
>
--
Sylvia Sotomayor
The sooner I fall behind the more time I have to catch up.
Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
5a. Conlang Card Exchange
Posted by: "Padraic Brown" [email protected]
Date: Sun Jan 27, 2013 1:12 pm ((PST))
I see that Alistair put up his card, and I figure that now is a good time
to do the same.
My card is here:
http://www.frathwiki.com/Avantimannish
And since I didn't see a link here to Alistair's, I'll forward the link here:
http://eldraeverse.com/2013/01/26/a-darkest-night-card/
Padraic
Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
5b. Re: Conlang Card Exchange
Posted by: "Jeffrey Brown" [email protected]
Date: Sun Jan 27, 2013 1:25 pm ((PST))
It would be nice if there were single place to which all the cards could be
uploaded. Could the LCS create a space where people could upload them?
On Sun, Jan 27, 2013 at 3:11 PM, Padraic Brown <[email protected]> wrote:
> I see that Alistair put up his card, and I figure that now is a good time
> to do the same.
>
> My card is here:
>
> http://www.frathwiki.com/Avantimannish
>
> And since I didn't see a link here to Alistair's, I'll forward the link
> here:
>
> http://eldraeverse.com/2013/01/26/a-darkest-night-card/
>
> Padraic
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Members mailing list
> [email protected]
> http://lists.conlang.org/listinfo.cgi/members-conlang.org
>
Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
5c. Re: [LCS Members] Conlang Card Exchange
Posted by: "Alex Fink" [email protected]
Date: Sun Jan 27, 2013 1:30 pm ((PST))
On 27 January 2013 16:25, Jeffrey Brown <[email protected]> wrote:
> It would be nice if there were single place to which all the cards could be
> uploaded. Could the LCS create a space where people could upload them?
There are galleries for 2009 and 2010 at
http://exchange.conlang.org/?page_id=53
http://exchange.conlang.org/?page_id=68
so presumably alongside them would be the natural place.
Alex
Messages in this topic (3)
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