There are 15 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. Re: THEORY: Practical limit of inflection complexity?
From: Js Bangs
1b. Re: THEORY: Practical limit of inflection complexity?
From: Jörg Rhiemeier
2a. Re: The language previously known as hɛlo, Take 5
From: Sylvia Sotomayor
3a. Jan29 verb class names
From: neo gu
3b. Re: Jan29 verb class names
From: Roger Mills
3c. Re: Jan29 verb class names
From: neo gu
3d. Re: Jan29 verb class names
From: MorphemeAddict
4.1. META: Conlang-L FAQ
From: Henrik Theiling
5. ASL writing systems (and other OT subjects)
From: Mathieu Roy
6a. Re: On the fine are of verbing
From: Nikolay Ivankov
7a. Re: USAGE: Speak fast or slow?
From: Roger Mills
7b. Re: USAGE: Speak fast or slow?
From: David McCann
7c. Re: USAGE: Speak fast or slow?
From: Leonardo Castro
8a. Re: THEORY: Models of language spread.
From: Leonardo Castro
8b. Re: THEORY: Models of language spread.
From: George Corley
Messages
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1a. Re: THEORY: Practical limit of inflection complexity?
Posted by: "Js Bangs" [email protected]
Date: Thu Jan 31, 2013 7:48 pm ((PST))
On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 9:25 AM, Leonardo Castro <[email protected]>wrote:
>
> > The Indo-European languages have been trending towards morphological
> > simplicity for several millenia, now, which explains why the familiar
> > European languages are all somewhat simpler in their spoken forms than
> > their written forms. But this is by no means universal or required.
>
> And how do you think this phenomenon happens to IE languages?
>
That is a very good question, and no one really knows the answer. It has
been suggested in the past that languages go through "waves", oscillating
between the isolating and synthetic poles of the language spectrum over
thousands of years. Under this theory, Proto-IE was near the maximally
synthetic pole, and all of its daughter languages have been slowly moving
towards the isolating pole. Meanwhile, other language families have been
doing the opposite, moving from isolation to greater synthesis.
However, no one really believes this theory any more, since there's no real
explanation to be had of *why* this happens, and there are lots of
counterexamples. so we're left with the fact that nearly all of the
Indo-European languages demonstrate this trend, and we don't know why.
Nonetheless, there are still lots of non-IE languages that have gotten
*more* morphologically complex over time, and lots of languages with
complexity comparable or greater than that of Latin, Greek, Sanskrit, et al.
--
JS Bangs
[email protected]
http://jsbangs.wordpress.com
"Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle" -Philo of
Alexandria
Messages in this topic (10)
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1b. Re: THEORY: Practical limit of inflection complexity?
Posted by: "Jörg Rhiemeier" [email protected]
Date: Fri Feb 1, 2013 6:46 am ((PST))
Hallo conlangers!
On Friday 01 February 2013 04:47:42 Js Bangs wrote:
> On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 9:25 AM, Leonardo Castro
<[email protected]>wrote:
> > > The Indo-European languages have been trending towards morphological
> > >
> > > simplicity for several millenia, now, which explains why the familiar
> > > European languages are all somewhat simpler in their spoken forms than
> > > their written forms. But this is by no means universal or required.
> >
> > And how do you think this phenomenon happens to IE languages?
>
> That is a very good question, and no one really knows the answer. It has
> been suggested in the past that languages go through "waves", oscillating
> between the isolating and synthetic poles of the language spectrum over
> thousands of years. Under this theory, Proto-IE was near the maximally
> synthetic pole, and all of its daughter languages have been slowly moving
> towards the isolating pole. Meanwhile, other language families have been
> doing the opposite, moving from isolation to greater synthesis.
>
> However, no one really believes this theory any more, since there's no real
> explanation to be had of *why* this happens, and there are lots of
> counterexamples. so we're left with the fact that nearly all of the
> Indo-European languages demonstrate this trend, and we don't know why.
Also, the 19th-century "analytic/agglutinating/fusional" typology
is better applied to subsystems of a language rather than to whole
languages. There are many languages which combine all three. For
example, Spanish is widely considered a fusional language, but while
this holds for its verbs, the nouns express number agglutinatively
and case analytically.
> Nonetheless, there are still lots of non-IE languages that have gotten
> *more* morphologically complex over time, and lots of languages with
> complexity comparable or greater than that of Latin, Greek, Sanskrit, et
> al.
Yep. Just take a grand tour of North America, and you will find
lots of indigenous languages that leave Sanskrit in the dust when
it comes to morphological complexity.
--
... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
http://www.joerg-rhiemeier.de/Conlang/index.html
"Bêsel asa Éam, a Éam atha cvanthal a cvanth atha Éamal." - SiM 1:1
Messages in this topic (10)
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2a. Re: The language previously known as hɛlo, Take 5
Posted by: "Sylvia Sotomayor" [email protected]
Date: Thu Jan 31, 2013 7:53 pm ((PST))
On Wed, Jan 30, 2013 at 7:01 PM, neo gu <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Tue, 29 Jan 2013 17:09:47 +0100, Jörg Rhiemeier <[email protected]>
> wrote:
> >Any chance we will see a grammar sketch soon? I find it easier
> >to analyse a glossed text sample when I have an overview of the
> >paradigms involved at hand.
>
> I agree. I do much better with grammars than with texts. I tried to make a
> model in order to understand your text, but I ended up creating something
> quite different. My Jan29 is your fault, Sylvia.
>
I am working on a grammar. In my copious spare time. And thank you for the
compliment! I like it when it's all my fault. :-)
-S
--
Sylvia Sotomayor
The sooner I fall behind the more time I have to catch up.
Messages in this topic (11)
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3a. Jan29 verb class names
Posted by: "neo gu" [email protected]
Date: Thu Jan 31, 2013 7:56 pm ((PST))
So instead of working on Jan12 vocabulary or Jan19, I've spent the last couple
days on Jan29. Jan29 is one of theose conlangs where all verbs are univalent:
most words are pairs of noun or pronoun plus verb or case. The verbs come in
different classes according to the role of the arguments they're paired with.
There are 5 classes:
• verbs that combine with the subject: large, fall, run
• verbs that combine with the locatee: inside *
• verbs that combine with the patient: throw, break
• verbs that combine with the experiencer: see, think
• verbs that combine with the theme: give, say
* I tried combining these with the location noun first, but locatee actually
works better.
What I'm trying to decide now before I go too far is what to call each class
and what single-letter abbreviation to use in the vocabulary (after V for
verb). So, suggestions are welcome! Also, I can provide example sentences if
desired. They might be interesting. (Meanwhile, I need to come up with a
phonology.)
Messages in this topic (4)
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3b. Re: Jan29 verb class names
Posted by: "Roger Mills" [email protected]
Date: Fri Feb 1, 2013 8:53 am ((PST))
--- On Thu, 1/31/13, neo gu <[email protected]> wrote:
So instead of working on Jan12 vocabulary or Jan19, I've spent the last couple
days on Jan29. Jan29 is one of theose conlangs where all verbs are univalent:
most words are pairs of noun or pronoun plus verb or case. The verbs come in
different classes according to the role of the arguments they're paired with.
There are 5 classes:
• verbs that combine with the subject: large, fall, run
• verbs that combine with the locatee: inside *
• verbs that combine with the patient: throw, break
• verbs that combine with the experiencer: see, think
• verbs that combine with the theme: give, say
* I tried combining these with the location noun first, but locatee actually
works better.
What I'm trying to decide now before I go too far is what to call each class
and what single-letter abbreviation to use in the vocabulary (after V for
verb). So, suggestions are welcome! Also, I can provide example sentences if
desired. They might be interesting. (Meanwhile, I need to come up with a
phonology.)
========================================
Are "subject, locatee, patient, experincer, theme" etc. distinct cases?
Examples are always helpful ....................:-)
Messages in this topic (4)
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3c. Re: Jan29 verb class names
Posted by: "neo gu" [email protected]
Date: Fri Feb 1, 2013 9:27 am ((PST))
On Fri, 1 Feb 2013 08:53:41 -0800, Roger Mills <[email protected]> wrote:
>--- On Thu, 1/31/13, neo gu <[email protected]> wrote:
>So instead of working on Jan12 vocabulary or Jan19, I've spent the last couple
>days on Jan29. Jan29 is one of theose conlangs where all verbs are univalent:
>most words are pairs of noun or pronoun plus verb or case. The verbs come in
>different classes according to the role of the arguments they're paired with.
>There are 5 classes:
>
>• verbs that combine with the subject: large, fall, run
>• verbs that combine with the locatee: inside *
>• verbs that combine with the patient: throw, break
>• verbs that combine with the experiencer: see, think
>• verbs that combine with the theme: give, say
>
>* I tried combining these with the location noun first, but locatee actually
>works better.
>
>What I'm trying to decide now before I go too far is what to call each class
>and what single-letter abbreviation to use in the vocabulary (after V for
>verb). So, suggestions are welcome! Also, I can provide example sentences if
>desired. They might be interesting. (Meanwhile, I need to come up with a
>phonology.)
>========================================
>
>Are "subject, locatee, patient, experincer, theme" etc. distinct cases?
>Examples are always helpful ....................:-)
Actually, no, now that I think about it. It's the other nouns that take the
case marking. Some quick examples:
dog-run Rel-large. "The large dog ran."
cat-inside house-Loc. "The cat is inside the house."
rock-throw boy-Agt Sub-Rsl window-break. "The boy threw the rock, breaking the
window."
1S-see boy-Img. "I saw the boy."
man-Agt Rfx-Abl girl-All IndS-book. "The man gave the girl a book."
Mary-Agt 1S-hear Sub-say picture-fall. "Mary told me that the picture fell."
Rel- relative pronoun
Rfx- refers to agent
Sub- begins subordinate clause
-Loc location
-Agt agent
-Rsl result
-Img what's perceived
-Abl source
-All destination
However, the syntax doesn't require any given word to be in the clause. Both
rock-throw and boy-Agt are complete sentences by themselves.
Messages in this topic (4)
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3d. Re: Jan29 verb class names
Posted by: "MorphemeAddict" [email protected]
Date: Fri Feb 1, 2013 10:21 am ((PST))
On Thu, Jan 31, 2013 at 10:56 PM, neo gu <[email protected]> wrote:
> So instead of working on Jan12 vocabulary or Jan19, I've spent the last
> couple days on Jan29. Jan29 is one of theose conlangs where all verbs are
> univalent: most words are pairs of noun or pronoun plus verb or case. The
> verbs come in different classes according to the role of the arguments
> they're paired with. There are 5 classes:
>
> • verbs that combine with the subject: large, fall, run
> • verbs that combine with the locatee: inside *
> • verbs that combine with the patient: throw, break
> • verbs that combine with the experiencer: see, think
> • verbs that combine with the theme: give, say
>
> * I tried combining these with the location noun first, but locatee
> actually works better.
>
> What I'm trying to decide now before I go too far is what to call each
> class and what single-letter abbreviation to use in the vocabulary (after V
> for verb).
You could just number the verb classes, v1, v2, etc.
stevo
> So, suggestions are welcome! Also, I can provide example sentences if
> desired. They might be interesting. (Meanwhile, I need to come up with a
> phonology.)
>
Messages in this topic (4)
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4.1. META: Conlang-L FAQ
Posted by: "Henrik Theiling" [email protected]
Date: Thu Jan 31, 2013 8:05 pm ((PST))
The following is the de facto Conlang-L FAQ, hosted at:
http://wiki.frath.net/Conlang-L_FAQ
This is automatically posted once a month, copied directly from that page,
for the benefit of new members. If you would like to change it, please
edit it at the link above.
**Henrik
==Where to get Conlang-L==
The official archives are at http://listserv.brown.edu/archives/conlang.html .
>From there, you can search the archives, get an RSS feed, manage your
subscription, etc.
It's also the ONLY place you can go to sign up and post things to the list.
A read-only archive with a nicer user interface is at
http://archives.conlang.info/ . [As of April 2009 this archive has ceased
mirroring new messages. Henrik Theiling knows about the problem and has said
he's planning to fix it but hasn't had time to do so yet.]
Conlang-L is also _mirrored_ as a Yahoo group, but there is no way to have
posts to the Yahoo group sent to the actual list. Do *not* subscribe to the
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http://listserv.brown.edu/archives/conlang.html instead!
==A brief history of the list==
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The original note reads in part:
''By agreement with John Ross, the CONLANG mailing list has been moved to
diku.dk, the mail hub of the CS Department of the University of Copenhagen.
Send all submissions to CONLANG at diku dot dk. The address at buphy still
works, but it is just an alias for the new list.''
''Lars Mathiesen (U of Copenhagen CS Dept) (Humour NOT marked)''
(Note that the submission address in that historical note '''NO LONGER
WORKS'''.)
Later, growing traffic and changes at the university necessitated a move. In
January–February of 1997 the list moved to its current home at Brown
University's LISTSERV server. David Durand made the move and actively
moderated the list from that point on.
Before the move, threads centered on debates on the relative merits of
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(Dispassionate discussion of auxlangs is welcome.)
In ??? John Cowan took over actual moderation duties, as "Lord of the
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Later the torch was passed to Henrik Theiling.
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Posters are encouraged to consolidate several shorter replies on a single
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==Subject Topic Tags==
In the subject line of a post, you can mark the post with one of the following
tags. Tags are only recognised if a colon follows immediately: no other
decoration (e.g. brackets, an extra space) should be used. Any 'Re:' etc. is
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CHAT: Is the world really round?
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Finally, there are two meta-tags:
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Example:
JAMA says flat earth leads to flat [@] (was CHAT: Is the world really round?)
Note that tags ARE included after the "was", but "Re:" is NOT, nor is
[CONLANG].
==Acronyms==
List of acronyms specific to the Conlang Mailing List:
* AFMCL - "As for my conlang.."
** AFMOCL - "As for my own conlang"
* ANADEW - "A natlang's already dunnit, except worse"
* ANADEWism - Something you thought was unique, but ANADEW
* IML - "in my 'lect" (dialect or [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idiolect
idiolect], depending on context)
* LCC - the [http://conference.conlang.org Language Creation Conference]
* LCS - the [http://conlang.org Language Creation Society]
* NCNC - "No cross, no crown". In the context of the list, "don't discuss
religion or politics"
([http://recycledknowledge.blogspot.com/2006/05/no-cross-no-crown.html not its
more general meaning]).
* NLF2DWS or NLWS - Non-linear [fully 2-dimensional] writing system
* YAEPT (the original acronym) - Yet Another English Pronunciation Thread
** YADPT ... Dutch Pronunciation ...
** YAGPT ... German Pronunciation ...
** YAEGT ... English Grammar ...
** YAEUT ... English Usage ...
** general pattern: YA(Language)(Topic)T
Acronyms not on this list might be in general usage: try
[http://www.google.com/search?q=define%3Aafaict Google's define:] or
[http://www.acronymfinder.com/ Acronym Finder].
==Other conlang-specific vocabulary==
>From [http://cassowary.free.fr/Linguistics/Conlang%20Dictionary/ here] and
[http://arthaey.mine.nu/~arthaey/conlang/faq.html here]. See also [[Conlang
terminology]].
con__
* constructed __ (generally a contraction): conlang, conworld, conhistory,
conculture, ...
__lang
* a language characterised by ___ (generally a contraction): conlang, artlang,
auxlang, ...
[[artlang]]
# A language constructed for the beauty or fun of doing so. [From art(istic) +
lang(uage)]
# (See conlang) [From art(ificial) + lang(uage)]
[[auxlang]]
* A language constructed to replace or complement natlangs to facilitate
cross-linguistic communication. [From aux(iliary) + lang(uage)]
concultural [From con(structed) + cultur(e) + al]
* Adjective form of "conculture".
[[conculture]] [From con(structed) + culture]
* A fictional culture created as a backdrop to a conlang. See also "conworld".
[[conlang]] [From con(structed) + lang(uage)]
# n. A constructed language
# v. To construct a language
[[CONLANG]] (all caps), conlang-l, Conlang-L, or CONLANG-L
* A very active conlang mailing list hosted by brown.edu, and currently
operated by Henrik Theiling
[[conworld]] [From con(structed) + world]
* A fictional world created to host a conlang or conculture. See also
"conculture".
[[engelang]] /ˈendʒlæŋ/ [From eng(ineered) + lang(uage)]
* A conlang that is designed to certain criteria, such that it is objectively
testable whether the criteria are met or not. This is different from claiming
that the criteria themselves are 'objective'. For example, the Lojban/Loglan
roots are designed to be maximally recognisable to the speakers of the
(numerically) largest languages in the world in proportion to the number of
speakers. It is not a matter of taste whether this criterion is met; it is
something that can be tested. (by John Cowan) [From eng(ineered) + lang(uage)]
etabnannery /raːmnænəɹi/ (rare)
* The state of appearing entirely unpredictable, but, upon closer analysis,
failing at even being that. [From Etá̄bnann(i), a conlang by Tristan McLeay,
which was supposed to have an unpredictable orthography, but ended up just
having a confusing one. Damn people trying to make patterns everywhere. At
least it's a bugger to typeset!... errm... back to the derivation + -ery]
maggelity /məˈgɛlɪti/ (rare) [From Maggel, a conlang by Christophe
Grandsire which has a rarely predictable orthography]
# The state of being entirely unpredictable. (Tristan McLeay)
# The state of being regularly unpredictable, such as to horribly confuse
anyone unfamiliar with the language, lulling them into a full sense of
security before pointing out, cartoon-character-style, that the ground no
longer exists where they're standing. (Tristan McLeay and H. S. Teoh)
Maggel's Paradox (rare)
* Your radical ideas have already occurred to others. (Muke Tever)
[[natlang]] [From nat(ural) + lang(uage)]
# A natural language, i.e., one that naturally developed in the world, as
opposed to a conlang.
ObConlang (or ObCL)
* Just before something about conlanging in an otherwise off-topic post.
* From ob(ligatory) + conlang (i.e., an obligatory on-topic comment about
conlangs just so that the post isn't completely off-topic).
[[translation relay]]
* A game similar to Telephone or Chinese Whispers, wherein the participants
translate a passage one at a time, in serial, into their own languages - and
then marvel at how far from the original the translations have gotten.
==CXS (Conlang X-SAMPA)==
[[CXS]] is a version of X-SAMPA for use on the CONLANG mailing list. X-SAMPA
is a way to write the IPA (International Phonetic Alphabet) using normal
plain-ASCII text that everyone can read.
* [http://www.theiling.de/ipa/ Theiling Online: Conlang X-Sampa (CXS)] -
includes CXS-to-IPA conversion chart
* [http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Conlang/Appendix/CXS CXS at Wikibooks]
==Related lists==
The Auxlang list, mentioned above, is dedicated to international auxiliary
languages. Its archives and subscription interface are at
http://listserv.brown.edu/archives/auxlang.html .
The list [email protected] is dedicated to the planning and
conducting of [[conlang relay]]s, q.v.
==Resources==
* [http://www.arthaey.com/conlang/faq.html Arthaey's Conlang FAQ]
* [http://www.langmaker.com LangMaker] - repository of many conlang
"biographies"
* [http://wiki.frath.net Frath Wiki] - a similar site, and host of the
Conlang-L (wikified) FAQ
* [http://www.omniglot.com Omniglot] - which has information on more writing
systems than you thought could exist
{{Conlangculture}}
[[Category:Terminology]]
Messages in this topic (31)
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5. ASL writing systems (and other OT subjects)
Posted by: "Mathieu Roy" [email protected]
Date: Thu Jan 31, 2013 8:20 pm ((PST))
What do you think of the different writing systems that have been created since
1825? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Sign_Language#Writing_systems Which
one is your favorite and why?
What is the percentage of people signing in ASL that can also write in this
language?
[The rest of this email is off topic. But your answers would be appreciate.]
Some of my friends and I are starting to learn ASL. So I have some questions
related to this language.
As far as you know and in your experience...
How many people in Quebec know ASL in comparison to LSQ?
How good can a LSQ (language des signes du Québec) signer understand an ASL
signer and vice versa?
How many people know ASL as a second language? and as a second signing
language? (in the world)
Is there a higher, lower or similar percentage of people in the world
communicating/knowing a sign language (not necessarily ASL) now than let's say
50 or 100 years ago?
Are non-deaf people generally welcome in deaf communities?
What are your favorite web sites and/or books to learn ASL?
I have started to watch some videos here:
http://www.youtube.com/user/BYUFanatic/videos
And I also saw these websites: http://www.aslpro.com/, http://www.alldeaf.com/,
and http://www.handspeak.com/word/search.php
Thanks,
Mathieu
Messages in this topic (1)
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6a. Re: On the fine are of verbing
Posted by: "Nikolay Ivankov" [email protected]
Date: Fri Feb 1, 2013 2:19 am ((PST))
No, it was a nounification of the verb!
28.01.2013 21:46 ������������ "Gary Shannon" <[email protected]> �������:
> That was a stupid typo. S/B "The fine ART of verbing".
>
> --gary
>
> On Mon, Jan 28, 2013 at 12:33 PM, David Peterson <[email protected]>
> wrote:
> > And no one yet has commented on the fine "are" of verbing...?
> >
> > David Peterson
> > LCS President
> > [email protected]
> > www.conlang.org
>
Messages in this topic (12)
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7a. Re: USAGE: Speak fast or slow?
Posted by: "Roger Mills" [email protected]
Date: Fri Feb 1, 2013 8:47 am ((PST))
--- On Wed, 1/30/13, Leonardo Castro <[email protected]> wrote:
I'm in Paris right now and I've noted that, while some Brazilian
friends of mine that are also here tend to speak French faster making
many mistakes, I speak it more slower because I think more about how I
should build the sentences right. But I feel that sometimes people
might be impatient with such a slow speech.
Which approach do you think is better while speaking foreign languages?
RM Speak as fast as you ability allows.... I'm sure that in France, if you make
a mistake they will correct you :-))))
--------------------------------
BTW, sometimes I'm just prepared to speak some verb in the Future
tense but then I remember the discussion about French diglossia in
this list and I recede, but I just can rapidly remember how to speak
in an informal way what I just wanted to speak. Especially, I spend
sometimes thinking "Which auxiliar verb should I use, 'avoir' or
'être'?").
RM The rule of thumb IIRC is: avoir with transitive verbs, être with
intransitives. I think the same in Italian, as well as German, but it's hard to
keep that in mind if you're a less-than-fluent speaker. But I wonder if Fr.,
Ital, Germ. etc speakers make mistakes sometimes too....??? It's not the rule
in Span. or Port. thank G*d.
Messages in this topic (4)
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7b. Re: USAGE: Speak fast or slow?
Posted by: "David McCann" [email protected]
Date: Fri Feb 1, 2013 9:20 am ((PST))
On Fri, 1 Feb 2013 08:47:34 -0800
Roger Mills <[email protected]> wrote:
> RM The rule of thumb IIRC is: avoir with transitive verbs, être with
> intransitives. I think the same in Italian, as well as German, but
> it's hard to keep that in mind if you're a less-than-fluent speaker.
> But I wonder if Fr., Ital, Germ. etc speakers make mistakes sometimes
> too....??? It's not the rule in Span. or Port. thank G*d.
That's the Italian rule. Only a subset of French intransitives take
être: verbs of motion, birth, and death, plus the reflexives. Rhaetian
is similar. I've read that some French speakers have followed Spanish
and Rumanian in ditching être completely.
Messages in this topic (4)
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7c. Re: USAGE: Speak fast or slow?
Posted by: "Leonardo Castro" [email protected]
Date: Fri Feb 1, 2013 9:34 am ((PST))
2013/2/1 Roger Mills <[email protected]>:
> --- On Wed, 1/30/13, Leonardo Castro <[email protected]> wrote:
> [...]
> BTW, sometimes I'm just prepared to speak some verb in the Future
> tense but then I remember the discussion about French diglossia in
> this list and I recede, but I just can rapidly remember how to speak
> in an informal way what I just wanted to speak. Especially, I spend
> sometimes thinking "Which auxiliar verb should I use, 'avoir' or
> 'être'?").
>
> RM The rule of thumb IIRC is: avoir with transitive verbs, être with
> intransitives. I think the same in Italian,
Now that you said it, I note that Italian and French work similarly in
this regard. Having studied Italian by myself and French at a language
school, I was exposed to an explicit rule only for French.
Nonetheless, I have correctly made the distinction in many cases by
means of imitation.
Particularly, the song "Merica-Merica", anthem of the Italian
immigrants in Brazil, was very useful since it has "dalla Italia noi
siamo partiti" and "e alla Merica noi siamo arrivati". "Merica" is
"America" in the Venetian dialect, so you see that "America" was
Brazil (too) for them (coming back to the America=USA discussion):
http://italiasempre.com/verita/merica-merica1.htm
> as well as German, but it's hard to keep that in mind if you're a
> less-than-fluent speaker. But I wonder if Fr., Ital, Germ. etc speakers make
> mistakes sometimes too....??? It's not the rule in Span. or Port. thank G*d.
On the other hand, Span. and Port. have more distinct "ser" and
"estar" verbs. This reminds me that once I was talking with a
professor of mine who was married with a Japanese woman. When I
commented that Japanese is very easy to pronounce, he answered: "Yes,
but it seems that there is a law of conservation of complexity,
because, on the other hand, it's very difficult to deal with the
formalities of Japanese language."
Messages in this topic (4)
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8a. Re: THEORY: Models of language spread.
Posted by: "Leonardo Castro" [email protected]
Date: Fri Feb 1, 2013 10:15 am ((PST))
Nobody has commented on this topic, I keep commenting myself. :-)
I am wondering if the following features of two of the different
algorithms described could be combined to simulate the effect of
government on language shift:
> * language "fitness" defined as the sum of the capabilities (natural
> resources) of all
> sites that language occupies;
[...]
> * with a certain probability, a person discards the mother language
> and adopts the language of another person.
I imagined something like a state controlling the access to natural
(and artifitial) resources on an area, so stimulating people on that
area to shift their language to the state's official language.
I've noted that many people speak English even here in Paris, either
at the university with foreign students or in turistic zones.
Sometimes some of them start speaking English to me when they note I'm
a foreigner, even when I started the conversation in French. So I
wondered if this type of thing could slowly take the whole world to
shift language towards English. I came to the conclusion that what
avoids this shift in many countries is that English (or whatever
"cultured-people" language) is not the official language, so the local
language keeps being more useful. It's not the case of some Amerindian
students I have at the university that must know Portuguese to access
the classes' information.
BTW, English seems to be the new "non-Barbarian language" as Greek and
Latin were before. Every cultured person is expected to know English.
Até mais!
Leonardo
2013/1/30 Leonardo Castro <[email protected]>:
> I would like to hear some comments on how realistic do you think that
> the assumptions of computational simulation of language spread are:
>
> -> Viviane model [1]:
>
> * language simply labelled by an integer number;
> * heterogeneous environment with square cells of different
> "capabilities" (related to natural resources) homogeneous distributed
> between 0 and 1;
> * language "fitness" defined as the sum of the capabilities of all
> sites that language occupies;
> * probability of occupying a new neighbour site directly proportional
> to the language fitness and to new site capability;
> * probablility of language mutation (creating a new language labelled
> with another unused integer) inversely proportional to its fitness.
>
> -> Modified Vivane model [2]:
>
> * each language is described as a 16-bits string;
> * when a language occupies a new site, one of its bits can change;
> * if the bit strings of the languages of two sites are the same, they
> are the same language (so I presume that the original language can be
> reobtained from one of its mutated versions);
> * as "there are more bad places than good ones for people to live",
> the capabities C of the sites are distributed inhomogeneously with
> frequency proportional to 1/C;
> * in each time step, they choose two sites and occupie that of higher
> capability C.
>
> -> Schulze model [3]:
>
> * simulation of N people initially speaking the same language (or grammar);
> * each language (grammar) is described as having F features with Q
> possible values each one;
> * each feature changes with probability p in each iteraction;
> * with probability q the mutation above is not random, but a "copy" of
> the value of a neighbour person;
> * with probability (1-xˆ2)*r, a person discards the mother language
> and adopts the language of another person.
>
> ---
>
> [1] http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/journal/03784371/361/1 (article # 30)
> [2] http://arxiv.org/abs/physics/0608204
> [3] http://arxiv.org/abs/0704.0691
>
> Até mais!
>
> Leonardo
Messages in this topic (3)
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8b. Re: THEORY: Models of language spread.
Posted by: "George Corley" [email protected]
Date: Fri Feb 1, 2013 11:33 am ((PST))
On Fri, Feb 1, 2013 at 12:15 PM, Leonardo Castro <[email protected]>wrote:
> Nobody has commented on this topic, I keep commenting myself. :-)
>
> I am wondering if the following features of two of the different
> algorithms described could be combined to simulate the effect of
> government on language shift:
>
> > * language "fitness" defined as the sum of the capabilities (natural
> resources) of all
> > sites that language occupies;
> [...]
> > * with a certain probability, a person discards the mother language
> > and adopts the language of another person.
>
The main issue is that people generally don't discard their mother
language, they become bilingual. With enough pressure, this may lead to
the next generation switching languages entirely, but the process takes a
bit of time.
> I imagined something like a state controlling the access to natural
> (and artifitial) resources on an area, so stimulating people on that
> area to shift their language to the state's official language.
>
Economic reasons are an important driver of language change, but there is
also military power and cultural prestige. Latin lingered on far past
Rome's height because it had prestige among educated classes, though for
much of that time it had no native speakers.
> I've noted that many people speak English even here in Paris, either
> at the university with foreign students or in turistic zones.
> Sometimes some of them start speaking English to me when they note I'm
> a foreigner, even when I started the conversation in French. So I
> wondered if this type of thing could slowly take the whole world to
> shift language towards English. I came to the conclusion that what
> avoids this shift in many countries is that English (or whatever
> "cultured-people" language) is not the official language, so the local
> language keeps being more useful. It's not the case of some Amerindian
> students I have at the university that must know Portuguese to access
> the classes' information.
>
Having formal official status helps, but it's not necessary for a language
to survive. One's mother tongue is very closely linked to cultural
identity. As long as people have a strong identity and a healthy pride in
their culture, they will at least attempt to teach their native language to
their children. Very often the decline of a language is accompanied by a
sense among speakers that their language is "not good enough", that
learning some other language for economic reasons is more important that
having children learn the mother tongue. But if the Academie Francaise was
abolished tomorrow and France decided to get rid of its official language,
people in France would still speak French for cultural reasons, though
there might be more freedom for some minority languages. After all, people
in the US can be very passionate about English, even though we have never
had an official language.
> BTW, English seems to be the new "non-Barbarian language" as Greek and
> Latin were before. Every cultured person is expected to know English.
Yes. Again, English has prestige. That prestige was gained through
military and economic power, and is maintained with that power along with
the popularity of English-language cultural products (movies, music, books,
etc.), but I imagine that when it falls it will follow a similar course to
Latin -- lingering around after the Anglophone powers have retreated as a
lingua franca of elites before eventually dying.
Messages in this topic (3)
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