There are 14 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. New Fiat Lingua
From: David Peterson
1b. Re: New Fiat Lingua
From: Rich Harrison
1c. Re: New Fiat Lingua
From: David Peterson
2a. Re: ASL writing systems (and other OT subjects)
From: Arthaey Angosii
2b. Re: ASL writing systems (and other OT subjects)
From: Alex Bicksler
3a. English ambiguity (rage comic)
From: Mathieu Roy
3b. Re: English ambiguity (rage comic)
From: Alex Bicksler
4a. Re: Jan29 verb class names
From: neo gu
5a. Not really a conlang...
From: Jeffrey Brown
5b. Re: Not really a conlang...
From: Dustfinger Batailleur
5c. Re: Not really a conlang...
From: J. M. DeSantis
5d. Re: Not really a conlang...
From: MorphemeAddict
5e. Re: Not really a conlang...
From: MorphemeAddict
6a. Re: vowels: five to three?
From: Iuhan Culmærija
Messages
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1a. New Fiat Lingua
Posted by: "David Peterson" [email protected]
Date: Fri Feb 1, 2013 9:25 pm ((PST))
Thanks to a contact of John Quijada's, this month's Fiat Lingua features a
discussion about an old Armenian conlang written by James Russell from Harvard.
It's pretty rare to find a *new* 19th century conlang, so I feel fortunate that
we got a hold of this! You can read the article here:
http://fiatlingua.org/2013/02/
David Peterson
LCS President
[email protected]
www.conlang.org
Messages in this topic (3)
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1b. Re: New Fiat Lingua
Posted by: "Rich Harrison" [email protected]
Date: Sat Feb 2, 2013 10:42 am ((PST))
Interesting article, written in a fascinating style of English, somewhat
reminiscent of 19th century magazine articles - intensely enthusiastic and
eager to use as much vocabulary as possible. Quite stimulating!
A typographical question: on page 13 there is a table of sentences like this...
No. 2. Iandizer, Heb. y, < >, Ar. y, EantizÄr.
I don't see anything between the angle brackets. Is there a glyph in that spot
which I am unable to see due to not having a particular font in my computer, or
something?
Messages in this topic (3)
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1c. Re: New Fiat Lingua
Posted by: "David Peterson" [email protected]
Date: Sat Feb 2, 2013 11:23 am ((PST))
I too noticed this and asked him about it. He said he didn't bother to
reproduce the symbols that were in the book he had, which I thought was
unfortunate (and I knew that as soon as anyone read it, that this would be the
first question). Since Fiat Lingua is built to take updates, I thought I'd let
this one go, and then maybe follow up with him later to see if I could help in
this regard. My goal is to get the symbols inserted within a few months
(hopefully).
David Peterson
LCS President
[email protected]
www.conlang.org
On Feb 2, 2013, at 10:42 AM, Rich Harrison <[email protected]> wrote:
> Interesting article, written in a fascinating style of English, somewhat
> reminiscent of 19th century magazine articles - intensely enthusiastic and
> eager to use as much vocabulary as possible. Quite stimulating!
>
> A typographical question: on page 13 there is a table of sentences like
> this...
> No. 2. Iandizer, Heb. y, < >, Ar. y, EantizÄr.
>
> I don't see anything between the angle brackets. Is there a glyph in that
> spot which I am unable to see due to not having a particular font in my
> computer, or something?
Messages in this topic (3)
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2a. Re: ASL writing systems (and other OT subjects)
Posted by: "Arthaey Angosii" [email protected]
Date: Fri Feb 1, 2013 10:47 pm ((PST))
On Thu, Jan 31, 2013 at 8:20 PM, Mathieu Roy <[email protected]> wrote:
> What do you think of the different writing systems that have been created
> since 1825?
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Sign_Language#Writing_systems
Check out the previous email threads on this topic from March 2012:
"Written Form of American Sign Language":
http://listserv.brown.edu/archives/cgi-bin/wa?A1=ind1203d&L=conlang#28
"Sutton SignWritting":
http://listserv.brown.edu/archives/cgi-bin/wa?A1=ind1203d&L=conlang#23
> Which one is your favorite and why?
I only seriously considered Sutton SignWritting and si5s, because the
other systems seem better suited to narrow transcription needed for
linguistics work, but not the broad transcription I'd want to see for
an everyday writing system. (But see David Peterson's well-written
critique in the previous email threads.)
SignWriting is a little older and has a larger following, including
international support by other sign language communities. However, I
really just hate how it looks like a bunch of diagrams, not like a
"real" writing system. This is of course purely an aesthetic,
subjective thing, but there it is. You can read more about it here:
http://www.signwriting.org/
si5s is newer and has the "political" benefit of being invented by a
Deaf person (which is not true of SignWriting). It also just looks
more like a naturalistic writing system to me. But because it's so
much newer, it is very much still evolving. I'm actually using si5s to
take notes in my ASL class and to make flashcards for myself; I'm also
talking with one of the si5s textbook authors about making a font &
IME(s).
Sites about si5s:
http://www.si5s.org/
http://aslized.org/
http://www.aslwrite.com/
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/aslwrite
> What is the percentage of people signing in ASL that can also write in this
> language?
Very very few, regardless of which written form of ASL you're talking
about. As you can see from the previous conversation we'd had about
written ASL, there is a lot of resistance within the American Deaf
community to the very idea of a written form of the language, much
less consensus about *which* form to use.
> Are non-deaf people generally welcome in deaf communities?
In my (limited) experience with ASL Deaf groups, whether hearing
people are welcome is entirely dependent on said hearing people's
attitudes. Educate yourself on Deaf culture, what it's like (both now
and in past generations), and disabuse yourself of the common
misconceptions. If you treat it like any other cultural & linguistic
minority, you should be okay.
Note that there are some Deaf jerks â just like there are hearing
jerks. But by and large, I've had great experiences chatting with my
(very beginner!) ASL in Deaf groups. Just be polite and respectful,
y'know? :)
> What are your favorite web sites and/or books to learn ASL?
http://www.lifeprint.com/
http://asl.ms/
> And I also saw these websites: http://www.aslpro.com/,
> http://www.alldeaf.com/, and http://www.handspeak.com/word/search.php
The All Deaf forums are a great place to lurk and learn about Deaf
culture. Be prepared to read some shocking stories of the crap they
have to put up with! :(
--
AA
http://conlang.arthaey.com
Messages in this topic (3)
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2b. Re: ASL writing systems (and other OT subjects)
Posted by: "Alex Bicksler" [email protected]
Date: Sat Feb 2, 2013 2:14 pm ((PST))
I've never seen si5s before, but it's real pretty.
I'd love to see a larger text in it, like maybe paragraph to page length.
Messages in this topic (3)
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3a. English ambiguity (rage comic)
Posted by: "Mathieu Roy" [email protected]
Date: Sat Feb 2, 2013 12:24 am ((PST))
English ambiguity (rage comic):
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=442247885845429&set=a.108977109172510.11644.107846889285532&type=1&theater
Messages in this topic (2)
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3b. Re: English ambiguity (rage comic)
Posted by: "Alex Bicksler" [email protected]
Date: Sat Feb 2, 2013 1:52 pm ((PST))
Hilarious.
But hey, that's Cyanide and Happiness, a pretty well-established webcomic,
not a rage comic.
:Alex Bicksler
On Sat, Feb 2, 2013 at 12:24 AM, Mathieu Roy <[email protected]>wrote:
> English ambiguity (rage comic):
>
> https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=442247885845429&set=a.108977109172510.11644.107846889285532&type=1&theater
>
Messages in this topic (2)
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4a. Re: Jan29 verb class names
Posted by: "neo gu" [email protected]
Date: Sat Feb 2, 2013 9:11 am ((PST))
On Fri, 1 Feb 2013 13:20:52 -0500, MorphemeAddict <[email protected]> wrote:
>On Thu, Jan 31, 2013 at 10:56 PM, neo gu <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> So instead of working on Jan12 vocabulary or Jan19, I've spent the last
>> couple days on Jan29. Jan29 is one of theose conlangs where all verbs are
>> univalent: most words are pairs of noun or pronoun plus verb or case. The
>> verbs come in different classes according to the role of the arguments
>> they're paired with. There are 5 classes:
>>
>> ⢠verbs that combine with the subject: large, fall, run
>> ⢠verbs that combine with the locatee: inside *
>> ⢠verbs that combine with the patient: throw, break
>> ⢠verbs that combine with the experiencer: see, think
>> ⢠verbs that combine with the theme: give, say
>>
>> * I tried combining these with the location noun first, but locatee
>> actually works better.
>>
>> What I'm trying to decide now before I go too far is what to call each
>> class and what single-letter abbreviation to use in the vocabulary (after V
>> for verb).
>
>
>You could just number the verb classes, v1, v2, etc.
>
>stevo
Yes, but I'd prefer something mnemonic.
Messages in this topic (5)
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5a. Not really a conlang...
Posted by: "Jeffrey Brown" [email protected]
Date: Sat Feb 2, 2013 11:10 am ((PST))
Some time ago, I read a paper on Fiat Lingua by Gary Shannon about
collaborative conlangs. He concluded that, except under special
circumstance, these would not be likely. One of the circumstances he
mentioned is that a conlang might live if it were used within the context
of a religious community.
I thought to myself, Im a member of a religious community [the Bahai
Faith], why not create a conlang for them? Since many of the writings of
the Bahai Faith are in Arabic (very difficult, formal Arabic), I thought I
could create something that would make the texts more accessible to others.
(Actually, I had been mulling this over before I read Garys paper, but
that gave me the impetus to get to work.)
Im not starry-eyed about this. I doubt that this conlang will ever gain
any traction. The work of conlangers is almost always doomed to be
underappreciated (as we all know too well).
Essentially what I did was to create a conlang based on a single source
language: Arabic. I simplified and regularized the grammar, and adopted a
Romanized alphabet. I call it Sim-Arabic (because Im not very
imaginative when it comes to naming my conlangs).
If youre interested, Id appreciate it if you would take a look and return
comments. (To avoid the delay caused by the email digest, please CC my
address in your reply.) It is up on my web page at:
http://www.jeffreyrbrown.info/SimArabic
(and thank you to all who gave advice on writing a primer).
Messages in this topic (5)
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5b. Re: Not really a conlang...
Posted by: "Dustfinger Batailleur" [email protected]
Date: Sat Feb 2, 2013 12:05 pm ((PST))
I though the Baha'i faith was most interested in Esperanto, conlang-wise.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esperanto#Bah.C3.A1.27.C3.AD_Faith
On 2 February 2013 14:10, Jeffrey Brown <[email protected]> wrote:
> Some time ago, I read a paper on âFiat Linguaâ by Gary Shannon about
> collaborative conlangs. He concluded that, except under special
> circumstance, these would not be likely. One of the circumstances he
> mentioned is that a conlang might âliveâ if it were used within the
> context
> of a religious community.
>
> I thought to myself, âIâm a member of a religious community [the Bahaâi
> Faith], why not create a conlang for them?â Since many of the writings of
> the Bahaâi Faith are in Arabic (very difficult, formal Arabic), I thought I
> could create something that would make the texts more accessible to others.
> (Actually, I had been mulling this over before I read Garyâs paper, but
> that gave me the impetus to get to work.)
>
> Iâm not starry-eyed about this. I doubt that this conlang will ever gain
> any traction. The work of conlangers is almost always doomed to be
> underappreciated (as we all know too well).
>
> Essentially what I did was to create a conlang based on a single source
> language: Arabic. I simplified and regularized the grammar, and adopted a
> Romanized alphabet. I call it âSim-Arabicâ (because Iâm not very
> imaginative when it comes to naming my conlangs).
>
> If youâre interested, Iâd appreciate it if you would take a look and
> return
> comments. (To avoid the delay caused by the email digest, please CC my
> address in your reply.) It is up on my web page at:
> http://www.jeffreyrbrown.info/SimArabic
> (and thank you to all who gave advice on writing a primer).
>
Messages in this topic (5)
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5c. Re: Not really a conlang...
Posted by: "J. M. DeSantis" [email protected]
Date: Sat Feb 2, 2013 12:21 pm ((PST))
Jeff,
Thanks for posting this. The timing could not have been better. I am, in
fact, basing one of my conlangs on Arabic, for a graphic novel series
I'm working on, and, as an American who only knows English and has had
four years of Italian (most of which I've forgotten) you're "accessible"
version might help me to better understand Arabic in order to recreate
it's flavour.
I hope you don't mind. Though knowing very little of Arabic other than
what I've been researching, I will say I think your idea is quite unique
and useful. I hope it does gain some traction. Good luck. All the best.
Sincerely,
J. M. DeSantis
Writer - Illustrator
Official Website: jmdesantis.com <http://www.jmdesantis.com>
On 2/2/2013 2:10 PM, Jeffrey Brown wrote:
> Some time ago, I read a paper on Fiat Lingua by Gary Shannon about
> collaborative conlangs. He concluded that, except under special
> circumstance, these would not be likely. One of the circumstances he
> mentioned is that a conlang might live if it were used within the context
> of a religious community.
>
> I thought to myself, Im a member of a religious community [the Bahai
> Faith], why not create a conlang for them? Since many of the writings of
> the Bahai Faith are in Arabic (very difficult, formal Arabic), I thought I
> could create something that would make the texts more accessible to others.
> (Actually, I had been mulling this over before I read Garys paper, but
> that gave me the impetus to get to work.)
>
> Im not starry-eyed about this. I doubt that this conlang will ever gain
> any traction. The work of conlangers is almost always doomed to be
> underappreciated (as we all know too well).
>
> Essentially what I did was to create a conlang based on a single source
> language: Arabic. I simplified and regularized the grammar, and adopted a
> Romanized alphabet. I call it Sim-Arabic (because Im not very
> imaginative when it comes to naming my conlangs).
>
> If youre interested, Id appreciate it if you would take a look and return
> comments. (To avoid the delay caused by the email digest, please CC my
> address in your reply.) It is up on my web page at:
> http://www.jeffreyrbrown.info/SimArabic
> (and thank you to all who gave advice on writing a primer).
>
>
>
Messages in this topic (5)
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5d. Re: Not really a conlang...
Posted by: "MorphemeAddict" [email protected]
Date: Sat Feb 2, 2013 3:47 pm ((PST))
On Sat, Feb 2, 2013 at 2:10 PM, Jeffrey Brown <[email protected]> wrote:
> Some time ago, I read a paper on âFiat Linguaâ by Gary Shannon about
> collaborative conlangs. He concluded that, except under special
> circumstance, these would not be likely. One of the circumstances he
> mentioned is that a conlang might âliveâ if it were used within the
> context
> of a religious community.
>
> I thought to myself, âIâm a member of a religious community [the Bahaâi
> Faith], why not create a conlang for them?â Since many of the writings of
> the Bahaâi Faith are in Arabic (very difficult, formal Arabic), I thought I
> could create something that would make the texts more accessible to others.
> (Actually, I had been mulling this over before I read Garyâs paper, but
> that gave me the impetus to get to work.)
>
> Iâm not starry-eyed about this. I doubt that this conlang will ever gain
> any traction. The work of conlangers is almost always doomed to be
> underappreciated (as we all know too well).
>
> Essentially what I did was to create a conlang based on a single source
> language: Arabic. I simplified and regularized the grammar, and adopted a
> Romanized alphabet. I call it âSim-Arabicâ (because Iâm not very
> imaginative when it comes to naming my conlangs).
>
> If youâre interested, Iâd appreciate it if you would take a look and
> return
> comments. (To avoid the delay caused by the email digest, please CC my
> address in your reply.) It is up on my web page at:
> http://www.jeffreyrbrown.info/SimArabic
> (and thank you to all who gave advice on writing a primer).
>
Really, pdf's on a web page as the sole access? Having the content
immediately accessible without pdf's would be preferable.
stevo
Messages in this topic (5)
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5e. Re: Not really a conlang...
Posted by: "MorphemeAddict" [email protected]
Date: Sat Feb 2, 2013 4:08 pm ((PST))
In the verb section, you discuss "trilaterals". I've always seen these as
"triliterals".
stevo
On Sat, Feb 2, 2013 at 6:46 PM, MorphemeAddict <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
> On Sat, Feb 2, 2013 at 2:10 PM, Jeffrey Brown <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Some time ago, I read a paper on âFiat Linguaâ by Gary Shannon about
>> collaborative conlangs. He concluded that, except under special
>> circumstance, these would not be likely. One of the circumstances he
>> mentioned is that a conlang might âliveâ if it were used within the
>> context
>> of a religious community.
>>
>> I thought to myself, âIâm a member of a religious community [the Bahaâi
>> Faith], why not create a conlang for them?â Since many of the writings of
>> the Bahaâi Faith are in Arabic (very difficult, formal Arabic), I thought
>> I
>> could create something that would make the texts more accessible to
>> others.
>> (Actually, I had been mulling this over before I read Garyâs paper, but
>> that gave me the impetus to get to work.)
>>
>> Iâm not starry-eyed about this. I doubt that this conlang will ever gain
>> any traction. The work of conlangers is almost always doomed to be
>> underappreciated (as we all know too well).
>>
>> Essentially what I did was to create a conlang based on a single source
>> language: Arabic. I simplified and regularized the grammar, and adopted a
>> Romanized alphabet. I call it âSim-Arabicâ (because Iâm not very
>> imaginative when it comes to naming my conlangs).
>>
>> If youâre interested, Iâd appreciate it if you would take a look and
>> return
>> comments. (To avoid the delay caused by the email digest, please CC my
>> address in your reply.) It is up on my web page at:
>> http://www.jeffreyrbrown.info/SimArabic
>> (and thank you to all who gave advice on writing a primer).
>>
>
> Really, pdf's on a web page as the sole access? Having the content
> immediately accessible without pdf's would be preferable.
>
> stevo
>
Messages in this topic (5)
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6a. Re: vowels: five to three?
Posted by: "Iuhan Culmærija" [email protected]
Date: Sat Feb 2, 2013 4:39 pm ((PST))
2013/1/31 Jörg Rhiemeier <[email protected]>
> Hallo conlangers!
>
> On Wednesday 30 January 2013 18:35:00 BPJ wrote:
>
> > Sicilian comes close with
> >
> > Ä« Ä Ä > i
> > Å« Å Å > u
> > Ä Ä > a
> >
> > Had only Ä Å merged with a it would have been a done deal.
>
> That would be a lostlang idea. A romlang with only three vowel
> qualities!
>
>
Syrunian is half-way there with four vowels: i, e, u and a, and [i] and
[e~É] are in the process of falling together already.
Pure [e] only exists in the Construct State (from the Latin genitive) for
nouns, where it inflects with this pattern: Root_vowelâÃâe
Adjectives in the construct state, however, use [i] not [e]: VâÃâi.
In unstressed positions, [e~É] is almost silent (like modern Hebrew's
shva-vowel), but still triggers spirantisation of plosives.
Stressed [e~É] exists together with Ayin, as either [eÊ] or [eÊ]. these are
allophonic to [aÊ].
I should also note that Syrunian is struggling to survive the spread of
Arabic in the Near East. Arabic is the main reason for the instability of
vowels in the language.
paħm'Ellah tecum,
Iuhan
> --
> ... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
> http://www.joerg-rhiemeier.de/Conlang/index.html
> "Bêsel asa Éam, a Éam atha cvanthal a cvanth atha Éamal." - SiM 1:1
>
Messages in this topic (12)
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