There are 14 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. Re: THEORY: Morpheme exportation champion languages and language fam
From: Matthew Boutilier
2a. Re: Consonants in Jarda and Proto-Jardic
From: Herman Miller
2b. Re: Consonants in Jarda and Proto-Jardic
From: BPJ
3a. Filmmaker working on a documentary about conlangs; conlanging couple
From: Sai
3b. Re: Filmmaker working on a documentary about conlangs; conlanging co
From: And Rosta
3c. Re: Filmmaker working on a documentary about conlangs; conlanging co
From: Sai
3d. Re: Filmmaker working on a documentary about conlangs; conlanging co
From: Logan Kearsley
3e. Re: Filmmaker working on a documentary about conlangs; conlanging co
From: Sai
3f. Re: Filmmaker working on a documentary about conlangs; conlanging co
From: Logan Kearsley
4a. Re: Literal vowel harmony for non-human artlang: phones, phonology,
From: Matthew George
4b. Re: Literal vowel harmony for non-human artlang: phones, phonology,
From: Nikolay Ivankov
5a. How many conlangers are there in the world? (WAS Re: conlanging coup
From: Sai
5b. Re: How many conlangers are there in the world? (WAS Re: conlanging
From: Allison Swenson
5c. Re: How many conlangers are there in the world? (WAS Re: conlanging
From: Arthaey Angosii
Messages
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1a. Re: THEORY: Morpheme exportation champion languages and language fam
Posted by: "Matthew Boutilier" [email protected]
Date: Sat Feb 9, 2013 9:57 am ((PST))
For the sake of historical verity, and because I haven't contributed
anything constructive lately, 'soap' does actually come from PGmc *saipō
(> OE sāp > soap; German Seife; Dutch zeep) which itself was loaned into La
tin as sāpō(nis), getting it's final N, and thence made its way into the
Romance languages, and then into other languages like Arabic ṣābūn and
Turkish sabun. I only remember this because of the historical anecdote that
the Germanic tribes washed themselves with soap while the Romans kept fresh
(using the word liberally) by pouring oil on themselves. (Tacitus might
have described this.)
matt
On Sat, Feb 9, 2013 at 11:29 AM, BPJ <[email protected]> wrote:
> Actually a mixture of Sanskrit and Pali much like European languages use
> a mixture of Greek and Latin, but they are phonologically adapted to the
> recipient languages so it doesn't make a lot of difference. Also you have
> the many languages which borrow from Arabic. Turkic and Pakistanian (not a
> genetic term :) languages have lots of loans from Persian too. Then there
> is Slavic languages which borrow from Church Slavic much like Romance
> borrows from Latin. You could probably make a list of the top ten donor
> languages worldwide but you'll find that their impact is limited by region
> and religion. Hindi and Urdu are the same base language but the one
> literary language borrows from Sanskrit and the other from Persian/Arabic.
> Also you have to decide what is a loan. Tibetan has few direct loans but
> lots of calques from Sanskrit, and much the same is true of Chinese
> Buddhist texts. Then Mongolian borrowed directly from Tibetan and Japanese,
> Korean and Vietnamese directly from Chinese.
>
> /bpj
>
>
> Den lördagen den 9:e februari 2013 skrev David McCann:
>
> > On Fri, 8 Feb 2013 22:10:52 -0200
> > Leonardo Castro <[email protected] <javascript:;>> wrote:
> >
> > > Do you know any "ranking" of the languages and language families that
> > > contributed the most with somewhat internationally recognized
> > > morphemes (including loanwords, roots, preffixes, etc.) ? I mean
> > > something like this (a fast guess to start with):
> >
> > You can't make an "internationally recognised" loan list, because the
> > preferred sources depend on language. English and Spanish may name
> > psychology in Greek, but Japanese and Vietnamese use Chinese roots, and
> > Burmese, Cambodian, and Thai use Pali.
> >
>
Messages in this topic (7)
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2a. Re: Consonants in Jarda and Proto-Jardic
Posted by: "Herman Miller" [email protected]
Date: Sat Feb 9, 2013 11:20 am ((PST))
On 2/9/2013 8:30 AM, BPJ wrote:
> Palatalized [tʲ], [dʲ] are often realized as [tsʲ]ˌ [dzʲ]
> (this is the case in Russian for example) and then can
> become [ts], [dz] (Romance, e.g. Italian where TJ > /ts/
> but CJ > /tʃ/) which then of course can easily become
> [s], [z] (French). In (northern) Spanish they became
> [t̻s̻]ˌ [d̻z̻] > [s̻]ˌ [z̻] > [s̻] > [θ]ˌ all the while remaining
> distinct from [s̺]ˌ [z̺] < S. IIRC you have [ts], [dz] in
> Jarda and this could be one source for them.
It's Tirelat that has /ts/ /dz/ as phonemes. But maybe some Jarda words
with /s/ followed by a front vowel like "sül" (married couple) might
have come from an original *t that was palatalized.
*tilu > *tsilu > *tsülu > *tsül > sül
>> One mystery is the origin of the initial clusters /śl/ /śṛ/ /źl/
>> /źṛ/ in Jarda. It's possible that they come from palatalization of
>> *sl, *sṛ, *zl, *zṛ before /i/, but then what happened to *kl, *kṛ,
>> *gl, *gṛ? You don't find /cl/, /cɻ/, /ɟl/, /ɟɻ/ in Jarda.
>
> Maybe */cl/ > /śl/ etc. or else /cl/ etc. merge with
> /tl/ etc. if these exist; cf. English where /tr/, /dr/
> are often [tʃɹ], [dʒɹ] or even [ʈʂ], [ɖʐ]. Chances are
> likely that /c/, /ɟ/ are actually alveopalatal, i.e.
> what Sino-Tibetanists would write as ȶ ȡ! AFMOC
> Sohlob has /ȶɕ/, /ȡʑ/~[ʑ], /ɕ/ and {/ɕt/, /ȶɕt/, /sȶɕ/},
> {/ȡʑd/, /zȡʑ/} are realized as [ɕȶ], [ʑȡ], which I
> transcribe _çt, jd_ -- you will remember that I have
> qualms about word-initial _jd_ in Cidilib. The area
> where Cidilib is spoken is [dɮɒˈfiɕȶir] 'Içtir Mountains'
> BTW, where /dlof/ is the reflex of _*gryafu_.
/tl/ does exist ("tlug" = "neck"); the Zharranh word for "neck" is
"qolka" with initial /kw/, so it would be interesting if these are
somehow related. I think maybe the *kl /_i > *cl > /śl/ might work out
better though.
>> Labialization affected labiodental and velar fricatives, and
>> possibly ṛ /ɻ/. That /ɻ/ is an oddball consonant in Jarda. Maybe
>> Proto-Jardic had a whole series of other retroflex consonants like
>> /ʈ/, /ɖ/, and /ɭ/.
>
> Intervocalic [ʈ]ˌ [ɖ] easily become [ɽ], whence I guess [ɻ] is
> a small step. [ɭ] easily becomes [l] e.g. in Middle IndoAryan,
> and many Swedish speakers who otherwise have /rt/ [ʈ] etc.
> have /rl/ [rl] or [l]. I belong to the [l] camp myself.
> It might be harder to get rid of [ɳ]. In IndoAryan it
> omewhat surprisingly becomes [ɽ̃], though IIRC [n] also
> occurs, so Jardic [ɳ] could conceivably end up as [ɻ]!
It makes sense if an earlier stage of Jarda has [ɽ] between vowels that
it would change to /ɻ/ when final vowels were lost. The question then is
what happened to initial /ʈ/ and /ɖ/, and where did initial /ɻ/ come from?
/ɭ/ > /l/ is interesting; that would certainly account for why the /l/
in /śl/ and /źl/ didn't get palatalized itself. Maybe the fricatives
merge with /x/ /ɣ/ if there were any?
> The spontaneous voicing of [ʍ] seems OK but [ç] > [j]
> somehow rubs me the wrong way. I'd rather expect
> [ç] > [h], at least word initially. I'm clearly
> influenced by Sohlob here, though!
>
> /bpj
Here the problem is that we don't have a good way to write a voiceless
/j/ without making it look like the German "ich" sound. I'm thinking of
the same kind of change that happened in many dialects of English when
the "wh" sound was merged with /w/. Carl Sagan's pronunciation of
"human" as /jumən/ is an example of that change.
I could just arbitrarily write /J/ I guess. ɪ could write /j̥/, but the
ring under the j might not be apparent depending on your font.
Messages in this topic (4)
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2b. Re: Consonants in Jarda and Proto-Jardic
Posted by: "BPJ" [email protected]
Date: Sat Feb 9, 2013 1:49 pm ((PST))
On 2013-02-09 20:20, Herman Miller wrote:
> On 2/9/2013 8:30 AM, BPJ wrote:
>
>> Palatalized [tʲ], [dʲ] are often realized as [tsʲ]ˌ [dzʲ]
>> (this is the case in Russian for example) and then can
>> become [ts], [dz] (Romance, e.g. Italian where TJ > /ts/
>> but CJ > /tʃ/) which then of course can easily become
>> [s], [z] (French). In (northern) Spanish they became
>> [t̻s̻]ˌ [d̻z̻] > [s̻]ˌ [z̻] > [s̻] > [θ]ˌ all the while remaining
>> distinct from [s̺]ˌ [z̺] < S. IIRC you have [ts], [dz] in
>> Jarda and this could be one source for them.
>
> It's Tirelat that has /ts/ /dz/ as phonemes. But maybe some Jarda
> words with /s/ followed by a front vowel like "sül" (married
> couple) might have come from an original *t that was palatalized.
>
> *tilu > *tsilu > *tsülu > *tsül > sül
>
>>> One mystery is the origin of the initial clusters /śl/ /śṛ/ /źl/
>>> /źṛ/ in Jarda. It's possible that they come from palatalization of
>>> *sl, *sṛ, *zl, *zṛ before /i/, but then what happened to *kl, *kṛ,
>>> *gl, *gṛ? You don't find /cl/, /cɻ/, /ɟl/, /ɟɻ/ in Jarda.
>>
>> Maybe */cl/ > /śl/ etc. or else /cl/ etc. merge with
>> /tl/ etc. if these exist; cf. English where /tr/, /dr/
>> are often [tʃɹ], [dʒɹ] or even [ʈʂ], [ɖʐ]. Chances are
>> likely that /c/, /ɟ/ are actually alveopalatal, i.e.
>> what Sino-Tibetanists would write as ȶ ȡ! AFMOC
>> Sohlob has /ȶɕ/, /ȡʑ/~[ʑ], /ɕ/ and {/ɕt/, /ȶɕt/, /sȶɕ/},
>> {/ȡʑd/, /zȡʑ/} are realized as [ɕȶ], [ʑȡ], which I
>> transcribe _çt, jd_ -- you will remember that I have
>> qualms about word-initial _jd_ in Cidilib. The area
>> where Cidilib is spoken is [dɮɒˈfiɕȶir] 'Içtir Mountains'
>> BTW, where /dlof/ is the reflex of _*gryafu_.
>
> /tl/ does exist ("tlug" = "neck"); the Zharranh word for "neck" is
> "qolka" with initial /kw/, so it would be interesting if these are
> somehow related. I think maybe the *kl /_i > *cl > /śl/ might work
> out better though.
>
>>> Labialization affected labiodental and velar fricatives, and
>>> possibly ṛ /ɻ/. That /ɻ/ is an oddball consonant in Jarda. Maybe
>>> Proto-Jardic had a whole series of other retroflex consonants like
>>> /ʈ/, /ɖ/, and /ɭ/.
>>
>> Intervocalic [ʈ]ˌ [ɖ] easily become [ɽ], whence I guess [ɻ] is
>> a small step. [ɭ] easily becomes [l] e.g. in Middle IndoAryan,
>> and many Swedish speakers who otherwise have /rt/ [ʈ] etc.
>> have /rl/ [rl] or [l]. I belong to the [l] camp myself.
>> It might be harder to get rid of [ɳ]. In IndoAryan it
>> omewhat surprisingly becomes [ɽ̃], though IIRC [n] also
>> occurs, so Jardic [ɳ] could conceivably end up as [ɻ]!
>
> It makes sense if an earlier stage of Jarda has [ɽ] between vowels
> that it would change to /ɻ/ when final vowels were lost. The
> question then is what happened to initial /ʈ/ and /ɖ/,
That's not a problem. Gothenburg Swedish had a
sound change whereby (post)dental and retroflex
consonants merged as alveolars. The net result
is that it looks like /r/ has disappeared before
/t d n l s/, but since surrounding dialects to
the north and east and the (upper) middle class
dialect in the city have retroflexes there is
no doubt that it's actually loss of retroflexion.
I immigrated from the retroflexing area to the
north and had to learn to turn retroflexion on
and off at will in order to get accepted at school
*and* not annoy my mother![^1] :-)
Another possibility is that retreflexes merged with
(alveo)palatals. They are quite similar acoustically.
> and where did initial /ɻ/ come from?
When /ɽ/ occurs there usually is another rhotic
beside it. You can also get /ɻ/ from /ʐ/.
There are even Swedish speakers who have
[ɻ] and [ʐ] for /r/ in free variation.
I have [ɻ], [ɾ] and [r] in free variation.
>
> /ɭ/ > /l/ is interesting; that would certainly account for why the
> /l/ in /śl/ and /źl/ didn't get palatalized itself. Maybe the
> fricatives merge with /x/ /ɣ/ if there were any?
Possibly.
>
>> The spontaneous voicing of [ʍ] seems OK but [ç] > [j]
>> somehow rubs me the wrong way. I'd rather expect
>> [ç] > [h], at least word initially. I'm clearly
>> influenced by Sohlob here, though!
>>
>> /bpj
>
> Here the problem is that we don't have a good way to write a
> voiceless /j/ without making it look like the German "ich" sound.
> I'm thinking of the same kind of change that happened in many
> dialects of English when the "wh" sound was merged with /w/. Carl
> Sagan's pronunciation of "human" as /jumən/ is an example of that
> change.
<foreheadslap>
>
> I could just arbitrarily write /J/ I guess. ɪ could write /j̥/, but
> the ring under the j might not be apparent depending on your font.
>
Tolkien used ƕ and ꜧ for labiovelar and palatal voiceless
approximants.
I have used ƕ for the coarticulated [x] and voiceless bilabial
approximant which occurs for /x/ hereabouts.
/bpj
[^1]: It's a curious fact that schoolboys here often
speak a 'lower' accent than their background would
suggest, and than what they speak as adults. They
actually learn an accent at school as part of
assocializing into school(boy) culture. I wonder
if this occurs in other places too.
Messages in this topic (4)
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3a. Filmmaker working on a documentary about conlangs; conlanging couple
Posted by: "Sai" [email protected]
Date: Sat Feb 9, 2013 11:42 am ((PST))
http://tamararosenberg.com/films/ and
http://www.elkcreekcinema.com/nick-august-perna/ are a filmmaker
couple working on a full-length documentary about conlang(er)s.
They're intending to be at LCC5
(http://conlang.org/language-creation-conference/lcc5/).
(If you have any hesitancy about being there because of this, please
don't; LCC is awesome and you should come. Part of LCC policy has
always been that journalists must disclose and get consent from people
they intend to record, so you'd be free to opt out.
If you *do* want to participate, it's an easy opportunity to do so.)
Some previous work of theirs that's useful to watch for reference:
http://www.pbs.org/wnet/wideangle/episodes/time-for-school-series/full-episode-time-for-school-3/5558/
(done together — how they met, actually)
http://theswellseasonmovie.com (the full version can also be gotten
elsewhere; Nick's)
http://www.pbs.org/pov/citydark/ (ditto; Tamara's)
http://www.hbo.com/documentaries/birders-the-central-park-effect
(ditto; also one they co-made)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gnvWQqELNM (Tamara's)
I talked with them about the project at length a couple days ago, to
figure out what their story is intended to be, what kind of
"characters" they would have, etc.
My sense of it is fairly positive, with the usual caveat that one
never knows how it'll turn out and editing is powerful. Their work
historically has been very good and professional (the 9/11 doc was …
rather overdramatized, but evidently not by their preference).
Their current idea is to have an "ensemble cast" à la No Time For
School, with different "characters" (e.g. Alex & I would likely be one
"character", jointly) representing different aspects of the craft,
different motivations, etc. Their preference is to get it funded such
that they can make it independently, go the film circuit route, and
then get picked up for broadcast.
Personal lives would be included to the extent that they're relevant
motivationally — e.g. for us it'd presumably talk about the fact that
we're a conlanging couple, that that's rare*, that it's joint work
that's part of our relationship, involves similar kind of negotiation,
etc. but not so much about other aspects of our relationship (eg what
we're going to do once Alex goes to London in September for his
professorship).
Similarly, personal psychology that's relevant would be included —
e.g. that for me UNLWS is in part exploration-oriented, not
goal-oriented; it's driven by a curiosity about what language can do
at the edges, especially since I see whole swaths of things that are
totally unexplored, like "what would storytelling be like when you
don't control the order of presentation".
I think they'll want to get film of people in the creative process,
though of course that's rather hard to get naturally; we can't
necessarily control when we feel inspired. :-P I think that's also
part of the motivation for their attending LCC5 — seeing it as an
exchange of ideas, collaborative work of a sort, etc.
If you want to get in contact, their emails are on their websites.
I'd suggest that any of us involved in this project (privately)
discuss with each other how it goes, what to expect, our boundaries,
experience, etc., to make things a bit more comfortable for all.
If you're participating (or intending to), please ping me so I can
include you in such discussions.
- Sai
* Speaking of conlanging couples, what's a full enumeration? (Given
the sparsity, let's be maximally generous with what counts.)
I know of:
Bob & Nora LeChevalier, creators of Lojban
Irina & Boudewijn Rempt, creators of Valdya, Andal, Charya (also,
Boudewijn authored http://valdyas.org/apologia.html)
Brett Williams & I X Key, creators of 5B
Alex Fink & me, creators of UNLWS and Gripping
Are there really only 4 such couples in the world?
sources:
http://listserv.brown.edu/archives/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0205d&L=conlang&D=0&P=7851
http://listserv.brown.edu/archives/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind1003B&L=conlang&P=R13559
http://listserv.brown.edu/archives/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind1003D&L=conlang&P=R10475
Messages in this topic (6)
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3b. Re: Filmmaker working on a documentary about conlangs; conlanging co
Posted by: "And Rosta" [email protected]
Date: Sat Feb 9, 2013 12:34 pm ((PST))
Sai, On 09/02/2013 19:41:
> * Speaking of conlanging couples, what's a full enumeration? (Given
> the sparsity, let's be maximally generous with what counts.)
>
> I know of:
> Bob& Nora LeChevalier, creators of Lojban
> Irina& Boudewijn Rempt, creators of Valdya, Andal, Charya (also,
> Boudewijn authored http://valdyas.org/apologia.html)
> Brett Williams& I X Key, creators of 5B
> Alex Fink& me, creators of UNLWS and Gripping
>
> Are there really only 4 such couples in the world?
>
> sources:
> http://listserv.brown.edu/archives/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0205d&L=conlang&D=0&P=7851
> http://listserv.brown.edu/archives/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind1003B&L=conlang&P=R13559
> http://listserv.brown.edu/archives/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind1003D&L=conlang&P=R10475
+ Logan and his wife? (I'm saying that from memory, not checking Conlang
archives.)
(I hadn't known about Brett & I X.)
--And.
Messages in this topic (6)
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3c. Re: Filmmaker working on a documentary about conlangs; conlanging co
Posted by: "Sai" [email protected]
Date: Sat Feb 9, 2013 1:50 pm ((PST))
Logan, care to comment?
- Sai
On Sat, Feb 9, 2013 at 12:32 PM, And Rosta <[email protected]> wrote:
> Sai, On 09/02/2013 19:41:
>>
>> * Speaking of conlanging couples, what's a full enumeration? (Given
>> the sparsity, let's be maximally generous with what counts.)
>>
>> I know of:
>> Bob& Nora LeChevalier, creators of Lojban
>> Irina& Boudewijn Rempt, creators of Valdya, Andal, Charya (also,
>> Boudewijn authored http://valdyas.org/apologia.html)
>> Brett Williams& I X Key, creators of 5B
>> Alex Fink& me, creators of UNLWS and Gripping
>>
>>
>> Are there really only 4 such couples in the world?
>>
>> sources:
>>
>> http://listserv.brown.edu/archives/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0205d&L=conlang&D=0&P=7851
>>
>> http://listserv.brown.edu/archives/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind1003B&L=conlang&P=R13559
>>
>> http://listserv.brown.edu/archives/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind1003D&L=conlang&P=R10475
>
>
> + Logan and his wife? (I'm saying that from memory, not checking Conlang
> archives.)
>
> (I hadn't known about Brett & I X.)
>
> --And.
Messages in this topic (6)
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3d. Re: Filmmaker working on a documentary about conlangs; conlanging co
Posted by: "Logan Kearsley" [email protected]
Date: Sat Feb 9, 2013 3:01 pm ((PST))
On 9 February 2013 14:49, Sai <[email protected]> wrote:
> Logan, care to comment?
Commented on G+, and here for coverage: yes.
Mev Pailom is the language I've been working on together with my wife.
The process has been enlightening in several ways. I do mean to get
documentation available on the web at some point, but it's just not
anywhere near *complete* yet....
> On Sat, Feb 9, 2013 at 12:32 PM, And Rosta <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Sai, On 09/02/2013 19:41:
>>>
>>> * Speaking of conlanging couples, what's a full enumeration? (Given
>>> the sparsity, let's be maximally generous with what counts.)
>>>
>>> I know of:
>>> Bob& Nora LeChevalier, creators of Lojban
>>> Irina& Boudewijn Rempt, creators of Valdya, Andal, Charya (also,
>>> Boudewijn authored http://valdyas.org/apologia.html)
>>> Brett Williams& I X Key, creators of 5B
>>> Alex Fink& me, creators of UNLWS and Gripping
>>>
>>>
>>> Are there really only 4 such couples in the world?
>>>
>>> sources:
>>>
>>> http://listserv.brown.edu/archives/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0205d&L=conlang&D=0&P=7851
>>>
>>> http://listserv.brown.edu/archives/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind1003B&L=conlang&P=R13559
>>>
>>> http://listserv.brown.edu/archives/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind1003D&L=conlang&P=R10475
>>
>>
>> + Logan and his wife? (I'm saying that from memory, not checking Conlang
>> archives.)
>>
>> (I hadn't known about Brett & I X.)
>>
>> --And.
Messages in this topic (6)
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3e. Re: Filmmaker working on a documentary about conlangs; conlanging co
Posted by: "Sai" [email protected]
Date: Sat Feb 9, 2013 3:04 pm ((PST))
On Sat, Feb 9, 2013 at 3:01 PM, Logan Kearsley <[email protected]> wrote:
> Commented on G+, and here for coverage: yes.
> Mev Pailom is the language I've been working on together with my wife.
What's the extent of her participation?
> The process has been enlightening in several ways. I do mean to get
> documentation available on the web at some point, but it's just not
> anywhere near *complete* yet....
*laugh* That shouldn't be a constraint. It's never going to be
"complete"; get over it. :-P
- Sai
Messages in this topic (6)
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3f. Re: Filmmaker working on a documentary about conlangs; conlanging co
Posted by: "Logan Kearsley" [email protected]
Date: Sat Feb 9, 2013 3:16 pm ((PST))
On 9 February 2013 16:03, Sai <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Sat, Feb 9, 2013 at 3:01 PM, Logan Kearsley <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Commented on G+, and here for coverage: yes.
>> Mev Pailom is the language I've been working on together with my wife.
>
> What's the extent of her participation?
Primarily, she is a filter for actual usage- whatever she remembers,
correctly or incorrectly, is canon, and whatever she forgets is
mutable. Prior to the filtering-through-memory stage, though, she
occasionally makes up new lexical items and she tells me whether my
designed ideas sound good or bad (and thus whether it should be
attempted to enter them into usage or not).
The language is not yet particularly productive. It has been stuck for
a long time at the stage of having many frequently-usable memorized
phrases and sentences, but there isn't much creation of new sentences
in discourse yet. I suspect part of this is due to having several
basic syntactic structures that are just really hard to "use into
being" without some planning and design which we have never come up
with a good design for. I might end up asking the list for ideas on
some of those, actually.
>> The process has been enlightening in several ways. I do mean to get
>> documentation available on the web at some point, but it's just not
>> anywhere near *complete* yet....
>
> *laugh* That shouldn't be a constraint. It's never going to be
> "complete"; get over it. :-P
Oh yes, I know; it's just that I had a certain minimum standard in
mind for what I wanted to document when I got started, and that
minimum standard has not been met. The reasons for that are among the
enlightening things that I have learned.
-l.
Messages in this topic (6)
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4a. Re: Literal vowel harmony for non-human artlang: phones, phonology,
Posted by: "Matthew George" [email protected]
Date: Sat Feb 9, 2013 12:09 pm ((PST))
Ooh, that's interesting.
Is the greater tone discrimination culturally-acquired, or due to
physiological differences?
Matt G.
Messages in this topic (4)
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4b. Re: Literal vowel harmony for non-human artlang: phones, phonology,
Posted by: "Nikolay Ivankov" [email protected]
Date: Sat Feb 9, 2013 12:13 pm ((PST))
On Sat, Feb 9, 2013 at 9:09 PM, Matthew George <[email protected]> wrote:
> Ooh, that's interesting.
>
> Is the greater tone discrimination culturally-acquired, or due to
> physiological differences?
>
> Matt G.
>
I think, both. In the end, I derive this lang from a protolang with a
substantial number of consonants that one can pronounce without tongue.
Kolya
Messages in this topic (4)
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5a. How many conlangers are there in the world? (WAS Re: conlanging coup
Posted by: "Sai" [email protected]
Date: Sat Feb 9, 2013 5:48 pm ((PST))
I forgot Erin & Logan Kearsley in the list.
However, my friend Yonatan Zunger brought up[1] an interesting
question: how many conlangers are there, total?
ZBB has 2412 registered users. CONLANG-L has 920 subscribers. LJ
conlangs has 701; FB conlangs ~900; G+ conlangers ~138. There's
unknown overlap and duplication on all those, and an unknown
proportion of conlangers who don't know about and/or don't participate
in the online community.
So how many of us are there? (And what proportion are queer?) Maybe 5
couples isn't actually a small number, considering.
Also, what're the attempt and success rates of conlangers trying to
get their (not-previously-conlanging) partners involved? Given the
paucity of such couples, I have to presume the success rate is pretty
abysmal. :-/
- Sai
[1] https://plus.google.com/u/0/103112149634414554669/posts/hQxeizKUaLS
On Sat, Feb 9, 2013 at 11:41 AM, Sai <[email protected]> wrote:
> * Speaking of conlanging couples, what's a full enumeration? (Given
> the sparsity, let's be maximally generous with what counts.)
>
> I know of:
> Bob & Nora LeChevalier, creators of Lojban
> Irina & Boudewijn Rempt, creators of Valdya, Andal, Charya (also,
> Boudewijn authored http://valdyas.org/apologia.html)
> Brett Williams & I X Key, creators of 5B
> Alex Fink & me, creators of UNLWS and Gripping
>
> Are there really only 4 such couples in the world?
>
> sources:
> http://listserv.brown.edu/archives/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0205d&L=conlang&D=0&P=7851
> http://listserv.brown.edu/archives/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind1003B&L=conlang&P=R13559
> http://listserv.brown.edu/archives/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind1003D&L=conlang&P=R10475
Messages in this topic (3)
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5b. Re: How many conlangers are there in the world? (WAS Re: conlanging
Posted by: "Allison Swenson" [email protected]
Date: Sat Feb 9, 2013 6:05 pm ((PST))
As far as anecdotal evidence goes, I suspect there's an awful lot of people
who do some conlanging without really knowing anything about the broader
conlang community. When I was eleven, after I'd read Lord of the Rings and
learned about Tolkien's languages, I tried my hand at it... it was just an
English relex, but if that counts as a conlang in this context, I wouldn't
be surprised if quite a number of people did similar things. I just
happened to go on to discover the community and do more of it. At the time,
I had no idea anyone beyond Tolkien did it in any significant way--I didn't
even know about languages like Klingon in the beginning.
Of course, the problem with saying this is that it's impossible to count up
such "accidental" conlangers!
On Sat, Feb 9, 2013 at 8:48 PM, Sai <[email protected]> wrote:
> I forgot Erin & Logan Kearsley in the list.
>
> However, my friend Yonatan Zunger brought up[1] an interesting
> question: how many conlangers are there, total?
>
> ZBB has 2412 registered users. CONLANG-L has 920 subscribers. LJ
> conlangs has 701; FB conlangs ~900; G+ conlangers ~138. There's
> unknown overlap and duplication on all those, and an unknown
> proportion of conlangers who don't know about and/or don't participate
> in the online community.
>
> So how many of us are there? (And what proportion are queer?) Maybe 5
> couples isn't actually a small number, considering.
>
> Also, what're the attempt and success rates of conlangers trying to
> get their (not-previously-conlanging) partners involved? Given the
> paucity of such couples, I have to presume the success rate is pretty
> abysmal. :-/
>
> - Sai
>
> [1] https://plus.google.com/u/0/103112149634414554669/posts/hQxeizKUaLS
>
> On Sat, Feb 9, 2013 at 11:41 AM, Sai <[email protected]> wrote:
> > * Speaking of conlanging couples, what's a full enumeration? (Given
> > the sparsity, let's be maximally generous with what counts.)
> >
> > I know of:
> > Bob & Nora LeChevalier, creators of Lojban
> > Irina & Boudewijn Rempt, creators of Valdya, Andal, Charya (also,
> > Boudewijn authored http://valdyas.org/apologia.html)
> > Brett Williams & I X Key, creators of 5B
> > Alex Fink & me, creators of UNLWS and Gripping
> >
> > Are there really only 4 such couples in the world?
> >
> > sources:
> >
> http://listserv.brown.edu/archives/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0205d&L=conlang&D=0&P=7851
> >
> http://listserv.brown.edu/archives/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind1003B&L=conlang&P=R13559
> >
> http://listserv.brown.edu/archives/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind1003D&L=conlang&P=R10475
>
Messages in this topic (3)
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5c. Re: How many conlangers are there in the world? (WAS Re: conlanging
Posted by: "Arthaey Angosii" [email protected]
Date: Sat Feb 9, 2013 6:22 pm ((PST))
On Sat, Feb 9, 2013 at 5:48 PM, Sai <[email protected]> wrote:
> However, my friend Yonatan Zunger brought up[1] an interesting
> question: how many conlangers are there, total?
>
> So how many of us are there? (And what proportion are queer?)
But the *really* important question is: How many of us are left-handed
bearded Lithuanians??
--
AA
http://conlang.arthaey.com
Messages in this topic (3)
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