There are 15 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1.1. Re: OT YAEPT -omp, -onk
From: And Rosta
1.2. Re: OT YAEPT -omp, -onk
From: James Kane
1.3. Re: OT YAEPT -omp, -onk
From: Jim Henry
1.4. Re: OT YAEPT -omp, -onk
From: Tony Harris
1.5. Re: OT YAEPT -omp, -onk
From: Tony Harris
1.6. Re: OT YAEPT -omp, -onk
From: James Kane
1.7. Re: OT YAEPT -omp, -onk
From: Roger Mills
2a. Re: Why are there fewer female than male conlangers?
From: Jack Steiner
2b. Re: Why are there fewer female than male conlangers?
From: Tristan
2c. Re: Why are there fewer female than male conlangers?
From: Randy Frueh
2d. Re: Why are there fewer female than male conlangers?
From: Sam Stutter
2e. Re: Why are there fewer female than male conlangers?
From: Leonardo Castro
3a. Re: OT: reading an unfamiliar language
From: MorphemeAddict
4a. Re: Koha
From: Anthony Miles
5a. Re: vowels: five to three?
From: Leonardo Castro
Messages
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1.1. Re: OT YAEPT -omp, -onk
Posted by: "And Rosta" [email protected]
Date: Tue Feb 12, 2013 3:22 pm ((PST))
Tony Harris, On 12/02/2013 22:31:
> Hmm.
>
> Sob, Bomb, and Mop all definitely have the COT vowel. Sconce does too if you
> know what it is and how to pronounce it, otherwise it's probably /skOwns/.
>
> To me, BOTHER has the same vowel as CAUGHT, not COT. COT, hot, tot, not,
> knot, pot, rot, are all the same vowel. CAUGHT, bought, wrought, fought,
> taut, nought (but not NOT), and ought are all the same as each other, but not
> the same as COT.
This has me trawling my bookshelves in search of info on Vermontese (but
without finding anything describing what you report).
So for you, _father, lava, calm, bother, daughter, author, dawn_ have the same
vowel, and you have it in -omp and -onk words too, and this vowel is different
from the vowel in _sob, bomb, mop, cot_? Fascinating. Which one is in _long,
song, log, dog, sock, watch, squash, lodge, fond, moth, folly, follow, fodder,
ponder, Don, coffee, lost, often, boss, wasp, hosp(ital), bosky, mosque_?
What a confounding mess! What a relief it must be to enter Canada and bask in
the untroubling shallows of its comparative phonological simplicity!
--And.
> On 02/12/2013 05:17 PM, And Rosta wrote:
>>>> A question about ONLY people who rhyme FATHER& BOTHER but distinguish COT
>>>> from CAUGHT:
>>>>
>>>> I. Which of the following statements is truest:
>>>>
>>>> In words spelt<-omp> and<-onk>
>>>> (2) the CAUGHT vowel in all such words
>> Tony (2) [perplexing! -- Tony: what words have the COT vowel? Sob? Bomb?
>> Blond? Sconce? Mop? Or does BOTHER not have the COT vowel?]
Messages in this topic (29)
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1.2. Re: OT YAEPT -omp, -onk
Posted by: "James Kane" [email protected]
Date: Tue Feb 12, 2013 3:53 pm ((PST))
>
> This is the same discussion as whether Mary, marry, and merry are the
> same, I think. To me, the first two (Mary and marry) sound the same,
> but merry sounds different. The 'e' in merry is shorter I think.
> Having a hard time putting my finger on it, though I can hear the
> difference.
>
For me there is a large difference between Mary and marry. Many
Americans and Canadians that I've met mispronounce (to my ears at
least) my middle name Harry so they end up calling me hairy :/ .. The
'e' in merry might be slightly shorter than the 'a' in Mary but they
are very close.
Messages in this topic (29)
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1.3. Re: OT YAEPT -omp, -onk
Posted by: "Jim Henry" [email protected]
Date: Tue Feb 12, 2013 4:27 pm ((PST))
On Mon, Feb 11, 2013 at 8:48 PM, And Rosta <[email protected]> wrote:
> A question about ONLY people who rhyme FATHER & BOTHER but distinguish COT
> from CAUGHT:
My accent (mostly Atlanta, with some childhood influence from New
Orleans) fits that criterion.
> I. Which of the following statements is truest:
> In words spelt <-omp> and <-onk>
> (2) Everyone with the accent described above has the CAUGHT vowel in all
> such words
I assonate "tromp", "stomp", "honk" and some others with CAUGHT. I
haven't been able to think of any -omp or -onk words that I don't use
the CAUGHT vowel in.
--
Jim Henry
http://www.pobox.com/~jimhenry/
http://www.jimhenrymedicaltrust.org
Messages in this topic (29)
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1.4. Re: OT YAEPT -omp, -onk
Posted by: "Tony Harris" [email protected]
Date: Tue Feb 12, 2013 4:27 pm ((PST))
Actually "Harry" and "hairy" sound different to me too, with the first
having the same vowel as "Mary" and "marry", and the second having the
same vowel as "hair" (which rhymes with "air" and "fair"). But that
might be because the first time I really heard the name that I can
remember was with the fourth Doctor's companion (Harry Sullivan), and so
I heard it with a British accent.
What's really interesting is I just had my wife (a native Vermonter) say
them, and both Harry and hairy sound identical when she says them, but
she can also hear the difference between them when I say them. I would
have to ask someone else from Western Massachusetts to say them to tell
if that's just me, or if it's regional.
On 02/12/2013 06:53 PM, James Kane wrote:
>> This is the same discussion as whether Mary, marry, and merry are the
>> same, I think. To me, the first two (Mary and marry) sound the same,
>> but merry sounds different. The 'e' in merry is shorter I think.
>> Having a hard time putting my finger on it, though I can hear the
>> difference.
>>
> For me there is a large difference between Mary and marry. Many
> Americans and Canadians that I've met mispronounce (to my ears at
> least) my middle name Harry so they end up calling me hairy :/ .. The
> 'e' in merry might be slightly shorter than the 'a' in Mary but they
> are very close.
Messages in this topic (29)
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1.5. Re: OT YAEPT -omp, -onk
Posted by: "Tony Harris" [email protected]
Date: Tue Feb 12, 2013 4:41 pm ((PST))
Sort of. Definitely father, lava, and calm have the same vowel as each
other, while bother has a different vowel than those, and daughter,
author, and dawn all have the same vowel as each other but not the same
as either of the first two sets.
Working it over in my mind (and my mouth) I believe the vowel in bother
is about midway between the vowel in father and the vowel in daughter.
The omp words (stomp, romp) have the father vowel.
long, song, log, dog, moth, coffee, lost, often, boss, bosky, and mosque
have the daughter vowel (CAUGHT)
sock, lodge, Don, wasp, hospital have the father vowel (COT)
folly, follow, ponder, watch, squash have the bother vowel.
Caveat: I'm doing my best to run through these and say them and think
about them, so I hope I'm accurately reflecting my dialect.
Also, I think this is where I get to realize that my Western
Massachusetts roots are still there, as I know native Vermonters would
say some of these differently than I do. My own dialect is somewhat of
a mashup of my father's Hamden County urban dialect and the hill town
dialect from Hampshire County where I grew up. Another interesting
example of this is the term I use for the soft ice cream they often
serve in cones that comes out of a machine. People from Hampshire County
northward all the way up to and through Vermont refer to those as a
"creemee". To people in Hamden County and southward they are a
"softserve". Friends who grew up barely 20 miles south of where I did
had no idea what a creemee was, while I never saw a sign in our area
growing up advertising softserve.
On 02/12/2013 06:21 PM, And Rosta wrote:
> Tony Harris, On 12/02/2013 22:31:
>> Hmm.
>>
>> Sob, Bomb, and Mop all definitely have the COT vowel. Sconce does too
>> if you know what it is and how to pronounce it, otherwise it's
>> probably /skOwns/.
>>
>> To me, BOTHER has the same vowel as CAUGHT, not COT. COT, hot, tot,
>> not, knot, pot, rot, are all the same vowel. CAUGHT, bought, wrought,
>> fought, taut, nought (but not NOT), and ought are all the same as
>> each other, but not the same as COT.
>
> This has me trawling my bookshelves in search of info on Vermontese
> (but without finding anything describing what you report).
>
> So for you, _father, lava, calm, bother, daughter, author, dawn_ have
> the same vowel, and you have it in -omp and -onk words too, and this
> vowel is different from the vowel in _sob, bomb, mop, cot_?
> Fascinating. Which one is in _long, song, log, dog, sock, watch,
> squash, lodge, fond, moth, folly, follow, fodder, ponder, Don, coffee,
> lost, often, boss, wasp, hosp(ital), bosky, mosque_?
>
> What a confounding mess! What a relief it must be to enter Canada and
> bask in the untroubling shallows of its comparative phonological
> simplicity!
>
> --And.
>
>> On 02/12/2013 05:17 PM, And Rosta wrote:
>>>>> A question about ONLY people who rhyme FATHER& BOTHER but
>>>>> distinguish COT
>>>>> from CAUGHT:
>>>>>
>>>>> I. Which of the following statements is truest:
>>>>>
>>>>> In words spelt<-omp> and<-onk>
>>>>> (2) the CAUGHT vowel in all such words
>>> Tony (2) [perplexing! -- Tony: what words have the COT vowel? Sob?
>>> Bomb? Blond? Sconce? Mop? Or does BOTHER not have the COT vowel?]
Messages in this topic (29)
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1.6. Re: OT YAEPT -omp, -onk
Posted by: "James Kane" [email protected]
Date: Tue Feb 12, 2013 4:56 pm ((PST))
> Actually "Harry" and "hairy" sound different to me too, with the first having
> the same vowel as "Mary" and "marry", and the second having the same vowel as
> "hair" (which rhymes with "air" and "fair"). But that might be because the
> first time I really heard the name that I can remember was with the fourth
> Doctor's companion (Harry Sullivan), and so I heard it with a British accent.
>
> What's really interesting is I just had my wife (a native Vermonter) say
> them, and both Harry and hairy sound identical when she says them, but she
> can also hear the difference between them when I say them. I would have to
> ask someone else from Western Massachusetts to say them to tell if that's
> just me, or if it's regional.
>
That is really surprising as for me Harry and marry have the same vowel and
Mary and hairy have the same vowel which is opposite to you.
Mary and hair have the same vowel as fair and lair but these also have the same
vowel as fear and leer as my accent merges them. I can however hear the
difference in other people's accents.
>
> On 02/12/2013 06:53 PM, James Kane wrote:
>>> This is the same discussion as whether Mary, marry, and merry are the
>>> same, I think. To me, the first two (Mary and marry) sound the same,
>>> but merry sounds different. The 'e' in merry is shorter I think.
>>> Having a hard time putting my finger on it, though I can hear the
>>> difference.
>> For me there is a large difference between Mary and marry. Many
>> Americans and Canadians that I've met mispronounce (to my ears at
>> least) my middle name Harry so they end up calling me hairy :/ .. The
>> 'e' in merry might be slightly shorter than the 'a' in Mary but they
>> are very close.
Messages in this topic (29)
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1.7. Re: OT YAEPT -omp, -onk
Posted by: "Roger Mills" [email protected]
Date: Tue Feb 12, 2013 5:48 pm ((PST))
In _very broad_ phonemics, these are "Mary" /meyri/; "marry" /mæri/ and "merry"
/mEri/ for some people (not for me, they're all the same).
In parodied Brit-speak, "merry" comes out as "meddy" with the flapped /r/, just
like "very" "veddy". But I don't know about the other two. ;-))
--- On Tue, 2/12/13, James Kane <[email protected]> wrote:
From: James Kane <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: OT YAEPT -omp, -onk
To: [email protected]
Date: Tuesday, February 12, 2013, 6:53 PM
>
> This is the same discussion as whether Mary, marry, and merry are the
> same, I think. To me, the first two (Mary and marry) sound the same,
> but merry sounds different. The 'e' in merry is shorter I think.
> Having a hard time putting my finger on it, though I can hear the
> difference.
>
For me there is a large difference between Mary and marry. Many
Americans and Canadians that I've met mispronounce (to my ears at
least) my middle name Harry so they end up calling me hairy :/ .. The
'e' in merry might be slightly shorter than the 'a' in Mary but they
are very close.
Messages in this topic (29)
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2a. Re: Why are there fewer female than male conlangers?
Posted by: "Jack Steiner" [email protected]
Date: Tue Feb 12, 2013 3:47 pm ((PST))
Sadly, while this post has provided many interesting possibilities into why
differing choices of lifestyle could lead to a limited female presence in the
conlanging community I think the answer is a tad more depressing. Conlangers
tend to come from two groups: The hobbyist or geek community and the scientific
community via linguistics. Now both these communities share a relative dearth
of females in our society, which is probably what leads to the conlanging
dearth. So why do these groups have less women? Because women are
systematically excluded and disenfranchised in both those communities. This may
be changing, but it's still true, especially in the geek community.
> Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2013 15:43:35 -0600
> From: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: Why are there fewer female than male conlangers?
> To: [email protected]
>
> My girlfriend has an interest in many 'geeky' activities: roleplaying,
> linguistics, ancient cultures, and other things. But she tells me that it
> is hard to fit these less than critical activities into her life.
> I'd probably be more successful were I as driven as she is. But my
> priorities are different. I've noticed that she cares A LOT about how
> others see her. I couldn't care less about what others think of me.
>
> Is this a common difference? Men and women of the list; what are your
> impressions on this?
>
> (Sorry if this is getting away from the OP's question but I feel that the
> comparative geekdom of men and women may be closely related to the topic.)
> On Feb 12, 2013 1:01 PM, "Krista D. Casada" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > :-)
> > ________________________________________
> > From: Constructed Languages List [[email protected]] on behalf
> of Daniel Prohaska [[email protected]]
> > Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2013 12:30 PM
> > To: [email protected]
> > Subject: Re: Why are there fewer female than male conlangers?
> >
> > OK, Girls and Women!!!! Please feel free here to be as geeky as can be!!!!
> > Dan
> >
> >
> > On Feb 12, 2013, at 7:14 PM, Krista D. Casada wrote:
> >
> > > I think women in general, as has been mentioned, are under more
> pressure than men are to justify how they spend their free time. I read
> something a couple of days ago where a woman remarked to the effect that
> mothering was like having homework every night for the rest of your life
> > > On Tue, 12 Feb 2013 10:08:54 +0100
> > > "Elena ``of Valhalla''" <[email protected]> wrote:
> > >
> > >> Could it be that conlanging is a geeky endeavour, and that society
> > >> still puts quite a pressure on females to avoid geekdom and focus
> > >> on social activities?
> > >
> > > That's certainly true. "Play bridge, not poker; play tennis, not
> > > cricket; make cakes, not engineering models." There's also the point
> > > that women are also busier!
> > >
> > > The quality question may partly be a matter of "only the determined
> > > swim against the stream" but there's also the point that women are
> > > trained to expect scrutiny, whether of their appearance or their
> > > housekeeping. This must inculcate a belief in doing things properly.
Messages in this topic (21)
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2b. Re: Why are there fewer female than male conlangers?
Posted by: "Tristan" [email protected]
Date: Tue Feb 12, 2013 3:54 pm ((PST))
> I read something a couple of days ago where a woman remarked to the
> effect that mothering was like having homework every night for the rest
> of your life.
As is fathering done properly! (Alas that it isn't always, for either.)
But back on topic: I remember making up a language with both my sisters
when we were kids, if an english relex that we only used for a couple
days (we even used english words for those we didn't have alternate ones
yet). Now it's mostly just my one sister (hi!) and me making more
interesting ones.
So my impression is that as children both boys and girls are interested,
once they reach the age of liking word play and the like. The only film
reference I know of (I don't know much film) is the "mysterious language
of the orient" made by two twelve year old girls in "The World of Henry
Orient". I'm guessing it is something that happens in the mess of social
conditioning in the teenage years.
Another side question, how often do siblings create languages together?
Tristan
--
All original matter is hereby placed immediately under the public domain.
Messages in this topic (21)
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2c. Re: Why are there fewer female than male conlangers?
Posted by: "Randy Frueh" [email protected]
Date: Tue Feb 12, 2013 4:05 pm ((PST))
> Another side question, how often do siblings create languages together?
My brother and I never quite created a language, but we had a few words of
our own (for talking about things that we didn't want to share with our
mother) Nothing too clever or anything but I think that it may be common
among siblings.
I feel that it may be more common than one would think as my brother and I
have never gotten along with each other. Thinking about it, it seems
strange that we'd work together enough that we'd be able to agree even on
simple words.
Messages in this topic (21)
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2d. Re: Why are there fewer female than male conlangers?
Posted by: "Sam Stutter" [email protected]
Date: Tue Feb 12, 2013 4:24 pm ((PST))
Maybe you've hit on something with the childhood play angle. Girls tend to stop
playing games when they reach puberty whereas boys tend to continue to do so.
Of course, it's a massive generalisation and whether it's a biological or
social phenomenon could probably be argued both ways. But if conlanging is a
form of play or some sort of game, it makes sense that it falls into the same
category as playing football on a Saturday with your mates, an epic online
gaming sesh, building model railways or amateur motor racing. Yes, many women
*do* do these things, but for men it seems compulsory - it's something almost
all men do.
Compared to the literature component of my degree (2 guys in a lecture of 50
people), linguistics was quite gender balanced (15 guys in a lecture of 50).
Guys, when I explained how I used conlanging as a means of sandboxing what I
learnt in class, were interested and thought it was a good idea. Girls thought
it was daft and quite sad. In fact, I always explained it as being like model
railways, only I don't have to pay Hornby £50 every time I want a new component
:)
On 12 Feb 2013, at 22:01, Tristan <[email protected]> wrote:
>> I read something a couple of days ago where a woman remarked to the
>> effect that mothering was like having homework every night for the rest
>> of your life.
>
> As is fathering done properly! (Alas that it isn't always, for either.)
>
> But back on topic: I remember making up a language with both my sisters
> when we were kids, if an english relex that we only used for a couple
> days (we even used english words for those we didn't have alternate ones
> yet). Now it's mostly just my one sister (hi!) and me making more
> interesting ones.
>
> So my impression is that as children both boys and girls are interested,
> once they reach the age of liking word play and the like. The only film
> reference I know of (I don't know much film) is the "mysterious language
> of the orient" made by two twelve year old girls in "The World of Henry
> Orient". I'm guessing it is something that happens in the mess of social
> conditioning in the teenage years.
>
> Another side question, how often do siblings create languages together?
>
> Tristan
>
> --
> All original matter is hereby placed immediately under the public domain.
Messages in this topic (21)
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2e. Re: Why are there fewer female than male conlangers?
Posted by: "Leonardo Castro" [email protected]
Date: Tue Feb 12, 2013 5:34 pm ((PST))
2013/2/12 Sam Stutter <[email protected]>:
> Compared to the literature component of my degree (2 guys in a lecture of 50
> people), linguistics was quite gender balanced (15 guys in a lecture of 50).
The closer a field of study is to an "exact science", the fewer
females will be there. This is what should be explained.
Messages in this topic (21)
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3a. Re: OT: reading an unfamiliar language
Posted by: "MorphemeAddict" [email protected]
Date: Tue Feb 12, 2013 3:49 pm ((PST))
Ah, yes, this is what I've done with Hungarian in the past. Good idea.
stevo
On Tue, Feb 12, 2013 at 3:57 PM, Adam Walker <[email protected]> wrote:
> Looking for common personal names like Mohammed should tell you
> quickly if personal names inflect for case and such. Then once you
> find some place names you can do likewise for those to see if they are
> treated the same way. If you do find case endings on proper names,
> then you may be able to find a great many nouns by looking for those
> endings.
>
> Adam
>
> On 2/11/13, MorphemeAddict <[email protected]> wrote:
> > On Mon, Feb 11, 2013 at 11:39 AM, Krista D. Casada <[email protected]>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> Knowing numerals might also help identify words for currency or streets,
> >> roads, etc.
> >
> >
> > I already thought of this, too, but, aside from page numbers, there
> aren't
> > a lot of numerals. It's a novel, after all, and numerals don't occur
> often
> > in novels in English, either.
> >
> > stevo
> >
> >
> >> Immediate repetition of a word might also indicate it's an interjection,
> >> or at least carries high emotional content. My (very, very slight)
> >> experience with Dari suggests you might find more IE cognates than you
> >> think. (I do this kind of thing a lot, and get a huge kick out of it.)
> >> ________________________________________
> >> From: Constructed Languages List [[email protected]] on behalf
> >> of MorphemeAddict [[email protected]]
> >> Sent: Monday, February 11, 2013 10:23 AM
> >> To: [email protected]
> >> Subject: Re: OT: reading an unfamiliar language
> >>
> >> Thanks!
> >>
> >> stevo
> >>
> >> On Mon, Feb 11, 2013 at 11:13 AM, Krista D. Casada <[email protected]>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> > ________________________________________
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > --- On Sun, 2/10/13, MorphemeAddict <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> > This is about unfamiliar languages in general, but it's prompted by a
> >> > particular book in Modern Persian (it looks like a novel) that I have.
> >> > There are no pictures, charts, or diagrams. It's just text.
> >> >
> >> > I know the Persian alphabet and number symbols. How much of this novel
> >> > is
> >> > it possible to figure out without any references or other materials? I
> >> > suspect things like dialogue would help with identifying verbs of
> >> > speech
> >> > and pronouns, but is there anything else I should look for?
> >> > ============================================
> >> >
> >> > Hunt for proper nouns, which might be indicated by rare letter
> >> > combinations, since you won't have upper- and lower-case letters to
> >> > help.
> >> > Especially be on the lookout for familiar place names or punctuation
> >> > that
> >> > might indicate direct address (although that probably varies a lot, as
> >> with
> >> > Arabic.)
> >> >
> >> > Krista
> >>
> >
>
Messages in this topic (9)
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4a. Re: Koha
Posted by: "Anthony Miles" [email protected]
Date: Tue Feb 12, 2013 4:25 pm ((PST))
On 2/6/2013 10:49 PM, Anthony Miles wrote:
>> Koha is a German-derived language spoken on the Earth of the
>> "Eis-Lehre-Welt (ELW)" cosm of the Polycosm, the equivalent of all
>> the Pacific Ocean creoles on OTL's Earth. It started as an
>> slow-burning experiment in late 2011 to see how much of German syntax
>> could survive extreme simplification (most of it, as it turns out).
>I like this; it looks vaguely Pacific at first glance, but you can see
>the Germanic roots if you point them out. Interesting though that it
>appears to have /o/ but no /u/. (I'd have expected "muka" for "mother".)
Na mi me'a ka ku 'ena ka voka ho Koha Elopa hi he'a. (It pleases me [schmeckt,
not passt gut] that you can see the words from [European] German.). /u/ is a
phoneme in Koha - the Tosa (pre-Koha) word for "mother" was 'ti muta'. Rule:
u > o/_Ca#
Note that /e/ does not exhibit this behavior.
The vocabulary of Koha is a bit small, but it was used as a contact language,
so KISS applies.
Messages in this topic (3)
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5a. Re: vowels: five to three?
Posted by: "Leonardo Castro" [email protected]
Date: Tue Feb 12, 2013 5:41 pm ((PST))
2013/2/12 Douglas Koller <[email protected]>:
>> Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2013 09:36:04 -0200
>> From: [email protected]
>> Subject: Re: vowels: five to three?
>> To: [email protected]
>
>> Au, saule miu!
>
>> Ma natu saule
>> cchiù bellu, ai ne
>> au saule miu
>> sta nfraunte a ti!
>> au saule
>> au saule miu
>> sta nfraunte a ti,
>> sta nfraunte a ti!
>
> Sung to the tune of "Tsa na u niva"?
>
> Kou
I didn't get it. It's just the refrain of "O sole mio!" with some adaptations.
Messages in this topic (20)
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