There are 15 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. Re: THEORY: Lost of final-syllable rhotic.
From: Leonardo Castro
1b. Re: THEORY: Lost of final-syllable rhotic.
From: David McCann
1c. Re: THEORY: Lost of final-syllable rhotic.
From: Roger Mills
2a. Re: CHAT: the Ithkuil of programming languages?
From: MorphemeAddict
2b. Re: CHAT: the Ithkuil of programming languages?
From: Alex Fink
2c. Re: CHAT: the Ithkuil of programming languages?
From: H. S. Teoh
2d. Re: CHAT: the Ithkuil of programming languages?
From: Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets
2e. Re: CHAT: the Ithkuil of programming languages?
From: R A Brown
2f. Re: CHAT: the Ithkuil of programming languages?
From: Leonardo Castro
2g. Re: CHAT: the Ithkuil of programming languages?
From: David McCann
2h. Re: CHAT: the Ithkuil of programming languages?
From: Wm Annis
3a. Re: OT: Middle Egyptian dictionary/grammar in Russian
From: Demian Terentev
4a. Re: ASL writing systems (and other OT subjects)
From: Mathieu Roy
5a. Re: Related to the recent discussion about counting the number of po
From: Roger Mills
5b. Re: Related to the recent discussion about counting the number of po
From: Daniel Bowman
Messages
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1a. Re: THEORY: Lost of final-syllable rhotic.
Posted by: "Leonardo Castro" [email protected]
Date: Tue Feb 26, 2013 4:41 pm ((PST))
2013/2/15 J. 'Mach' Wust <[email protected]>:
> (The Italian rhotic is, I think, more accurately described as a
> trill, and so is the Spanish final rhotic.)
BTW, could someone tell me how to pronounce geminated r in Italian? Is
there a little pause between two trills or the trill just become
longer?
Messages in this topic (14)
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1b. Re: THEORY: Lost of final-syllable rhotic.
Posted by: "David McCann" [email protected]
Date: Wed Feb 27, 2013 8:32 am ((PST))
On Tue, 26 Feb 2013 21:41:08 -0300
Leonardo Castro <[email protected]> wrote:
> BTW, could someone tell me how to pronounce geminated r in Italian? Is
> there a little pause between two trills or the trill just become
> longer?
It's longer. Ladefoged and Maddieson found (recording 5 speakers) that a
single /r/ was a single or double tap, while /rr/ was 3 to 7 taps. In
languages where there was no contrast, /r/ usually had 2 to 3 contacts,
but many speakers used 1 or 4.
Messages in this topic (14)
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1c. Re: THEORY: Lost of final-syllable rhotic.
Posted by: "Roger Mills" [email protected]
Date: Wed Feb 27, 2013 9:54 am ((PST))
--- On Tue, 2/26/13, Leonardo Castro <[email protected]> wrote:
2013/2/15 J. 'Mach' Wust <[email protected]>:
> (The Italian rhotic is, I think, more accurately described as a
> trill, and so is the Spanish final rhotic.)
BTW, could someone tell me how to pronounce geminated r in Italian? Is
there a little pause between two trills or the trill just become
longer?
=================================
As best I recall, the rule is similar to that of Spanish--- initial /r/ and
/rr/ are usually stongly ttrilled**, /r/ is usually a tap, but can optionally
be a short trill (it may be free variation depending on context/emphasis or
other personal factors).
**which makes, at least for me, "il re ~ el rey" real tongue-twisters :-(
---note that the Arabic name Abdul Rahman, comes out as "Abderraman" (an early
Moorish king)
Messages in this topic (14)
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2a. Re: CHAT: the Ithkuil of programming languages?
Posted by: "MorphemeAddict" [email protected]
Date: Tue Feb 26, 2013 5:02 pm ((PST))
On Tue, Feb 26, 2013 at 5:57 PM, Logan Kearsley <[email protected]>wrote:
> On 26 February 2013 13:05, Daniel Burgener <[email protected]>
> wrote:
> >>
> >> Well, I don't think we can have a conversation about this without
> >> mentioning Fith as the FORTH of conlangs.
> >> I had thought that Lojban might be comparable to Prolog, but now I'm
> >> thinking its more of a Haskell.
> >>
> >
> > Agree on the Haskell. My first thought was "What would Haskell be?" but
> > then I read your post before actually trying to come up with something
> and
> > you seem to have a perfect idea.
> >
> > How about Ido as C++? They're both reforms on one of the most
> widely-used
> > languages.
>
> Is Ido ridiculously more grammatically complex than Esperanto? I think
> that's a requirement for a true C++ analog.
>
Not ridiculously more complex, but Ido replaces many regularities of
Esperanto (verb endings, correlatives, pronouns) with more natlangish
irregular versions.
stevo
> -l.
>
Messages in this topic (13)
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2b. Re: CHAT: the Ithkuil of programming languages?
Posted by: "Alex Fink" [email protected]
Date: Tue Feb 26, 2013 8:28 pm ((PST))
On Tue, 26 Feb 2013 15:05:57 -0500, Daniel Burgener <[email protected]>
wrote:
>>
>> Well, I don't think we can have a conversation about this without
>> mentioning Fith as the FORTH of conlangs.
Of course!
>> I had thought that Lojban might be comparable to Prolog, but now I'm
>> thinking its more of a Haskell.
>
>Agree on the Haskell. My first thought was "What would Haskell be?" but
>then I read your post before actually trying to come up with something and
>you seem to have a perfect idea.
Myself, I can't quite see Lojban as Haskell. Haskell's too elegant; Lojban
kinda doesn't feel simple / refined enough for it, not compared to the
approaches that are being taken in something like Xorban. I might call
Livagian the Haskell of conlangs. Lojban can be one of the more baroque Lisp
dialects from the 70s or 80s (not that I know those languages well...)
Alex
Messages in this topic (13)
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2c. Re: CHAT: the Ithkuil of programming languages?
Posted by: "H. S. Teoh" [email protected]
Date: Tue Feb 26, 2013 9:35 pm ((PST))
On Tue, Feb 26, 2013 at 11:28:07PM -0500, Alex Fink wrote:
> On Tue, 26 Feb 2013 15:05:57 -0500, Daniel Burgener
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >>
> >> Well, I don't think we can have a conversation about this without
> >> mentioning Fith as the FORTH of conlangs.
>
> Of course!
>
> >> I had thought that Lojban might be comparable to Prolog, but now
> >> I'm thinking its more of a Haskell.
> >
> >Agree on the Haskell. My first thought was "What would Haskell be?" but
> >then I read your post before actually trying to come up with something and
> >you seem to have a perfect idea.
>
> Myself, I can't quite see Lojban as Haskell. Haskell's too elegant;
> Lojban kinda doesn't feel simple / refined enough for it, not compared
> to the approaches that are being taken in something like Xorban. I
> might call Livagian the Haskell of conlangs. Lojban can be one of the
> more baroque Lisp dialects from the 70s or 80s (not that I know those
> languages well...)
[...]
Hmm. If that is the case, then Ebisédian would be the INTERCAL of
conlangs! ;-)
T
--
Notwithstanding the eloquent discontent that you have just respectfully
expressed at length against my verbal capabilities, I am afraid that I
must unfortunately bring it to your attention that I am, in fact, NOT
verbose.
Messages in this topic (13)
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2d. Re: CHAT: the Ithkuil of programming languages?
Posted by: "Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets" [email protected]
Date: Tue Feb 26, 2013 11:20 pm ((PST))
On 27 February 2013 06:23, H. S. Teoh <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> Hmm. If that is the case, then Ebisédian would be the INTERCAL of
> conlangs! ;-)
>
>
What would be the Smalltalk of conlangs? That'd be a language with
basically no morphology to speak of, and syntax based on a single structure
that'd be used everywhere. Mmm... I can't think of any conlang that fits
the description...
--
Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets.
http://christophoronomicon.blogspot.com/
http://www.christophoronomicon.nl/
Messages in this topic (13)
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2e. Re: CHAT: the Ithkuil of programming languages?
Posted by: "R A Brown" [email protected]
Date: Tue Feb 26, 2013 11:41 pm ((PST))
On 27/02/2013 07:18, Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets wrote:
> On 27 February 2013 06:23, H. S. Teoh wrote:
>
>>
>> Hmm. If that is the case, then Ebisédian would be the
>> INTERCAL of conlangs! ;-)
>>
It's a long while since we've heard of Ebisédian; nice to be
reminded of it.
> What would be the Smalltalk of conlangs? That'd be a
> language with basically no morphology to speak of, and
> syntax based on a single structure that'd be used
> everywhere. Mmm... I can't think of any conlang that fits
> the description...
What I'd find more interesting would be the programming
language analog of Maggel :)
--
Ray
==================================
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
"language ⦠began with half-musical unanalysed expressions
for individual beings and events."
[Otto Jespersen, Progress in Language, 1895]
Messages in this topic (13)
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2f. Re: CHAT: the Ithkuil of programming languages?
Posted by: "Leonardo Castro" [email protected]
Date: Wed Feb 27, 2013 3:14 am ((PST))
I once said in the Engelang list that Xorban looks like Java
programming, but someone disagreed and said it looks more like
declarative programming, e.g. SQL.
My Xorban-Java analogy was based on the fact that "everything is an
object" in Java and Xorban similarly treats any word the same way. But
thinking better, maybe Xorban is more like C where "everything is a
function" because every Xorban word is composed by a "functional"
consonantal part and a "variable" vocallic part.
A difference is that programming languages usually accept functions
and objects with no variables (i.e. void functions).
Até mais!
Leonardo
2013/2/27 R A Brown <[email protected]>:
> On 27/02/2013 07:18, Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets wrote:
>
>> On 27 February 2013 06:23, H. S. Teoh wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Hmm. If that is the case, then Ebisédian would be the
>>> INTERCAL of conlangs! ;-)
>>>
>
> It's a long while since we've heard of Ebisédian; nice to be
> reminded of it.
>
>
>> What would be the Smalltalk of conlangs? That'd be a
>> language with basically no morphology to speak of, and
>> syntax based on a single structure that'd be used
>> everywhere. Mmm... I can't think of any conlang that fits
>> the description...
>
>
> What I'd find more interesting would be the programming
> language analog of Maggel :)
>
> --
> Ray
> ==================================
> http://www.carolandray.plus.com
> ==================================
> "language
began with half-musical unanalysed expressions
> for individual beings and events."
> [Otto Jespersen, Progress in Language, 1895]
Messages in this topic (13)
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2g. Re: CHAT: the Ithkuil of programming languages?
Posted by: "David McCann" [email protected]
Date: Wed Feb 27, 2013 8:45 am ((PST))
On Tue, 26 Feb 2013 14:15:17 -0500
Alex Fink <[email protected]> wrote:
> Agree, disagree? What is the <your favourite conlang here> of
> programming languages, or the <your favourite programming language
> here> of conlangs, or the ...?
Is this the most esoteric subject ever discussed here?
For kitchen-sink, PL/1 springs to mind. And was BCPL the programmers'
Toki Pona?
Messages in this topic (13)
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2h. Re: CHAT: the Ithkuil of programming languages?
Posted by: "Wm Annis" [email protected]
Date: Wed Feb 27, 2013 9:01 am ((PST))
I spend a good deal of my time dealing either with human languages or
with programming languages. More than one person has assumed the
skills must translate, but I really don't think so. A programming
language is like a human language about as much as a prion is like an
elephant. The mismatch between them is so great I literally cannot
even *begin* to imagine how to link Ithkuil to even the most advanced
programming languages.
--
William S. Annis
www.aoidoi.org www.scholiastae.org
Messages in this topic (13)
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3a. Re: OT: Middle Egyptian dictionary/grammar in Russian
Posted by: "Demian Terentev" [email protected]
Date: Wed Feb 27, 2013 12:55 am ((PST))
http://www.egyptology.ru/petrovskij.htm
2013/2/26 MorphemeAddict <[email protected]>
> Does anyone know of a decent Middle Egyptian dictionary and grammar book in
> Russian?
>
> stevo
>
Messages in this topic (2)
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4a. Re: ASL writing systems (and other OT subjects)
Posted by: "Mathieu Roy" [email protected]
Date: Wed Feb 27, 2013 4:42 am ((PST))
I felt I had to learn a little bit of ASL before choosing which writing system
I wanted to use, so since I wrote you last month, I've done the first 6 lessons
on Lifeprint (as recommended by AA). Then I read all the links you gave me (and
more!). So I can now say I personally prefer Suttonâs SignWriting. However,
while I know I'll seriously learn ASL, I'm not sure about SignWriting.
With your answers, other people's recommendations and my own research, I've
made a document with (what looks like) the best ASL online documentation:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1p9vLMfAPZet0oMTC2z_burEc-LZ0jaNK5TftbXl4hcw/edit#
and I've also created a community on Google+, take a look (:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/communities/106294265747168072209
Mathieu
-----Message d'origine-----
De : Constructed Languages List [mailto:[email protected]] De la part
de Arthaey Angosii
Envoyé : samedi 2 février 2013 07:47
À : [email protected]
Objet : Re: ASL writing systems (and other OT subjects)
On Thu, Jan 31, 2013 at 8:20 PM, Mathieu Roy <[email protected]> wrote:
> What do you think of the different writing systems that have been created
> since 1825?
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Sign_Language#Writing_systems
Check out the previous email threads on this topic from March 2012:
"Written Form of American Sign Language":
http://listserv.brown.edu/archives/cgi-bin/wa?A1=ind1203d&L=conlang#28
"Sutton SignWritting":
http://listserv.brown.edu/archives/cgi-bin/wa?A1=ind1203d&L=conlang#23
> Which one is your favorite and why?
I only seriously considered Sutton SignWritting and si5s, because the other
systems seem better suited to narrow transcription needed for linguistics work,
but not the broad transcription I'd want to see for an everyday writing system.
(But see David Peterson's well-written critique in the previous email threads.)
SignWriting is a little older and has a larger following, including
international support by other sign language communities. However, I really
just hate how it looks like a bunch of diagrams, not like a "real" writing
system. This is of course purely an aesthetic, subjective thing, but there it
is. You can read more about it here:
http://www.signwriting.org/
si5s is newer and has the "political" benefit of being invented by a Deaf
person (which is not true of SignWriting). It also just looks more like a
naturalistic writing system to me. But because it's so much newer, it is very
much still evolving. I'm actually using si5s to take notes in my ASL class and
to make flashcards for myself; I'm also talking with one of the si5s textbook
authors about making a font & IME(s).
Sites about si5s:
http://www.si5s.org/
http://aslized.org/
http://www.aslwrite.com/
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/aslwrite
> What is the percentage of people signing in ASL that can also write in this
> language?
Very very few, regardless of which written form of ASL you're talking about. As
you can see from the previous conversation we'd had about written ASL, there is
a lot of resistance within the American Deaf community to the very idea of a
written form of the language, much less consensus about *which* form to use.
> Are non-deaf people generally welcome in deaf communities?
In my (limited) experience with ASL Deaf groups, whether hearing people are
welcome is entirely dependent on said hearing people's attitudes. Educate
yourself on Deaf culture, what it's like (both now and in past generations),
and disabuse yourself of the common misconceptions. If you treat it like any
other cultural & linguistic minority, you should be okay.
Note that there are some Deaf jerks â just like there are hearing jerks. But
by and large, I've had great experiences chatting with my (very beginner!) ASL
in Deaf groups. Just be polite and respectful, y'know? :)
> What are your favorite web sites and/or books to learn ASL?
http://www.lifeprint.com/
http://asl.ms/
> And I also saw these websites: http://www.aslpro.com/,
> http://www.alldeaf.com/, and http://www.handspeak.com/word/search.php
The All Deaf forums are a great place to lurk and learn about Deaf culture. Be
prepared to read some shocking stories of the crap they have to put up with! :(
--
AA
http://conlang.arthaey.com
Messages in this topic (9)
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5a. Re: Related to the recent discussion about counting the number of po
Posted by: "Roger Mills" [email protected]
Date: Wed Feb 27, 2013 9:44 am ((PST))
--- On Tue, 2/26/13, Logan Kearsley <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Tue, Feb 26, 2013 at 1:35 PM, Logan Kearsley <[email protected]>wrote:
>
(RM I'm not sure who wrote what here, but....)
.... but true perfect synonyms are incredibly rare, and there's
>> always *some* reason why one word or one structure was picked over
>> another one.
>
> I would think that there is _usually_ a reason that one construction is
> chosen over another, or at least that linguists should consider whether
> there is a reason. But the claim that such a reason _always_ exists might
> be overbroad. As an empirical claim, you'd essentially have to defend
> yourself every time someone comes up with two sentences with the same
> meaning.
No, you don't. You just have to defend it if someone finds two
different sentences that they believe to have the same meaning.
Natural production of two sentences that turn out to be genuinely
identical in meaning is entirely different from intentionally
producing two different sentences that could both be interpreted with
the same pre-decided meaning.
> Besides that, considerations other than content could pressure
> the choice of one structure over the other. Brevity comes to mind, while
> we're speaking of Twitter.
RM I can't see any real difference between "buy" and "purchase"--
"I plan to buy/purchase a new car"
"I'd like to buy/purchase 500 shares of IBM"
(interestingly, someone into stock-market lingo might say, later, "That was a
smart buy" (_purchase_ seems unlikely in that context.)
And I think in a legal document, either one might be used.
One that really gets my dander us is realtor's use of "home" when they really
mean "house". "Home" with its warm fuzzy connotations is not something you can
buy; it is something that a house becomes over time as experiences and
traditions come to be associated with it.. (Even Robert Frost's frosty "Home is
where, when you have to go there, they have to take you in" which in my
experience is most accurate anyway :-))
But offhand I can't think of any other such pairs.
Messages in this topic (14)
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5b. Re: Related to the recent discussion about counting the number of po
Posted by: "Daniel Bowman" [email protected]
Date: Wed Feb 27, 2013 9:52 am ((PST))
> RM I can't see any real difference between "buy" and "purchase"--
>
>
I think "purchase" tends to occur in more formal situations.
I believe there's a maxim in ecology that states no two animals can occupy
the exact same niche.
It's likely that the same is true of words - there's no reason to have two
words that are exactly identical.
If that were to occur, I expect one word would disappear, or change meaning
to be distinct (however slightly) from the other one.
Messages in this topic (14)
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