There are 13 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1. Ceqli is active again.
From: Gleki Arxokuna
2a. Re: OT: Texas German dying out
From: Paul Schleitwiler, FCM
3a. Languages' Flag
From: Mathieu Roy
3b. Re: Languages' Flag
From: Tony Harris
3c. Re: Languages' Flag
From: Dustfinger Batailleur
3d. Re: Languages' Flag
From: George Corley
3e. Re: Languages' Flag
From: Ph. D.
3f. Re: Languages' Flag
From: Alex Fink
3g. Re: Languages' Flag
From: Herman Miller
3h. Re: Languages' Flag
From: George Corley
3i. Re: Languages' Flag
From: Mechthild Czapp
3j. Re: Languages' Flag
From: R A Brown
3k. Re: Languages' Flag
From: BPJ
Messages
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1. Ceqli is active again.
Posted by: "Gleki Arxokuna" [email protected]
Date: Wed Mar 13, 2013 7:55 am ((PDT))
http://ceqliblog.blogspot.ru/2013/03/dictionary-questions.html
Messages in this topic (1)
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2a. Re: OT: Texas German dying out
Posted by: "Paul Schleitwiler, FCM" [email protected]
Date: Wed Mar 13, 2013 12:50 pm ((PDT))
Old Wisconsin joke: "Ay ban gettin tired from Yewnited Stayuts. Ay tink ay
go back tew Minny-SOtah."
Told by Germans, of course.
I think that television, with national broadcasters, killed local dialects.
Que Dios te bendiga de siempre y de todas maneras,
Paul
On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 6:13 AM, BPJ <[email protected]> wrote:
> It may be that the accent is lingering while the grammar and vocabulary
> are gone. It's not quite as likely when two different
> languages are involved but quite common when local dialects
> give way to a prestige/'standard' variety of the same language.
> There is a stereotype heard here in Scandinavia thot people
> in Minnesota and Wisconsin still speak English with a noticeable
> Swedish/Norwegian accent. Don't know how accurate it is.
>
> /bpj
>
Messages in this topic (6)
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3a. Languages' Flag
Posted by: "Mathieu Roy" [email protected]
Date: Wed Mar 13, 2013 4:47 pm ((PDT))
I've just read this article against using flags of countries to stand for
languages: http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/flags.html. I agree with it. However,
I'd like to have your opinion on creating a flag for a conlang (as well as
creating other kinds of symbols).
-Mathieu
Messages in this topic (11)
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3b. Re: Languages' Flag
Posted by: "Tony Harris" [email protected]
Date: Wed Mar 13, 2013 6:07 pm ((PDT))
Interesting. I had not really thought of it, though I do admit using
the Union Jack for English has at times seemed a bit odd, but they're
right, few people outside the UK probably know of the actual flag of
England itself. It is, perhaps, less of an issue using the flag of,
say, Wales for Welsh as Welsh isn't really spoken much outside of Wales
and is pretty much identified with that one nation, but of course there
are plenty of English-speaking residents of Wales who might also be less
impressed.
Anyway, leaving that aside and answering your actual question, I don't
have flags that are specifically for my languages, but I do have flags
for the places where they are spoken. I've shared info on the Alurhsa
flag here before (and on Facebook), which you can see at
http://alurhsa.org/images/AlurhsaFlag.jpg. The flag used for Tariatta
(which I don't have an actual cloth version of, unfortunately) can be
seen at http://alurhsa.org/images/vayna.gif (except that the yellow
stripes should be gold and didn't come out that way back when I made
this, a long time ago...).
On 03/13/2013 07:47 PM, Mathieu Roy wrote:
> I've just read this article against using flags of countries to stand for
> languages: http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/flags.html. I agree with it.
> However, I'd like to have your opinion on creating a flag for a conlang (as
> well as creating other kinds of symbols).
>
> -Mathieu
Messages in this topic (11)
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3c. Re: Languages' Flag
Posted by: "Dustfinger Batailleur" [email protected]
Date: Wed Mar 13, 2013 6:16 pm ((PDT))
Linguistic symbolism as separate from national or ethnic symbolism (as well
as separate from orthography) wouldn't come about without some sort of
separation in the public mind (of a conrace) between ethnicity and
language. Maybe some sort of scribal, elite, or otherwise esoteric language
would have some such symbolism to represent its users' preferred medium of
communication.
On 13 March 2013 21:06, Tony Harris <[email protected]> wrote:
> Interesting. I had not really thought of it, though I do admit using the
> Union Jack for English has at times seemed a bit odd, but they're right,
> few people outside the UK probably know of the actual flag of England
> itself. It is, perhaps, less of an issue using the flag of, say, Wales for
> Welsh as Welsh isn't really spoken much outside of Wales and is pretty much
> identified with that one nation, but of course there are plenty of
> English-speaking residents of Wales who might also be less impressed.
>
> Anyway, leaving that aside and answering your actual question, I don't
> have flags that are specifically for my languages, but I do have flags for
> the places where they are spoken. I've shared info on the Alurhsa flag
> here before (and on Facebook), which you can see at
> http://alurhsa.org/images/**AlurhsaFlag.jpg<http://alurhsa.org/images/AlurhsaFlag.jpg>.
> The flag used for Tariatta (which I don't have an actual cloth version of,
> unfortunately) can be seen at
> http://alurhsa.org/images/**vayna.gif<http://alurhsa.org/images/vayna.gif>(except
> that the yellow stripes should be gold and didn't come out that way
> back when I made this, a long time ago...).
>
>
>
> On 03/13/2013 07:47 PM, Mathieu Roy wrote:
>
>> I've just read this article against using flags of countries to stand for
>> languages:
>> http://www.cs.tut.fi/~**jkorpela/flags.html<http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/flags.html>.
>> I agree with it. However, I'd like to have your opinion on creating a flag
>> for a conlang (as well as creating other kinds of symbols).
>> -Mathieu
>>
>
Messages in this topic (11)
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3d. Re: Languages' Flag
Posted by: "George Corley" [email protected]
Date: Wed Mar 13, 2013 6:56 pm ((PDT))
On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 8:16 PM, Dustfinger Batailleur <
[email protected]> wrote:
> Linguistic symbolism as separate from national or ethnic symbolism (as well
> as separate from orthography) wouldn't come about without some sort of
> separation in the public mind (of a conrace) between ethnicity and
> language. Maybe some sort of scribal, elite, or otherwise esoteric language
> would have some such symbolism to represent its users' preferred medium of
> communication.
The idea that a nation and its language are synonymous is part of
nationalism, which is a relatively recent development in the world. It
wouldn't be an issue to have a conworld that does not have nationalism,
given appropriate social and political context -- such scenarios have
existed in our own world (and you could argue still exist). As such, I
think you have it backward -- linguistic symbolism derived from national
symbolism only occurs when the public mind links the political nation with
the language, but that is not by any means the default scenario.
I most certainly agree with the original article. I have seen solutions
like combining the Union Jack with the US flag, but that really doesn't
give you much, as so many other countries have English as an official
language. And the article didn't even cover cases where you want to
represent a language that does not have official status, or at least isn't
one of the major official languages of any entity with a flag. You _might_
get away with a Scottish flag for Lowland Scots -- if you ignore Scottish
Gaelic -- but what are you going to do, exactly, with Inuktitut, since a
Canadian flag could represent French or English.
Messages in this topic (11)
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3e. Re: Languages' Flag
Posted by: "Ph. D." [email protected]
Date: Wed Mar 13, 2013 7:26 pm ((PDT))
Tony Harris wrote:
>
> Anyway, leaving that aside and answering your actual question, I don't
> have flags that are specifically for my languages, but I do have flags
> for the places where they are spoken. I've shared info on the Alurhsa
> flag here before (and on Facebook), which you can see at
> http://alurhsa.org/images/AlurhsaFlag.jpg. The flag used for Tariatta
> (which I don't have an actual cloth version of, unfortunately) can be
> seen at http://alurhsa.org/images/vayna.gif (except that the yellow
> stripes should be gold and didn't come out that way back when I made
> this, a long time ago...).
>
My conlang Uteg is spoken in the Uteg Republic. Its flag can be seen here:
http://www.phillipdriscoll.com/Flag3.JPG
--Ph. D.
Messages in this topic (11)
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3f. Re: Languages' Flag
Posted by: "Alex Fink" [email protected]
Date: Wed Mar 13, 2013 7:30 pm ((PDT))
On Wed, 13 Mar 2013 20:56:10 -0500, George Corley <[email protected]> wrote:
>On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 8:16 PM, Dustfinger Batailleur <
>[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Linguistic symbolism as separate from national or ethnic symbolism (as well
>> as separate from orthography) wouldn't come about without some sort of
>> separation in the public mind (of a conrace) between ethnicity and
>> language. Maybe some sort of scribal, elite, or otherwise esoteric language
>> would have some such symbolism to represent its users' preferred medium of
>> communication.
>
>The idea that a nation and its language are synonymous is part of
>nationalism, which is a relatively recent development in the world. It
>wouldn't be an issue to have a conworld that does not have nationalism,
>given appropriate social and political context -- such scenarios have
>existed in our own world (and you could argue still exist). As such, I
>think you have it backward -- linguistic symbolism derived from national
>symbolism only occurs when the public mind links the political nation with
>the language, but that is not by any means the default scenario.
It's worth tying this to your second question:
On Thu, 14 Mar 2013 00:47:34 +0100, Mathieu Roy <[email protected]>
wrote:
>I'd like to have your opinion on creating a flag for a conlang (as well as
>creating other kinds of symbols).
For one, it is more or less exactly Korpela's point that it makes much more
sense to make a flag for a con_culture_ than a con_lang_. Languages are not
really political units, except when they coincide with political units
historical accident, or in fringe cases such as successful auxlangs. IMO in
fact they're pretty opposite, without things like nationalism or simple
isolation to force the equation: political change is usually imposed from on
high, whereas linguistic change is quintessentially grassroots-y (orthography
maybe aside).
An answer further to that depends on the setting of your conculture. On Earth
of *this* timeline, do as Earth does. Elsewhere, the first question is whether
flags exist as a class of national or cultural symbol at all! There's no real
necessary reason for them to, and I find people who just make flags in their
conworld that's not otherwise meant to be a parallel Earth a bit lazy.
On Earth, before the rise of modern nationalism a couple centuries ago, flags
were restricted to military and naval use, contexts where it's functionally
important to know someone's affiliation on sighting them from a distance, and
advertise your own. But there are all kinds of other _forms_ that might've
served the same purpose: e.g. maybe your field signs aren't of the fixed aspect
ratio and design sensibility of modern national flags but are rather like
banners, or kites, or sequences of ribbons, or like the Roman metal standards
atop poles which were more or less foot-high sculptures of diverse forms; or, I
dunno, imitative palanquins or towers, or maybe some contraption holding actual
light sources, or or or. Maybe instead of being derived from the design
tradition of European-style heraldry, they're derived more directly from
something else -- e.g. it's very common that combatants of the two sides of a
war would _wear_ distinct things, either an article of clothing or something
affixed, and hoisting thàt could serve the function of the field sign. Maybe
they're derived from a tradition in your conculture with no good Earth
equivalent.
And of course, the epitomic national symbol of nations in your conworld doesn't
have to be a former field sign either!
Alex
Messages in this topic (11)
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3g. Re: Languages' Flag
Posted by: "Herman Miller" [email protected]
Date: Wed Mar 13, 2013 8:08 pm ((PDT))
On 3/13/2013 9:56 PM, George Corley wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 8:16 PM, Dustfinger Batailleur<
> [email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Linguistic symbolism as separate from national or ethnic symbolism (as well
>> as separate from orthography) wouldn't come about without some sort of
>> separation in the public mind (of a conrace) between ethnicity and
>> language. Maybe some sort of scribal, elite, or otherwise esoteric language
>> would have some such symbolism to represent its users' preferred medium of
>> communication.
>
>
> The idea that a nation and its language are synonymous is part of
> nationalism, which is a relatively recent development in the world. It
> wouldn't be an issue to have a conworld that does not have nationalism,
> given appropriate social and political context -- such scenarios have
> existed in our own world (and you could argue still exist). As such, I
> think you have it backward -- linguistic symbolism derived from national
> symbolism only occurs when the public mind links the political nation with
> the language, but that is not by any means the default scenario.
>
> I most certainly agree with the original article. I have seen solutions
> like combining the Union Jack with the US flag, but that really doesn't
> give you much, as so many other countries have English as an official
> language. And the article didn't even cover cases where you want to
> represent a language that does not have official status, or at least isn't
> one of the major official languages of any entity with a flag. You _might_
> get away with a Scottish flag for Lowland Scots -- if you ignore Scottish
> Gaelic -- but what are you going to do, exactly, with Inuktitut, since a
> Canadian flag could represent French or English.
I guess Nunavut probably has a flag. But what about Cantonese, does the
Cantonese-speaking part of China have an associated flag? Hindi vs.
Urdu? Zulu vs. Xhosa? Even Bokmål vs. Nynorsk would be problematic with
the flag representation of languages.
A world with flags for languages instead of nations would be
interesting. Maybe that would make sense for the Zireen world (Rishai).
Somewhere I have a Minza flag, but I can't find it. I think it was blue,
with a representation of a bridge (from the Tirelat word "mindza", the
origin of the name Minza).
Messages in this topic (11)
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3h. Re: Languages' Flag
Posted by: "George Corley" [email protected]
Date: Wed Mar 13, 2013 9:28 pm ((PDT))
On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 10:08 PM, Herman Miller <[email protected]>wrote:
>
> I guess Nunavut probably has a flag. But what about Cantonese, does the
> Cantonese-speaking part of China have an associated flag? Hindi vs. Urdu?
> Zulu vs. Xhosa? Even Bokmål vs. Nynorsk would be problematic with the flag
> representation of languages.
>
You could use the Hong Kong flag to represent Cantonese (and China probably
won't even block you for it). Hindi and Urdu are 1) basically the same
language, and 2) closely tied to India and Pakistan, respectively, but all
good points. I guess one issue is that many of the smaller languages I'm
talking about aren't always getting their own site versions (though they
often get translations on Wikipedia, which by the way, uses the more
appropriate system which represents languages by their native names).
Of course, while the flag convention just breaks spectacularly, the native
name method isn't perfect. Some languages have multiple names, meaning you
have to choose one or show them all. If it's just two names that are
common, this isn't to big of an issue (eg 'español/castellano') but when
you have something like Mandarin, which has three or four common names,
some of them with political implications, it gets a little more difficult.
Messages in this topic (11)
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3i. Re: Languages' Flag
Posted by: "Mechthild Czapp" [email protected]
Date: Thu Mar 14, 2013 1:18 am ((PDT))
Rejistanian can use the flag of the country:
http://www.nationstates.net/nation=rejistania As to whether this is the best
idea, I don't know as there are rejistanian-speaking minorities elsewhere.
On 13.03.2013, at 23:47, Mathieu Roy wrote:
> I've just read this article against using flags of countries to stand for
> languages: http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/flags.html. I agree with it.
> However, I'd like to have your opinion on creating a flag for a conlang (as
> well as creating other kinds of symbols).
>
> -Mathieu
Messages in this topic (11)
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3j. Re: Languages' Flag
Posted by: "R A Brown" [email protected]
Date: Thu Mar 14, 2013 2:18 am ((PDT))
On 14/03/2013 01:06, Tony Harris wrote:
> Interesting. I had not really thought of it, though I
> do admit using the Union Jack for English has at times
> seemed a bit odd,
So it is.
> but they're right, few people outside the UK probably
> know of the actual flag of England itself.
Unless they're fans of football (both rugby and soccer
versions) ;)
The flags of England, Great Britain and the United Kingdom
[of Great Britain and Northern Ireland] are all three different.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_England
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Great_Britain
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_the_United_Kingdom
> It is, perhaps, less of an issue using the flag of, say,
> Wales for Welsh as Welsh isn't really spoken much outside
> of Wales
Yes, sadly it seems to have more or less disappeared from
Patagonia (I would love to be proved wrong).
> and is pretty much identified with that one nation,
Except, of course, that nation has two official languages -
always a problem with those pesky bilingual nations ;)
> but of course there are plenty of English-speaking
> residents of Wales who might also be less impressed.
Exactly so.
===========================================================
On 14/03/2013 01:56, George Corley wrote:
[snip]
>
> The idea that a nation and its language are synonymous
> is part of nationalism, which is a relatively recent
> development in the world.
Yes - and with IMO unfortunate results in some places - but
I'd better keep off that topic or we'll be going deep into
NCNC territory.
[snip]
> I most certainly agree with the original article. I
> have seen solutions like combining the Union Jack with
> the US flag, but that really doesn't give you much, as so
> many other countries have English as an official
> language.
Yep - a bit insulting for the peoples of, say, Australia &
New Zealand.
> And the article didn't even cover cases where you want to
> represent a language that does not have official status,
> or at least isn't one of the major official languages of
> any entity with a flag. You _might_ get away with a
> Scottish flag for Lowland Scots -- if you ignore Scottish
> Gaelic --
Ignore Scots Gaelic!!! But it was the Gaelic-speaking
_Scoti_ from Ireland that gave their name to the country!
> but what are you going to do, exactly, with Inuktitut,
Use the Nunavut flag:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nunavut :)
=========================================================
On 13/03/2013 23:47, Mathieu Roy wrote:
[snip]
> However, I'd like to have your opinion on creating a flag
> for a conlang (as well as creating other kinds of
> symbols).
Have a look at:
http://flagspot.net/flags/qy_plan.html
Fortunately Dr Outis lived before the pernicious
identification of flag and language, so it would not have
seemed right to him to have given his language a flag - nor
shall I do so.
It does not seem to me sensible to give flags to TAKE nor to
any of the various incarnation of my (probably to be
unfinished) briefscript project.
I guess if I develop the language I outlined a few days
back, then I'll maybe have to think about a flag:
http://www.carolandray.plus.com/Britannic/index.html
--
Ray
==================================
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
"language … began with half-musical unanalysed expressions
for individual beings and events."
[Otto Jespersen, Progress in Language, 1895]
Messages in this topic (11)
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3k. Re: Languages' Flag
Posted by: "BPJ" [email protected]
Date: Thu Mar 14, 2013 5:10 am ((PDT))
On 2013-03-14 00:47, Mathieu Roy wrote:
> I've just read this article against using flags of countries to stand for
> languages:http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/flags.html.
I have long thought so, but the parting salvo of the article
> And if you have the home page of a company or an association in several
> languages, isn't it pretty natural to list its names in those languages,
> making each name a link to a version of the document in that language?
is not true: is, for example, a _startside_ in Danish or Bokmål?
The native name of language (+ 'version' in the language IMO)
approach is clearly preferable in all cases, despite the problem
with polyonymous languages, or languages sharing a native name,
which also occurs.
.
/bpj
Messages in this topic (11)
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