There are 15 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. Re: Creating a Prononominal System
From: Patrick Dunn
1b. Re: Creating a Prononominal System
From: Gary Shannon
1c. Re: Creating a Prononominal System
From: C. Brickner
1d. Re: Creating a Prononominal System
From: Logan Kearsley
1e. Re: Creating a Prononominal System
From: Mechthild Czapp
1f. Re: Creating a Prononominal System
From: MorphemeAddict
1g. Re: Creating a Prononominal System
From: George Corley
1h. Re: Creating a Prononominal System
From: Logan Kearsley
1i. Re: Creating a Prononominal System
From: Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
1j. Re: Creating a Prononominal System
From: Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
1k. Re: Creating a Prononominal System
From: Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
2a. Re: Creating A Prononominal System
From: Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
3a. More from the Popular Linguistics Front
From: Padraic Brown
3b. Re: More from the Popular Linguistics Front
From: George Corley
3c. Re: More from the Popular Linguistics Front
From: Krista D. Casada
Messages
________________________________________________________________________
1a. Re: Creating a Prononominal System
Posted by: "Patrick Dunn" [email protected]
Date: Fri Mar 29, 2013 7:44 am ((PDT))
Animate/inanimate is just a grammatical gender category in Oasa (and in
lots of natlangs). Essentially, living things are in the animate category,
while non-living thing are in the inanimate category, with a few exceptions
(in Oasa, vehicles tend to be animate whether horse or car, and weather
phenomena are almost all animate. Some species of trees are animate, some
inanimate; some geological features are animate, some inanimate.)
Verbs in Oasa agree in gender with their objects. So: 'nehasake" -- to fix
an object; but "nehasala" -- to heal someone.
On Fri, Mar 29, 2013 at 2:00 AM, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews <
[email protected]> wrote:
> I'm also thinking if pronouns can be broken down by cast, can they be
> broken
> down by race or species?
>
>
>
> Also, what's the inanimate and animate pronouns forms for?
>
> I'm guessing the only pronoun that would work would be it.
>
> I didn't think of honorific pronouns, are the honorifics broken down
> depending on gender? And how about pronouns divided by age, could that
> work?
> In other words, there would be an age category.
>
>
>
> I'm also thinking they could be broken down into they, same gender for
> women, they, same gender for men, they, a man a woman alone, and they, a
> man
> a woman in a group. Then, there's they for the group as a whole, and they
> for part of the group.
>
> Wow! As if our language wasn't confusing enough.
>
>
>
>
>
--
Second Person, a chapbook of poetry by Patrick Dunn, is now available for
order from Finishing Line
Press<http://www.finishinglinepress.com/NewReleasesandForthcomingTitles.htm>
and
Amazon<http://www.amazon.com/Second-Person-Patrick-Dunn/dp/1599249065/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1324342341&sr=8-2>.
Messages in this topic (16)
________________________________________________________________________
1b. Re: Creating a Prononominal System
Posted by: "Gary Shannon" [email protected]
Date: Fri Mar 29, 2013 9:03 am ((PDT))
What about simply doing away with pronouns? People might address their
remarks indirectly by using the other person's title.
For example, the teacher says to the student: "The teacher would remind the
student that the homework is overdue." And the student replies: "The humble
student regrets to inform the honored teacher that the dog ate the
homework."
At most, a third person pronoun might be useful, but all those other
persons seem unnecessary as long as everyone has a title relative to
everyone else. Kinship titles would cover most of the ground, and in
extreme situations the title "stranger" could be used. Among close friends
the given name could be used.
--gary
Messages in this topic (16)
________________________________________________________________________
1c. Re: Creating a Prononominal System
Posted by: "C. Brickner" [email protected]
Date: Fri Mar 29, 2013 9:14 am ((PDT))
Wouldn't this become a bit cumbersome after a while?
The teacher poked the teacher in the eye with the teacher's pen.
Or the king saying, "The king wishes the king's wife to attend the king now".
I would prefer to say, "The teacher poked himself in the eye with his pen".
Or have the king say, "I wish my wife to attend me now".
Charlie
----- Original Message -----
What about simply doing away with pronouns? People might address their
remarks indirectly by using the other person's title.
For example, the teacher says to the student: "The teacher would remind the
student that the homework is overdue." And the student replies: "The humble
student regrets to inform the honored teacher that the dog ate the
homework."
At most, a third person pronoun might be useful, but all those other
persons seem unnecessary as long as everyone has a title relative to
everyone else. Kinship titles would cover most of the ground, and in
extreme situations the title "stranger" could be used. Among close friends
the given name could be used.
--gary
Messages in this topic (16)
________________________________________________________________________
1d. Re: Creating a Prononominal System
Posted by: "Logan Kearsley" [email protected]
Date: Fri Mar 29, 2013 9:22 am ((PDT))
On 29 March 2013 10:03, Gary Shannon <[email protected]> wrote:
> What about simply doing away with pronouns? People might address their
> remarks indirectly by using the other person's title.
>
> For example, the teacher says to the student: "The teacher would remind the
> student that the homework is overdue." And the student replies: "The humble
> student regrets to inform the honored teacher that the dog ate the
> homework."
>
> At most, a third person pronoun might be useful, but all those other
> persons seem unnecessary as long as everyone has a title relative to
> everyone else. Kinship titles would cover most of the ground, and in
> extreme situations the title "stranger" could be used. Among close friends
> the given name could be used.
Isn't that basically how Japanese works? (I recall a discussion on
this topic not too long ago.) Many nouns can potentially be used with
anaphoric intent, and words that are typically interpreted as pronouns
are just nouns that happen to have been used in that capacity with
sufficient frequency that they've become semantically bleached.
On 29 March 2013 10:14, C. Brickner <[email protected]> wrote:
> Wouldn't this become a bit cumbersome after a while?
>
> The teacher poked the teacher in the eye with the teacher's pen.
> Or the king saying, "The king wishes the king's wife to attend the king now".
>
> I would prefer to say, "The teacher poked himself in the eye with his pen".
> Or have the king say, "I wish my wife to attend me now".
The awkwardness is avoidable if you a) have an extensive pro-drop
system so you don't need to make those references anyway and/or b) you
have a relatively small set of more generic titles that can be used in
place of the fully specific ones once a topic has been established.
-l.
Messages in this topic (16)
________________________________________________________________________
1e. Re: Creating a Prononominal System
Posted by: "Mechthild Czapp" [email protected]
Date: Fri Mar 29, 2013 9:32 am ((PDT))
It is difficult as soon as the terms are unwieldy.
Eg: The forest which the Seleken call Itaikalda and the Lajik call Itak-ba
contains a river, which culminates in a small, hidden lake. Many fishes, which
are unique to the area live in /the river and the lake/. Janahita Kansu and
Eskali Sixedil and Hisi Karu, all of the Hito ethnicity and thus not on any
side in the dispute about this area had done a lot of research about it.
/Janahita Kansu and Eskali Sixedil and Hisi Karu/ deem /the river and the lake/
a one of a kind find in the area, due to the conflict which meant that no
permanent settlements disturbed the wildlife of /the river and the lake/. As
such, /Janahita Kansu and Eskali Sixedil and Hisi Karu/ deem the conflict
blessing in disguise.
Va'il veka ji kelda'il tera!
Am 29.03.2013 um 16:03 schrieb Gary Shannon <[email protected]>:
> What about simply doing away with pronouns? People might address their
> remarks indirectly by using the other person's title.
>
> For example, the teacher says to the student: "The teacher would remind the
> student that the homework is overdue." And the student replies: "The humble
> student regrets to inform the honored teacher that the dog ate the
> homework."
>
> At most, a third person pronoun might be useful, but all those other
> persons seem unnecessary as long as everyone has a title relative to
> everyone else. Kinship titles would cover most of the ground, and in
> extreme situations the title "stranger" could be used. Among close friends
> the given name could be used.
>
> --gary
Messages in this topic (16)
________________________________________________________________________
1f. Re: Creating a Prononominal System
Posted by: "MorphemeAddict" [email protected]
Date: Fri Mar 29, 2013 9:40 am ((PDT))
Or simply use titles:
Teacher to student: "Teacher would remind Student that the homework is due."
Student to Teacher: "Student regrets to inform Teacher that the dog ate the
homework."
I understand that Thai does this sort of thing, even between mother and
child.
stevo
On Fri, Mar 29, 2013 at 12:03 PM, Gary Shannon <[email protected]> wrote:
> What about simply doing away with pronouns? People might address their
> remarks indirectly by using the other person's title.
>
> For example, the teacher says to the student: "The teacher would remind the
> student that the homework is overdue." And the student replies: "The humble
> student regrets to inform the honored teacher that the dog ate the
> homework."
>
> At most, a third person pronoun might be useful, but all those other
> persons seem unnecessary as long as everyone has a title relative to
> everyone else. Kinship titles would cover most of the ground, and in
> extreme situations the title "stranger" could be used. Among close friends
> the given name could be used.
>
> --gary
>
Messages in this topic (16)
________________________________________________________________________
1g. Re: Creating a Prononominal System
Posted by: "George Corley" [email protected]
Date: Fri Mar 29, 2013 9:44 am ((PDT))
On Fri, Mar 29, 2013 at 11:31 AM, Mechthild Czapp <[email protected]> wrote:
> It is difficult as soon as the terms are unwieldy.
>
> Eg: The forest which the Seleken call Itaikalda and the Lajik call Itak-ba
> contains a river, which culminates in a small, hidden lake. Many fishes,
> which are unique to the area live in /the river and the lake/. Janahita
> Kansu and Eskali Sixedil and Hisi Karu, all of the Hito ethnicity and thus
> not on any side in the dispute about this area had done a lot of research
> about it. /Janahita Kansu and Eskali Sixedil and Hisi Karu/ deem /the river
> and the lake/ a one of a kind find in the area, due to the conflict which
> meant that no permanent settlements disturbed the wildlife of /the river
> and the lake/. As such, /Janahita Kansu and Eskali Sixedil and Hisi Karu/
> deem the conflict blessing in disguise.
>
> Va'il veka ji kelda'il tera!
>
Can be fixed with use of pro-drop, demonstratives, and other strategies:
"The forest which the Seleken call Itaikalda and the Lajik call Itak-ba
contains a river, which culminates in a small, hidden lake. Many fishes,
which are unique to the area live [here]. Janahita Kansu and Eskali Sixedil
and Hisi Karu, all of the Hito ethnicity and thus not on any side in the
dispute about this area had done a lot of research about it. [*dropped*]
deem [this place] a one of a kind find in the area, due to the conflict
which meant that no permanent settlements disturbed the wildlife
[*deleted*]. As such, [*dropped*] deem the conflict blessing in disguise."
It should be noted that others have mentioned language that have so-called
"open class" pronouns that effectively do function the same way as using
"titles" as pronouns -- and can even be quite specific in the social
relation they attach to (I think in the Conlangery episode on pronouns we
mentioned a language which had a specific pronoun for some sort of
shaman-like figure).
Messages in this topic (16)
________________________________________________________________________
1h. Re: Creating a Prononominal System
Posted by: "Logan Kearsley" [email protected]
Date: Fri Mar 29, 2013 9:46 am ((PDT))
On 29 March 2013 10:31, Mechthild Czapp <[email protected]> wrote:
> It is difficult as soon as the terms are unwieldy.
>
> Eg: The forest which the Seleken call Itaikalda and the Lajik call Itak-ba
> contains a river, which culminates in a small, hidden lake. Many fishes,
> which are unique to the area live in /the river and the lake/. Janahita Kansu
> and Eskali Sixedil and Hisi Karu, all of the Hito ethnicity and thus not on
> any side in the dispute about this area had done a lot of research about it.
> /Janahita Kansu and Eskali Sixedil and Hisi Karu/ deem /the river and the
> lake/ a one of a kind find in the area, due to the conflict which meant that
> no permanent settlements disturbed the wildlife of /the river and the lake/.
> As such, /Janahita Kansu and Eskali Sixedil and Hisi Karu/ deem the conflict
> blessing in disguise.
That's just eliminating anaphors entirely, though, and replacing them
with the full noun phrase everywhere, which is not what Gary
suggested. Try something more like this:
The forest which the Seleken call Itaikalda and the Lajik call Itak-ba
contains a river, which culminates in a small, hidden lake. Many
fishes, which are unique to the area live in /the waters/. Janahita
Kansu and Eskali Sixedil and Hisi Karu, all of the Hito ethnicity and
thus not on any side in the dispute about this area had done a lot of
research about it. /The researchers/ deem /the waters/ a one of a kind
find in the area, due to the conflict which meant that no permanent
settlements disturbed the wildlife [pro-drop]. As such, /the
researchers/ deem the conflict blessing in disguise.
I had an idea a while ago for a similar idea where the typical nouns
chosen for anaphoric reference were already-generic terms for
"speaker", "hearer", "subject of discussion", etc. This has the
interesting property that, while certain nouns are *usually* used as
first-person references, and others are *usually* used as
second-person references, it's fairly easy to come up with situations
where the interpretations are reversed, or both are shifted to
third-person.
-l.
Messages in this topic (16)
________________________________________________________________________
1i. Re: Creating a Prononominal System
Posted by: "Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews" [email protected]
Date: Fri Mar 29, 2013 10:08 am ((PDT))
True. I thought so, but thought I'd get a second opinion.
-----Original Message-----
From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Leonardo Castro
Sent: Friday, March 29, 2013 5:24 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Creating a Prononominal System
2013/3/29 Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews <[email protected]>:
> I'm also thinking if pronouns can be broken down by cast, can they be
broken
> down by race or species?
Maybe a different pronoun for "outsider" would be realistic. A race or
species could have different pronouns to refer or speak to people from
inside and outside the group, but having many different pronouns for a
lot of races or species seems improbable. They would likely be
stereotipical and probably offensive words.
Messages in this topic (16)
________________________________________________________________________
1j. Re: Creating a Prononominal System
Posted by: "Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews" [email protected]
Date: Fri Mar 29, 2013 10:10 am ((PDT))
Ah.
-----Original Message-----
From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Patrick Dunn
Sent: Friday, March 29, 2013 7:45 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Creating a Prononominal System
Animate/inanimate is just a grammatical gender category in Oasa (and in
lots of natlangs). Essentially, living things are in the animate category,
while non-living thing are in the inanimate category, with a few exceptions
(in Oasa, vehicles tend to be animate whether horse or car, and weather
phenomena are almost all animate. Some species of trees are animate, some
inanimate; some geological features are animate, some inanimate.)
Verbs in Oasa agree in gender with their objects. So: 'nehasake" -- to fix
an object; but "nehasala" -- to heal someone.
On Fri, Mar 29, 2013 at 2:00 AM, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews <
[email protected]> wrote:
> I'm also thinking if pronouns can be broken down by cast, can they be
> broken
> down by race or species?
>
>
>
> Also, what's the inanimate and animate pronouns forms for?
>
> I'm guessing the only pronoun that would work would be it.
>
> I didn't think of honorific pronouns, are the honorifics broken down
> depending on gender? And how about pronouns divided by age, could that
> work?
> In other words, there would be an age category.
>
>
>
> I'm also thinking they could be broken down into they, same gender for
> women, they, same gender for men, they, a man a woman alone, and they, a
> man
> a woman in a group. Then, there's they for the group as a whole, and they
> for part of the group.
>
> Wow! As if our language wasn't confusing enough.
>
>
>
>
>
--
Second Person, a chapbook of poetry by Patrick Dunn, is now available for
order from Finishing Line
Press<http://www.finishinglinepress.com/NewReleasesandForthcomingTitles.htm>
and
Amazon<http://www.amazon.com/Second-Person-Patrick-Dunn/dp/1599249065/ref=sr
_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1324342341&sr=8-2>.
Messages in this topic (16)
________________________________________________________________________
1k. Re: Creating a Prononominal System
Posted by: "Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews" [email protected]
Date: Fri Mar 29, 2013 10:14 am ((PDT))
It's part of this guide I'm going through for one thing, and for another,
how would you say something "I like him?" I'm not sure how much sense that
would make.
-----Original Message-----
From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Gary Shannon
Sent: Friday, March 29, 2013 9:03 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Creating a Prononominal System
What about simply doing away with pronouns? People might address their
remarks indirectly by using the other person's title.
For example, the teacher says to the student: "The teacher would remind the
student that the homework is overdue." And the student replies: "The humble
student regrets to inform the honored teacher that the dog ate the
homework."
At most, a third person pronoun might be useful, but all those other
persons seem unnecessary as long as everyone has a title relative to
everyone else. Kinship titles would cover most of the ground, and in
extreme situations the title "stranger" could be used. Among close friends
the given name could be used.
--gary
Messages in this topic (16)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
2a. Re: Creating A Prononominal System
Posted by: "Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews" [email protected]
Date: Fri Mar 29, 2013 10:07 am ((PDT))
I tried to looke up different pronominal systems, but couldn't find
anything.Maybe I researched it wrong.
-----Original Message-----
From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Jyri Lehtinen
Sent: Friday, March 29, 2013 4:07 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Creating A Prononominal System
I've been reading Foley's "The Papuan languages of New Guinea" and it lists
some pretty strange ways for splitting the pronominal space. The most
insane system are the singular pronouns of Ngala:
1.SG.M wɨn
1.SG.F nyɨn
2.SG.M mɨn
2.SG.F yɨn
3.SG.M kɨr
3.SG.F yɨn
First of all the language extends the masculine/feminine split into not
only the second person but all the way to the first person. On top of that
it doesn't distinguish the feminine second and third person singular
pronouns. I guess you have to have quite strict gender rules in your
society in order to make this kind of a system stable. Related languages
don't appear to be as insane as Ngala and only distinguish M/F in their
second and third person pronouns. They also have distinctly shaped pronouns
for both persons in both genders with the 2.SG.F pronoun providing an
obvious cognate for the Ngala 1.SG.F pronoun. The languages are also
reasonable in not extending the gender distinction into their dual and
plural pronouns.
Another strange feature of many Papuan languages is that there is
apparently often a connection between the second person singular and first
person non-singular pronouns. As an example Foley gives the personal
pronouns of Suki:
SG PL
1 ne e
2 e de
3 u i
Many languages of the area also make only partial person distinction in
their non-singular pronouns. So for example Awa contrasts in plural _ite_
(1/2.PL) with _se_ (3.PL) and Iatmul in dual _an_ (1.DU) with _mpɨk_
(2/3.DU).
Some of these features are very strange and I would have considered them
wildly unnaturalistic if I would have encountered them first in someone's
conlang.
None of the conlangs I'm working with does anything too strange with their
personal pronouns. I'm including a first person inclusive pronoun in Kišta
(which I'm just parsing together from a decade of sketching) that goes back
to a form *šən(ə). This can be broken down into the first person plural
pronominal base *šə and a suffix *-n(ə). The same, or at least very
similar, suffix has also worked as the dual suffix of nouns and can be seen
in various pair derivations in modern Kišta, such as:
*malə > malla ("eye")
*malə-n > malan ("the pair of eyes")
My rational for this development is that in discourse the first person dual
seems to be much more biased towards inclusive use ("you and I") than first
person plural. If the dual number erodes away, the first person dual
pronoun might just survive because of its inclusive use and generalise out
of the dual meaning. I don't know if such development is attested from any
natural language and would be glad to hear if anyone else knows.
-Jyri
2013/3/29 Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews <[email protected]>
> I'm also thinking they could be broken down into they, same gender for
> women, they, same gender for men, they, a man a woman alone, and they, a
> man
> a woman in a group. Then, there's they for the group as a whole, and they
> for part of the group.Wow! As if our language wasn't confusing enough.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:[email protected]] On
> Behalf Of Patrick Dunn
> Sent: Thursday, March 28, 2013 1:20 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: Creating A Prononominal System
>
> On Thu, Mar 28, 2013 at 3:15 PM, Daniel Burgener
> <[email protected]>wrote:
>
> > On Thu, Mar 28, 2013 at 5:02 PM, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews <
> > [email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > > I was tinking of a telephic pronoun. I also like pronouns that
> > distinguish
> > > merital status. I'm not sure how those would work.
> > >
> >
> > In a language I'm working on with a friend which is primarily for
> gossiping
> > about relationships, we mark marital status as well as gender on all
> nouns,
> > including pronouns. There are four marital statuses: "single", "dating",
> > "married" and "other". Nouns that aren't people are assigned both a
> gender
> > and a marital status somewhat arbitrarily. (The word for chair might be
> > married and female for example).
> >
>
> Oooh. The opportunity for metaphor there is wonderful. "I just found a
> chair.MAR at the thriftstore."
>
>
>
> --
> Second Person, a chapbook of poetry by Patrick Dunn, is now available for
> order from Finishing Line
> Press<
> http://www.finishinglinepress.com/NewReleasesandForthcomingTitles.htm>
> and
> Amazon<
> http://www.amazon.com/Second-Person-Patrick-Dunn/dp/1599249065/ref=sr
> _1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1324342341&sr=8-2>.
>
Messages in this topic (22)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
3a. More from the Popular Linguistics Front
Posted by: "Padraic Brown" [email protected]
Date: Fri Mar 29, 2013 10:45 am ((PDT))
http://news.yahoo.com/8-bizarre-sounds-youve-probably-made-without-knowing-111000931.html
Who would have guessed that Arabic speakers were actually hocking up bits
of popcorn husk??
Padraic
Messages in this topic (16)
________________________________________________________________________
3b. Re: More from the Popular Linguistics Front
Posted by: "George Corley" [email protected]
Date: Fri Mar 29, 2013 10:55 am ((PDT))
On Fri, Mar 29, 2013 at 12:45 PM, Padraic Brown <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> http://news.yahoo.com/8-bizarre-sounds-youve-probably-made-without-knowing-111000931.html
>
> Who would have guessed that Arabic speakers were actually hocking up bits
> of popcorn husk??
Oh so many errors:
In my experience anyway, raspberries are often linguolabial trills, not
bilabial trills.
Coughing up a popcorn husk? I could be wrong, but that doesn't seem right.
I guess some people use a uvular trill to imitate growing. I use it to
entertain babies.
"Tsk" is a _dental_ click.
Not sure on the lateral fricative.
Messages in this topic (16)
________________________________________________________________________
3c. Re: More from the Popular Linguistics Front
Posted by: "Krista D. Casada" [email protected]
Date: Fri Mar 29, 2013 11:03 am ((PDT))
Tsk. Definitely alveolar here. But maybe it's an allophone??
Krista Casada
________________________________________
From: Constructed Languages List [[email protected]] on behalf of
George Corley [[email protected]]
Sent: Friday, March 29, 2013 12:55 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: More from the Popular Linguistics Front
On Fri, Mar 29, 2013 at 12:45 PM, Padraic Brown <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> http://news.yahoo.com/8-bizarre-sounds-youve-probably-made-without-knowing-111000931.html
>
> Who would have guessed that Arabic speakers were actually hocking up bits
> of popcorn husk??
Oh so many errors:
In my experience anyway, raspberries are often linguolabial trills, not
bilabial trills.
Coughing up a popcorn husk? I could be wrong, but that doesn't seem right.
I guess some people use a uvular trill to imitate growing. I use it to
entertain babies.
"Tsk" is a _dental_ click.
Not sure on the lateral fricative.
Messages in this topic (16)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/conlang/
<*> Your email settings:
Digest Email | Traditional
<*> To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/conlang/join
(Yahoo! ID required)
<*> To change settings via email:
[email protected]
[email protected]
<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]
<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
------------------------------------------------------------------------
