There are 11 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. Re: New Year / Easter Greetings to All
From: Daniel Prohaska
1b. Re: New Year / Easter Greetings to All
From: Padraic Brown
1c. Re: New Year / Easter Greetings to All
From: George Corley
1d. Re: New Year / Easter Greetings to All
From: Padraic Brown
2a. Re: Chomskybot
From: Padraic Brown
2b. Re: Chomskybot
From: Gary Shannon
2c. Re: Chomskybot
From: Daniel Myers
2d. Re: Chomskybot
From: Roger Mills
3.1. META: Conlang-L FAQ
From: Henrik Theiling
4a. Kinship system of Fqasim (formerly known as čvuuţxh)
From: Jim Henry
4b. Re: Kinship system of Fqasim (formerly known as čvuuţxh)
From: Adam Walker
Messages
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1a. Re: New Year / Easter Greetings to All
Posted by: "Daniel Prohaska" [email protected]
Date: Sun Mar 31, 2013 5:54 pm ((PDT))
Anakun Skywalker was also of vergin birth.
Dan
Sent from my iPhone
On 31.03.2013, at 19:21, "C. Brickner" <[email protected]> wrote:
> Dangerously close to NCNC to claim that virgin birth, etc., are co-opted from
> other mythical traditions implying that they didn't really happen in the life
> of Jesus.
>
> That myths and legends evolved over time I do not doubt. That this is the
> case with respect to Jesus I deny.
>
> Charles
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> On Sun, Mar 31, 2013 at 11:09 AM, Roger Mills <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
> Um, it's a fairly common theory among Biblical scholars that "Son of God"
> was a very common title for spiritual teachers at the time, and it just
> happened to be co-opted into a larger mythos as the stories of Jesus took
> on virgin birth, resurrection, and miracle-performing elements from other
> mythical traditions.
>
> More basically -- myths and legends evolved over time. People don't even
> need to be "fooled" at the time -- subsequent generations will almost
> certainly have imperfect information and will even deliberately embellish
> stories for a variety of reasons.
Messages in this topic (12)
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1b. Re: New Year / Easter Greetings to All
Posted by: "Padraic Brown" [email protected]
Date: Sun Mar 31, 2013 7:32 pm ((PDT))
--- On Sun, 3/31/13, Roger Mills <[email protected]> wrote:
> This past season I've been considering trying to introduce a
> Christ-like analogue into Kash, Gwr, or maybe Lañ-lañ
> culture. The problem with it being Kash, is that, since
> everyone is telepathic to some extent, the High Priests
> who do the psychic probing/examining could well find that
> someone claiming to be the Son, or even an Emissary, of the
> Primum Mobile, was simply starkers. So it's probably going
> to be one of the other cultures, who don't have the Ability.
> We shall see.
I guess it would depend on what you take "Christ-like analog" to mean. If
you mean a person who fills a particular role in the story of a culture or
religion -- sort of like how Frodo or Luke Skywalker are seen as "Christ-
like analogs" in their respective worlds -- then you've got a pretty
straightforward job of sorting out some cultural details and writing up
the story.
If you mean the actual Emissary of the P.M., and also someone who is not
otherwise bonkers, then you'd also have a straightforward task. But you
will have to decide how the psychic priests and others react to this truth.
How they deal with the real McCoy.
If you mean a nut-job who makes empty (or mentally disturbed) claims, well,
then you'd have a different kind of story on your hands.
Whether the person in question is a nut or the real deal, you'd still have
to work out some cultural details: what kind of story does this character
fit in to; how does the P.M. operate within the world; etc. You might even
have to ask some very specific questions like: does this world actually
need a "Christ-like analog" / world savior figure if there is no original
fall from grace? What if only one of several races is "fallen"? Why does
this other world even need to parallel human history in this regard?
In the World, I assume the reality of that which lies behind the myth. So,
Emissary of the Heavenly Father -- check! What that exactly means and what
the nature of claims of virgin birth amounts to, I don't answer those
questions. (I leave those questions unanswered in real life as well, but
that's a different matter.) I do diverge in admitting to multiple / serial
incarnations, each having its particular scope and domain of activity.
This doesn't mean that all these Emissaries are "copies" of one another,
but appearing at different times in history. No, they all share the same
basic message and the same underlying principle; but their particular
actions, words and activities vary considerably. United in purpose,
divergent in expression.
Padraic
Messages in this topic (12)
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1c. Re: New Year / Easter Greetings to All
Posted by: "George Corley" [email protected]
Date: Sun Mar 31, 2013 7:44 pm ((PDT))
On Sun, Mar 31, 2013 at 9:32 PM, Padraic Brown <[email protected]> wrote:
> --- On Sun, 3/31/13, Roger Mills <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > This past season I've been considering trying to introduce a
> > Christ-like analogue into Kash, Gwr, or maybe Lañ-lañ
> > culture. The problem with it being Kash, is that, since
> > everyone is telepathic to some extent, the High Priests
> > who do the psychic probing/examining could well find that
> > someone claiming to be the Son, or even an Emissary, of the
> > Primum Mobile, was simply starkers. So it's probably going
> > to be one of the other cultures, who don't have the Ability.
> > We shall see.
>
> [snippit]
>
> If you mean the actual Emissary of the P.M., and also someone who is not
> otherwise bonkers, then you'd also have a straightforward task. But you
> will have to decide how the psychic priests and others react to this truth.
> How they deal with the real McCoy.
>
To be honest, it isn't immediately obvious that a telepath would be able to
determine whether someone is mentally ill. I would suspect that, depending
on how deep a telepath can probe into the subjects mind, it would probably
be far easier to determine whether someone was deliberately lying than
whether they believed something that was not true. How would you even
determine that their mental representation of the world is broken -- absent
methods of analysis developed outside of your telepathic powers?
Messages in this topic (12)
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1d. Re: New Year / Easter Greetings to All
Posted by: "Padraic Brown" [email protected]
Date: Mon Apr 1, 2013 3:52 am ((PDT))
--- On Sun, 3/31/13, George Corley <[email protected]> wrote:
> > If you mean the actual Emissary of the P.M., and also someone who is
> > not otherwise bonkers, then you'd also have a straightforward task.
> > But you will have to decide how the psychic priests and others react
> > to this truth. How they deal with the real McCoy.
>
> To be honest, it isn't immediately obvious that a telepath
> would be able to determine whether someone is mentally ill.
I guess it would depend on the powers these telepaths have. Perhaps some,
like the famous werehound physicians of Angera, who can sniff out a whole
host of ordinary diseases, there might be a psychic equivalent of the
very powerful sniffer.
> I would suspect that, depending on how deep a telepath can probe into
> the subjects mind, it would probably be far easier to determine whether
> someone was deliberately lying than whether they believed something that
> was not true.
Could well be. This would at least weed out some of the baser charlatans.
> How would you even determine that their mental representation of the
> world is broken -- absent methods of analysis developed outside of your
> telepathic powers?
I'm sure the peoples in question have some ideas already formed as to
what is "right".
But I wasn't really getting at how they would deal with an honest nut-case
(I don't think it would necessarily take a psychically gifted seeker to
sort that out) so much as how they would handle the Real Deal when it does
come along...
Padraic
Messages in this topic (12)
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2a. Re: Chomskybot
Posted by: "Padraic Brown" [email protected]
Date: Sun Mar 31, 2013 7:33 pm ((PDT))
--- On Sun, 3/31/13, Dustfinger Batailleur <[email protected]> wrote:
> This is actually amazing.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chomskybot
Yeah. That is amazingly comprehensible. If this bot puts out linguistic
gibberish, then one wonders what sorts of rubbish the actual linguist put
out? ;))
Padraic
Messages in this topic (6)
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2b. Re: Chomskybot
Posted by: "Gary Shannon" [email protected]
Date: Sun Mar 31, 2013 8:55 pm ((PDT))
I'd be interested in seeing a conlangbot that put out text that passes all
statistical tests for an actual language, but isn't. Kinda like a Voynich
generator, but with a known alphabet.
--gary
On Sun, Mar 31, 2013 at 7:33 PM, Padraic Brown <[email protected]> wrote:
> --- On Sun, 3/31/13, Dustfinger Batailleur <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > This is actually amazing.
> >
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chomskybot
>
> Yeah. That is amazingly comprehensible. If this bot puts out linguistic
> gibberish, then one wonders what sorts of rubbish the actual linguist put
> out? ;))
>
> Padraic
>
>
Messages in this topic (6)
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2c. Re: Chomskybot
Posted by: "Daniel Myers" [email protected]
Date: Sun Mar 31, 2013 9:13 pm ((PDT))
I wrote a program quite a while back that generated nonsense based on
text from Lovecraft's Cthulhu mythos. I had code that deconstructed the
source text and build new words based on letter and syllable patterns,
and then used the new words to construct sentence fragments. Those
fragments were then used to build text the same way as done by the
Chomskybot.
I suspect that it would pass at least some of the statistical tests for
a language, but its output is indeed gibberish.
http://www.medievalcookery.com/bookofrefreshments/cgi/pnakotic.pl
While the text generator is currently using the same sentence fragments
over and over, however I could probably combine the code for all the
steps pretty easily. Here's a sample of the output:
Zadai tsag nagn, coggoth ign zhol nkothai zophkaul gnuntath ph'ngla
shaagai wgua schi unai bung mnihi sauth yoth ngegn ygguthu nilabbai
nkaattath tsun ki yuttaong bung glath. R'loih untor mnath cfigar
wgobbiggua bui gho ph'nglac shuak paghyaem: shoghoir yiddah gnichos
untognaghal cthol nkobhoggighagl untognaghal hun gnichos ngharibbor
gnichos chagh coth gnuntath iteg ph'nglonthoiphki kagoqiggak sagl pnafl
yalha ithara gnosti yaggar ghoth. Cfagua, yalha chogn pna yokeh nuh,
waag untognaghal n'gaulattoa gnichos tastoa gnichos untognaghal wua
llenao schoh'nong ghag glar lauth wgua fezaddogogg zos ghogai. Nagons
tah gho ph'nglac tayazoa nuggal wguth pna yarlah ghabbugn gnichos
coggoth rhuk nkur cothlegn zolommoggir llokang r'lyeh ugn gnuntath
bothal mglw'noba choghoquth gafh ki aghaoh unai og ybbaufh lornar unai
ki fu. Llo hagn, shoghoir saghon fohang mglw'nethoith nonagg cfto ki hib
zadai op unai ki zoltgm.
- Doc
> -------- Original Message --------
> From: Gary Shannon <[email protected]>
> Date: Sun, March 31, 2013 11:55 pm
>
> I'd be interested in seeing a conlangbot that put out text that passes all
> statistical tests for an actual language, but isn't. Kinda like a Voynich
> generator, but with a known alphabet.
>
> --gary
>
>
> On Sun, Mar 31, 2013 at 7:33 PM, Padraic Brown <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > --- On Sun, 3/31/13, Dustfinger Batailleur <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > > This is actually amazing.
> > >
> > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chomskybot
> >
> > Yeah. That is amazingly comprehensible. If this bot puts out linguistic
> > gibberish, then one wonders what sorts of rubbish the actual linguist put
> > out? ;))
> >
> > Padraic
> >
> >
Messages in this topic (6)
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2d. Re: Chomskybot
Posted by: "Roger Mills" [email protected]
Date: Mon Apr 1, 2013 4:14 am ((PDT))
--- On Sun, 3/31/13, Padraic Brown <[email protected]> wrote:
--- On Sun, 3/31/13, Dustfinger Batailleur <[email protected]> wrote:
> This is actually amazing.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chomskybot
Yeah. That is amazingly comprehensible. If this bot puts out linguistic
gibberish, then one wonders what sorts of rubbish the actual linguist put
out? ;))
========================================================
I remember my very first course in grad school-- grammatical analysis seminar--
where my assignment was to compare Chomsky's Syntactic Structures model with
his later "improvement" (which it was) in Aspects. I'd read and digested SS,
but Aspects was one of those MEGO (my eyes glaze over) experiences. So this
stuff looks distressingly familiar :-P
Messages in this topic (6)
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3.1. META: Conlang-L FAQ
Posted by: "Henrik Theiling" [email protected]
Date: Sun Mar 31, 2013 8:05 pm ((PDT))
The following is the de facto Conlang-L FAQ, hosted at:
http://wiki.frath.net/Conlang-L_FAQ
This is automatically posted once a month, copied directly from that page,
for the benefit of new members. If you would like to change it, please
edit it at the link above.
**Henrik
==Where to get Conlang-L==
The official archives are at http://listserv.brown.edu/archives/conlang.html .
>From there, you can search the archives, get an RSS feed, manage your
subscription, etc.
It's also the ONLY place you can go to sign up and post things to the list.
A read-only archive with a nicer user interface is at
http://archives.conlang.info/ . [As of April 2009 this archive has ceased
mirroring new messages. Henrik Theiling knows about the problem and has said
he's planning to fix it but hasn't had time to do so yet.]
Conlang-L is also _mirrored_ as a Yahoo group, but there is no way to have
posts to the Yahoo group sent to the actual list. Do *not* subscribe to the
Yahoo group. It has no admin anymore. Go to
http://listserv.brown.edu/archives/conlang.html instead!
==A brief history of the list==
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''By agreement with John Ross, the CONLANG mailing list has been moved to
diku.dk, the mail hub of the CS Department of the University of Copenhagen.
Send all submissions to CONLANG at diku dot dk. The address at buphy still
works, but it is just an alias for the new list.''
''Lars Mathiesen (U of Copenhagen CS Dept) (Humour NOT marked)''
(Note that the submission address in that historical note '''NO LONGER
WORKS'''.)
Later, growing traffic and changes at the university necessitated a move. In
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University's LISTSERV server. David Durand made the move and actively
moderated the list from that point on.
Before the move, threads centered on debates on the relative merits of
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(Dispassionate discussion of auxlangs is welcome.)
In ??? John Cowan took over actual moderation duties, as "Lord of the
Instrumentality".
Later the torch was passed to Henrik Theiling.
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Posters are encouraged to consolidate several shorter replies on a single
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==Subject Topic Tags==
In the subject line of a post, you can mark the post with one of the following
tags. Tags are only recognised if a colon follows immediately: no other
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Finally, there are two meta-tags:
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Example:
JAMA says flat earth leads to flat [@] (was CHAT: Is the world really round?)
Note that tags ARE included after the "was", but "Re:" is NOT, nor is
[CONLANG].
==Acronyms==
List of acronyms specific to the Conlang Mailing List:
* AFMCL - "As for my conlang.."
** AFMOCL - "As for my own conlang"
* ANADEW - "A natlang's already dunnit, except worse"
* ANADEWism - Something you thought was unique, but ANADEW
* IML - "in my 'lect" (dialect or [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idiolect
idiolect], depending on context)
* LCC - the [http://conference.conlang.org Language Creation Conference]
* LCS - the [http://conlang.org Language Creation Society]
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religion or politics"
([http://recycledknowledge.blogspot.com/2006/05/no-cross-no-crown.html not its
more general meaning]).
* NLF2DWS or NLWS - Non-linear [fully 2-dimensional] writing system
* YAEPT (the original acronym) - Yet Another English Pronunciation Thread
** YADPT ... Dutch Pronunciation ...
** YAGPT ... German Pronunciation ...
** YAEGT ... English Grammar ...
** YAEUT ... English Usage ...
** general pattern: YA(Language)(Topic)T
Acronyms not on this list might be in general usage: try
[http://www.google.com/search?q=define%3Aafaict Google's define:] or
[http://www.acronymfinder.com/ Acronym Finder].
==Other conlang-specific vocabulary==
>From [http://cassowary.free.fr/Linguistics/Conlang%20Dictionary/ here] and
[http://arthaey.mine.nu/~arthaey/conlang/faq.html here]. See also [[Conlang
terminology]].
con__
* constructed __ (generally a contraction): conlang, conworld, conhistory,
conculture, ...
__lang
* a language characterised by ___ (generally a contraction): conlang, artlang,
auxlang, ...
[[artlang]]
# A language constructed for the beauty or fun of doing so. [From art(istic) +
lang(uage)]
# (See conlang) [From art(ificial) + lang(uage)]
[[auxlang]]
* A language constructed to replace or complement natlangs to facilitate
cross-linguistic communication. [From aux(iliary) + lang(uage)]
concultural [From con(structed) + cultur(e) + al]
* Adjective form of "conculture".
[[conculture]] [From con(structed) + culture]
* A fictional culture created as a backdrop to a conlang. See also "conworld".
[[conlang]] [From con(structed) + lang(uage)]
# n. A constructed language
# v. To construct a language
[[CONLANG]] (all caps), conlang-l, Conlang-L, or CONLANG-L
* A very active conlang mailing list hosted by brown.edu, and currently
operated by Henrik Theiling
[[conworld]] [From con(structed) + world]
* A fictional world created to host a conlang or conculture. See also
"conculture".
[[engelang]] /ˈendʒlæŋ/ [From eng(ineered) + lang(uage)]
* A conlang that is designed to certain criteria, such that it is objectively
testable whether the criteria are met or not. This is different from claiming
that the criteria themselves are 'objective'. For example, the Lojban/Loglan
roots are designed to be maximally recognisable to the speakers of the
(numerically) largest languages in the world in proportion to the number of
speakers. It is not a matter of taste whether this criterion is met; it is
something that can be tested. (by John Cowan) [From eng(ineered) + lang(uage)]
etabnannery /raːmnænəɹi/ (rare)
* The state of appearing entirely unpredictable, but, upon closer analysis,
failing at even being that. [From Etá̄bnann(i), a conlang by Tristan McLeay,
which was supposed to have an unpredictable orthography, but ended up just
having a confusing one. Damn people trying to make patterns everywhere. At
least it's a bugger to typeset!... errm... back to the derivation + -ery]
maggelity /məˈgɛlɪti/ (rare) [From Maggel, a conlang by Christophe
Grandsire which has a rarely predictable orthography]
# The state of being entirely unpredictable. (Tristan McLeay)
# The state of being regularly unpredictable, such as to horribly confuse
anyone unfamiliar with the language, lulling them into a full sense of
security before pointing out, cartoon-character-style, that the ground no
longer exists where they're standing. (Tristan McLeay and H. S. Teoh)
Maggel's Paradox (rare)
* Your radical ideas have already occurred to others. (Muke Tever)
[[natlang]] [From nat(ural) + lang(uage)]
# A natural language, i.e., one that naturally developed in the world, as
opposed to a conlang.
ObConlang (or ObCL)
* Just before something about conlanging in an otherwise off-topic post.
* From ob(ligatory) + conlang (i.e., an obligatory on-topic comment about
conlangs just so that the post isn't completely off-topic).
[[translation relay]]
* A game similar to Telephone or Chinese Whispers, wherein the participants
translate a passage one at a time, in serial, into their own languages - and
then marvel at how far from the original the translations have gotten.
==CXS (Conlang X-SAMPA)==
[[CXS]] is a version of X-SAMPA for use on the CONLANG mailing list. X-SAMPA
is a way to write the IPA (International Phonetic Alphabet) using normal
plain-ASCII text that everyone can read.
* [http://www.theiling.de/ipa/ Theiling Online: Conlang X-Sampa (CXS)] -
includes CXS-to-IPA conversion chart
* [http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Conlang/Appendix/CXS CXS at Wikibooks]
==Related lists==
The Auxlang list, mentioned above, is dedicated to international auxiliary
languages. Its archives and subscription interface are at
http://listserv.brown.edu/archives/auxlang.html .
The list [email protected] is dedicated to the planning and
conducting of [[conlang relay]]s, q.v.
==Resources==
* [http://www.arthaey.com/conlang/faq.html Arthaey's Conlang FAQ]
* [http://www.langmaker.com LangMaker] - repository of many conlang
"biographies"
* [http://wiki.frath.net Frath Wiki] - a similar site, and host of the
Conlang-L (wikified) FAQ
* [http://www.omniglot.com Omniglot] - which has information on more writing
systems than you thought could exist
{{Conlangculture}}
[[Category:Terminology]]
Messages in this topic (33)
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4a. Kinship system of Fqasim (formerly known as čvuuţxh)
Posted by: "Jim Henry" [email protected]
Date: Mon Apr 1, 2013 5:23 am ((PDT))
On Sun, Apr 1, 2012 at 8:37 PM, Jim Henry <[email protected]> wrote:
> Work on this conlang has been going pretty slowly, as gjâ-zym-byn is
> taking up most of my creative energies that don't go into writing
> fiction, but maybe by this time next year I'll have a phonology and a
> kinship system.
And here they are. Or at least, the kinship system; the phonology
isn't really interesting enough to do a whole post about.
The kinship system of Fqasim is based on coefficients of relationship
and relative gender. All relatives with the same coefficient of
relationship to the referent person (
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coefficient_of_relationship ) are denoted
by the same basic term. So one's parents, children, and full siblings
are all called "sqashan" or "sqashom". One's grandparents,
grandchildren, half-siblings, aunts, uncles, nephews, and nieces are
called "nizan" or "nizom". One's great-grandparents,
great-grandchildren, and first cousins are called "fpasiman" or
"fpasimom". People related to you more distantly than that are called
"zekaqan" or "zekaqom".
The suffixes "-an" and "-om" aren't simply masculine and feminine
endings, but mark *relative* gender. A sibling (for instance) more
masculine than oneself is called "sqashan", a sibling more feminine
than oneself is called "sqashom". Typically, a boy will call his
mother and sisters "sqashom", and will probably call his father
"sqashan", but might call some of his brothers "sqashan" and some
"sqashom". It's also possible that his tomboyish sister might call
him "sqashom". The same usage applies to "nizan" and "nizom", etc.
In-laws, step-parents, and other relatives by marriage are
analytically called e.g. "zhamsuan qi sqashom", "zhamsuom sqashansa",
etc. -- "spouse of one's sibling/parent/child," etc., with appropriate
possessive/genitive marking (which will be explained below). In this
context, "zhamsuan" or "zhamsuon" is marked for gender relative to the
sqashan or sqashom, not relative to the referent; so for instance, if
we see someone described as:
zhamsuan nizomsa qi Qazham
we know that this person is married to Qazham's *nizom*, and is
considered more masculine than Qazham's *nizom*, and we know that the
*nizom* has a coefficient of relationship of 25% with Qazham and is
considered more feminine than Qazham. We don't know the actual sex of
any of these people, though it's likely that the zhamsuan is male and
the nizom is female.
>From the "sa" suffix of "nizomsa", we also know that Qazham's nizom is
on good terms with their spouse, and from "qi" we know that Qazham is
not on such friendly terms with his or her nizom. "-sa" is a suffix
marking amiable possssion, in contrast with the preposition "qi"
marking inamiable possession. Amiable possession marks healthy body
parts, kinfolks one is on good terms with, and sometimes artifacts
with strong sentimental value. Inamiable possession marks unhealthy
body parts, kinfolks one is on the outs with, and artifacts one has no
emotional attachment to. So, for instance,
sefki tasa
my (healthy) arm
sefki qi ta
my broken arm
--
Jim Henry
http://www.pobox.com/~jimhenry/
http://www.jimhenrymedicaltrust.org
Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
4b. Re: Kinship system of Fqasim (formerly known as čvuuţxh)
Posted by: "Adam Walker" [email protected]
Date: Mon Apr 1, 2013 5:39 am ((PDT))
Very interesting stuff there. Any ANADEW for the kinship system? And I
really like the distinction in possessives! Major coolness.
Adam
On 4/1/13, Jim Henry <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Sun, Apr 1, 2012 at 8:37 PM, Jim Henry <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Work on this conlang has been going pretty slowly, as gjâ-zym-byn is
>> taking up most of my creative energies that don't go into writing
>> fiction, but maybe by this time next year I'll have a phonology and a
>> kinship system.
>
> And here they are. Or at least, the kinship system; the phonology
> isn't really interesting enough to do a whole post about.
>
> The kinship system of Fqasim is based on coefficients of relationship
> and relative gender. All relatives with the same coefficient of
> relationship to the referent person (
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coefficient_of_relationship ) are denoted
> by the same basic term. So one's parents, children, and full siblings
> are all called "sqashan" or "sqashom". One's grandparents,
> grandchildren, half-siblings, aunts, uncles, nephews, and nieces are
> called "nizan" or "nizom". One's great-grandparents,
> great-grandchildren, and first cousins are called "fpasiman" or
> "fpasimom". People related to you more distantly than that are called
> "zekaqan" or "zekaqom".
>
> The suffixes "-an" and "-om" aren't simply masculine and feminine
> endings, but mark *relative* gender. A sibling (for instance) more
> masculine than oneself is called "sqashan", a sibling more feminine
> than oneself is called "sqashom". Typically, a boy will call his
> mother and sisters "sqashom", and will probably call his father
> "sqashan", but might call some of his brothers "sqashan" and some
> "sqashom". It's also possible that his tomboyish sister might call
> him "sqashom". The same usage applies to "nizan" and "nizom", etc.
>
> In-laws, step-parents, and other relatives by marriage are
> analytically called e.g. "zhamsuan qi sqashom", "zhamsuom sqashansa",
> etc. -- "spouse of one's sibling/parent/child," etc., with appropriate
> possessive/genitive marking (which will be explained below). In this
> context, "zhamsuan" or "zhamsuon" is marked for gender relative to the
> sqashan or sqashom, not relative to the referent; so for instance, if
> we see someone described as:
>
> zhamsuan nizomsa qi Qazham
>
> we know that this person is married to Qazham's *nizom*, and is
> considered more masculine than Qazham's *nizom*, and we know that the
> *nizom* has a coefficient of relationship of 25% with Qazham and is
> considered more feminine than Qazham. We don't know the actual sex of
> any of these people, though it's likely that the zhamsuan is male and
> the nizom is female.
>
> From the "sa" suffix of "nizomsa", we also know that Qazham's nizom is
> on good terms with their spouse, and from "qi" we know that Qazham is
> not on such friendly terms with his or her nizom. "-sa" is a suffix
> marking amiable possssion, in contrast with the preposition "qi"
> marking inamiable possession. Amiable possession marks healthy body
> parts, kinfolks one is on good terms with, and sometimes artifacts
> with strong sentimental value. Inamiable possession marks unhealthy
> body parts, kinfolks one is on the outs with, and artifacts one has no
> emotional attachment to. So, for instance,
>
> sefki tasa
> my (healthy) arm
>
> sefki qi ta
> my broken arm
>
> --
> Jim Henry
> http://www.pobox.com/~jimhenry/
> http://www.jimhenrymedicaltrust.org
>
Messages in this topic (2)
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