There are 15 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. Re: Conlangs and English Language History
From: Herman Miller
1b. Re: Conlangs and English Language History
From: BPJ
1c. Re: Conlangs and English Language History
From: BPJ
1d. Re: Conlangs and English Language History
From: Alex Fink
1e. Re: Conlangs and English Language History
From: Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
1f. Re: Conlangs and English Language History
From: Padraic Brown
1g. Re: Conlangs and English Language History
From: Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
1h. Re: Conlangs and English Language History
From: James Kane
1i. Re: Conlangs and English Language History
From: Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
2a. Numbers for Janko
From: Sylvia Sotomayor
2b. Re: Numbers for Janko
From: H. S. Teoh
2c. Re: Numbers for Janko
From: Cosman246
3. my newest con-auxlang
From: Njenfalgar
4. another indexing sketch
From: neo gu
5.1. Vidal, a new constructed language like Volapük
From: Michael Everson
Messages
________________________________________________________________________
1a. Re: Conlangs and English Language History
Posted by: "Herman Miller" [email protected]
Date: Sun Apr 28, 2013 9:36 am ((PDT))
On 4/28/2013 6:45 AM, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews wrote:
> Thanks, guys. I know I French the grave accent is over the a and E has its
> own accent. But I want the symbols to stand alone.
You might check out the Cyrillic letter "palochka"
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palochka) and see if that's what you're
thinking of. It's used to mark ejective consonants in some Caucasian
languages.
Your original question though was about the star and ampersand. There's
a letter that represents a click sound, U+01C3 in Unicode, which looks
the same as an exclamation mark. I've read that Marshallese (a language
spoken in the Marshall Islands) used the ampersand to represent a vowel
sound. I don't think the asterisk would likely be used as a letter, but
at least there's a precedent for symbols being used as letters.
Messages in this topic (24)
________________________________________________________________________
1b. Re: Conlangs and English Language History
Posted by: "BPJ" [email protected]
Date: Sun Apr 28, 2013 12:04 pm ((PDT))
2013-04-27 18:03, H. S. Teoh skrev:
> Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but when I see things like Russian
> _его_ (3SG acc.) vs. Greek _á¼Î³Ï_ (1SG nom.), or English_me_ (1SG acc.)
> vs. Russian _мÑ_ (1PL nom.), it makes me wonder if they're cognates,
No they aren't. Mind you in Proto-Slavic */o:/, */a:/ > */a:/ >
/a/ and */o/, */a/ > */a/ > /o/[^1], while Ñ < */u:/!
[^1]: Proto-Germanic had the same merger but there the merged
*/a:/ > */o:/ and the merged */a/ > */a/ while new /a:/ and /o/
arose from other processes.
/bpj
Messages in this topic (24)
________________________________________________________________________
1c. Re: Conlangs and English Language History
Posted by: "BPJ" [email protected]
Date: Sun Apr 28, 2013 12:31 pm ((PDT))
2013-04-28 18:36, Herman Miller skrev:
> On 4/28/2013 6:45 AM, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews wrote:
>> Thanks, guys. I know I French the grave accent is over the a and
>> E has its
>> own accent. But I want the symbols to stand alone.
>
> You might check out the Cyrillic letter "palochka"
> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palochka) and see if that's what
> you're thinking of. It's used to mark ejective consonants in some
> Caucasian languages.
>
> Your original question though was about the star and ampersand.
> There's a letter that represents a click sound, U+01C3 in Unicode,
> which looks the same as an exclamation mark. I've read that
> Marshallese (a language spoken in the Marshall Islands) used the
> ampersand to represent a vowel sound. I don't think the asterisk
> would likely be used as a letter, but at least there's a precedent
> for symbols being used as letters.
>
There is a *bit* of a problem with punctuation etc. compared to
letters that they have no upper/lower case, if you care about
such. When the apostrophe and inverted apostrophe are used to
transliterate Arabic letters the rule is to capitalize the
following vowel if needed. I have sometines used punctuation
characters in digraphs, always along with a letter, and
capitalizing the letter as needed. OTOH if you don't care
about case there's nothing to stop you from using upper-
and lower-case letters for different phonemes, though I guess
that may not come in as handy when you use a screenreader and/or
Braille!
2013-04-28 12:52, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews skrev:> I'd
thought about creating another system, but not sure how I could
> represent it on the computer or in Braille for that matter.
They do use
> leather scrolls called Prailea, which is similar to Braille in
that it's
> raised. However, everyone uses it, unless they're men, who
can't read nor
> write, and those with reading disabilities.
If the material is anything like our leather I think it
more likely that they'd punch or burn holes in the leather,
or the markings would disappear when the leather moistens
or dries.
Come to think of it: making Braille patterns in leather or
fabric with studs would be totally cool -- if someone my age
may be forgiven for using such language! ;-)
/bpj
/bpj
Messages in this topic (24)
________________________________________________________________________
1d. Re: Conlangs and English Language History
Posted by: "Alex Fink" [email protected]
Date: Sun Apr 28, 2013 2:09 pm ((PDT))
On Sun, 28 Apr 2013 03:52:56 -0700, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
<[email protected]> wrote:
>I'd thought about creating another system, but not sure how I could
>represent it on the computer or in Braille for that matter.
Using a transcription.
In the simplest case, this is what we do with Greek and Russian and so forth.
The Greek letters -- alpha, beta, gamma, and so forth -- are their own letters
with their own shapes, but when circumstances compel one to write Greek with
the ordinary Roman alphabet, one can do so just by representing each letter
with a Roman analogue: 'a' instead of alpha, 'b' instead of beta, etc. And
there's no reason you can't use multiple letters to transcribe a given one,
like 'th' for theta (or use other variations).
So, on this mailing list, where there have historically been problems with
fancy character sets, I might write out the start of the Iliad this way:
Me:nin aeide thea Pe:le:iadeo: Achile:os
oulomene:n, he: muri' Achaiois alge' ethe:ke,
(I don't know if your screen-reader will butcher the words with colons in them.
I used colons for the long vowels, eta and omega.)
You can even extend this to writing systems that work nothing like an alphabet,
such as logographic systems (where some characters stand for words, not
sounds), or complex scripts that mix the two. And you have a choice of how to
do it: you can make your transcription work character by character, or you can
do it in a way reflecting the underlying spoken language better than the real
writing system does.
For example, both approaches have been used for cuneiform. The first phrase of
the Codex of Hammurabi, in Akkadian, could be represented sign-by-sign (we say
"transliterated") this way:
i2-nu AN s.i-ru-um LUGAL ^d A-nun-na-ki
The first character, "i2", is a syllable character standing for the syllable
/i/ (the 2 means it's the second such character in a standard list we have);
"nu" is a syllable character standing for /nu/; these are both uppercase. Next
comes "AN", which we write in uppercase to make clear that it's being used for
its meaning, "heaven". In Akkadian the word is /anum/, but in Sumerian it was
just /an/ and that's what our transcription is based on. Next come three more
syllable characters, then another word character, "LUGAL" meaning "king", and
read /Sar/ ("shar") in Akkadian (here's a case where the Akkadian and Sumerian
are completely different). After that is "^d" [really, I mean a superscript
d], which is a character in the writing system with no sound at all. Its
function is just to help the reader out by saying 'hey, the next word is the
name of a god'.
If I wanted to make a transcription which represented just the Akkadian sound,
I could do that instead, and write the same cuneiform passage this way:
inu anum s.iirum shar Anunnaki
Alex
Messages in this topic (24)
________________________________________________________________________
1e. Re: Conlangs and English Language History
Posted by: "Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews" [email protected]
Date: Sun Apr 28, 2013 2:37 pm ((PDT))
In Braille, each letter in the alphabet represents a word in print. That's
Grade 2 braille, so I suppose I could use the same principles except there's no
Grade 2 Yardish.
Thanks.
-----Original Message-----
From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf
Of Alex Fink
Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2013 2:09 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Conlangs and English Language History
On Sun, 28 Apr 2013 03:52:56 -0700, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
<[email protected]> wrote:
>I'd thought about creating another system, but not sure how I could
>represent it on the computer or in Braille for that matter.
Using a transcription.
In the simplest case, this is what we do with Greek and Russian and so forth.
The Greek letters -- alpha, beta, gamma, and so forth -- are their own letters
with their own shapes, but when circumstances compel one to write Greek with
the ordinary Roman alphabet, one can do so just by representing each letter
with a Roman analogue: 'a' instead of alpha, 'b' instead of beta, etc. And
there's no reason you can't use multiple letters to transcribe a given one,
like 'th' for theta (or use other variations).
So, on this mailing list, where there have historically been problems with
fancy character sets, I might write out the start of the Iliad this way:
Me:nin aeide thea Pe:le:iadeo: Achile:os
oulomene:n, he: muri' Achaiois alge' ethe:ke,
(I don't know if your screen-reader will butcher the words with colons in them.
I used colons for the long vowels, eta and omega.)
You can even extend this to writing systems that work nothing like an alphabet,
such as logographic systems (where some characters stand for words, not
sounds), or complex scripts that mix the two. And you have a choice of how to
do it: you can make your transcription work character by character, or you can
do it in a way reflecting the underlying spoken language better than the real
writing system does.
For example, both approaches have been used for cuneiform. The first phrase of
the Codex of Hammurabi, in Akkadian, could be represented sign-by-sign (we say
"transliterated") this way:
i2-nu AN s.i-ru-um LUGAL ^d A-nun-na-ki
The first character, "i2", is a syllable character standing for the syllable
/i/ (the 2 means it's the second such character in a standard list we have);
"nu" is a syllable character standing for /nu/; these are both uppercase. Next
comes "AN", which we write in uppercase to make clear that it's being used for
its meaning, "heaven". In Akkadian the word is /anum/, but in Sumerian it was
just /an/ and that's what our transcription is based on. Next come three more
syllable characters, then another word character, "LUGAL" meaning "king", and
read /Sar/ ("shar") in Akkadian (here's a case where the Akkadian and Sumerian
are completely different). After that is "^d" [really, I mean a superscript
d], which is a character in the writing system with no sound at all. Its
function is just to help the reader out by saying 'hey, the next word is the
name of a god'.
If I wanted to make a transcription which represented just the Akkadian sound,
I could do that instead, and write the same cuneiform passage this way:
inu anum s.iirum shar Anunnaki
Alex
Messages in this topic (24)
________________________________________________________________________
1f. Re: Conlangs and English Language History
Posted by: "Padraic Brown" [email protected]
Date: Sun Apr 28, 2013 5:41 pm ((PDT))
--- On Sun, 4/28/13, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews <[email protected]>
wrote:
> Thanks, guys. I know I French the grave accent is over the a and E has
> its own accent. But I want the symbols to stand alone.
These characters are certainly accessible as part of the character set, so
yes, you CAN use them for any purpose you'd like.
I would only offer this caveat: folks here on the list will be more
forgiving of your use of accents as letters (if you take reasonable
care in describing what kind of sound goes with what character), but
I would strongly recommend devising a fairly standard transcription
for whenever you discuss Yemoran words here. The caveat is simply that
any prospective readers of your stories will be orders of magnitude
less forgiving. It wasn't so long ago, when Lorinda first published her
Termite Queen series and one of the first reviews panned her use of
the apostrophe as a morpheme separator within her transcription of the
Shshi language. If you just write whole long strings of "%^# @@! *^(#$"
I think this will be a much less popular idea than if you try to devise
a really good romanisation for the Yemorans' language. I know it will
be a wild sounding language, cos you've described them as being rather
insectile and having different arrangements of orifices for speaking.
> I'd thought about creating another system, but not sure how I could
> represent it on the computer or in Braille for that matter. They do use
> leather scrolls called Prailea, which is similar to Braille in that it's
> raised.
Others have already mentioned some problems regarding braille on leather.
You might consider stamping or impressing the leather with depressions in
stead of raised dots. Less likely to be worn down that way. Or as an
alternative, impress the leather with the empty field that surrounds the
raised dots (which themselves are unaltered leather surface). So, braille
comes in a 3x2 grid (as I recall) -- the device would simply consist of
a flat surfaced metal leather stamp with an opening in the middle to
represent the dot. The leather brailler simply has to work at stamping in
all the right places to create the dot patterns required.
> However, everyone uses it, unless they're men, who can't read nor
> write
Interesting about males not using it. Why is this?
Padraic
Messages in this topic (24)
________________________________________________________________________
1g. Re: Conlangs and English Language History
Posted by: "Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews" [email protected]
Date: Sun Apr 28, 2013 6:00 pm ((PDT))
Good idea about having the leather stamped with emputy fields surrounding
the dots. Thanks.
Men aren't taught to read or write. I'm thinking the women fear the men will
try to change the laws if they know how to read, as men will find it harder
to make their feelings about unequal rights known if they can't prove it's
true with written words.
-----Original Message-----
From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of Padraic Brown
Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2013 5:41 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Conlangs and English Language History
--- On Sun, 4/28/13, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews <[email protected]>
wrote:
> Thanks, guys. I know I French the grave accent is over the a and E has
> its own accent. But I want the symbols to stand alone.
These characters are certainly accessible as part of the character set, so
yes, you CAN use them for any purpose you'd like.
I would only offer this caveat: folks here on the list will be more
forgiving of your use of accents as letters (if you take reasonable
care in describing what kind of sound goes with what character), but
I would strongly recommend devising a fairly standard transcription
for whenever you discuss Yemoran words here. The caveat is simply that
any prospective readers of your stories will be orders of magnitude
less forgiving. It wasn't so long ago, when Lorinda first published her
Termite Queen series and one of the first reviews panned her use of
the apostrophe as a morpheme separator within her transcription of the
Shshi language. If you just write whole long strings of "%^# @@! *^(#$"
I think this will be a much less popular idea than if you try to devise
a really good romanisation for the Yemorans' language. I know it will
be a wild sounding language, cos you've described them as being rather
insectile and having different arrangements of orifices for speaking.
> I'd thought about creating another system, but not sure how I could
> represent it on the computer or in Braille for that matter. They do use
> leather scrolls called Prailea, which is similar to Braille in that it's
> raised.
Others have already mentioned some problems regarding braille on leather.
You might consider stamping or impressing the leather with depressions in
stead of raised dots. Less likely to be worn down that way. Or as an
alternative, impress the leather with the empty field that surrounds the
raised dots (which themselves are unaltered leather surface). So, braille
comes in a 3x2 grid (as I recall) -- the device would simply consist of
a flat surfaced metal leather stamp with an opening in the middle to
represent the dot. The leather brailler simply has to work at stamping in
all the right places to create the dot patterns required.
> However, everyone uses it, unless they're men, who can't read nor
> write
Interesting about males not using it. Why is this?
Padraic
Messages in this topic (24)
________________________________________________________________________
1h. Re: Conlangs and English Language History
Posted by: "James Kane" [email protected]
Date: Sun Apr 28, 2013 8:17 pm ((PDT))
I like the idea of using a manual writing system on leather, and the fact that
you're using leather as the writing medium makes it believable that such a
system would come about. Simply punching holes would be easier as you would
only need one sharp instrument to do it, rather than a set of stamps for each
character which is what I assume was meant. Probably the first one would be for
informal, 'handwritten' notes and the stamps would be akin to print. I'm
imagining that a printing press would be invented at some point.
With regards to the male-female thing, could it be that the females simply
disregard men as sub-Yemoran? As an analogue to the way women were treated here
in many cultures?
James
On 29/04/2013, at 3:59 PM, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
<[email protected]> wrote:
> Good idea about having the leather stamped with emputy fields surrounding
> the dots. Thanks.
>
> Men aren't taught to read or write. I'm thinking the women fear the men will
> try to change the laws if they know how to read, as men will find it harder
> to make their feelings about unequal rights known if they can't prove it's
> true with written words.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:[email protected]] On
> Behalf Of Padraic Brown
> Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2013 5:41 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: Conlangs and English Language History
>
> --- On Sun, 4/28/13, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>> Thanks, guys. I know I French the grave accent is over the a and E has
>> its own accent. But I want the symbols to stand alone.
>
> These characters are certainly accessible as part of the character set, so
> yes, you CAN use them for any purpose you'd like.
>
> I would only offer this caveat: folks here on the list will be more
> forgiving of your use of accents as letters (if you take reasonable
> care in describing what kind of sound goes with what character), but
> I would strongly recommend devising a fairly standard transcription
> for whenever you discuss Yemoran words here. The caveat is simply that
> any prospective readers of your stories will be orders of magnitude
> less forgiving. It wasn't so long ago, when Lorinda first published her
> Termite Queen series and one of the first reviews panned her use of
> the apostrophe as a morpheme separator within her transcription of the
> Shshi language. If you just write whole long strings of "%^# @@! *^(#$"
> I think this will be a much less popular idea than if you try to devise
> a really good romanisation for the Yemorans' language. I know it will
> be a wild sounding language, cos you've described them as being rather
> insectile and having different arrangements of orifices for speaking.
>
>
>> I'd thought about creating another system, but not sure how I could
>> represent it on the computer or in Braille for that matter. They do use
>> leather scrolls called Prailea, which is similar to Braille in that it's
>> raised.
>
> Others have already mentioned some problems regarding braille on leather.
> You might consider stamping or impressing the leather with depressions in
> stead of raised dots. Less likely to be worn down that way. Or as an
> alternative, impress the leather with the empty field that surrounds the
> raised dots (which themselves are unaltered leather surface). So, braille
> comes in a 3x2 grid (as I recall) -- the device would simply consist of
> a flat surfaced metal leather stamp with an opening in the middle to
> represent the dot. The leather brailler simply has to work at stamping in
> all the right places to create the dot patterns required.
>
>> However, everyone uses it, unless they're men, who can't read nor
>> write
>
> Interesting about males not using it. Why is this?
>
> Padraic
Messages in this topic (24)
________________________________________________________________________
1i. Re: Conlangs and English Language History
Posted by: "Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews" [email protected]
Date: Sun Apr 28, 2013 8:37 pm ((PDT))
Yes, about women regarding men as sub-Yemoran. There's another language
called Tangelian, for people who can't communicate due to deafness or other
communicative disorders. Maybe the stamps could also be used fo them, jst
pictorial stamps. They have a Prailea press for large documents. Maybe the
stylus could make empty fields, and those fields could represent spaces.
-----Original Message-----
From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of James Kane
Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2013 8:18 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Conlangs and English Language History
I like the idea of using a manual writing system on leather, and the fact
that you're using leather as the writing medium makes it believable that
such a system would come about. Simply punching holes would be easier as you
would only need one sharp instrument to do it, rather than a set of stamps
for each character which is what I assume was meant. Probably the first one
would be for informal, 'handwritten' notes and the stamps would be akin to
print. I'm imagining that a printing press would be invented at some point.
With regards to the male-female thing, could it be that the females simply
disregard men as sub-Yemoran? As an analogue to the way women were treated
here in many cultures?
James
On 29/04/2013, at 3:59 PM, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
<[email protected]> wrote:
> Good idea about having the leather stamped with emputy fields surrounding
> the dots. Thanks.
>
> Men aren't taught to read or write. I'm thinking the women fear the men
will
> try to change the laws if they know how to read, as men will find it
harder
> to make their feelings about unequal rights known if they can't prove it's
> true with written words.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:[email protected]] On
> Behalf Of Padraic Brown
> Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2013 5:41 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: Conlangs and English Language History
>
> --- On Sun, 4/28/13, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
<[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>> Thanks, guys. I know I French the grave accent is over the a and E has
>> its own accent. But I want the symbols to stand alone.
>
> These characters are certainly accessible as part of the character set, so
> yes, you CAN use them for any purpose you'd like.
>
> I would only offer this caveat: folks here on the list will be more
> forgiving of your use of accents as letters (if you take reasonable
> care in describing what kind of sound goes with what character), but
> I would strongly recommend devising a fairly standard transcription
> for whenever you discuss Yemoran words here. The caveat is simply that
> any prospective readers of your stories will be orders of magnitude
> less forgiving. It wasn't so long ago, when Lorinda first published her
> Termite Queen series and one of the first reviews panned her use of
> the apostrophe as a morpheme separator within her transcription of the
> Shshi language. If you just write whole long strings of "%^# @@! *^(#$"
> I think this will be a much less popular idea than if you try to devise
> a really good romanisation for the Yemorans' language. I know it will
> be a wild sounding language, cos you've described them as being rather
> insectile and having different arrangements of orifices for speaking.
>
>
>> I'd thought about creating another system, but not sure how I could
>> represent it on the computer or in Braille for that matter. They do use
>> leather scrolls called Prailea, which is similar to Braille in that it's
>> raised.
>
> Others have already mentioned some problems regarding braille on leather.
> You might consider stamping or impressing the leather with depressions in
> stead of raised dots. Less likely to be worn down that way. Or as an
> alternative, impress the leather with the empty field that surrounds the
> raised dots (which themselves are unaltered leather surface). So, braille
> comes in a 3x2 grid (as I recall) -- the device would simply consist of
> a flat surfaced metal leather stamp with an opening in the middle to
> represent the dot. The leather brailler simply has to work at stamping in
> all the right places to create the dot patterns required.
>
>> However, everyone uses it, unless they're men, who can't read nor
>> write
>
> Interesting about males not using it. Why is this?
>
> Padraic
Messages in this topic (24)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
2a. Numbers for Janko
Posted by: "Sylvia Sotomayor" [email protected]
Date: Sun Apr 28, 2013 4:59 pm ((PDT))
For my new language, sodna-lÉni:
Count Adj Adverb (Times)
one anda and(a)- andaya
two ÉnÉ Én(a)- Éneya
three hada had(a)- hadaya
four ala al(a)- alaya
five amma amm(a)- ɪyÉ amma
six teha teh(a)- ɪyÉ teha
seven onna onn(a)- ɪyÉ onna
eight nonda nond(a)-ɪyÉ nonda
nine adba adb(a)- ɪyÉ adba
ten dadÉn dadÉn- ɪyÉ dadÉn
eleven obiɬ obiɬ- ɪyÉ obiɬ
twelve adaɬ adaɬ- ɪyÉ adaɬ
Numbers are generally treated as adjectives and follow the noun. However, a
number can precede the noun and act like a quantifier if referring to all
of the nouns. So,
kodna Énna two boys
Énna kodna both boys
kodna hadna three boys
hadna kodna all three boys
nadna kodna all boys
I have not yet figured out if the counting system is base 8 or base 10 or
even base 12.
-S
--
Sylvia Sotomayor
The sooner I fall behind the more time I have to catch up.
Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
2b. Re: Numbers for Janko
Posted by: "H. S. Teoh" [email protected]
Date: Sun Apr 28, 2013 9:16 pm ((PDT))
On Sun, Apr 28, 2013 at 04:58:57PM -0700, Sylvia Sotomayor wrote:
> For my new language, sodna-lÉni:
>
> Count Adj Adverb (Times)
> one anda and(a)- andaya
> two ÉnÉ Én(a)- Éneya
> three hada had(a)- hadaya
> four ala al(a)- alaya
> five amma amm(a)- ɪyÉ amma
> six teha teh(a)- ɪyÉ teha
> seven onna onn(a)- ɪyÉ onna
> eight nonda nond(a)-ɪyÉ nonda
> nine adba adb(a)- ɪyÉ adba
> ten dadÉn dadÉn- ɪyÉ dadÉn
> eleven obiɬ obiɬ- ɪyÉ obiɬ
> twelve adaɬ adaɬ- ɪyÉ adaɬ
In Tatari Faran, adverbial numerals are indicated by modifying a base
numeral with the particle _me_:
tsana jiras me.
speak one time(s)
Speak once.
tsana bunas me.
speak two time(s)
Speak twice.
There's also another numeral-modifying particle _te'_ that turns a
regular (cardinal) number into an ordinal number (first, second, etc.):
diru jiras sei.
girl one CVY:FEM
One girl.
diru jiras te' sei.
girl one ORD CVY:FEM
The first girl.
An alternative form of ordinals involves using the compositive /
appositive case of the numeral, in which case the numeral is interpreted
in a qualitative, rather than quantitative sense:
diru ijirasan sei.
diru i-jiras-an sei.
girl COMP-one-COMP CVY:FEM
The best girl (the number-one girl).
diru ibunasan sei.
diru i-bunas-an sei.
girl COMP-two-COMP CVY:FEM
The second best girl.
How does sodna-lÉni handle ordinal numbers?
> Numbers are generally treated as adjectives and follow the noun.
> However, a number can precede the noun and act like a quantifier if
> referring to all of the nouns. So,
> kodna Énna two boys
> Énna kodna both boys
> kodna hadna three boys
> hadna kodna all three boys
> nadna kodna all boys
[...]
Interesting. Tatari Faran also has a distinction between a numeral
preceding a noun vs. following it:
Numeral in adjectival position (following a noun):
samat di'as sa
samat di'as sa
man three CVY:MASC
Three men (that haven't been mentioned yet).
This is the indefinite construct, used to introduce new referents to a
narrative.
Numeral in head position (preceding a noun in partitive case):
di'as samatis sa
di'as samat-is sa
three man-PART CVY:MASC
Three of the men / The three men.
This is the definite construct, and can either refer to a subset of a
previously mentioned group (three of the (e.g. fifty) men), or it can
refer to all of the group (the three of the three men mentioned
earlier), in which case it functions purely to mark definiteness.
T
--
Ðил-бÑл коÑÐ¾Ð»Ñ ÐºÐ¾Ð³Ð´Ð°-Ñо, пÑи нÑм блоÑ
а жила.
Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
2c. Re: Numbers for Janko
Posted by: "Cosman246" [email protected]
Date: Sun Apr 28, 2013 9:33 pm ((PDT))
For my conlang-in-progress Reconstructed Ṫirdonic (a dot indicates
aspiration, where it was impossible to put, I replaced it with an
apostrophe):
on
don
zan
yong
Ä¡u
wik'
sak
yat
á¸az
-Yash Tulsyan
"Once men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this
would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to
enslave them." --Dune
"If voting changed anything, they'd make it illegal" -Emma Goldman
On Sun, Apr 28, 2013 at 9:14 PM, H. S. Teoh <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Sun, Apr 28, 2013 at 04:58:57PM -0700, Sylvia Sotomayor wrote:
> > For my new language, sodna-lÉni:
> >
> > Count Adj Adverb (Times)
> > one anda and(a)- andaya
> > two ÉnÉ Én(a)- Éneya
> > three hada had(a)- hadaya
> > four ala al(a)- alaya
> > five amma amm(a)- ɪyÉ amma
> > six teha teh(a)- ɪyÉ teha
> > seven onna onn(a)- ɪyÉ onna
> > eight nonda nond(a)-ɪyÉ nonda
> > nine adba adb(a)- ɪyÉ adba
> > ten dadÉn dadÉn- ɪyÉ dadÉn
> > eleven obiɬ obiɬ- ɪyÉ obiɬ
> > twelve adaɬ adaɬ- ɪyÉ adaɬ
>
> In Tatari Faran, adverbial numerals are indicated by modifying a base
> numeral with the particle _me_:
>
> tsana jiras me.
> speak one time(s)
> Speak once.
>
> tsana bunas me.
> speak two time(s)
> Speak twice.
>
> There's also another numeral-modifying particle _te'_ that turns a
> regular (cardinal) number into an ordinal number (first, second, etc.):
>
> diru jiras sei.
> girl one CVY:FEM
> One girl.
>
> diru jiras te' sei.
> girl one ORD CVY:FEM
> The first girl.
>
> An alternative form of ordinals involves using the compositive /
> appositive case of the numeral, in which case the numeral is interpreted
> in a qualitative, rather than quantitative sense:
>
> diru ijirasan sei.
> diru i-jiras-an sei.
> girl COMP-one-COMP CVY:FEM
> The best girl (the number-one girl).
>
> diru ibunasan sei.
> diru i-bunas-an sei.
> girl COMP-two-COMP CVY:FEM
> The second best girl.
>
> How does sodna-lÉni handle ordinal numbers?
>
>
> > Numbers are generally treated as adjectives and follow the noun.
> > However, a number can precede the noun and act like a quantifier if
> > referring to all of the nouns. So,
> > kodna Énna two boys
> > Énna kodna both boys
> > kodna hadna three boys
> > hadna kodna all three boys
> > nadna kodna all boys
> [...]
>
> Interesting. Tatari Faran also has a distinction between a numeral
> preceding a noun vs. following it:
>
> Numeral in adjectival position (following a noun):
>
> samat di'as sa
> samat di'as sa
> man three CVY:MASC
> Three men (that haven't been mentioned yet).
>
> This is the indefinite construct, used to introduce new referents to a
> narrative.
>
> Numeral in head position (preceding a noun in partitive case):
>
> di'as samatis sa
> di'as samat-is sa
> three man-PART CVY:MASC
> Three of the men / The three men.
>
> This is the definite construct, and can either refer to a subset of a
> previously mentioned group (three of the (e.g. fifty) men), or it can
> refer to all of the group (the three of the three men mentioned
> earlier), in which case it functions purely to mark definiteness.
>
>
> T
>
> --
> Ðил-бÑл коÑÐ¾Ð»Ñ ÐºÐ¾Ð³Ð´Ð°-Ñо, пÑи нÑм блоÑ
а жила.
>
Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
3. my newest con-auxlang
Posted by: "Njenfalgar" [email protected]
Date: Sun Apr 28, 2013 6:53 pm ((PDT))
Hi all,
I have finished writing up a grammar overview of the language most widely
used in my con-universe. It can be found here:
http://njenfalgar.conlang.org/Pangalactic.pdf
In-world history: It is an artificial auxiliary language, used as a lingua
franca all over the universe for interspecies contact --- and sometimes
even for intraspecies contact if a species had no internationally used
language already before joining the Community. So, ignoring the rule
against auxlang advocacy for a moment, if anyone of you was planning a
career in the Adromeda galaxy, or even just planning a tourist trip to the
Sombrero galaxy, you should seriously consider learning this language. You
won't get far without it.
Jokes aside, when developing the language I have found Vietnamese to be a
great source of inspiration. Can't really say why, though.
My current signature (below) is a random sentence in the language, BTW.
Enjoy,
David
--
Yésináne gika asahukúka ha'u Kusikéla-Kísu yesahuwese witi nale lálu wíke
uhu tu tinitíhi lise tesahuwese. Lise yésináne, lina, ikéwiyéwa etinizáwa
búwubúwu niyi tutelíhi uhu yegeka.
http://njenfalgar.conlang.org/
Messages in this topic (1)
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4. another indexing sketch
Posted by: "neo gu" [email protected]
Date: Sun Apr 28, 2013 6:53 pm ((PDT))
Some of you may remember about a year ago, I posted on Apr20, an indexed
predicates sketch. Today I came up with a different indexing sketch, Apr28.
Apr28 isn't purely indexing; it combines that with some other features, such as
attributive clauses embedded between determiner and noun.
Nouns and pronouns are distinguished from verbs and quantity words. The noun
carries the index for the whole phrase; since the modifiers are embedded, they
don't need to mark the index of the head noun. Number is marked only once per
phrase.
Primary and secondary predicates aren't distinguished from each other; both
carry the indexes of their argument phrases, unless the arguments are
pronominal affixes. Coordinate clauses and adjuncts are distinguished only by
the introductory conjunction. Complement clauses are indexed by placing a
nominalizer carrying the index at the start of the clause.
Another thing is null indexes. If the argument phrase corresponding to the
suffixed argument immediately follows the verb, the index for both can be 0.
Likewise for prefixed arguments and preceding phrases. However, this prevents
the argument phrase from being shared with other verbs. Omitted arguments also
have null indexes.
DEF cat-i 1XP-put-i i-in-0 DEF house-0. "We put the cat in the house."
PN John-j DEF elephant-i j-want-0 NOM-0 j-see-i. "John wants to see the
elephant."
Messages in this topic (1)
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5.1. Vidal, a new constructed language like Volapük
Posted by: "Michael Everson" [email protected]
Date: Mon Apr 29, 2013 3:34 am ((PDT))
There's a Scientific American supplement on auction on eBay that apparently has
an article about "Vidal, a new constructed language like Volapük"
http://www.ebay.com/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=121100949289
Bidding starts at $9.99. He wants $19 to ship to Ireland so I won't be bidding.
But just in case any of you are interested...
Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
Messages in this topic (74)
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