There are 4 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. Re: Dictionary of Sound Changes -- Day 1
From: Herman Miller
1b. Re: Dictionary of Sound Changes -- Day 1
From: Paul Bennett
2a. the LCC5 relay is up
From: Alex Fink
2b. Re: the LCC5 relay is up
From: David Peterson
Messages
________________________________________________________________________
1a. Re: Dictionary of Sound Changes -- Day 1
Posted by: "Herman Miller" [email protected]
Date: Sun May 5, 2013 8:12 am ((PDT))
On 5/5/2013 6:06 AM, Paul Bennett wrote:
> I've started preliminary work on my Magnum Opus, or at least one of my
> Magnum Opuses. It's a dictionary of the sound changes in the principal
> Indo-European languages, which will hopefully be useful for those of you
> who are into that sort of thing. The draft listed below is basically what I
> could crank out in about an hour. There is (obviously) a great deal of work
> yet to be done. Questions, comments, suggestions?
>
> https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B21ee_I1WzbwZEQ1SExsLU9FaGs/edit?usp=sharing
>
> --
> Paul Bennett
Could be useful, especially with the reverse lookup section. Much of
what I do in trying to reconstruct the history of my languages is trying
to figure out the possible options for sounds in a proto-language when I
already know the sounds in the modern language.
The italic font you're using has some pretty bad display issues
depending on how much you zoom in or out. It looks like the hinting
wasn't set up properly, with some lines too thin and others too thick.
Could you try a different font?
The idea of a uniform phonemic notation is an interesting one. At some
point it requires making assumptions about the pronunciation of ancient
words. Well, basically any time before the invention of recording
technology, but more so the further back you go. But it would certainly
make things easier to follow for someone who isn't acquainted with all
the specialist notations for the different branches.
Obviously there will be issues with deciding which phoneme of one
language is the "same" as a phoneme of another language. English has the
phoneme /t/ with [t] and [tʰ] (both alveolar) as allophones, but Hindi
has /t̪/, /t̪ʰ/, /ʈ/, and /ʈʰ/ (dental and retroflex) as distinct phonemes.
Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
1b. Re: Dictionary of Sound Changes -- Day 1
Posted by: "Paul Bennett" [email protected]
Date: Mon May 6, 2013 2:16 am ((PDT))
The font display issues seem to be mostly with Google's PDF rendering
engine, which I've had quite serious problems with in the past.
The PDF renders fine (for me) in Adobe Acrobat (on Windows, and Android),
Gnome Document Viewer (on Linux), Amazon Kindle (on Android), and Libre
Office, which is what I've been using at this stage to type in the
boilerplate -- there will eventually be a database with a user-friendly (or
at least me-friendly) UI that exports via XML and XSLT to something ready
to just plop into the Libre Office text (or some other mechanism that
becomes PDF at the click of a mouse).
The font in question is SIL Gentium, which I've never had issues with under
any other circumstances, and which seems to cover all the characters I'll
be needing, as well as being easier on the eyes than (e.g.) Code2000 or
Bitstream (or Titus) Cyberbit, and easier on the psyche than Computer
Modern.
As far as a "uniform phonemic notation", it'll be IPA, pure and simple, and
make as few assumptions as possible, where possible. Where two different
languages have two different phonemes, I'll be using two different IPA
symbols (because that's a matter of Intergalactic Law ;-)
I will, however, be making the controversial step of assigning concrete
values to the PIE sounds, most controversially the laryngeals. I don't
think it matters too much what those values actually are, because they'll
be whisked away into vowels and fricatives and all that good stuff very
early on. I'm thinking /ʔ/, /ʕ/, /ʕʷ/ because they're fairly easy to grasp,
but I could go for whatever the current consensus is (e.g. /ħ/, /ʁ/, /ʁʷ/
or whatever else is fashionable), as long as they agree more or less with
my own working hypothesis that they had something to do with "three weird
noises, one at a slightly different POA, and one labialized").
Likewise, I'll be going for /p/, /pʰ/, /pˀ/ for the PIE stops series, with
footnotes and sidenotes and whatever all else absolutely chock-full of ifs,
ands, buts, and maybes (and other caveats).
I have also been encouraged to include more than just "the principal PIE
langauges". Since the text is designed for actual commercial publication in
something like 6x9 or A5 paper soft-cover (via one of the more reputable
self-publishing outfits, maybe lulu.com if they're still going and still
reputable), it's going to be impractical to stretch it beyond 300 to 400
pages, 500 at the absolute limit.
Since I'll be building an application and UI to make the process easy on
me, I have no problem with releasing "the principal Amerind languages",
"the principal Afro-Asiatic languages" or whatever else, and plausibly "the
World's major languages (by number of modern speakers)" and "the
most-interesting sound changes regardless of family", if anyone else wants
to contribute in exchange for co-authorship credits and a cut of any money
made. Have your people talk to my people ;-)
Thanks for the tips and encouragement!
--
Paul
On Sun, May 5, 2013 at 11:12 AM, Herman Miller <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 5/5/2013 6:06 AM, Paul Bennett wrote:
>
>> I've started preliminary work on my Magnum Opus, or at least one of my
>> Magnum Opuses. It's a dictionary of the sound changes in the principal
>> Indo-European languages, which will hopefully be useful for those of you
>> who are into that sort of thing. The draft listed below is basically what
>> I
>> could crank out in about an hour. There is (obviously) a great deal of
>> work
>> yet to be done. Questions, comments, suggestions?
>>
>> https://docs.google.com/file/**d/0B21ee_**I1WzbwZEQ1SExsLU9FaGs/edit?**
>> usp=sharing<https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B21ee_I1WzbwZEQ1SExsLU9FaGs/edit?usp=sharing>
>>
>> --
>> Paul Bennett
>>
>
> Could be useful, especially with the reverse lookup section. Much of what
> I do in trying to reconstruct the history of my languages is trying to
> figure out the possible options for sounds in a proto-language when I
> already know the sounds in the modern language.
>
> The italic font you're using has some pretty bad display issues depending
> on how much you zoom in or out. It looks like the hinting wasn't set up
> properly, with some lines too thin and others too thick. Could you try a
> different font?
>
> The idea of a uniform phonemic notation is an interesting one. At some
> point it requires making assumptions about the pronunciation of ancient
> words. Well, basically any time before the invention of recording
> technology, but more so the further back you go. But it would certainly
> make things easier to follow for someone who isn't acquainted with all the
> specialist notations for the different branches.
>
> Obviously there will be issues with deciding which phoneme of one language
> is the "same" as a phoneme of another language. English has the phoneme /t/
> with [t] and [tʰ] (both alveolar) as allophones, but Hindi has /t̪/, /t̪ʰ/,
> /ʈ/, and /ʈʰ/ (dental and retroflex) as distinct phonemes.
>
Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
2a. the LCC5 relay is up
Posted by: "Alex Fink" [email protected]
Date: Sun May 5, 2013 11:00 pm ((PDT))
http://conlang.org/language-creation-conference/lcc5/lcc5-relay/
It was UNLWS that was responsible for the greatest transmogrification
here. As I hear Tony told it (I sadly wasn't around for this part of
the recounting!), he managed to identify all our words, but ran out of
time to do anything with the syntax, so fit them together into a
vaguely coherent story, with the effect of "running the story through
a meat grinder". Ahh, beautiful chaos :)
Alex
Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
2b. Re: the LCC5 relay is up
Posted by: "David Peterson" [email protected]
Date: Sun May 5, 2013 11:19 pm ((PDT))
Thank you, Alex! I completely forgot to post this. It will eventually be linked
to in a much more ordinary fashion on the LCC5 page (i.e. off the main
navigation panel). Travel day ahead if me, though.
Sent from my iPhone
On May 6, 2013, at 1:00 AM, Alex Fink <[email protected]> wrote:
> http://conlang.org/language-creation-conference/lcc5/lcc5-relay/
>
> It was UNLWS that was responsible for the greatest transmogrification
> here. As I hear Tony told it (I sadly wasn't around for this part of
> the recounting!), he managed to identify all our words, but ran out of
> time to do anything with the syntax, so fit them together into a
> vaguely coherent story, with the effect of "running the story through
> a meat grinder". Ahh, beautiful chaos :)
>
> Alex
Messages in this topic (2)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/conlang/
<*> Your email settings:
Digest Email | Traditional
<*> To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/conlang/join
(Yahoo! ID required)
<*> To change settings via email:
[email protected]
[email protected]
<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]
<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
------------------------------------------------------------------------
