There are 15 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. Yet Another Simple Self-Segregating Morphology
From: Gary Shannon
1b. Re: Yet Another Simple Self-Segregating Morphology
From: MorphemeAddict
1c. Re: Yet Another Simple Self-Segregating Morphology
From: Gary Shannon
2a. (no subject)
From: Allison Swenson
2b. (no subject)
From: R A Brown
2c. (no subject)
From: George Corley
2d. (no subject)
From: James Kane
2e. Japanese Linear A (was: )
From: R A Brown
2f. (no subject)
From: Jyri Lehtinen
3a. Re: Translation: Christmas songs in May-- Completed !!
From: Herman Miller
3b. Re: Translation: Christmas songs in May-- Completed !!
From: Adam Walker
3c. Re: Translation: Christmas songs in May-- Completed !!
From: James Kane
4a. Re: "Ice age superlanguage" -- linguistics journalism at its finest
From: Roger Mills
5a. What has happened to the Conculture list?
From: Jörg Rhiemeier
5b. Re: What has happened to the Conculture list?
From: C. Brickner
Messages
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1a. Yet Another Simple Self-Segregating Morphology
Posted by: "Gary Shannon" [email protected]
Date: Tue May 7, 2013 2:47 pm ((PDT))
Syllables are CV where C may be a single consonant or a simple cluster, and
V is a pure vowel, never a diphthong or vowel cluster of any kind.
Roots are made up of some number of syllables, all of which share the same
vowel. Thus "midi" and "tolosko" are valid roots, but "madi" and "taluska"
are not.
When roots are joined, if they use different vowels then the roots are
simply joined: mo + kala = mokala; moko + la = mokola. All compounds can
then be decomposed in only one way.
If the vowels in the two roots are the same then some different vowel is
used to glue the two roots together. Thus: mo + koto = mo + a + koto =
moakoto; lama + da =lamaida (but la + mada = laimada). Compounds, again,
can only be decomposed in one way.
That's all there is to it. Comments?
--gary
Messages in this topic (3)
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1b. Re: Yet Another Simple Self-Segregating Morphology
Posted by: "MorphemeAddict" [email protected]
Date: Tue May 7, 2013 3:24 pm ((PDT))
What happens when more than one word occur together?
stevo
On Tue, May 7, 2013 at 5:47 PM, Gary Shannon <[email protected]> wrote:
> Syllables are CV where C may be a single consonant or a simple cluster, and
> V is a pure vowel, never a diphthong or vowel cluster of any kind.
>
> Roots are made up of some number of syllables, all of which share the same
> vowel. Thus "midi" and "tolosko" are valid roots, but "madi" and "taluska"
> are not.
>
> When roots are joined, if they use different vowels then the roots are
> simply joined: mo + kala = mokala; moko + la = mokola. All compounds can
> then be decomposed in only one way.
>
> If the vowels in the two roots are the same then some different vowel is
> used to glue the two roots together. Thus: mo + koto = mo + a + koto =
> moakoto; lama + da =lamaida (but la + mada = laimada). Compounds, again,
> can only be decomposed in one way.
>
> That's all there is to it. Comments?
>
> --gary
>
Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
1c. Re: Yet Another Simple Self-Segregating Morphology
Posted by: "Gary Shannon" [email protected]
Date: Tue May 7, 2013 4:54 pm ((PDT))
I guess maybe word boundaries don't matter so much in this language, ;-)
--gary
On Tue, May 7, 2013 at 3:23 PM, MorphemeAddict <[email protected]> wrote:
> What happens when more than one word occur together?
>
> stevo
>
>
> On Tue, May 7, 2013 at 5:47 PM, Gary Shannon <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > Syllables are CV where C may be a single consonant or a simple cluster,
> and
> > V is a pure vowel, never a diphthong or vowel cluster of any kind.
> >
> > Roots are made up of some number of syllables, all of which share the
> same
> > vowel. Thus "midi" and "tolosko" are valid roots, but "madi" and
> "taluska"
> > are not.
> >
> > When roots are joined, if they use different vowels then the roots are
> > simply joined: mo + kala = mokala; moko + la = mokola. All compounds can
> > then be decomposed in only one way.
> >
> > If the vowels in the two roots are the same then some different vowel is
> > used to glue the two roots together. Thus: mo + koto = mo + a + koto =
> > moakoto; lama + da =lamaida (but la + mada = laimada). Compounds, again,
> > can only be decomposed in one way.
> >
> > That's all there is to it. Comments?
> >
> > --gary
> >
>
Messages in this topic (3)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
2a. (no subject)
Posted by: "Allison Swenson" [email protected]
Date: Tue May 7, 2013 3:24 pm ((PDT))
I must confess to being tempted to drop in and leave something about Linear
A being Japanese, just for the fun of it...
--Allison Swenson
On Tue, May 7, 2013 at 3:40 PM, Cosman246 <[email protected]> wrote:
> Another one falls to the trap of Brithenig!
>
> -Yash Tulsyan (yasht, cosman246)
> http://cosman246.com
> "Once men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this
> would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to
> enslave them." --Dune
>
> "If voting changed anything, they'd make it illegal" -Emma Goldman
>
>
> On Tue, May 7, 2013 at 12:36 PM, <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > I especially liked this comment:
> >
> > "Welsh is actually a form of latin, left over from the time of the Roman
> > Empire."
> >
> > --Ph. D.
> >
> > "Krista D. Casada" <[email protected]> wrote:
> > >
> >
> >> Or laughing out loud. At work. In the library.
> >> Krista
> >> ______________________________**__________
> >> Adam Walker [[email protected]] wrote:
> >>
> >> Just don't read the comments unless you want to start bleeding from your
> >> ears.
> >> Adam
> >>
> >> Eric Christopherson <[email protected]>wrote:
> >>
> >> > An evolutionary biologist, Mark Pagel, has done some analysis to
> arrive
> >> at
> >> > 23 words dating back 15,000 years ago to a "superlanguage" which
> >> apparently
> >> > gave rise to IE as well as Uralic, Altaic, etc. While I was pleased
> >> Merrit
> >> > Ruhlen's name didn't show up in the article, I'm skeptical about
> >> > non-linguists making this sort of claim; and the article itself is
> full
> >> of
> >> > ambiguities (e.g. whether this superlanguage was a regular old
> >> language, or
> >> > some sort of ancient auxlang; plus, check out the extent of IE on the
> >> > language family map!) and seems to lack awareness that this same sort
> of
> >> > thing has been done many times. Still, his actual work might be fairly
> >> > interesting. >
> >> > http://www.dailymail.co.uk/**sciencetech/article-2320754/**
> >> The-ice-age-superlanguage-**Europeans-spoke-15-000-years-**ago.html<
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2320754/The-ice-age-superlanguage-Europeans-spoke-15-000-years-ago.html
> >
> >>
> >
>
Messages in this topic (19)
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2b. (no subject)
Posted by: "R A Brown" [email protected]
Date: Tue May 7, 2013 11:42 pm ((PDT))
On 07/05/2013 23:24, Allison Swenson wrote:
> I must confess to being tempted to drop in and leave
> something about Linear A being Japanese, just for the fun
> of it...
Which is precisely what Gretchen Leonhart claims:
http://kanashi.net/2011/12/24/the-decipherment-of-linear-a-ht-13/
I did try to reason with her once, but 'twas futile.
[snip]
>> On Tue, May 7, 2013 at 12:36 PM,
>> Ph.D. wrote:
>>
>>> I especially liked this comment:
>>>
>>> "Welsh is actually a form of latin, left over from
>>> the time of the Roman Empire."
:-D
--
Ray
==================================
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
"language
began with half-musical unanalysed expressions
for individual beings and events."
[Otto Jespersen, Progress in Language, 1895]
Messages in this topic (19)
________________________________________________________________________
2c. (no subject)
Posted by: "George Corley" [email protected]
Date: Wed May 8, 2013 12:48 am ((PDT))
On Wed, May 8, 2013 at 1:42 AM, R A Brown <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 07/05/2013 23:24, Allison Swenson wrote:
>
>> I must confess to being tempted to drop in and leave
>> something about Linear A being Japanese, just for the fun
>> of it...
>>
>
> Which is precisely what Gretchen Leonhart claims:
> http://kanashi.net/2011/12/24/**the-decipherment-of-linear-a-**ht-13/<http://kanashi.net/2011/12/24/the-decipherment-of-linear-a-ht-13/>
>
> I did try to reason with her once, but 'twas futile.
>
Does this person not realize that Linear A is well over three-thousand
years old? Perhaps she is submitting that Japanese time-travellers wrote
the script.
Such crazies there are around these parts.
Messages in this topic (19)
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2d. (no subject)
Posted by: "James Kane" [email protected]
Date: Wed May 8, 2013 1:32 am ((PDT))
Her opening translating is that 3000 year old kuudetaa is actually the modern
Japanese transliteration of a modern French word... Not the best start.
Sent from my iPhone
On 8/05/2013, at 7:48 PM, George Corley <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Wed, May 8, 2013 at 1:42 AM, R A Brown <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> On 07/05/2013 23:24, Allison Swenson wrote:
>>
>>> I must confess to being tempted to drop in and leave
>>> something about Linear A being Japanese, just for the fun
>>> of it...
>>
>> Which is precisely what Gretchen Leonhart claims:
>> http://kanashi.net/2011/12/24/**the-decipherment-of-linear-a-**ht-13/<http://kanashi.net/2011/12/24/the-decipherment-of-linear-a-ht-13/>
>>
>> I did try to reason with her once, but 'twas futile.
>
> Does this person not realize that Linear A is well over three-thousand
> years old? Perhaps she is submitting that Japanese time-travellers wrote
> the script.
>
> Such crazies there are around these parts.
Messages in this topic (19)
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2e. Japanese Linear A (was: )
Posted by: "R A Brown" [email protected]
Date: Wed May 8, 2013 3:13 am ((PDT))
On 08/05/2013 08:48, George Corley wrote:
> On Wed, May 8, 2013 at 1:42 AM, R A Brown wrote:
>
>> On 07/05/2013 23:24, Allison Swenson wrote:
>>
>>> I must confess to being tempted to drop in and leave
>>> something about Linear A being Japanese, just for the
>>> fun of it...
>>
>> Which is precisely what Gretchen Leonhart claims:
>> http://kanashi.net/2011/12/24/**the-decipherment-of-linear-a-**ht-13/<http://kanashi.net/2011/12/24/the-decipherment-of-linear-a-ht-13/>
>>
>> I did try to reason with her once, but 'twas futile.
>
> Does this person not realize that Linear A is well over
> three-thousand years old?
This has been pointed out to her.
> Perhaps she is submitting that Japanese time-travellers
> wrote the script.
No - she is just under the delusion that Japanese is very
conservative and hasn't changed much over the last 3000 years.
=====================================================
On 08/05/2013 09:32, James Kane wrote:
> Her opening translating is that 3000 year old kuudetaa
> is actually the modern Japanese transliteration of a
> modern French word... Not the best start.
Alas, all too typical of this young lady. She seems to
wallow in anachronisms.
--
Ray
==================================
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
"language
began with half-musical unanalysed expressions
for individual beings and events."
[Otto Jespersen, Progress in Language, 1895]
Messages in this topic (19)
________________________________________________________________________
2f. (no subject)
Posted by: "Jyri Lehtinen" [email protected]
Date: Wed May 8, 2013 5:12 am ((PDT))
People unfortunately do this a lot. There really is a point in this if you
are willing to throw aside all principles of good scientific conduct: there
are much more languages to choose from for your crackpot theory if you
allow yourself to compare languages with many millennia between the times
they were spoken.
I once read a page where a guy argued in favour of genetic relation between
Indo European and Uralic by comparing very ancient forms of IE (might have
been even PIE) and modern Tundra Nenets. So what ever timing you are using
for the languages, there have been at least 5000 years between these two.
Another common feature in these comparisons is disregarding some very
clearly attested data. This same guy argued that certain traditional
etymologies that didn't suit his argument couldn't be true because
inserting an initial velar nasal onto originally vowel initial words is
typologically unexpected. This statement missed the simple fact that this
exact change is historically attested (see words like "ngaeroport"), but at
least his argument was less unusual than the actual reality.
So even when people choose to argue in favour of theories like Indo-Uralic,
which you can support and still be a respected mainstream linguist, they
can do it in a very crackpotty way. This can also happen by accident if you
dive into a field new to you without knowing all of its basic results.
-Jyri
2013/5/8 George Corley <[email protected]>
> On Wed, May 8, 2013 at 1:42 AM, R A Brown <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> > On 07/05/2013 23:24, Allison Swenson wrote:
> >
> >> I must confess to being tempted to drop in and leave
> >> something about Linear A being Japanese, just for the fun
> >> of it...
> >>
> >
> > Which is precisely what Gretchen Leonhart claims:
> > http://kanashi.net/2011/12/24/**the-decipherment-of-linear-a-**ht-13/<
> http://kanashi.net/2011/12/24/the-decipherment-of-linear-a-ht-13/>
> >
> > I did try to reason with her once, but 'twas futile.
> >
>
> Does this person not realize that Linear A is well over three-thousand
> years old? Perhaps she is submitting that Japanese time-travellers wrote
> the script.
>
> Such crazies there are around these parts.
>
Messages in this topic (19)
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3a. Re: Translation: Christmas songs in May-- Completed !!
Posted by: "Herman Miller" [email protected]
Date: Tue May 7, 2013 4:18 pm ((PDT))
On 5/6/2013 9:28 AM, Roger Mills wrote:
> --- On Sat, 5/4/13, Herman Miller<[email protected]> wrote:
> On 5/4/2013 3:32 PM, Roger Mills wrote:
>> A bit of whimsy. Don't know why this was going thru my head this morning:
>> Gwr.
>>
>> lu-H doq-L o-H trang-M how-F leN-M dr-L
>> ki-L ye-M hing-hing-M how-F
>>
>> Lu-do? that red-nose (k.o. animal)
>> to him very-shiny nose...
>
> Nice work getting it all to fit the melody. Let's see how far I can get in
> Jarda.
> ================================================
>
> The easy part was that the original has lots of monosyllables, or 2-syl that
> can easily be reduced to mono forms (compounds or reduplications....)
>
> Since the Gwr were, anciently, aggressively into things Octal, I suppose
> their music used an 8-tone scale (is that like the ancient Greek modes? no
> sharps or flats??). If you have time or inclination, Herman, it might be
> amusing to hear the melody recast into that sort of thing.....???
> =============================================
Well, I've got a few different versions, starting with the porcupine scale.
https://sites.google.com/site/teamouse/ludoq-porcupine.mp3?attredirects=0
As far as the melody goes, the most obvious difference is that the
leading tone (what would be G in the regular diatonic key of A-flat) is
flat (more like a G-flat than a G). It's actually in the key of H. There
are equal-sized steps from A-B, B-C, C-D, D-E, E-F, F-G, and G-H, and a
smaller step from H-A. The harmony has quite a few changes, most of
which are related to the different harmonic structure of the porcupine
scale.
The next version is an 8-note equal scale with narrowed octaves, a kind
of optimized scale called "8dino" with equal steps of 148.13 cents each.
Not a very pleasant tuning, but there it is for comparison.
https://sites.google.com/site/teamouse/ludoq-8dino.mp3?attredirects=0
Then there's the diminished scale. It sounds like Danny Elfman got his
hands on it.
https://sites.google.com/site/teamouse/ludoq-diminished.mp3?attredirects=0
A couple of other scales that might be options: the harmonic series from
8 to 15, or a subharmonic scale (like a mirror image of the harmonic
series). I'd need to rewrite the whole thing to sound good in one of
those scales, but I can see those as being reasonable options for an
8-note scale. The harmonic series comes up naturally when playing horns,
and the subharmonic series from equally-spaced frets on a stringed
instrument.
> ÅudoÅ, tis-kjul sÅl-vaz-ni,
> Rudolph, ice-deer fire-nose-with
> (Jarda does technically have a word for "red", but it dates from before I
> decided that Jarda was a Sangari language, and Sangari don't see red as a
> color distinct from yellow. Besides, I like the idea of an ice deer with a
> fire nose.)
>
> ni-an vÅ vaz Åim-ê Åá¹a.
> have-PAST.IMPF he nose shine-ACT.PART very
>
> It should really be "nian vÅra (ergative) vaz Åimê Åá¹a", but that
> doesn't fit. The whole sentence would normally go "Nian ÅudoÅá¹a,
> tiskjulá¹a sÅlvazni, vaz Åimê Åá¹a".
>
> au sin nês-ki lô-á¹a vÅ
> and if see-SUBJ you-ERG it
>
> têz-ki lô-á¹a pa Åim vÅ
> say-SUBJ you-ERG that glow it
>
> Yes, unfortunately the word for "shine" and "glow" is the same in Jarda.
>
> kêb-an sjul tis-kjul-Åa klêd
> laugh-PAST.IMPF all ice-deer-ERG other
>
> It should technically be "kêban sjulnên" (with a classifier).
>
> au nÅ-vôn-an dü-á¹a vÅ
> and dis-honor-PAST.IMPF they-ERG him
>
> va-tên-an RudoÅ bá¹aá¹-vam
> not-allow-PAST.IMPF Rudolph luck-less
>
> zur büz á¹ix plin tis-kjul-i
> associate ever for game ice-deer-GEN
I might as well try to finish it.
ķê ju-Äôm Ärep-ni Åôm-vo
then one-CLASS fog-with night-LOC
têz-en Senta-á¹a
say-PAST.PF Santa-ERG
"RudoÅ, Åim Åá¹a lô-i vaz!
Rudolph, shine much you-GEN nose
jêð zÅ wöm lô-á¹a tis-xêb"
suggest that guide you-ERG ice-car
tôs-en sjul-nên tis-kjul-á¹a
love-PAST.PF all-CLASS ice-deer-ERG
zê sjês-an maÄ£is-ni sjul
while shout-PAST.IMPF delight-with
"ÅudoÅ, tis-kjul sÅl-vaz-ni,
Rudolph, ice-deer fire-nose-with
Åêá¹-ü lô-á¹a tÅl Åtên-a"
become-FUT.PF you-ERG part history-GEN
A Jarda speaker could do better, of course. My vocabulary is pretty
limited, and song lyrics are hard enough to translate into your native
language.
Messages in this topic (12)
________________________________________________________________________
3b. Re: Translation: Christmas songs in May-- Completed !!
Posted by: "Adam Walker" [email protected]
Date: Tue May 7, 2013 5:29 pm ((PDT))
I really like the porcupine and Elfman options, but the middle one has a
sort of Java-invaded-by-Okinawa charm.
Adam
On Tue, May 7, 2013 at 6:18 PM, Herman Miller <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 5/6/2013 9:28 AM, Roger Mills wrote:
>
>> --- On Sat, 5/4/13, Herman Miller<[email protected]> wrote:
>> On 5/4/2013 3:32 PM, Roger Mills wrote:
>>
>>> A bit of whimsy. Don't know why this was going thru my head this morning:
>>> Gwr.
>>>
>>> lu-H doq-L o-H trang-M how-F leN-M dr-L
>>> ki-L ye-M hing-hing-M how-F
>>>
>>> Lu-do? that red-nose (k.o. animal)
>>> to him very-shiny nose...
>>>
>>
>> Nice work getting it all to fit the melody. Let's see how far I can get
>> in Jarda.
>> ==============================**==================
>>
>> The easy part was that the original has lots of monosyllables, or 2-syl
>> that can easily be reduced to mono forms (compounds or reduplications....)
>>
>> Since the Gwr were, anciently, aggressively into things Octal, I suppose
>> their music used an 8-tone scale (is that like the ancient Greek modes? no
>> sharps or flats??). If you have time or inclination, Herman, it might be
>> amusing to hear the melody recast into that sort of thing.....???
>> ==============================**===============
>>
>
> Well, I've got a few different versions, starting with the porcupine scale.
>
> https://sites.google.com/site/**teamouse/ludoq-porcupine.mp3?**
> attredirects=0<https://sites.google.com/site/teamouse/ludoq-porcupine.mp3?attredirects=0>
>
> As far as the melody goes, the most obvious difference is that the leading
> tone (what would be G in the regular diatonic key of A-flat) is flat (more
> like a G-flat than a G). It's actually in the key of H. There are
> equal-sized steps from A-B, B-C, C-D, D-E, E-F, F-G, and G-H, and a smaller
> step from H-A. The harmony has quite a few changes, most of which are
> related to the different harmonic structure of the porcupine scale.
>
> The next version is an 8-note equal scale with narrowed octaves, a kind of
> optimized scale called "8dino" with equal steps of 148.13 cents each. Not a
> very pleasant tuning, but there it is for comparison.
>
> https://sites.google.com/site/**teamouse/ludoq-8dino.mp3?**attredirects=0<https://sites.google.com/site/teamouse/ludoq-8dino.mp3?attredirects=0>
>
> Then there's the diminished scale. It sounds like Danny Elfman got his
> hands on it.
>
> https://sites.google.com/site/**teamouse/ludoq-diminished.mp3?**
> attredirects=0<https://sites.google.com/site/teamouse/ludoq-diminished.mp3?attredirects=0>
>
> A couple of other scales that might be options: the harmonic series from 8
> to 15, or a subharmonic scale (like a mirror image of the harmonic series).
> I'd need to rewrite the whole thing to sound good in one of those scales,
> but I can see those as being reasonable options for an 8-note scale. The
> harmonic series comes up naturally when playing horns, and the subharmonic
> series from equally-spaced frets on a stringed instrument.
>
>
> ÅudoÅ, tis-kjul sÅl-vaz-ni,
>> Rudolph, ice-deer fire-nose-with
>> (Jarda does technically have a word for "red", but it dates from before I
>> decided that Jarda was a Sangari language, and Sangari don't see red as a
>> color distinct from yellow. Besides, I like the idea of an ice deer with a
>> fire nose.)
>>
>> ni-an vÅ vaz Åim-ê Åá¹a.
>> have-PAST.IMPF he nose shine-ACT.PART very
>>
>> It should really be "nian vÅra (ergative) vaz Åimê Åá¹a", but that
>> doesn't
>> fit. The whole sentence would normally go "Nian ÅudoÅá¹a, tiskjulá¹a
>> sÅlvazni, vaz Åimê Åá¹a".
>>
>> au sin nês-ki lô-á¹a vÅ
>> and if see-SUBJ you-ERG it
>>
>> têz-ki lô-á¹a pa Åim vÅ
>> say-SUBJ you-ERG that glow it
>>
>> Yes, unfortunately the word for "shine" and "glow" is the same in Jarda.
>>
>> kêb-an sjul tis-kjul-Åa klêd
>> laugh-PAST.IMPF all ice-deer-ERG other
>>
>> It should technically be "kêban sjulnên" (with a classifier).
>>
>> au nÅ-vôn-an dü-á¹a vÅ
>> and dis-honor-PAST.IMPF they-ERG him
>>
>> va-tên-an RudoÅ bá¹aá¹-vam
>> not-allow-PAST.IMPF Rudolph luck-less
>>
>> zur büz á¹ix plin tis-kjul-i
>> associate ever for game ice-deer-GEN
>>
>
> I might as well try to finish it.
>
> ķê ju-Äôm Ärep-ni Åôm-vo
> then one-CLASS fog-with night-LOC
>
> têz-en Senta-á¹a
> say-PAST.PF Santa-ERG
>
> "RudoÅ, Åim Åá¹a lô-i vaz!
> Rudolph, shine much you-GEN nose
>
> jêð zÅ wöm lô-á¹a tis-xêb"
> suggest that guide you-ERG ice-car
>
> tôs-en sjul-nên tis-kjul-á¹a
> love-PAST.PF all-CLASS ice-deer-ERG
>
> zê sjês-an maÄ£is-ni sjul
> while shout-PAST.IMPF delight-with
>
>
> "ÅudoÅ, tis-kjul sÅl-vaz-ni,
> Rudolph, ice-deer fire-nose-with
>
> Åêá¹-ü lô-á¹a tÅl Åtên-a"
> become-FUT.PF you-ERG part history-GEN
>
> A Jarda speaker could do better, of course. My vocabulary is pretty
> limited, and song lyrics are hard enough to translate into your native
> language.
>
Messages in this topic (12)
________________________________________________________________________
3c. Re: Translation: Christmas songs in May-- Completed !!
Posted by: "James Kane" [email protected]
Date: Tue May 7, 2013 9:09 pm ((PDT))
Wow this is very well done! I especially like the porcupine scale one! What
programme do you use to make this?
James
On 8/05/2013, at 11:18 AM, Herman Miller <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 5/6/2013 9:28 AM, Roger Mills wrote:
>> --- On Sat, 5/4/13, Herman Miller<[email protected]> wrote:
>> On 5/4/2013 3:32 PM, Roger Mills wrote:
>>> A bit of whimsy. Don't know why this was going thru my head this morning:
>>> Gwr.
>>>
>>> lu-H doq-L o-H trang-M how-F leN-M dr-L
>>> ki-L ye-M hing-hing-M how-F
>>>
>>> Lu-do? that red-nose (k.o. animal)
>>> to him very-shiny nose...
>>
>> Nice work getting it all to fit the melody. Let's see how far I can get in
>> Jarda.
>> ================================================
>>
>> The easy part was that the original has lots of monosyllables, or 2-syl that
>> can easily be reduced to mono forms (compounds or reduplications....)
>>
>> Since the Gwr were, anciently, aggressively into things Octal, I suppose
>> their music used an 8-tone scale (is that like the ancient Greek modes? no
>> sharps or flats??). If you have time or inclination, Herman, it might be
>> amusing to hear the melody recast into that sort of thing.....???
>> =============================================
>
> Well, I've got a few different versions, starting with the porcupine scale.
>
> https://sites.google.com/site/teamouse/ludoq-porcupine.mp3?attredirects=0
>
> As far as the melody goes, the most obvious difference is that the leading
> tone (what would be G in the regular diatonic key of A-flat) is flat (more
> like a G-flat than a G). It's actually in the key of H. There are equal-sized
> steps from A-B, B-C, C-D, D-E, E-F, F-G, and G-H, and a smaller step from
> H-A. The harmony has quite a few changes, most of which are related to the
> different harmonic structure of the porcupine scale.
>
> The next version is an 8-note equal scale with narrowed octaves, a kind of
> optimized scale called "8dino" with equal steps of 148.13 cents each. Not a
> very pleasant tuning, but there it is for comparison.
>
> https://sites.google.com/site/teamouse/ludoq-8dino.mp3?attredirects=0
>
> Then there's the diminished scale. It sounds like Danny Elfman got his hands
> on it.
>
> https://sites.google.com/site/teamouse/ludoq-diminished.mp3?attredirects=0
>
> A couple of other scales that might be options: the harmonic series from 8 to
> 15, or a subharmonic scale (like a mirror image of the harmonic series). I'd
> need to rewrite the whole thing to sound good in one of those scales, but I
> can see those as being reasonable options for an 8-note scale. The harmonic
> series comes up naturally when playing horns, and the subharmonic series from
> equally-spaced frets on a stringed instrument.
>
>> ÅudoÅ, tis-kjul sÅl-vaz-ni,
>> Rudolph, ice-deer fire-nose-with
>> (Jarda does technically have a word for "red", but it dates from before I
>> decided that Jarda was a Sangari language, and Sangari don't see red as a
>> color distinct from yellow. Besides, I like the idea of an ice deer with a
>> fire nose.)
>>
>> ni-an vÅ vaz Åim-ê Åá¹a.
>> have-PAST.IMPF he nose shine-ACT.PART very
>>
>> It should really be "nian vÅra (ergative) vaz Åimê Åá¹a", but that
>> doesn't fit. The whole sentence would normally go "Nian ÅudoÅá¹a,
>> tiskjulá¹a sÅlvazni, vaz Åimê Åá¹a".
>>
>> au sin nês-ki lô-á¹a vÅ
>> and if see-SUBJ you-ERG it
>>
>> têz-ki lô-á¹a pa Åim vÅ
>> say-SUBJ you-ERG that glow it
>>
>> Yes, unfortunately the word for "shine" and "glow" is the same in Jarda.
>>
>> kêb-an sjul tis-kjul-Åa klêd
>> laugh-PAST.IMPF all ice-deer-ERG other
>>
>> It should technically be "kêban sjulnên" (with a classifier).
>>
>> au nÅ-vôn-an dü-á¹a vÅ
>> and dis-honor-PAST.IMPF they-ERG him
>>
>> va-tên-an RudoÅ bá¹aá¹-vam
>> not-allow-PAST.IMPF Rudolph luck-less
>>
>> zur büz á¹ix plin tis-kjul-i
>> associate ever for game ice-deer-GEN
>
> I might as well try to finish it.
>
> ķê ju-Äôm Ärep-ni Åôm-vo
> then one-CLASS fog-with night-LOC
>
> têz-en Senta-á¹a
> say-PAST.PF Santa-ERG
>
> "RudoÅ, Åim Åá¹a lô-i vaz!
> Rudolph, shine much you-GEN nose
>
> jêð zÅ wöm lô-á¹a tis-xêb"
> suggest that guide you-ERG ice-car
>
> tôs-en sjul-nên tis-kjul-á¹a
> love-PAST.PF all-CLASS ice-deer-ERG
>
> zê sjês-an maÄ£is-ni sjul
> while shout-PAST.IMPF delight-with
>
> "ÅudoÅ, tis-kjul sÅl-vaz-ni,
> Rudolph, ice-deer fire-nose-with
>
> Åêá¹-ü lô-á¹a tÅl Åtên-a"
> become-FUT.PF you-ERG part history-GEN
>
> A Jarda speaker could do better, of course. My vocabulary is pretty limited,
> and song lyrics are hard enough to translate into your native language.
Messages in this topic (12)
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________________________________________________________________________
4a. Re: "Ice age superlanguage" -- linguistics journalism at its finest
Posted by: "Roger Mills" [email protected]
Date: Tue May 7, 2013 7:51 pm ((PDT))
This seems to be a link to the actual article (or at least a digest of it)
found in The Guardian:
www.pnas.org/cgi/content/short/1218726110
I have not yet read it.......but I see the very first line mentions Trombetti.
OMG. He was laughed off the stage at least a century ago. Now to read on.....
The Guardian article is at
http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2013/may/06/european-asian-language-tongue-superfamily
--- On Tue, 5/7/13, Eric Christopherson <[email protected]> wrote:
From: Eric Christopherson <[email protected]>
Subject: "Ice age superlanguage" -- linguistics journalism at its finest
To: [email protected]
Date: Tuesday, May 7, 2013, 12:54 PM
An evolutionary biologist, Mark Pagel, has done some analysis to arrive at 23
words dating back 15,000 years ago to a "superlanguage" which apparently gave
rise to IE as well as Uralic, Altaic, etc. While I was pleased Merrit Ruhlen's
name didn't show up in the article, I'm skeptical about non-linguists making
this sort of claim; and the article itself is full of ambiguities (e.g. whether
this superlanguage was a regular old language, or some sort of ancient auxlang;
plus, check out the extent of IE on the language family map!) and seems to lack
awareness that this same sort of thing has been done many times. Still, his
actual work might be fairly interesting.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2320754/The-ice-age-superlanguage-Europeans-spoke-15-000-years-ago.html
Messages in this topic (19)
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5a. What has happened to the Conculture list?
Posted by: "Jörg Rhiemeier" [email protected]
Date: Wed May 8, 2013 4:19 am ((PDT))
Hallo conlangers!
Does anybody of you know what is wrong with the Conculture mailing
list? I attempted to subscribe yesterday but with no result, and
according to the archive, nothing has appeared on it since Sunday.
Is the list dead?
--
... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
http://www.joerg-rhiemeier.de/Conlang/index.html
"Bêsel asa Éam, a Éam atha cvanthal a cvanth atha Éamal." - SiM 1:1
Messages in this topic (2)
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5b. Re: What has happened to the Conculture list?
Posted by: "C. Brickner" [email protected]
Date: Wed May 8, 2013 7:12 am ((PDT))
Does anybody of you know what is wrong with the Conculture mailing
list? I attempted to subscribe yesterday but with no result, and
according to the archive, nothing has appeared on it since Sunday.
Is the list dead?
--
... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
http://www.joerg-rhiemeier.de/Conlang/index.html
"Bêsel asa Éam, a Éam atha cvanthal a cvanth atha Éamal." - SiM 1:1
=========================
Pretty much! I recently abdicated my participation in IB as nothing has
happened in months. I think itâs run its course. Once a domain is
established and described thereâs not much else to do. After describing an
election, e.g., who wants to wait four real years before describing the next
election? I would have continued my participation, but I have no skill in
making maps, flags, etc. I donât feel right in imposing on others because
Iâm quite sure they have their own real lives with which to contend.
The rest of the Conculture list is pretty much taken up by Nicole and her
endless misunderstandings, inconsistencies, and rewrites. I once remarked
that, if she ever does write that novel, she should include the names of the
rest of us as co-authors.
Charlie
Messages in this topic (2)
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