There are 15 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. Re: THEORY: How to be beautiful?
From: Herman Miller
1b. Re: THEORY: How to be beautiful?
From: Herman Miller
1c. Re: THEORY: How to be beautiful?
From: Douglas Koller
1d. Re: THEORY: How to be beautiful?
From: Douglas Koller
1e. Re: THEORY: How to be beautiful?
From: Sam Stutter
1f. Re: THEORY: How to be beautiful?
From: Roman Rausch
2a. Re: Ot: Ihilda and the Mescratchious
From: Roger Mills
2b. Re: Ot: Ihilda and the Mescratchious
From: Daniel Bowman
2c. Re: Ot: Ihilda and the Mescratchious
From: Herman Miller
2d. Re: Ot: Ihilda and the Mescratchious
From: Amanda Babcock Furrow
2e. Re: Ot: Ihilda and the Mescratchious
From: Douglas Koller
3a. Re: Is this a good place to present Ehenív?
From: Herman Miller
4a. Chamomile, was:Re: Is this a good place to present Ehenív?
From: Adam Walker
4b. Re: Chamomile, was: Re: Is this a good place to present Ehenív?
From: Douglas Koller
5a. Re: Dieing Languages
From: Padraic Brown
Messages
________________________________________________________________________
1a. Re: THEORY: How to be beautiful?
Posted by: "Herman Miller" hmil...@prismnet.com
Date: Tue May 28, 2013 7:16 pm ((PDT))
On 5/28/2013 7:11 AM, Leonardo Castro wrote:
> What makes a language be considered beautiful?
>
> Why is Italian (and sometimes French) considered the most beautiful
> language by so many people?
>
> Até mais!
>
> Leonardo
Linguistic beauty is in the ear of the beholder. For one thing, Italian
has clear, pure vowels, and these are pretty close to the IPA cardinal
vowels (so they're well differentiated and easy to recognize). It has
few really uncommon consonants, and the ones it does have are not harsh
ones.
I don't get why French is considered so beautiful. To my ears,
Portuguese takes everything that sounds nice about French and does it
better. But you know what they say, "chacun à son goût".
Sounds that constrict the throat, like the Arabic pharyngealized sounds,
some of the Vietnamese tones, or the French uvular trill, tend to sound
harsh to me, and mar the beauty of a language. But one of my favorite
sounds is the very harsh-sounding lateral fricative (as in Welsh). I'm
not sure exactly what I find so appealing in that sound. And the harsh
sounds are a huge part of the appeal of Klingon. It just sounds like the
kind of language a Klingon would use.
I think Tolkien's Elvish languages seem to be consciously designed to be
beautiful, as much as Black Speech is intended to be ugly. I don't find
Black Speech particularly ugly, but I do appreciate the beauty of Quenya
and Sindarin.
I don't think of English as being a particularly beautiful language
because of its weird vowels and awkward consonant clusters. But Polish
can pull off some really tough clusters, and still sounds nice to my ears.
I think of Finnish as one of the more beautiful languages, but it could
be because most of the Finnish I've heard is sung by Värttinä. Finnish
has a lot in common with Quenya and Italian: the clear vowels, frequent
use of sounds like /l/ /n/ /r/, homorganic nasal + stop clusters, and
double consonants.
Messages in this topic (23)
________________________________________________________________________
1b. Re: THEORY: How to be beautiful?
Posted by: "Herman Miller" hmil...@prismnet.com
Date: Tue May 28, 2013 7:46 pm ((PDT))
On 5/28/2013 10:16 AM, C. Brickner wrote:
> Certainly, beauty is in the eye of the beholder or, in this case, the ear of
> the hearer. Perhaps French and Italian are considered beautiful because of
> the prominence of vowels.
>
> I find the following (of the languages with which I am familiar) beautiful,
> some in special circumstances:
> 1. European Portuguese.
> 2. Modern Greek.
> 3. German sung by a boys' choir.
> 4. Japanese spoken by a woman.
> 5. Swahili.
> 6. Turkish (front rounded vowels).
> 7. Hawaiian, Maori, Samoan, etc. Talk about a prominence of vowels!
I've not heard much European Portuguese, mostly Brazilian, and then
mostly in music. Any language sounds better when sung.
Modern Greek does have a nice sound to it, and I think it might have to
do with all the smooth fricatives (especially the /θ/ and /ð/, which are
also prominent in Sindarin and Welsh).
I love listening to the Japanese soundtracks in DVDs and games when
available. The language is so rhythmic, full of short syllables at a
rapid fire tempo. It has a lot of character.
Swahili has always seemed beautiful when I've read it in books, but I
haven't really heard it spoken.
Messages in this topic (23)
________________________________________________________________________
1c. Re: THEORY: How to be beautiful?
Posted by: "Douglas Koller" douglaskol...@hotmail.com
Date: Tue May 28, 2013 10:49 pm ((PDT))
> Date: Tue, 28 May 2013 09:50:07 -0700
> From: hst...@quickfur.ath.cx
> Subject: Re: THEORY: How to be beautiful?
> To: conl...@listserv.brown.edu
> On Tue, May 28, 2013 at 08:11:41AM -0300, Leonardo Castro wrote:
> > What makes a language be considered beautiful?
> And despite being a native speaker of Mandarin and Hokkien, I find
> neither of them very appealing at all. I find Mandarin rather
> pretentious, and Hokkien positively vulgar.
Cantonese always gets the bad rap (the "airline peanuts" of Chinese dialects
("Whaaat is uuup with that?!")), but for my money, Min sounds like people are
constantly, pardon my French, bitching each other out. Maybe it's the falling
quality of the "shang" tones. Maybe it's the nasals which, as I've heard them,
are not the mellifluous French variety, if you like that sort of thing, but
*really* nasal.
> And on that note, I
> disagree that vowels are beautiful and fricatives are ugly. I don't like
> most vowels, but maybe excepting [y] (the
> rounded high front vowel -- a beautiful sound), but fricatives and
> consonant clusters make me all warm and snuggly inside.
> My perceptions are likely very contrary to popular opinion, but I'm
> totally fine with that. :)
Luuuuuuuke, come over to the dark side, Géarthnuns awaits thee, Luuuuuuke... :)
Kou
Messages in this topic (23)
________________________________________________________________________
1d. Re: THEORY: How to be beautiful?
Posted by: "Douglas Koller" douglaskol...@hotmail.com
Date: Tue May 28, 2013 11:04 pm ((PDT))
> Date: Tue, 28 May 2013 14:46:05 +0100
> From: samjj...@gmail.com
> Subject: Re: THEORY: How to be beautiful?
> To: conl...@listserv.brown.edu
> I wouldn't even say stereotypical London accent - I think the majority of
> Americans think of two British accents "posh British" (almost Received
> Pronunciation) and "cockney", plus maybe "Scottish" if they get their
> geography right.
> With Britain being associated with the established and urbane through the
> C19th, RP had good reason to be though of as conferring respectability and
> intelligence. The association would have died if it had not been for the
> continued influence of British pop-culture and the UK "brand" that we
> literally "sell" abroad :)
For British posh, please keep sending us the Helen Mirren, Colin Firth, Hugh
Grant-y types. But British pop-culture? Adele may croon divinely (again, if you
like that sort of thing), but in interview she sounds like any ol' slag you'd
pick up at last call. And microphones stuck in the faces of Londoners for
average Reginald-on-the-Street reactions to current events hardly ring RP or
posh. Nor charming chimney sweeps, either.
Kou
Messages in this topic (23)
________________________________________________________________________
1e. Re: THEORY: How to be beautiful?
Posted by: "Sam Stutter" samjj...@gmail.com
Date: Wed May 29, 2013 2:13 am ((PDT))
Ah, we can't control the vagaries of the press and their bizarre obsession with
chimney sweeps and horrible people from Essex. If we had our way you'd think
the country was full of James Bond and Lancashire steel workers. Even James
Callis (of Battlestar Galactica) tried to do his bit for the cause, eschewing a
directional demand to do "a Michael Caine" in order to do something more
Yorkshire-ish. His attempt at bringing a Bristol accent to US TV did not go
down well with the director :)
Then again, there's a masochistic humour in watching Americans completely fail
to understand the presence of accents beyond Colin Firth and chimney sweeps.
It's almost a let down when you get it right. That Simpsons episode the other
day wouldn't have been quite so funny if "the prime minister's girlfriend"
wasn't a cockney sparrow whose accent grated with Benedict Cumberbatch's
impersonation of Hugh Grant. We all _know_ that's how you think of us. And who
_doesn't_ want to be mistaken for Benedict Cumberbatch?
Sam Stutter
samjj...@gmail.com
"No e na'l cu barri"
On 29 May 2013, at 07:04, Douglas Koller <douglaskol...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> Date: Tue, 28 May 2013 14:46:05 +0100
>> From: samjj...@gmail.com
>> Subject: Re: THEORY: How to be beautiful?
>> To: conl...@listserv.brown.edu
>
>> I wouldn't even say stereotypical London accent - I think the majority of
>> Americans think of two British accents "posh British" (almost Received
>> Pronunciation) and "cockney", plus maybe "Scottish" if they get their
>> geography right.
>
>> With Britain being associated with the established and urbane through the
>> C19th, RP had good reason to be though of as conferring respectability and
>> intelligence. The association would have died if it had not been for the
>> continued influence of British pop-culture and the UK "brand" that we
>> literally "sell" abroad :)
>
> For British posh, please keep sending us the Helen Mirren, Colin Firth, Hugh
> Grant-y types. But British pop-culture? Adele may croon divinely (again, if
> you like that sort of thing), but in interview she sounds like any ol' slag
> you'd pick up at last call. And microphones stuck in the faces of Londoners
> for average Reginald-on-the-Street reactions to current events hardly ring RP
> or posh. Nor charming chimney sweeps, either.
>
> Kou
>
Messages in this topic (23)
________________________________________________________________________
1f. Re: THEORY: How to be beautiful?
Posted by: "Roman Rausch" ara...@mail.ru
Date: Wed May 29, 2013 3:06 am ((PDT))
> Italian, Finnish ...
To use a culinary metaphor, Italian, Finnish, Spanish and Modern Greek sound
sweet to me (high sonority, a tendency towards high front vowels). Sure, sweet
is good, everyone likes sweet. But there is only so much sweetness you can take
before it makes you sick - sometimes, you get a craving for something tartly. I
found Akkadian to fulfill this craving for me - it has a more earthly and nutty
flavour, with the commonest vowel apparently being /u/ rather than /i/ (from a
superficial look without calculating the proper statistics), and just the
proper dose of ejectives and uvular /q/. It's my favourite beer among natural
languages. :-)
Messages in this topic (23)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
2a. Re: Ot: Ihilda and the Mescratchious
Posted by: "Roger Mills" romi...@yahoo.com
Date: Tue May 28, 2013 7:19 pm ((PDT))
I interpret Ihilda as a name (probably feminine), but the rest is totally
obscure. Even though it includes an English word (scratch (-y) and adj. ending
(-ous)
Off hand, to be commercially viable, you'll need a title that's somewhat more
decscriptive...........
--- On Tue, 5/28/13, Daniel Bowman <danny.c.bow...@gmail.com> wrote:
From: Daniel Bowman <danny.c.bow...@gmail.com>
Subject: Ot: Ihilda and the Mescratchious
To: conl...@listserv.brown.edu
Date: Tuesday, May 28, 2013, 8:55 PM
Hi All:
Before you read any further - what does the following title of a fantasy
novella evoke for you:
Ihilda and the Mescratchious
You may wonder why I am asking this (and how is it related to conlanging).
It's rather exciting for me, actually. I have a reasonably polished draft of a
novella aimed for the young adult market. I have incorporated a few Angosey
words into it; unfortunately Angosey doesn't get to be any more than a naming
language in this case because I don't have a Lord of the Rings sized manuscript
to develop it for my readers.
I just sat down to do a rigorous line-by-line edit when it occurred to me that
my title "Ihilda and the Mescratchious" might give a different impression than
I would like, or be completely confusing. Obviously this will not fly. No
agent or publishing company will pick up my manuscript if they can't understand
the title. So what I'd like to know is a) does the title confuse you, or do
you want to know more and b) what exactly does this title evoke for you?
I look forward to discussing how I wove Angosey into the story if there's
interest on the list.
Thank you,
Danny
Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________
2b. Re: Ot: Ihilda and the Mescratchious
Posted by: "Daniel Bowman" danny.c.bow...@gmail.com
Date: Tue May 28, 2013 7:32 pm ((PDT))
Thank you for your responses - they confirmed what I feared.
For some background:
I invented a creature called a "mescratchiou" when I was probably 5 or 6.
They were mammals about the size of beavers, lived in communal burrows,
laid eggs, and hated dogs. Fast forward about twenty years. I have been
getting back into writing (I did some in high school, but stopped in
college), and so my wife asked me to write her a fairy tale. So I decided
to bring back mescratchious and write a story about a little girl that
saves one of the creatures, and the adventures that result from that choice.
Anyway, I felt the story had promise so I decided to edit it and prepare it
for a publication attempt. I have had to remove a few self-indulgent
things already at the suggestion of a writer friend, such as a sentence or
two in Angosey and a few of the more outlandish names.
I am now engaged in editing the story line by line. I sat in bed and
glared at the title just before starting, and realized that it was likely
incomprehensible, and that I should change it. On the other hand, I rather
enjoy the ridiculous word "mescratchiou." It has a nice history to boot.
I think one of the more difficult things as a writer and a conlanger is to
realize that the rest of society does not (really, cannot) appreciate the
history of the words you invent. Rather, you have to tie it in with tropes
and words they are familiar with. I will be considering different titles
as well as a different name for the animal. I am thinking perhaps "nogori"
- a corruption of the Korean word for raccoon. This word also sounds less
like a skin disease.
Danny
2013/5/28 Roger Mills <romi...@yahoo.com>
> I interpret Ihilda as a name (probably feminine), but the rest is totally
> obscure. Even though it includes an English word (scratch (-y) and adj.
> ending (-ous)
>
> Off hand, to be commercially viable, you'll need a title that's somewhat
> more decscriptive...........
>
> --- On Tue, 5/28/13, Daniel Bowman <danny.c.bow...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> From: Daniel Bowman <danny.c.bow...@gmail.com>
> Subject: Ot: Ihilda and the Mescratchious
> To: conl...@listserv.brown.edu
> Date: Tuesday, May 28, 2013, 8:55 PM
>
> Hi All:
>
> Before you read any further - what does the following title of a fantasy
> novella evoke for you:
>
> Ihilda and the Mescratchious
>
> You may wonder why I am asking this (and how is it related to
> conlanging). It's rather exciting for me, actually. I have a reasonably
> polished draft of a novella aimed for the young adult market. I have
> incorporated a few Angosey words into it; unfortunately Angosey doesn't get
> to be any more than a naming language in this case because I don't have a
> Lord of the Rings sized manuscript to develop it for my readers.
>
> I just sat down to do a rigorous line-by-line edit when it occurred to me
> that my title "Ihilda and the Mescratchious" might give a different
> impression than I would like, or be completely confusing. Obviously this
> will not fly. No agent or publishing company will pick up my manuscript if
> they can't understand the title. So what I'd like to know is a) does the
> title confuse you, or do you want to know more and b) what exactly does
> this title evoke for you?
>
> I look forward to discussing how I wove Angosey into the story if there's
> interest on the list.
>
> Thank you,
>
> Danny
>
Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________
2c. Re: Ot: Ihilda and the Mescratchious
Posted by: "Herman Miller" hmil...@prismnet.com
Date: Tue May 28, 2013 8:31 pm ((PDT))
On 5/28/2013 8:55 PM, Daniel Bowman wrote:
> Hi All:
>
> Before you read any further - what does the following title of a
> fantasy novella evoke for you:
>
> Ihilda and the Mescratchious
Ihilda is clearly a female name (reminiscent of Hildegard).
The Mescratchious is likely some kind of monstrous beast (the frumious
Bandersnatch comes to mind). Maybe something that's a bit mischievous,
and scratches a lot. I don't think you can avoid the itchy feel of that
word "scratch" in there.
Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________
2d. Re: Ot: Ihilda and the Mescratchious
Posted by: "Amanda Babcock Furrow" la...@quandary.org
Date: Tue May 28, 2013 8:32 pm ((PDT))
On Tue, May 28, 2013 at 10:32:45PM -0400, Daniel Bowman wrote:
> Thank you for your responses - they confirmed what I feared.
> For some background:
> I invented a creature called a "mescratchiou" when I was probably 5 or 6.
Oh good heavens, I didn't even realize that was a plural. You're probably
pronouncing it /ijuz/, I was imagining the adjectival ending /ij@s/.
If you did keep the name, you'd need to respell the ending; but the name
change you're contemplating would work too.
tylakèhlpë'da,
Amanda
Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________
2e. Re: Ot: Ihilda and the Mescratchious
Posted by: "Douglas Koller" douglaskol...@hotmail.com
Date: Tue May 28, 2013 10:23 pm ((PDT))
> Date: Tue, 28 May 2013 23:31:22 -0400
> From: hmil...@prismnet.com
> Subject: Re: Ot: Ihilda and the Mescratchious
> To: conl...@listserv.brown.edu
> On 5/28/2013 8:55 PM, Daniel Bowman wrote:
> > Hi All:
> > Before you read any further - what does the following title of a
> > fantasy novella evoke for you:
> > Ihilda and the Mescratchious
> Ihilda is clearly a female name (reminiscent of Hildegard).
My thought, too. In the 5-to-8 range? (Brunhilde, for me)
> The Mescratchious is likely some kind of monstrous beast (the frumious
> Bandersnatch comes to mind). Maybe something that's a bit mischievous,
> and scratches a lot.
My immediate thoughts were of Lewis Carroll (portemanteau) and _Where the Wild
Thing Are_. I, too, did not think plural, but adjective gone substantive. I did
think mischievous. Maybe lives in her closet. Lummoxy? "scratch" is in there,
of course, but I didn't go immediately to "itchy" or skin afflictions. My
curiosity as reader was certainly piqued -- what's a Mescratchious
[mɪs'krætʃi.əs]/[mɛs'krætʃi.əs]/[məs'krætʃi.əs] and what will it and our little
intrepid heroine encounter?
Kou
Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
3a. Re: Is this a good place to present Ehenív?
Posted by: "Herman Miller" hmil...@prismnet.com
Date: Tue May 28, 2013 8:19 pm ((PDT))
On 5/28/2013 7:50 PM, Nina-Kristine Johnson wrote:
> I started working on it at University. I spent 8 years perfecting it and
> because of it: it is actually somewhat functional. I know it is not really
> anyone's cuppa tea, but I enjoy using it on my little dry erase board at
> work for writing out my daily agenda (break at 9 AM, e.g.). My colleagues
> think it is amusing when I use the language.
I'm a big fan of tea, almost any kind but chamomile actually, and it
looks like your language doesn't taste much like chamomile.
> Here is a link to the site. *Kiti...bi wanho*. (please enjoy)
>
> http://irondune.com/eheniv_site/ehenivhohai1.html
>
> *Tisala-e aks kitit!* (Cheers and thanks!),
> Kristine
Some interesting stuff there. Nice that you have a word for "ocarina"
(even though it is "akarina" ... well, even English borrowed that one.)
How does your word derivation work? It looks like some words are clearly
related, like lųpethl : malųpe, benkal : malbén, éroz : vérozín. Are
there other words that follow the same patterns?
Messages in this topic (6)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
4a. Chamomile, was:Re: Is this a good place to present Ehenív?
Posted by: "Adam Walker" carra...@gmail.com
Date: Tue May 28, 2013 8:37 pm ((PDT))
Ewww! Chamomile! Chamomile tea is often recommended for people with
allergies to ragweed, one of the major pollens here in North Texas,
and one which causes me much grief. I tried it. If you have allergies
like mine you'll try most anything once. The reason it is supposed to
work is because the two plants are related. UNFORTUNATELY, I seem to
be rather allergic to chamomile as well. It left me all Mescratchious.
Appologies to Angosey. I couldn't help the cross-thread pun.
Adam
On 5/28/13, Herman Miller <hmil...@prismnet.com> wrote:
> On 5/28/2013 7:50 PM, Nina-Kristine Johnson wrote:
>
>> I started working on it at University. I spent 8 years perfecting it and
>> because of it: it is actually somewhat functional. I know it is not
>> really
>> anyone's cuppa tea, but I enjoy using it on my little dry erase board at
>> work for writing out my daily agenda (break at 9 AM, e.g.). My colleagues
>> think it is amusing when I use the language.
>
> I'm a big fan of tea, almost any kind but chamomile actually, and it
> looks like your language doesn't taste much like chamomile.
>
>> Here is a link to the site. *Kiti...bi wanho*. (please enjoy)
>>
>> http://irondune.com/eheniv_site/ehenivhohai1.html
>>
>> *Tisala-e aks kitit!* (Cheers and thanks!),
>> Kristine
>
> Some interesting stuff there. Nice that you have a word for "ocarina"
> (even though it is "akarina" ... well, even English borrowed that one.)
>
> How does your word derivation work? It looks like some words are clearly
> related, like lųpethl : malųpe, benkal : malbén, éroz : vérozín. Are
> there other words that follow the same patterns?
>
Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
4b. Re: Chamomile, was: Re: Is this a good place to present Ehenív?
Posted by: "Douglas Koller" douglaskol...@hotmail.com
Date: Tue May 28, 2013 10:06 pm ((PDT))
> Date: Tue, 28 May 2013 22:37:15 -0500
> From: carra...@gmail.com
> Subject: Chamomile, was:Re: Is this a good place to present Ehenív?
> To: conl...@listserv.brown.edu
> On 5/28/13, Herman Miller <hmil...@prismnet.com> wrote:
> > I'm a big fan of tea, almost any kind but chamomile actually, and it
> > looks like your language doesn't taste much like chamomile.
> Ewww! Chamomile! Chamomile tea is often recommended for people with
> allergies to ragweed,
Don't mind the beverage, though I can't say's I'm a big fan, either. I do love
the word, however, as I have heard it pronounced at least three ways. And I
like the concept of a soothing tisane, but the word also makes me think your
Gran, floral-print house dresses, folded handkerchieves, wicker, lavender...
Chamomile, chamomile, chamomile.
Kou
Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
5a. Re: Dieing Languages
Posted by: "Padraic Brown" elemti...@yahoo.com
Date: Wed May 29, 2013 4:27 am ((PDT))
--- On Tue, 5/28/13, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews <goldyemo...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> How does what work out too?
`n/o*id#%l$e
Padraic
Messages in this topic (11)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/conlang/
<*> Your email settings:
Digest Email | Traditional
<*> To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/conlang/join
(Yahoo! ID required)
<*> To change settings via email:
conlang-nor...@yahoogroups.com
conlang-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com
<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
conlang-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com
<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
------------------------------------------------------------------------
