There are 5 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. Re: "How do you say X (in LANGUAGE)?"
From: Mechthild Czapp
1b. Re: "How do you say X (in LANGUAGE)?"
From: Jim Henry
1c. Re: "How do you say X (in LANGUAGE)?"
From: C. Brickner
2.1. Re: Dieing Languages
From: H. S. Teoh
2.2. Re: Dieing Languages
From: Padraic Brown
Messages
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1a. Re: "How do you say X (in LANGUAGE)?"
Posted by: "Mechthild Czapp" [email protected]
Date: Thu May 30, 2013 9:09 am ((PDT))
Rejistanian would use:
Il'ma 'vetix "X" rejistaniha sunreja?
2S-be_able (INF)express "X" rejistanian how?
How do you express X in a rejistanian manner?
Neoquux has more serious issue with this. I will avoid the issue of using the
name "English", but even the X already is an issue.
Txy qusatithz44 m44thza. Txy jeeXli pvvntathzii. 'vvqhv quXza pvvntaa'44.
Caarhe'a'achy laa. 'vvqhv quucaaxa'a je.
It is my wish for the future that quuxa and humans to communicate. It is my
wish for the future that humans talk about X. It is my suggestion that a quuxa
explains X. There is a relation between planet and language. It is my
suggestion that a quuxa uses language.
Why? Mostly because Neoquux has no deixis or just about anything else which
males a language tick and these things have to be provided by pragmatics. The
distilled meaning, with all intended deixis resolved is this: It is my wish
that I can talk to you about X. Can you explain X to me and can you use the
language of this planet?
Am 30.05.2013 um 16:20 schrieb Zach Wellstood <[email protected]>:
> łaá siri is probably not too different in its actual structure, maybe it is
> in how the sentence is translated though.
>
> "How do you say 'word' in łaá siri?"
> ri łaá siri tłar la' «word»
> laa'ara'ilu?
> INTERR ł.s. INSTR ABSTR word
> ABSTR-ABSTR-APPLIC-by.what.means-comprehend
> Using łaá siri, how can one comprehend/understand «word»?
>
> INTERR - interrogative
> INSTR - instrumental postposition
> ABSTR - abstract demonstrative / abstract deictic conjugation
> APPLIC - applicative (used almost solely for instrumental constructions)
>
> All of English's traditional question words (what, who, how) are actually
> modified evidentials which appear where normal evidentials in łaá siri's
> verbs would. So -ra'i- can be translated as "by what means" or "how."
>
> Zach
>
>
> On Thu, May 30, 2013 at 9:37 AM, Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets <
> [email protected]> wrote:
>
>> On 30 May 2013 14:24, George Corley <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> Hey, people. I'm working on a series of shorts for Conlangery on some
>>> simple phrasebook-style phrases, one of which will be asking for the
>>> definition or translation of a word. I've thought of a couple somewhat
>>> interesting examples from languages I know:
>>>
>>> Spanish: "Que quiere decir (X)?" lit. "What does X want to say?" (with
>> some
>>> word order fun)
>>> Mandarin: X有什么意思？ "What meaning does X have."
>>>
>>> And of course the more mundane examples that literally translate as "What
>>> does X mean?" or "How do you say X?" or "What is X?"
>>>
>>>
>> French does it much like Spanish does: "Qu'est-ce que X veut dire ?". But
>> interestingly enough, despite being an isolate Basque does exactly the
>> same: "Zer esan nahi du X-ak?" . "Esan" means "to say" and "nahi du" is an
>> expression that is equivalent to "to want" ("nahi" is a noun meaning "will,
>> desire"). And X takes the ergative case (if it can take case at all),
>> AFAIK.
>>
>> To keep with its Basque influence, Moten does it much the same way: _X
>> mudutun zvezi ige?_ (_mudutun_ is _mut_: "what" in the accusative case,
>> while _zvezi ige_ is the desiderative mood of _isej_: "to say, to tell").
>> In this sentence, X is the subject of a verb in the desiderative mood, so
>> it will be in the nominative case.
>>
>>
>>> So, basically, I'm asking about interesting ways that natlangs or
>> conlangs
>>> express this idiomatically, as a way to provoke some creative thinking.
>>> I'm also interested in how to express the "... in LANGUAGE" bit, as in,
>>> "How do you say simpático in English?" In the past, I have tended to use
>> an
>>> instrumental for this meaning, but I'm not sure if this occurs in natural
>>> languages -- Mandarin might be close, as I believe you can say something
>>> like 用中文说, "use Chinese to say", but that may be in contexts more related
>>> to what language a message is conveyed in, and not more generally.
>>>
>>
>> Using an instrumental to mean "in LANGUAGE" does occur in natlangs, don't
>> worry about it :) . In fact, my impression is that it's relatively common
>> as soon as a language has a specific instrumental case or construction. In
>> particular, it's the normal way to do it in Basque. In the sentence "Nola
>> esaten da euskaraz "house"?": "How do you say "house" in Basque?",
>> "euskaraz" is the instrumental case of "euskara": "the Basque language". In
>> the same way, you have "ingelesez": "in English" and "frantsesez": "in
>> French". And Basque being what it is, those phrases see a lot more use than
>> that :) . For example, you can over-inflect them to use them as noun
>> complements, as in "euskarazko eleberri": "Basque-language novel".
>>
>> Japanese is similar, using the instrumental (among other meanings) で (de)
>> particle to mean "in LANGUAGE". For instance: 日本語で手紙を書いた (nihongo de tegami
>> o kaita): "I wrote the letter in Japanese".
>>
>> Here again, Moten simply copies what Basque already does: from
>> _motenku|leju_: "the Moten language", one gets _komotenku|leju_: "in Moten"
>> (_ko-_ being a prefix marking the instrumental), which can be overinflected
>> to form _komotenku|lejvuj nanaguz_: "Moten-language book".
>> --
>> Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets.
>>
>> http://christophoronomicon.blogspot.com/
>> http://www.christophoronomicon.nl/
>>
>
>
>
> --
> raa'lalí 'aa! - [sirisaá! <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conlang>]
Messages in this topic (7)
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1b. Re: "How do you say X (in LANGUAGE)?"
Posted by: "Jim Henry" [email protected]
Date: Thu May 30, 2013 10:07 am ((PDT))
On Thu, May 30, 2013 at 8:24 AM, George Corley <[email protected]> wrote:
> So, basically, I'm asking about interesting ways that natlangs or conlangs
> express this idiomatically, as a way to provoke some creative thinking.
gjâ-zym-byn:
?nĭm-θaj-nǒ-van twâ-θy iŋglĭŝ-lam-na {language} mĭ-i.
name-OPP-Q.WH-V.STATE sentence-element English-NAME-made.of "language" topic-at
What does the English word "language" mean?
> I'm also interested in how to express the "... in LANGUAGE" bit, as in,
> "How do you say simpático in English?" In the past, I have tended to use an
> instrumental for this meaning, but I'm not sure if this occurs in natural
The complement/opposite suffix {-θaj} is used to derive "meaning" from
"name", and the "made of substance X" suffix {-na} is used (in this
context) to mean "in a given language". gzb can also use an
instrumental postposition {syj-i} to mean "in a language," in other
contexts (where it's modifying a verb rather than a noun).
http://jimhenry.conlang.org/gzb/semantic.htm#p3_7843
--
Jim Henry
http://www.pobox.com/~jimhenry/
http://www.jimhenrymedicaltrust.org
Messages in this topic (7)
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1c. Re: "How do you say X (in LANGUAGE)?"
Posted by: "C. Brickner" [email protected]
Date: Thu May 30, 2013 11:07 am ((PDT))
In Senjecas:
ĸ̌os X ðééa senȝe̋κo ɱe̋ros e̋sar.
what X in-place-of Senjecan word is-Q
How do you say X in Senjecas?
What is the Senjecan word for X?
----- Original Message -----Hey, people. I'm working on a series of shorts for
Conlangery on some
simple phrasebook-style phrases, one of which will be asking for the
definition or translation of a word. I've thought of a couple somewhat
interesting examples from languages I know:
Spanish: "Que quiere decir (X)?" lit. "What does X want to say?" (with some
word order fun)
Mandarin: X有什么意思？ "What meaning does X have."
And of course the more mundane examples that literally translate as "What
does X mean?" or "How do you say X?" or "What is X?"
So, basically, I'm asking about interesting ways that natlangs or conlangs
express this idiomatically, as a way to provoke some creative thinking.
I'm also interested in how to express the "... in LANGUAGE" bit, as in,
"How do you say simpático in English?" In the past, I have tended to use an
instrumental for this meaning, but I'm not sure if this occurs in natural
languages -- Mandarin might be close, as I believe you can say something
like 用中文说, "use Chinese to say", but that may be in contexts more related
to what language a message is conveyed in, and not more generally.
Messages in this topic (7)
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________________________________________________________________________
2.1. Re: Dieing Languages
Posted by: "H. S. Teoh" [email protected]
Date: Thu May 30, 2013 9:36 am ((PDT))
On Thu, May 30, 2013 at 11:00:31AM -0500, Adam Walker wrote:
> Saya go makan zai ni jia li okay lah?
Ya lor, wo men semua cakap like this one leh! :) Brings back the
memories... now I want to go for a makan at ah chek's kopi tiam...
ObConlang: one of these days I should write a story about kids from Fara
visiting the outside world and creating a pidgin of English and Tatari
Faran...
[...]
> On 5/30/13, H. S. Teoh <[email protected]> wrote:
> > On Thu, May 30, 2013 at 12:06:07AM -0700, Garth Wallace wrote:
> >> On Thu, May 30, 2013 at 2:07 AM, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
> >> <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> > Humm, that's why I love this list, you all make me think.
> >> >
> >> > Thanks.I like burn and th last one, a bug that gives a fever.
> >> > I'm thinking to borrow medical terms from Silknish. What's code
> >> > switching?
> >> > Would that be borrowing from Yardish to Silknishz?
> >>
> >> Code-switching is when a bilingual speaker switches from speaking in
> >> one language to speaking in another. Like a kid who is fluent in both
> >> English and Spanish speaking English in class and then chatting with
> >> their friends in Spanish.
> >
> > I thought code-switching was changing between languages mid-sentence?
> >
> > Growing up in a highly multi-lingual environment, I code-switch a lot.
> > In my childhood we often borrow words from one language into another,
> > something switching between languages mid-sentence (along with change in
> > grammar -- sometimes multiple times per sentence!) It's not always clear
> > whether it's pure code-switching, or forming a pidgin. Or perhaps both
> > are just different degrees of the same?
> >
> >
> > T
> >
> > --
> > By understanding a machine-oriented language, the programmer will tend to
> > use a much more efficient method; it is much closer to reality. -- D. Knuth
> >
--
You have to expect the unexpected. -- RL
Messages in this topic (28)
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2.2. Re: Dieing Languages
Posted by: "Padraic Brown" [email protected]
Date: Thu May 30, 2013 11:19 am ((PDT))
--- On Tue, 5/28/13, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews <[email protected]>
wrote:
> What does it mean, you mean? I'm confused by your question.
Well, then, I guess that now makes four of us who are confused about this
same point!
> The last descendants want Silknish to become a living language to
If there is already a speaking community (or network, or whatever), then
the language is in fact a living language already.
> increase the current vocabulary, so that unnamed items, like an unknown
> disease can use Silknish root forms, as the diseases and medical terms
> have
> those, and they feel that giving a new diseas or medical
> term or instrument has a Yardish root form, it would change
> the meaning.
Huh? How so? Why would they change the meaning, if the meaning is some
medical term? For example, we got croup from Scots (or leastways, we
borrowed the word "croup" from Scots, dunno if we got the disease from
them or not!). When we borrowed this word, we seem to have only taken
the medical term -- an infectious disease of the larynx which causes
difficulty in beathing. We didn't take the other throaty meanings of
"croop" in Scots, such as croak or speak hoarsely or murmur.
I should think that if Silknish is down to a small handful of speakers,
they would have more problems on their hands than creating words for
rare diseases or bizarre surgical instruments. Unless of course, all the
speakers of Silknish work in the same hospital, and then it might be
a nice idea for them to coin a Silknish word for "Bogdaz carapace spreader"
where there is none now.
> For examplele, the root form `t#c%%h$e which means frost, as in
> frostbite, would change to fever is spelled tche, which wouldn't work
> with bite.
We still don't know what all those characters boil down to...
Padraic
> Mellissa Green
Messages in this topic (28)
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