There are 15 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1.1. Re: "How do you say X (in LANGUAGE)?"
From: Juanma Barranquero
1.2. Re: "How do you say X (in LANGUAGE)?"
From: Juanma Barranquero
2a. Re: [THEORY] What did proto-language speakers look like?
From: George Corley
3a. Re: Is Esperanto Indo-European?
From: Douglas Koller
3b. Re: Is Esperanto Indo-European?
From: H. S. Teoh
3c. Re: Is Esperanto Indo-European?
From: J. 'Mach' Wust
3d. Re: Is Esperanto Indo-European?
From: H. S. Teoh
3e. Re: Is Esperanto Indo-European?
From: James Kane
3f. Re: Is Esperanto Indo-European?
From: Rebecca Bettencourt
3g. Re: Is Esperanto Indo-European?
From: James Kane
3h. Re: Is Esperanto Indo-European?
From: Leonardo Castro
3i. Re: Is Esperanto Indo-European?
From: Roger Mills
4a. Re: What English text would maximally highlight accents?
From: And Rosta
4b. Re: What English text would maximally highlight accents?
From: Leonardo Castro
4c. Re: What English text would maximally highlight accents?
From: Daniel Bowman
Messages
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1.1. Re: "How do you say X (in LANGUAGE)?"
Posted by: "Juanma Barranquero" lek...@gmail.com
Date: Tue Jun 4, 2013 7:08 pm ((PDT))
> IN HS Spanish, we _never_ used (though we were taught to recognize them) the
> familiar 2d pers. forms of verb; it was always Usted + 3d pers. I had an
> early trip to Spain, where it was mostly Usted, but I did manage to use tú
> with certain ladies I met....
[...]
> Then in 1967 I made a trip to Latin America. First stop, Lima Peru. Some of
> it was business, so that was Usted. But on my flight from Lima to Cuzco, I
> started chatting with the young woman in the next seat, and she _immediately_
> used tú with me. I tell you, I was shocked!! But it turned out, that is now
> very common.
At least in Spain, using "tú" is nowadays *much* more common than
"usted". "Usted" is still used in very formal situations, of course,
and in business (or bureaucratic) transactions, etc. It was very usual
to use it when speaking to complete strangers (to ask the time, or for
directions, etc.), though at the present, I think most people wouldn't
be offended at all if addressed with "tú" (certainly I've asked "¿Me
puedes decir la hora, por favor?" to random people in the street with
no ill effect ;-) As another example, my mother used "usted" with her
parents until their deaths, but I have *never* used "usted" with mine,
for example (I'm 48, for reference), nor with hers (so it was a bit
strange when in the same conversation she would address his mother
with "usted" while I addressed her [my grandmother] with "tú").
Of course there's a sociolinguistic component; usted is still
relatively frequent in rural environments.
Juanma
Messages in this topic (47)
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1.2. Re: "How do you say X (in LANGUAGE)?"
Posted by: "Juanma Barranquero" lek...@gmail.com
Date: Tue Jun 4, 2013 7:09 pm ((PDT))
On Wed, Jun 5, 2013 at 4:07 AM, Juanma Barranquero <lek...@gmail.com> wrote:
> strange when in the same conversation she would address his mother
/her/ mother, obviously :-(
Juanma
Messages in this topic (47)
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2a. Re: [THEORY] What did proto-language speakers look like?
Posted by: "George Corley" gacor...@gmail.com
Date: Tue Jun 4, 2013 7:18 pm ((PDT))
In general, determining what speakers of a proto-language looked like
should probably be handled by physical anthropologists independently. Once
we have some idea where the language may have originated, we can compare
notes and see how that works out. The fact is, languages mostly spread by
local populations adopting another language, not by colonists completely
overrunning the locals.
On Tue, Jun 4, 2013 at 6:44 PM, Wesley Parish <wes.par...@paradise.net.nz>wrote:
> They were three-foot-high market analysts who fell out of the wormhole in
> reality created by the Heart of Gold on its maiden voyage ... :) They were
> green-skinned with pink polka dots and purple stripes ... :)
>
> Speaking facetiously, I think they probably would've looked like the Semang
> while in their initial, beach-comber phase c60 000ya until they set out to
> explore their particular environments; I think the proto-Afro-Asiatic
> speakers
> would've looked like the Ethiopians and Somalis.
>
> There are some useful books on the human genetic journey from Out of Africa
> stage to present day. can't recall them all offhand but they are what
> you're
> looking for:
> http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/399298.Out_Of_Eden
>
> Wesley Parish
>
> Quoting Leonardo Castro <leolucas1...@gmail.com>:
>
> > Can we have any reliable idea of what the speakers of proto-languages
> > looked like physically?
> >
> > According to Nicholas Ostler's book, Proto-Afro-Asiatic is probably
> > from Africa. Were its speakers black?
> >
> > Were the speakers of Altaic languages Caucasian or Mongolic?
> >
> > Do we have current languages that are descendants of Blonde languages?
> > Or ¿Finnish and Nordic languages are ultimately invasive Brunette
> > languages?
> >
> > Até mais!
> >
> > Leonardo
> >
>
>
>
> "Sharpened hands are happy hands.
> "Brim the tinfall with mirthful bands"
> - A Deepness in the Sky, Vernor Vinge
>
> "I me. Shape middled me. I would come out into hot!"
> I from the spicy that day was overcasked mockingly - it's a symbol of the
> other horizon. - emacs : meta x dissociated-press
>
Messages in this topic (3)
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3a. Re: Is Esperanto Indo-European?
Posted by: "Douglas Koller" douglaskol...@hotmail.com
Date: Tue Jun 4, 2013 8:43 pm ((PDT))
> Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2013 20:26:09 -0300
> From: leolucas1...@gmail.com
> Subject: Re: Is Esperanto Indo-European?
> To: conl...@listserv.brown.edu
> But all of them are just coincidences... ;-) Isn't there a language in
> a distant planet that is exactly the same as English by pure
> coincidence?
Typing monkeys, _The Complete Works of Shakespeare_ ... :)
Kou
Messages in this topic (17)
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3b. Re: Is Esperanto Indo-European?
Posted by: "H. S. Teoh" hst...@quickfur.ath.cx
Date: Tue Jun 4, 2013 9:58 pm ((PDT))
On Tue, Jun 04, 2013 at 11:41:30PM -0400, Douglas Koller wrote:
> > Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2013 20:26:09 -0300
> > From: leolucas1...@gmail.com
> > Subject: Re: Is Esperanto Indo-European?
> > To: conl...@listserv.brown.edu
>
> > But all of them are just coincidences... ;-) Isn't there a language
> > in a distant planet that is exactly the same as English by pure
> > coincidence?
>
> Typing monkeys, _The Complete Works of Shakespeare_ ... :)
[...]
We've all heard that a million monkeys banging on a million
typewriters will eventually reproduce the entire works of
Shakespeare. Now, thanks to the Internet, we know this is not
true. -- Robert Wilensk
:-)
On a related note, when people talk about coincidences of this sort, we
generally tend to forget what manner of sheer immensity the number of
possibilities are. For example, the hypothetical library of random works
typed by monkeys would contain, in theory, not only the complete works
of Shakespeare, but also every possible variation thereof, including the
complete works with 1 typo, the complete works with 2 typos, the
complete works with a substituted word, 2 substituted words, 1 misspelt
word, 1 punctuation error, etc., every possible abridged version, some
containing random truncations of the text, random omissions, etc.. And
these are only the closest variants thereof. The vast majority of the
books in this "library" will be pure gibberish: finding "real" complete
works of Shakespeare would be so deeply buried in the cacophonous
torrent of utter gibberish as to be pretty much impossible to find. Then
even if a promising candidate were to be found by impossible chance,
we'd have no confidence whether it was the *real* works of Shakespeare,
or some corrupted mutation thereof.
And of course, this "library" also includes every possible book in the
universe, both all the books that have been written and ever will be
written, corrupted versions of said books, books containing true
prophecies of the future of the universe, books containing false
prophecies of the future of the universe, books containing as-yet
undiscovered laws of physics, books containing *false* laws of physics
that cannot be discerned as such until thorough study, books containing
astounding claims that cannot be verified, books containing coherent
text with random nonsense sprinkled in between, books containing
incoherent text, ... the list of possibilities can hardly be exhausted
by description. The vast overwhelming majority of these "books" are
complete nonsense, and of those that bear some passing resemblance to
coherent text, it's impossible to tell whether they are "real" books or
random corruptions thereof or merely the output of a random text
generator with no real content underneath (or subtle alterations of real
books that mislead the reader!).
In other words, such a library is completely useless, because in order
to be able to tell the gold from the chaff, you have to basically write
the book yourself, so you might as well just do that instead of trying
to sift through the 99.99999999999...% of gibberish and the
0.000...0001% of lookalikes that may or may not be (and chances are it's
not) the real thing.
So when speaking of possibilities of this sort, it's really no different
from impossibility. The "possibility" is merely theoretical. :)
T
--
Let X be the set not defined by this sentence...
Messages in this topic (17)
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3c. Re: Is Esperanto Indo-European?
Posted by: "J. 'Mach' Wust" j_mach_w...@shared-files.de
Date: Tue Jun 4, 2013 10:45 pm ((PDT))
On Tue, 4 Jun 2013 21:57:13 -0700, H. S. Teoh wrote:
>In other words, such a library is completely useless, because in order
>to be able to tell the gold from the chaff, you have to basically write
>the book yourself, so you might as well just do that instead of trying
>to sift through the 99.99999999999...% of gibberish and the
>0.000...0001% of lookalikes that may or may not be (and chances are it's
>not) the real thing.
It is useless unless you find the Complete Guide to the Library, which
is, of course, among the books that exists. But as Borges has pointed
out, it is a rather mythical book, and the search for it has something
religious about it.
--
grüess
mach
Messages in this topic (17)
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3d. Re: Is Esperanto Indo-European?
Posted by: "H. S. Teoh" hst...@quickfur.ath.cx
Date: Tue Jun 4, 2013 10:55 pm ((PDT))
On Wed, Jun 05, 2013 at 01:45:25AM -0400, J. 'Mach' Wust wrote:
> On Tue, 4 Jun 2013 21:57:13 -0700, H. S. Teoh wrote:
>
> >In other words, such a library is completely useless, because in
> >order to be able to tell the gold from the chaff, you have to
> >basically write the book yourself, so you might as well just do that
> >instead of trying to sift through the 99.99999999999...% of gibberish
> >and the 0.000...0001% of lookalikes that may or may not be (and
> >chances are it's not) the real thing.
>
> It is useless unless you find the Complete Guide to the Library, which
> is, of course, among the books that exists. But as Borges has pointed
> out, it is a rather mythical book, and the search for it has something
> religious about it.
[...]
Ah, but the thing is, you wouldn't *know* when you've found the Complete
Guide, because its countless variants, corruptions, and distortions
thereof are present in the library too! In order to be able to tell the
Complete Guide from all of its misleading imitations, you pretty much
have to be able to write it yourself, which defeats its very purpose! :)
T
--
Тише едешь, дальше будешь.
Messages in this topic (17)
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3e. Re: Is Esperanto Indo-European?
Posted by: "James Kane" kane...@gmail.com
Date: Tue Jun 4, 2013 11:21 pm ((PDT))
Remember that every irrational number, of which there is an uncountable
infinity, has an infinite string of digits, which, if converted with the right
base, does the job of those type-writing monkeys all by itself.
James
Sent from my iPhone
On 5/06/2013, at 5:54 PM, "H. S. Teoh" <hst...@quickfur.ath.cx> wrote:
> On Wed, Jun 05, 2013 at 01:45:25AM -0400, J. 'Mach' Wust wrote:
>> On Tue, 4 Jun 2013 21:57:13 -0700, H. S. Teoh wrote:
>>
>>> In other words, such a library is completely useless, because in
>>> order to be able to tell the gold from the chaff, you have to
>>> basically write the book yourself, so you might as well just do that
>>> instead of trying to sift through the 99.99999999999...% of gibberish
>>> and the 0.000...0001% of lookalikes that may or may not be (and
>>> chances are it's not) the real thing.
>>
>> It is useless unless you find the Complete Guide to the Library, which
>> is, of course, among the books that exists. But as Borges has pointed
>> out, it is a rather mythical book, and the search for it has something
>> religious about it.
> [...]
>
> Ah, but the thing is, you wouldn't *know* when you've found the Complete
> Guide, because its countless variants, corruptions, and distortions
> thereof are present in the library too! In order to be able to tell the
> Complete Guide from all of its misleading imitations, you pretty much
> have to be able to write it yourself, which defeats its very purpose! :)
>
>
> T
>
> --
> Тише едешь, дальше будешь.
Messages in this topic (17)
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3f. Re: Is Esperanto Indo-European?
Posted by: "Rebecca Bettencourt" beckie...@gmail.com
Date: Tue Jun 4, 2013 11:34 pm ((PDT))
You're thinking of normal numbers. Just being irrational is not a
sufficient condition for having this property. An easy counterexample would
be the number 0.011000111100000111111.... It's not even known yet if pi is
normal.
Source:
http://math.stackexchange.com/questions/216343/does-pi-contain-all-possible-number-combinations
On Jun 4, 2013 11:21 PM, "James Kane" <kane...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Remember that every irrational number, of which there is an uncountable
> infinity, has an infinite string of digits, which, if converted with the
> right base, does the job of those type-writing monkeys all by itself.
>
>
> James
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On 5/06/2013, at 5:54 PM, "H. S. Teoh" <hst...@quickfur.ath.cx> wrote:
>
> > On Wed, Jun 05, 2013 at 01:45:25AM -0400, J. 'Mach' Wust wrote:
> >> On Tue, 4 Jun 2013 21:57:13 -0700, H. S. Teoh wrote:
> >>
> >>> In other words, such a library is completely useless, because in
> >>> order to be able to tell the gold from the chaff, you have to
> >>> basically write the book yourself, so you might as well just do that
> >>> instead of trying to sift through the 99.99999999999...% of gibberish
> >>> and the 0.000...0001% of lookalikes that may or may not be (and
> >>> chances are it's not) the real thing.
> >>
> >> It is useless unless you find the Complete Guide to the Library, which
> >> is, of course, among the books that exists. But as Borges has pointed
> >> out, it is a rather mythical book, and the search for it has something
> >> religious about it.
> > [...]
> >
> > Ah, but the thing is, you wouldn't *know* when you've found the Complete
> > Guide, because its countless variants, corruptions, and distortions
> > thereof are present in the library too! In order to be able to tell the
> > Complete Guide from all of its misleading imitations, you pretty much
> > have to be able to write it yourself, which defeats its very purpose! :)
> >
> >
> > T
> >
> > --
> > ���� �����, ������ ������.
>
Messages in this topic (17)
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3g. Re: Is Esperanto Indo-European?
Posted by: "James Kane" kane...@gmail.com
Date: Wed Jun 5, 2013 2:31 am ((PDT))
Is it possible that the number you have is only non-normal in base 10? I'm not
sure, that area of maths is going slightly above my head. But yes I definitely
meant normal rather than every rational numbers. Are there uncountably many of
those?
James
On 5/06/2013, at 6:34 PM, Rebecca Bettencourt <beckie...@gmail.com> wrote:
> You're thinking of normal numbers. Just being irrational is not a
> sufficient condition for having this property. An easy counterexample would
> be the number 0.011000111100000111111.... It's not even known yet if pi is
> normal.
>
> Source:
> http://math.stackexchange.com/questions/216343/does-pi-contain-all-possible-number-combinations
> On Jun 4, 2013 11:21 PM, "James Kane" <kane...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Remember that every irrational number, of which there is an uncountable
>> infinity, has an infinite string of digits, which, if converted with the
>> right base, does the job of those type-writing monkeys all by itself.
>>
>>
>> James
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On 5/06/2013, at 5:54 PM, "H. S. Teoh" <hst...@quickfur.ath.cx> wrote:
>>
>>> On Wed, Jun 05, 2013 at 01:45:25AM -0400, J. 'Mach' Wust wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 4 Jun 2013 21:57:13 -0700, H. S. Teoh wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In other words, such a library is completely useless, because in
>>>>> order to be able to tell the gold from the chaff, you have to
>>>>> basically write the book yourself, so you might as well just do that
>>>>> instead of trying to sift through the 99.99999999999...% of gibberish
>>>>> and the 0.000...0001% of lookalikes that may or may not be (and
>>>>> chances are it's not) the real thing.
>>>>
>>>> It is useless unless you find the Complete Guide to the Library, which
>>>> is, of course, among the books that exists. But as Borges has pointed
>>>> out, it is a rather mythical book, and the search for it has something
>>>> religious about it.
>>> [...]
>>>
>>> Ah, but the thing is, you wouldn't *know* when you've found the Complete
>>> Guide, because its countless variants, corruptions, and distortions
>>> thereof are present in the library too! In order to be able to tell the
>>> Complete Guide from all of its misleading imitations, you pretty much
>>> have to be able to write it yourself, which defeats its very purpose! :)
>>>
>>>
>>> T
>>>
>>> --
>>> Тише едешь, дальше будешь.
>>
Messages in this topic (17)
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3h. Re: Is Esperanto Indo-European?
Posted by: "Leonardo Castro" leolucas1...@gmail.com
Date: Wed Jun 5, 2013 2:47 am ((PDT))
Just take a look at "Aliens Speaking English" in TV Tropes:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Quotes/AliensSpeakingEnglish
"Homer: How is it that you speak English?
Alien: Actually, we're speaking Rigellian. By coincidence, our
languages are exactly the same."
—The Simpsons, a Treehouse of Horror short.
Até mais!
Leonardo
2013/6/5 James Kane <kane...@gmail.com>:
> Is it possible that the number you have is only non-normal in base 10? I'm
> not sure, that area of maths is going slightly above my head. But yes I
> definitely meant normal rather than every rational numbers. Are there
> uncountably many of those?
>
> James
>
> On 5/06/2013, at 6:34 PM, Rebecca Bettencourt <beckie...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> You're thinking of normal numbers. Just being irrational is not a
>> sufficient condition for having this property. An easy counterexample would
>> be the number 0.011000111100000111111.... It's not even known yet if pi is
>> normal.
>>
>> Source:
>> http://math.stackexchange.com/questions/216343/does-pi-contain-all-possible-number-combinations
>> On Jun 4, 2013 11:21 PM, "James Kane" <kane...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Remember that every irrational number, of which there is an uncountable
>>> infinity, has an infinite string of digits, which, if converted with the
>>> right base, does the job of those type-writing monkeys all by itself.
>>>
>>>
>>> James
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>> On 5/06/2013, at 5:54 PM, "H. S. Teoh" <hst...@quickfur.ath.cx> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Wed, Jun 05, 2013 at 01:45:25AM -0400, J. 'Mach' Wust wrote:
>>>>> On Tue, 4 Jun 2013 21:57:13 -0700, H. S. Teoh wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> In other words, such a library is completely useless, because in
>>>>>> order to be able to tell the gold from the chaff, you have to
>>>>>> basically write the book yourself, so you might as well just do that
>>>>>> instead of trying to sift through the 99.99999999999...% of gibberish
>>>>>> and the 0.000...0001% of lookalikes that may or may not be (and
>>>>>> chances are it's not) the real thing.
>>>>>
>>>>> It is useless unless you find the Complete Guide to the Library, which
>>>>> is, of course, among the books that exists. But as Borges has pointed
>>>>> out, it is a rather mythical book, and the search for it has something
>>>>> religious about it.
>>>> [...]
>>>>
>>>> Ah, but the thing is, you wouldn't *know* when you've found the Complete
>>>> Guide, because its countless variants, corruptions, and distortions
>>>> thereof are present in the library too! In order to be able to tell the
>>>> Complete Guide from all of its misleading imitations, you pretty much
>>>> have to be able to write it yourself, which defeats its very purpose! :)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> T
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Тише едешь, дальше будешь.
>>>
Messages in this topic (17)
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3i. Re: Is Esperanto Indo-European?
Posted by: "Roger Mills" romi...@yahoo.com
Date: Wed Jun 5, 2013 6:54 am ((PDT))
One of my profs. years ago referred to E-o as "Indo-European pidgin". That
always struck me as about right :-)))))
Messages in this topic (17)
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4a. Re: What English text would maximally highlight accents?
Posted by: "And Rosta" and.ro...@gmail.com
Date: Wed Jun 5, 2013 2:30 am ((PDT))
This text could highlight differences in phoneme inventory, and Alex could
concoct one, but no single text can cover all differences of phoneme
incidence (lexical distribution of phonemes), and on the whole one text is
as good as another for differences of phonetic realization. I guess a
carefully constructed text could in principle highlight differences in
phonotactics too, but in practice they are underresearched so one wouldn't
know what to include.
To the ear, at the level of auditory impression rather than careful (and in
fact theoretical) linguistic analysis, it's differences of phonetic
realization that are apparent.
And.
On Jun 5, 2013 2:04 AM, "Sai" <i...@s.ai> wrote:
> I would like to have a short piece of text that, when read verbatim,
> would maximally highlight the speaker's accents / dialectical
> differences � across *all* English speakers (L1 and L2).
>
> Ideally this should be a single sentence, but in any case no more than
> a paragraph. It shouldn't depend on vocabulary differences (I supply
> the text). Really ideally, with just a recording of someone reading
> this short text you should be able to determine where the person is
> from (linguistically) and have very good data for a voiceprint (i..e
> good enough to identify individuals).
>
> Suggestions?
>
> - Sai
>
Messages in this topic (5)
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4b. Re: What English text would maximally highlight accents?
Posted by: "Leonardo Castro" leolucas1...@gmail.com
Date: Wed Jun 5, 2013 2:49 am ((PDT))
Maybe one that contains examples of the mergers and splits showed in
these pages:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phonological_history_of_English_consonants
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phonological_history_of_English_vowels
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Splits_and_mergers_in_English_phonology
At� mais!
Leonardo
2013/6/4 Sai <i...@s.ai>:
> I would like to have a short piece of text that, when read verbatim,
> would maximally highlight the speaker's accents / dialectical
> differences � across *all* English speakers (L1 and L2).
>
> Ideally this should be a single sentence, but in any case no more than
> a paragraph. It shouldn't depend on vocabulary differences (I supply
> the text). Really ideally, with just a recording of someone reading
> this short text you should be able to determine where the person is
> from (linguistically) and have very good data for a voiceprint (i..e
> good enough to identify individuals).
>
> Suggestions?
>
> - Sai
Messages in this topic (5)
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4c. Re: What English text would maximally highlight accents?
Posted by: "Daniel Bowman" danny.c.bow...@gmail.com
Date: Wed Jun 5, 2013 5:42 am ((PDT))
In addition to a snippet of text, you may wish to include a name or
"nonsense word" that forces your speakers to puzzle out the pronunciation
from the orthography. Such a word would be English - like, and perhaps
include phonemes of particular interest to you. It would be interesting to
see if your speakers pronounced unknown words using the same accent as they
do known English words.
The "nonsense word" test is commonly used in cognitive assessment (such as
the Woodcock Johnson test, see item 13 here:
http://alpha.fdu.edu/psychology/woodcock_ach_descrip.htm ) to see how
subjects are able to translate from orthography to speech.
Here's an example of how it's used in education:
http://www.readingrockets.org/blog/20451/
2013/6/4 Sai <i...@s.ai>
> I would like to have a short piece of text that, when read verbatim,
> would maximally highlight the speaker's accents / dialectical
> differences � across *all* English speakers (L1 and L2).
>
> Ideally this should be a single sentence, but in any case no more than
> a paragraph. It shouldn't depend on vocabulary differences (I supply
> the text). Really ideally, with just a recording of someone reading
> this short text you should be able to determine where the person is
> from (linguistically) and have very good data for a voiceprint (i..e
> good enough to identify individuals).
>
> Suggestions?
>
> - Sai
>
Messages in this topic (5)
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