There are 15 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. Re: Sold here / for sale / on sale / on sale here
From: George Corley
1b. Re: Sold here / for sale / on sale / on sale here
From: Ian Spolarich
1c. Re: Sold here / for sale / on sale / on sale here
From: Douglas Koller
1d. Re: Sold here / for sale / on sale / on sale here
From: H. S. Teoh
1e. Re: Sold here / for sale / on sale / on sale here
From: taliesin the storyteller
2a. Re: nominal (or adjectival) predicates: how do you form them?
From: Anthony Miles
3a. 5 Awesome Languages (Somebody Made Up)
From: Garth Wallace
3b. Re: 5 Awesome Languages (Somebody Made Up)
From: MorphemeAddict
4.1. Re: "How do you say X (in LANGUAGE)?"
From: Anthony Miles
5a. Re: What English text would maximally highlight accents?
From: Sai
5b. Re: What English text would maximally highlight accents?
From: Leonardo Castro
5c. Re: What English text would maximally highlight accents?
From: Leonardo Castro
6.1. Re: Is Esperanto Indo-European?
From: Leonardo Castro
6.2. Re: Is Esperanto Indo-European?
From: Padraic Brown
6.3. Re: Is Esperanto Indo-European?
From: Leonardo Castro
Messages
________________________________________________________________________
1a. Re: Sold here / for sale / on sale / on sale here
Posted by: "George Corley" [email protected]
Date: Thu Jun 6, 2013 8:00 pm ((PDT))
On Thu, Jun 6, 2013 at 9:41 PM, Adam Walker <[email protected]> wrote:
> You might as well give it up Scott. Your question has become YAEUT,
> and there is little hope of dredging it baxk out of that hell once it
> has entered. No one will pay the slightest mind to your actual
> question now. They must all explore the minutiae of each and ever
> English dialect sopken by any list memeber and all colse friend and
> relatives out to the sixth degree of consanguinity. You might as well
> wait a few weeks for this thred to die and reformulate your question
> in another way in the hope that the next wording won't trigger an
> immediate YAE?T.
>
In an attempt to salvage this somewhat, I can't really comment too much on
the "for sale"/"on sale" distinction in other languages, but I do have an
interesting bit on how "sales" are presented differently in Mandarin.
Basically, two things (one of which is probably more cultural than
linguistic).
1) (The more cultural one)-- sales are presented with the fraction of the
price you pay (in understood tenths), rather than the percentage that is
taken off the price. So 打八折 (da3 ba1 zhe2) is literally "do 8 discount",
meaning that you pay only 80% of the full price, whereas in Anglophone
cultures we'd describe the same sale as "20% off".
2) A really minor note, "Buy one get one free" translates as 买一个送一个 (mai3
yi ge, song4 yi ge), lit. "buy one, give one" (different numeral
classifiers may apply, of course). It's interesting to me how this phrase
puts more focus on the vendor's agency in giving you a gift for buying
something, whereas the English phrase focuses entirely on the buyer's
actions.
Messages in this topic (12)
________________________________________________________________________
1b. Re: Sold here / for sale / on sale / on sale here
Posted by: "Ian Spolarich" [email protected]
Date: Thu Jun 6, 2013 8:09 pm ((PDT))
An for my conlang, I would think I could use something like "now selling"
or "now being sold" in the passive for this purpose:
to sell = larat-
now (adverb) = �or
now being sold = laratam �or
I imagine a shorter form, to roughly correspond to "for sale" or just
"sale" would be "laratam", essentially meaning "being sold". Interesting!
On 6 June 2013 21:41, Adam Walker <[email protected]> wrote:
> You might as well give it up Scott. Your question has become YAEUT,
> and there is little hope of dredging it baxk out of that hell once it
> has entered. No one will pay the slightest mind to your actual
> question now. They must all explore the minutiae of each and ever
> English dialect sopken by any list memeber and all colse friend and
> relatives out to the sixth degree of consanguinity. You might as well
> wait a few weeks for this thred to die and reformulate your question
> in another way in the hope that the next wording won't trigger an
> immediate YAE?T.
>
> Adam
>
> On 6/6/13, Scott Hlad <[email protected]> wrote:
> > I guess I should have been more specific:
> >
> > Sold here and on sale here = available for sale in this location
> > For sale = typically a sign for a private sale of something like a house
> or
> > a boat or car or a sale on someone else's behalf eg. Real estate sale
> etc.
> > On sale = available at a discounted price in a retail establishment
> >
> > s
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:[email protected]] On
> > Behalf Of David Peterson
> > Sent: Thursday, June 06, 2013 5:26 PM
> > To: [email protected]
> > Subject: Re: Sold here / for sale / on sale / on sale here
> >
> > Apparently so, because to get the reading that you have there you'd have
> to
> > say "I bought it because it was for sale". You *could* get that reading
> > with
> > "on sale", but the most salient reading would be that it was discounted.
> If
> > it was something that it was understood was not being sold regularly (for
> > example movies that are in the Disney vault), you could get the "for
> sale"
> > reading there, but in my idiolect, it's not the most salient
> > interpretation.
> >
> > David Peterson
> > LCS President
> > [email protected]
> > www.conlang.org
> >
> > On Jun 6, 2013, at 4:20 PM, Sam Stutter <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >> Just, very briefly, for me "on sale" means the same as "for sale". To
> say
> > that something is being sold at a reduced price I would have to say it
> was
> > "in a sale", "discounted" or some other circumlocution.
> >>
> >> Which has always made American TV a bit weird - when someone says "I
> > bought it because it was on sale" it sounds like "I bought it just
> because
> > it was there" or, dare I say it "YOLO". "I bought it because there was a
> > sale on / it was going cheap / etc" is what I _assume_ they actually
> mean.
> >>
> >> Maybe it's one of those rightpond-leftpond things.
> >>
> >> On 6 Jun 2013, at 11:46 PM, Scott Hlad <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>
> >>> I live in a diverse neighbourhood. If you walk along the main street
> >>> you can see signs in Mandarin, Viet Namese and Amharic. Everyday
> >>> walking from the bus I pass a sign at a halal grocery with an Amharic
> >>> sign that they have a product available that says, �Sold here.� One
> >>> could
> > also say �on sale here�
> >>> which at least in the version of English I speak is not the same as
> >>> �on sale� and again different from �for sale�.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> When I think about how that would work in a conlang, I try to
> >>> envision what part of speech the word �sold� is in �sold here�.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> In French if someone were using the �for sale� it would be �� vende�.
> >>> But how the other phrases would be in French, I have no idea.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> So how does this work in other natlangs and conlangs?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Scotto
> >
>
Messages in this topic (12)
________________________________________________________________________
1c. Re: Sold here / for sale / on sale / on sale here
Posted by: "Douglas Koller" [email protected]
Date: Thu Jun 6, 2013 9:33 pm ((PDT))
> Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2013 21:41:52 -0500
> From: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: Sold here / for sale / on sale / on sale here
> To: [email protected]
> You might as well give it up Scott. Your question has become YAEUT,
> and there is little hope of dredging it back out of that hell once it
> has entered. No one will pay the slightest mind to your actual
> question now.
> On 6/6/13, Scott Hlad <[email protected]> wrote:
> > I guess I should have been more specific:
> > Sold here and on sale here = available for sale in this location
> >>> When I think about how that would work in a conlang, I try to
> >>> envision what part of speech the word “sold” is in “sold here”.
The use of participles in Géarthnuns can lead to extremely long words, so I've
been playing with simple citation verb forms for telegraph/headline/sign
communication and seeing if I feel right with it.
"dínashath" would capture the imagery of putting things out in front of a store
to sell (not unlike 出售). It would be the last word of a declarative sentence,
anyway, so whether one interpreted that as active or passive wouldn't really
matter. "shathta", "dínashathta", in the hortative? Hmm. Getting warmer,
methinks ...
> > For sale = typically a sign for a private sale of something like a house or
> > a boat or car or a sale on someone else's behalf eg. Real estate sale etc.
Haven't thought about this one. Maybe something akin to "pwítezh", for "on
offer"?
> >>> In French if someone were using the “for sale” it would be “à vende”.
I'll assume a typo here? "à vendre颅"
> >>> But how the other phrases would be in French, I have no idea.
en vente (which is why I questioned above) -- en solde, for the discount
> > On sale = available at a discounted price in a retail establishment
This one's easy: chí shríalsín (DEF discount-INSTR) > From: [email protected]
> 1) (The more cultural one)-- sales are presented with the fraction of the
> price you pay (in understood tenths), rather than the percentage that is
> taken off the price. So 打八折 (da3 ba1 zhe2) is literally "do 8 discount",
> meaning that you pay only 80% of the full price, whereas in Anglophone
> cultures we'd describe the same sale as "20% off". For some reason, I
> initially found this as baffling as counting over 99,999 and as hard to get
> used to. Then the "aha" moment while doing something banal like shaving or
> mincing chives, and I was fine with it thereafter.
> 2) A really minor note, "Buy one get one free" translates as 买一个送一个 (mai3
> yi ge, song4 yi ge), lit. "buy one, give one" (different numeral
> classifiers may apply, of course). Bag the classifiers entirely. �I一送一 on
> signs.
Kou
Messages in this topic (12)
________________________________________________________________________
1d. Re: Sold here / for sale / on sale / on sale here
Posted by: "H. S. Teoh" [email protected]
Date: Thu Jun 6, 2013 10:17 pm ((PDT))
On Thu, Jun 06, 2013 at 10:00:52PM -0500, George Corley wrote:
> On Thu, Jun 6, 2013 at 9:41 PM, Adam Walker <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > You might as well give it up Scott. Your question has become YAEUT,
> > and there is little hope of dredging it baxk out of that hell once
> > it has entered. No one will pay the slightest mind to your actual
> > question now. They must all explore the minutiae of each and ever
> > English dialect sopken by any list memeber and all colse friend and
> > relatives out to the sixth degree of consanguinity. You might as
> > well wait a few weeks for this thred to die and reformulate your
> > question in another way in the hope that the next wording won't
> > trigger an immediate YAE?T.
> >
>
> In an attempt to salvage this somewhat, I can't really comment too
> much on the "for sale"/"on sale" distinction in other languages, but I
> do have an interesting bit on how "sales" are presented differently in
> Mandarin.
Well, that just adds a YAC?T to the mix. ;-)
But on a more serious note:
> Basically, two things (one of which is probably more cultural than
> linguistic).
>
> 1) (The more cultural one)-- sales are presented with the fraction of
> the price you pay (in understood tenths), rather than the percentage
> that is taken off the price. So 打八折 (da3 ba1 zhe2) is literally
> "do 8 discount", meaning that you pay only 80% of the full price,
> whereas in Anglophone cultures we'd describe the same sale as "20%
> off".
It's interesting that even this has regional differences. Where I came
from, we don't say _da3 zhe3_ (or at least it's rarer); the usual phrase
is _zian3 zia4_ (decreased price). (Sorry, I'm not 100% sure of the
transcription, I'm just writing phonetically -- my dialect of Mandarin
has collapsed some consonant distinctions so my transcription may be
off.) Variations include _zian3 ban4 zia4_ (decreased half price), i.e.,
50% of original price.
> 2) A really minor note, "Buy one get one free" translates as
> 买一个送一个 (mai3 yi ge, song4 yi ge), lit. "buy one, give one"
> (different numeral classifiers may apply, of course). It's
> interesting to me how this phrase puts more focus on the vendor's
> agency in giving you a gift for buying something, whereas the English
> phrase focuses entirely on the buyer's actions.
I would underscore that _song4_ has the effect of giving a *gift*,
whereas general giving would merely be _gei3_. One *could* say _mai3 yi
ge, gei3 yi ge_ "buy one, give one", but it doesn't sound quite as
appealing as _song4 yi ge_. The latter makes the prospective buyer feel
like they're getting a free gift, whereas the former doesn't quite
convey that feeling of eagerness.
A transliteration of the English might be _mai3 yi ge, de2 yi ge_ "buy
one, gain one", but _de2_ makes you feel like you have to earn it,
whereas _song4_ makes you feel we're giving you a special gift. Other
ways of transliterating include _mai3 yi ge, na2 yi ge_ "buy one, take
one" -- but that has the risk of being misinterpreted (or liberally
interpreted) as being able to pay for a $0.50 item and taking home the
$500 TV set on display -- a meaning that _song4_ doesn't permit, since
only the giver has the right to choose the gift. (And I kid you not, if
a shopkeeper were to actually put up a sign reading _mai3 yi ge, na2 yi
ge_, somebody *will* deliberately interpret it as a free-for-all. Civic
restraint is rather lacking in some ways in those parts, to our shame.)
T
--
A mathematician is a device for turning coffee into theorems. -- P. Erdos
Messages in this topic (12)
________________________________________________________________________
1e. Re: Sold here / for sale / on sale / on sale here
Posted by: "taliesin the storyteller" [email protected]
Date: Fri Jun 7, 2013 3:36 am ((PDT))
On 2013-06-07 07:15, H. S. Teoh wrote:
> On Thu, Jun 06, 2013 at 10:00:52PM -0500, George Corley wrote:
>> In an attempt to salvage this somewhat, I can't really comment too
>> much on the "for sale"/"on sale" distinction in other languages, /../
... but I can at least comment for my natlang. (AFMNL?)
Norwegian:
Something discounted is "p氓 salg".
Something that is posible to buy is "til salgs". I think the final 's'
is a frozen genitive. Ads in the newspapers for selling stuff often
start with "til salgs".
t.
Messages in this topic (12)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
2a. Re: nominal (or adjectival) predicates: how do you form them?
Posted by: "Anthony Miles" [email protected]
Date: Thu Jun 6, 2013 9:42 pm ((PDT))
i am interested in how your conlangs that put case endings on nouns make
nominal predicates (especially if you have a zero-copula!).
so, like, if you have to say "the X is a Y," "she is Z," do you have a
special way of doing that? even if your way is just to put the same case
ending on X and Y, and/or insert a word for "is," i'd still like to hear
about it, with examples.
R: In Siye, predicates use the equative case -pu.
leyake susumsuyampu ikimpukima.
leyake-0 susumsuyam-pu i-kim-pu-ki-ma
boy-ABS messenger-EQ 3-to.exist-SG-DIR.STATIONARY-IMPFV.POS.REALIS
The boy is the messenger.
Fortunatian, a Romlang, uses a simple copula - both in the nominative.
Tauryx do Chixauraxyx och rocyx xantyx.
tomb-NOM of Son.of.God-NOM to.be place-NOM holy-NOM
The tomb of the Son of God is a holy place
Na'gifi Fasu'xa has no case markings: the syntax is verb-predicate-noun. It
also has separate verbs for past, future, and present copulatives.
a'tkami a'ntuku gu'xufi.
to.be.FUT fickle.lover craftsman
The craftsman was a fickle lover.
Koha has a copula.
Ka vaha apa 'aka ha.
DEF water PST cold to.be
The water was cold.
Messages in this topic (12)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
3a. 5 Awesome Languages (Somebody Made Up)
Posted by: "Garth Wallace" [email protected]
Date: Thu Jun 6, 2013 9:45 pm ((PDT))
http://geeksmash.com/entertainment-news/5-awesome-languages-somebody-made-up763?utm_source=zergnet.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=zergnet_65137
Yes, it's one of those inescapable Internet list articles, and it's
really just a list of conlangs attached to major sci-fi/fantasy
properties, but hey, it's some positive notice for conlangs. It also
links to a TVTropes page:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ConLang
Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
3b. Re: 5 Awesome Languages (Somebody Made Up)
Posted by: "MorphemeAddict" [email protected]
Date: Fri Jun 7, 2013 12:49 am ((PDT))
Something about the names got me to wondering how many common language
names (or names I recognize readily) (in English) have just one syllable.
I immediately thought of French, but on looking further, found 15 more:
Basque, Czech, Cree, Dutch, Greek, Hmong, Khmer, Lao, Manx, Nivkh, Scots,
Sioux, Thai, Veps, and Welsh.
There are two or three dozen other, less well known languages that also
qualify, and probably many more that aren't on the list.
stevo
On Fri, Jun 7, 2013 at 12:45 AM, Garth Wallace <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> http://geeksmash.com/entertainment-news/5-awesome-languages-somebody-made-up763?utm_source=zergnet.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=zergnet_65137
>
> Yes, it's one of those inescapable Internet list articles, and it's
> really just a list of conlangs attached to major sci-fi/fantasy
> properties, but hey, it's some positive notice for conlangs. It also
> links to a TVTropes page:
> http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ConLang
>
Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
4.1. Re: "How do you say X (in LANGUAGE)?"
Posted by: "Anthony Miles" [email protected]
Date: Thu Jun 6, 2013 9:48 pm ((PDT))
In Siye, one says "How can I say X well?", because clearly if you use any other
language you aren't speaking well.
Palaki le X nimuku elesipuyammumo?
pala-ki le-0 X nimu-ku e-le-si-pu-yam-m(a)-umo
what-INS 1-NOM good-ADV 4-1-speak.IMPFV-SG-ABILITIVE-IMPFV.POS.REALIS-Q
Messages in this topic (48)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
5a. Re: What English text would maximally highlight accents?
Posted by: "Sai" [email protected]
Date: Fri Jun 7, 2013 12:28 am ((PDT))
Here are a few resources, via Alex:
http://www.dialectsarchive.com/comma-gets-a-cure
http://accent.gmu.edu/about.php#1
http://www.bl.uk/learning/langlit/sounds/regional-voices/phonological-variation/
http://sounds.bl.uk/Accents-and-dialects/Survey-of-English-dialects
- Sai
On Wed, Jun 5, 2013 at 5:42 AM, Daniel Bowman <[email protected]> wrote:
> In addition to a snippet of text, you may wish to include a name or
> "nonsense word" that forces your speakers to puzzle out the pronunciation
> from the orthography. Such a word would be English - like, and perhaps
> include phonemes of particular interest to you. It would be interesting to
> see if your speakers pronounced unknown words using the same accent as they
> do known English words.
>
> The "nonsense word" test is commonly used in cognitive assessment (such as
> the Woodcock Johnson test, see item 13 here:
> http://alpha.fdu.edu/psychology/woodcock_ach_descrip.htm ) to see how
> subjects are able to translate from orthography to speech.
> Here's an example of how it's used in education:
> http://www.readingrockets.org/blog/20451/
>
>
> 2013/6/4 Sai <[email protected]>
>
>> I would like to have a short piece of text that, when read verbatim,
>> would maximally highlight the speaker's accents / dialectical
>> differences ― across *all* English speakers (L1 and L2).
>>
>> Ideally this should be a single sentence, but in any case no more than
>> a paragraph. It shouldn't depend on vocabulary differences (I supply
>> the text). Really ideally, with just a recording of someone reading
>> this short text you should be able to determine where the person is
>> from (linguistically) and have very good data for a voiceprint (i..e
>> good enough to identify individuals).
>>
>> Suggestions?
>>
>> - Sai
>>
Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________
5b. Re: What English text would maximally highlight accents?
Posted by: "Leonardo Castro" [email protected]
Date: Fri Jun 7, 2013 3:03 am ((PDT))
Take a look at those sentences that include, each one, all phonemes
(each one just once) of a given English dialect:
http://www.xibalba.demon.co.uk/jbr/phono.html#s5
I have already tried to do the same for Portuguese, but the
vowel-consonant ratio is too low. If diphthongs and triphthongs are
considered individual vowels, then the vowel-consonant ratio becomes
too high.
Besides, I don't think considering diphthongs as single vowels work
for English but not for Brazilian Portuguese, because here any 2- or
3-combination of a intercalled close [i,u] and open [a,O,o,E,e] vowels
are possible di- or tri-phtongs. So, I guess that non-syllabic /i/ and
/u/ are better analyzed as /j/ and /w/ in this situation.
AFAIK, there are few languages where the distinction between
non-syllabic vowels and glide consonants is relevant.
At� mais!
Leonardo
2013/6/7 Sai <[email protected]>:
> Here are a few resources, via Alex:
>
> http://www.dialectsarchive.com/comma-gets-a-cure
> http://accent.gmu.edu/about.php#1
> http://www.bl.uk/learning/langlit/sounds/regional-voices/phonological-variation/
> http://sounds.bl.uk/Accents-and-dialects/Survey-of-English-dialects
>
> - Sai
>
> On Wed, Jun 5, 2013 at 5:42 AM, Daniel Bowman <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>> In addition to a snippet of text, you may wish to include a name or
>> "nonsense word" that forces your speakers to puzzle out the pronunciation
>> from the orthography. Such a word would be English - like, and perhaps
>> include phonemes of particular interest to you. It would be interesting to
>> see if your speakers pronounced unknown words using the same accent as they
>> do known English words.
>>
>> The "nonsense word" test is commonly used in cognitive assessment (such as
>> the Woodcock Johnson test, see item 13 here:
>> http://alpha.fdu.edu/psychology/woodcock_ach_descrip.htm ) to see how
>> subjects are able to translate from orthography to speech.
>> Here's an example of how it's used in education:
>> http://www.readingrockets.org/blog/20451/
>>
>>
>> 2013/6/4 Sai <[email protected]>
>>
>>> I would like to have a short piece of text that, when read verbatim,
>>> would maximally highlight the speaker's accents / dialectical
>>> differences � across *all* English speakers (L1 and L2).
>>>
>>> Ideally this should be a single sentence, but in any case no more than
>>> a paragraph. It shouldn't depend on vocabulary differences (I supply
>>> the text). Really ideally, with just a recording of someone reading
>>> this short text you should be able to determine where the person is
>>> from (linguistically) and have very good data for a voiceprint (i..e
>>> good enough to identify individuals).
>>>
>>> Suggestions?
>>>
>>> - Sai
>>>
Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________
5c. Re: What English text would maximally highlight accents?
Posted by: "Leonardo Castro" [email protected]
Date: Fri Jun 7, 2013 3:12 am ((PDT))
2013/6/7 Leonardo Castro <[email protected]>:
> Take a look at those sentences that include, each one, all phonemes
> each one just once of a given English dialect:
Sorry, I made a mistake! The part "each one just once" is not true for
all the examples there, but there is this one at least:
"Are those shy Eurasian footwear, cowboy chaps, or jolly earthmoving headgear?"
Justin B. Rye (for his own accent)
>
> http://www.xibalba.demon.co.uk/jbr/phono.html#s5
>
> I have already tried to do the same for Portuguese, but the
> vowel-consonant ratio is too low. If diphthongs and triphthongs are
> considered individual vowels, then the vowel-consonant ratio becomes
> too high.
>
> Besides, I don't think considering diphthongs as single vowels work
> for English but not for Brazilian Portuguese, because here any 2- or
> 3-combination of a intercalled close [i,u] and open [a,O,o,E,e] vowels
> are possible di- or tri-phtongs. So, I guess that non-syllabic /i/ and
> /u/ are better analyzed as /j/ and /w/ in this situation.
>
> AFAIK, there are few languages where the distinction between
> non-syllabic vowels and glide consonants is relevant.
>
>
> At� mais!
>
> Leonardo
>
>
> 2013/6/7 Sai <[email protected]>:
>> Here are a few resources, via Alex:
>>
>> http://www.dialectsarchive.com/comma-gets-a-cure
>> http://accent.gmu.edu/about.php#1
>> http://www.bl.uk/learning/langlit/sounds/regional-voices/phonological-variation/
>> http://sounds.bl.uk/Accents-and-dialects/Survey-of-English-dialects
>>
>> - Sai
>>
>> On Wed, Jun 5, 2013 at 5:42 AM, Daniel Bowman <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>> In addition to a snippet of text, you may wish to include a name or
>>> "nonsense word" that forces your speakers to puzzle out the pronunciation
>>> from the orthography. Such a word would be English - like, and perhaps
>>> include phonemes of particular interest to you. It would be interesting to
>>> see if your speakers pronounced unknown words using the same accent as they
>>> do known English words.
>>>
>>> The "nonsense word" test is commonly used in cognitive assessment (such as
>>> the Woodcock Johnson test, see item 13 here:
>>> http://alpha.fdu.edu/psychology/woodcock_ach_descrip.htm ) to see how
>>> subjects are able to translate from orthography to speech.
>>> Here's an example of how it's used in education:
>>> http://www.readingrockets.org/blog/20451/
>>>
>>>
>>> 2013/6/4 Sai <[email protected]>
>>>
>>>> I would like to have a short piece of text that, when read verbatim,
>>>> would maximally highlight the speaker's accents / dialectical
>>>> differences � across *all* English speakers (L1 and L2).
>>>>
>>>> Ideally this should be a single sentence, but in any case no more than
>>>> a paragraph. It shouldn't depend on vocabulary differences (I supply
>>>> the text). Really ideally, with just a recording of someone reading
>>>> this short text you should be able to determine where the person is
>>>> from (linguistically) and have very good data for a voiceprint (i..e
>>>> good enough to identify individuals).
>>>>
>>>> Suggestions?
>>>>
>>>> - Sai
>>>>
Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
6.1. Re: Is Esperanto Indo-European?
Posted by: "Leonardo Castro" [email protected]
Date: Fri Jun 7, 2013 2:42 am ((PDT))
2013/6/6 George Corley <[email protected]>:
> On Thu, Jun 6, 2013 at 10:52 AM, Leonardo Castro <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>> This issue must have some similarities with the use of human genetic
>> clustering to classify people into races. I have read that some
>> studies showed that most Ethiopian people "cluster" with Caucasians,
>> which means that they are more genetically similar to this group
>> (defined by "clustering" other peoples). So, if someone define races
>> using a strict tree model, Ethiopian is in the branch "White" because
>> they can't belong to two races in a tree model.
>>
>
> The idea that there is any biological basis for human races is largely
> debunked. About all that it's useful for is as a very rough proxy (i.e.
> things like blacks being more likely to have sickle-cell anemia because
> they tend to have ancestors from malaria-affected areas, though there's
> certainly no causal link between Negroid features and sickle-cell).
It could be interesting to verify which of the arguments of the paper
below could be applied to language:
http://www.nature.com/nrg/journal/v5/n8/abs/nrg1401.html
>
> On Thu, Jun 6, 2013 at 10:54 AM, Dustfinger Batailleur <
> [email protected]> wrote:
>
>> The problem with that is that humans have two ancestors, which allows the
>> mixing of lineages. Languages, too, can have a multitude of source
>> languages.
>
>
> I would only really consider things like creoles to have more than one
> parent language. If we were to compare language change to a biological
> model, it would map to the kind of evolution that occurred before thick
> cell membranes developed, when single-celled organisms freely swapped genes
> between each other, though they still reproduced asexually. Language is
> similar -- most languages descend from a single parent, but also borrow
> words and features from surrounding languages.
There's the wave theory where the single parent idea is abandoned:
http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2006/11/wave-theory/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wave_model
I wonder if there's some way of distinguishing between (1) a composite
of many innovation circles with one of them being much stronger than
the other and (2) a language family.
At� mais!
Leonardo
Messages in this topic (45)
________________________________________________________________________
6.2. Re: Is Esperanto Indo-European?
Posted by: "Padraic Brown" [email protected]
Date: Fri Jun 7, 2013 3:58 am ((PDT))
--- On Wed, 6/5/13, Olivier Simon <[email protected]> wrote:
> IE languages have two features which can be found among
> them, or at least traced back to PIE, though the presently
> spoken language only displays a few remnants of them.
> - Some kind of vocal alteration; the best known is the
> "ablaut" as in English "speak/spoke" or "foot/feet", but it
Foot/feet, I am fairly certain, is umlaut, not ablaut. Classic ablaut is
sing/sang/sung (and maybe song as well). Fotiz > fe:t > feet is pretty
clear i-umlaut.
> can be found elsewhere as in French "mourir/meurt". This
I'm pretty sure this is not ablaut either. Both come from the Latin root
mort-, which I don't think showed any kind of ablaut variation. The above
looks terribly suspicious of some other process. Perhaps borrowing from
some other Gallic language (Provencal, e.g.) or some weird French sound
change. That said, Latin itself does show some ablaut remnants as I
recall: cado ~ cecidi; pendo ~ pondus and the like. It could be that
Romance carries some of those over into the modern languages.
> Olivier
Padraic
Messages in this topic (45)
________________________________________________________________________
6.3. Re: Is Esperanto Indo-European?
Posted by: "Leonardo Castro" [email protected]
Date: Fri Jun 7, 2013 6:09 am ((PDT))
2013/6/6 Padraic Brown <[email protected]>:
>
> Syntax is a key, I think. What language family does this gem belong to? --
At a glance, apparently Indo-European and Romance, based on both
vocabulary and syntax.
Hmmm... I just googled for it and found what is it about (I'm not
going to spoil it here).
I wonder if a text with complete Romance vocabulary and Bantu syntax
would look Romance to us at a glance.
>
> Omni Gall es divided in tres parts, de quo il Belgas incollen un, in il ali
> l�Aquitanas, et in il terti esun illose quo esun appellad �Celtas� in sweir
> propri lingue et �Gallas� in nostra. Omni hise differren inter illemses in
> lingue, institutes et leges. Il Garuna flumen divides il Gallas del
> Aquitanas; il Matrona et Sequana dividen illem del Belgas. De omni hise, il
> fortest esun il Belgas ambicause illei esun longest de Provinciar culte et
> humanite; et mercators minim sepen commen ad illem, et importen illose res
> quo effeminen il anime; et illei esun proximest il Germans quo incollen
> accruce il Rhena, conquo illei esun contineli gerring belle. Ad quo cause, il
> Helvetias omnisi superceden il Gallas in virtute, ambicause illei contenden
> com il Germans in omnimost cotidianli prelles, quan illei quether repellen
> illem de su propri fines oth illemses gerren belle in sweir fines. Un part de
> hise, quo, id tens essed dicted, il Gallas incollen, caps
> ids inition ad il flumen Rhodana; id es fined cum il flumen Garuna, il
> oceane et il Belgas fines; id fines omnisi il Sequanas et il Helvetias in il
> flumen Rhena, et id verges ad il septentrion. Il Belgas oriren del extreme
> fines de Gallia, vergen ad il inferior part del flumen Rhena; et specten
> advert il septentrion et il orienting sol. Aquitania verges del flumen Garuna
> ad il Piranese monts, et ad ist part del ocean quo es proxime Hispania: id
> spects ambidu il occasing sol et il septrion stelle.
>
> Padraic
>
>
Messages in this topic (45)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/conlang/
<*> Your email settings:
Digest Email | Traditional
<*> To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/conlang/join
(Yahoo! ID required)
<*> To change settings via email:
[email protected]
[email protected]
<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]
<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
------------------------------------------------------------------------
