There are 15 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. Re: Ejective Consonants a sign of Mountain Living
From: Roman Rausch
1b. Re: Ejective Consonants a sign of Mountain Living
From: Matthew Boutilier
1c. Re: Ejective Consonants a sign of Mountain Living
From: Jörg Rhiemeier
1d. Re: Ejective Consonants a sign of Mountain Living
From: Eric Christopherson
1e. Re: Ejective Consonants a sign of Mountain Living
From: Anthony Miles
2a. Unveiling the new Gravgaln (was Graavgaaln)
From: Adam Walker
2b. Re: Unveiling the new Gravgaln (was Graavgaaln)
From: James Kane
2c. Re: Unveiling the new Gravgaln (was Graavgaaln)
From: Eric Christopherson
2d. Re: Unveiling the new Gravgaln (was Graavgaaln)
From: Eric Christopherson
2e. Re: Unveiling the new Gravgaln (was Graavgaaln)
From: Adam Walker
2f. Re: Unveiling the new Gravgaln (was Graavgaaln)
From: Adam Walker
2g. Re: Unveiling the new Gravgaln (was Graavgaaln)
From: Alex Fink
2h. Re: Unveiling the new Gravgaln (was Graavgaaln)
From: James Kane
3a. ablaut plus height harmony
From: neo gu
3b. Re: ablaut plus height harmony
From: Anthony Miles
Messages
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1a. Re: Ejective Consonants a sign of Mountain Living
Posted by: "Roman Rausch" [email protected]
Date: Fri Jun 14, 2013 7:26 am ((PDT))
>As far as ejective mountain dwellers, surely the Nepalese, living as they
>do in the Himalayas, ought to be ejecting their consonants all over the
>place?
And drink tea all the time because water is easier to boil? :-)
Looking at the WALS map for rare consonants
(http://wals.info/feature/19A?tg_format=map&v1=cfff&v2=d000&v3=cff0&v4=s00d&v5=cd00&v6=dd00&v7=sd00)
I noticed that interdental spirants seem to occur more often in languages
situated near coastlines: English, Greek, Albanian, Spanish, Icelandic for
Indo-European; but also Swahili, Aleut, Fijian; a cluster of languages near the
South China Sea, a cluster in Mexico, and so on.
If I come up with a tentative reason for how maritime climate or seafaring can
make you stick your tongue out, I can write a paper. :-)
Messages in this topic (17)
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1b. Re: Ejective Consonants a sign of Mountain Living
Posted by: "Matthew Boutilier" [email protected]
Date: Fri Jun 14, 2013 7:55 am ((PDT))
> Looking at the WALS map for rare consonants (
> http://wals.info/feature/19A?tg_format=map&v1=cfff&v2=d000&v3=cff0&v4=s00d&v5=cd00&v6=dd00&v7=sd00)
> I noticed that interdental spirants seem to occur more often in languages
> situated near coastlines: English, Greek, Albanian, Spanish, Icelandic for
> Indo-European; but also Swahili, Aleut, Fijian; a cluster of languages near
> the South China Sea, a cluster in Mexico, and so on.
> If I come up with a tentative reason for how maritime climate or seafaring
> can make you stick your tongue out, I can write a paper. :-)
>
perhaps the higher air pressure at sea level makes it easier to distinguish
e.g. /T/ from /f/ or /D/ from /v/ over longer distances. the sound has a
thicker medium to travel through and loses less of its phonetic
distinctiveness; which is why Cockney - a Germanic dialect that is no
longer spoken near a coast - has neutralized the T~f/D~v difference!
but in all seriousness, the claim that geography is *causally* related to
linguistic features strikes me as somewhat insane (or overly ambitious at
best). languages that use triconsonantal roots are disproportionately
located in *desert*; is there something deserty about speaking this kind of
language? i doubt it! (also, we know that Proto-Semitic had ejective
consonants, and that part of the world is quite flat.)
matt
Messages in this topic (17)
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1c. Re: Ejective Consonants a sign of Mountain Living
Posted by: "Jörg Rhiemeier" [email protected]
Date: Fri Jun 14, 2013 8:47 am ((PDT))
Hallo conlangers!
On Friday 14 June 2013 02:54:17 Herman Miller wrote:
> [...]
>
> "The researchers, however, found that 87 per cent of languages that use
> ejectives were found within 300 miles of an area of high altitude."
> Which implies that 13 percent of languages with ejectives were found
> more than 300 miles away from high altitude areas.
>
> It's an interesting idea, associating phonological features with
> geography. Even if it turns out to be coincidental, a conworld could use
> some idea like this for the languages spoken in different areas. But why
> would high altitude be associated with ejectives? More efficient use of
> breath?
Most proper linguists consider such correlations of linguistic
features with terrain types, climate zones or similar factors
insignificant. But indeed, in a conworld, there may be patterns
of that kind. In my Hesperic family, I have decided that the
more northerly languages have larger phoneme inventories than
those spoken in the south, which somehow feels "right" to me
but probably is not well-supported by real-world linguistic data,
at least not in Europe where the Hesperic languages are spoken.
--
... brought to you by the Weeping Elf
http://www.joerg-rhiemeier.de/Conlang/index.html
"Bêsel asa Éam, a Éam atha cvanthal a cvanth atha Éamal." - SiM 1:1
Messages in this topic (17)
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1d. Re: Ejective Consonants a sign of Mountain Living
Posted by: "Eric Christopherson" [email protected]
Date: Fri Jun 14, 2013 4:23 pm ((PDT))
On Jun 14, 2013, at 10:46 AM, Jörg Rhiemeier <[email protected]> wrote:
> Hallo conlangers!
>
> On Friday 14 June 2013 02:54:17 Herman Miller wrote:
>
>> [...]
>>
>> "The researchers, however, found that 87 per cent of languages that use
>> ejectives were found within 300 miles of an area of high altitude."
>> Which implies that 13 percent of languages with ejectives were found
>> more than 300 miles away from high altitude areas.
>>
>> It's an interesting idea, associating phonological features with
>> geography. Even if it turns out to be coincidental, a conworld could use
>> some idea like this for the languages spoken in different areas. But why
>> would high altitude be associated with ejectives? More efficient use of
>> breath?
>
> Most proper linguists consider such correlations of linguistic
> features with terrain types, climate zones or similar factors
> insignificant. But indeed, in a conworld, there may be patterns
> of that kind. In my Hesperic family, I have decided that the
> more northerly languages have larger phoneme inventories than
> those spoken in the south, which somehow feels "right" to me
> but probably is not well-supported by real-world linguistic data,
> at least not in Europe where the Hesperic languages are spoken.
That reminds me of the controversial paper "Phonemic Diversity Supports a
Serial Founder Effect Model of Language Expansion from Africa" by Atkinson (who
was recently discussed in connection with the paper about "hyper-conserved"
lexemes); but his claim was that phoneme inventory size *decreases* with
distance from Africa.
Another folk phonetics claim I've read somewhere was that a far northern
variety or family in NA (I think it was Aleut maybe) lacks labials because its
speakers often used to put labrets in their lower lips. I don't remember the
exact details but I think Aleut does have /m/ at least.
On the other hand, I have a lot of trouble pronouncing labial stops (and IIRC
/m/) when I've been in the cold for a while. In such cases I can't quite make
lip closure so it comes out more fricative-like.
Messages in this topic (17)
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1e. Re: Ejective Consonants a sign of Mountain Living
Posted by: "Anthony Miles" [email protected]
Date: Fri Jun 14, 2013 5:43 pm ((PDT))
Rhea Silvia on Ceres is 22 miles high - I bet Rheasilvians speak in nothing but
ejectives!
Messages in this topic (17)
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2a. Unveiling the new Gravgaln (was Graavgaaln)
Posted by: "Adam Walker" [email protected]
Date: Fri Jun 14, 2013 9:55 am ((PDT))
Here below is my draft translation of the Babel text into the new and
(IMHO) vastly improved Gravgaln. I've done an interlinear, but I can't say
that it's up to Leipzig standards. I'[m very open to questions,
suggestions and corrections. Adam
Bboeneugh.
Bboe-neugh
IND.COMP-happen
It happened.
Êrthskleuv nivkh bbohhostoch' dlólzblîng vrra lî yéshblîngîn huegh.
Êrth-skleuv nivkh bbo-hhost-och' dlólz-blîng vrra lî yésh-blîng-în huegh.
Earth-PAT all IND.COMP-speak-3.DISTPAST language.ORN one and word.ORN.PLsame
All Earth spoke one language and the same words.
Bboenuegh.
Bboenuegh
IND.COMP-happen
It happened.
Hyumênmas strréhliuvñukquech' veulzhj'ê
Hyumên-mas s-trré-hliuv-ñuk-que-ch' veulzh-j'ê
human-AGT IND.PROG-meanderingly-go-away.from-during-3.DISTPAST east-LOC
The humans during their long journey out from the east
bboekêřhatsazhaghch' Shinarhj'ê ku khelkj'ê
bboe-kêř-hats-zhagh-ch' Shinarh-j'ê ku khelk-j'ê
IND.COMP-find-within-toward.them-3.DISTPAST Shinar-LOC of valley-LOC
they found a valley in Shinar
zheg bbosléuphatszemch' yûch' zheg.
zheg bbo-sléup-hats-zem-ch' yûch' zheg
and IDN.COMP-stay-within-together-3.DISTPAST yon and
and they settled there.
Lzammasîn bboghovqgaśch' hwekhtskleuvîn,
Lzam-mas-în bbo-ghov-qgaś-ch' hwekht-skleuv-în
Person-AGT-PL IND.COMP-say-RECIP-3DISTPAST comrade-PAT-PL
The people said each to his comrade,
“Jha! Dluevzemq kachavskleuvîn zheg rvazhzhehlq kachavholpîn gronskleuv
zheg.”
jha 0-dluev-zem-q kachav-skleuv-în zheg 0-rvazh-zhehl-q kachav-holp-în
gron-skleuv zheg
yo IMP-make-together-1PRES brick-PAT-PL and IMP-burn-into-1PRES
brick-BEN-PL strength-PAT and
“Yo! Let us make bricks and let us burn strength into them.”
Lzammasîn bbodd'angch' kachavskleuvîn khlaqśangîn zheg jopskleuv smeqśang
zheg.
Lzam-mas-în bbo-dd'ang-ch' kachav-skleuv-în khlaq-śang-în zheg jop-skleuv
smeq-śang zheg
person-AGT-PL IND.COMP-use-3DISTPAST brick-PAT-PL stone-EQU-PL and tar-PAT
mortar-EQU and
The people used brick for stone and tar for mortar.
Lzammasîn bboghovqgaśch',
Lzam-mas-în bbo-ghov-qgaś-ch'
person-PAT_PL IND.COMP-say-RECIP-3DISTPAST
The people said to each other,
“Jha! Mongvzaq zdrêngskleuv lî hlonzhskleuv dzagblîng ngudj'ê.
Jha! 0-Mong-vza-q zdrêng-skleuv lî hlonzh-skleuv dzag-blîng ngud-j'ê.
Yo! IMP-build-up-1PRES city-PAT and tower-PAT top-ORN sky-LOC
“Yo! Let us build up a city and a tower with its top in the sky.
Lzammasîn llórkhmôq khroltskleuv lzamblîngîn
Lzam-mas-în 0-llórkh-mô-q khrolt-skleuv lzam-blîng-în
person-AGT-PL IMP-be.hard-CAUS-1PRES name-PAT person-ORN-PL
People, let us harden our name for us,
ka tlashkhiuhliuvkróeshshkitrhovoñ nivkh Êrthholp nezh dzaghj'ê.”
ka tla-shkhiu-hliuv-króesh-shkit-rhov-oñ nivkh Êrth-holp nezh dzagh-j'ê
so.that 3rdNEG-CONTR.INCEPT-go-CAUS-every.which.way-away.from-1FUT all
earth-BEN of top-LOC
so that there is absolutely no way we can be forced to scatter on all the
face of the earth.
Nivqrharghmas dzazgrazhhliuvch' skimmék zdrêngbrall lî hlonzhbrall
Nivqrhargh-mas dza-zgrazh-hliuv-ch' skim-mék zdrêng-brall lî hlonzh-brall
Allstrong-AGT IND.PUNCT-come-down-3DISTPAST see-REAS city-ANTIBEN and
tower-ANTIBEN
The Almighty descended to see the city and tower
bhu bbomongch' Hyumênmas ku zhéungîn.
bhu bbo-mong-ch' Hyumên-mas ku zhéung-în.
which IND.COMP-build-3DISTPAST human-AGT of son-PL
which the son of humanity had built.
Nivqrharghmas bboghovch',
Nivqrhargh-mas bbo-ghov-ch'
Allstrong-AGT IND.COMP-say-3DISTPAST
The Almighty said,
“Jha! Lzammasîn hhavrrakezhzhaghaqg
Jha! Lzam-mas-în hha-vrra-kezh-zhagh-aqg
Yo! person-AGT-PL IND.GNOM-one-REFLX-toward-3PRES
“Yo! They are united,
zheg dlólzmas hhavrrakezhzhaghaqg zheg ka łuich' dd'askllêgêqg zheg.
zheg dlólz-mas hha-vrra-kezh-zhagh-aqg zheg ka łuich' dd'a-sk-llêg-êqg zheg
and language-AGT IND.GNOM-one-toward-3PRES and so.that right.here
AFFIRM-IND.INCEP-start-3PRES and
and their language is united so *this* is what they start doing.
Rvalt lzamskleuvîn nékhkot'oqzhagharr mefholp
Rvalt lzam-skleuv-în né-khko-t'oq-zhagh-arr mef-holp
now person-PAT-PL NEG-IND.ITTER-overtax-toward-3FUT anything-BEN
Now nothing will be to much for them
bhu lzammasîn skômongzhagharr tselkholp.
bhu lzam-mas-în skô-mong-zhagh-arr tselk-holp
which person-PAT-PL IND.INCEP-build-toward-3FUT idea-BEN
which they dream up. (literally: which idea they build for themselves)
Jha! Hliuvhleuvq nga lihlźyakhañ róch' lzamharmîn ku dlólzskleuv
Jha! 0-Hliuv-hleuv-q nga 0-lihl-źyakh-añ róch' lzam-harm-în ku dlólz-skleuv
Yo! IMP-go-down-1PRES and IMP-willy.nilly-mix-1FUT yon person-ANTIBEN-PL of
language-PAT
Yo! Let us go down there and scramble their language,
ka lzamskleuvîn théuqollqgaśzhagarr hwekhtharm ku dlólzblîng.”
ka lzam-skleuv-în théu-qoll-qgaś-zhag-arr hwekht-harm ku dlólz-blîng
so.that person-PAT-PL CONT.PROG-understand-RECIP-toward-3FUT
comrade-ANTIBEN of language-ORN
so that the people won't be understanding each other's comrade's language.”
Nivqrharghmas slihlhliuvgroenshkitrhovch' lzamskleuvîn Êrthj'ê
Nivqrhargh-mas s-lihl-hliuv-groen-shkit-rhov-ch' lzam-skleuv-în Êrth-j'ê
Allstrong-AGT PROG-willy.nilly-mix-CAUS-every.which.way-away.from-3DISTPAST
person-PAT-PL earth-LOC
The Almighty scattered the people every which way all over the earth
zheg lzamskleuvîn nédzamongch' zdrêngharm zheg.
zheg lzam-skleuv-în né-dza-mong-ch' zdrêng-harm zheg
and person-PAT-PL NEG-IND.PUNCT-build-3DISTPAST city-ANTIBEN and
and the people immediately stopped building the city.
Ka khroltskleuv Babelśang
Ka khrolt-skleuv Babel-śang
so-that name-PAT Babel-EQU
So its name was Babel
guell Nivqrharghmas róch' bboelihlźyakhch' dlólzskleuv ku nivkh Êrthharm
guell Nivqrhargh-mas róch' bboe-lihl-źyakh-ch' dlólz-skleuv ku nivkh Ê
rth-harm
because Allstrong-AGT yon IND.COMP-willy.nilly-mix-3DISTPAST language-PAT
of all earth-ANTIBEN
because there the Almighty scrambeled the language of all the earth
zheg Nivqrharghmas róch'rhov bboelihlhliuvgroenshkitrhovch'
zheg Nivqrhargh-mas róch'-rhov bboe-lihl-hliuv-groen-shkit-rhov-ch'
and Allstrong-AGT yon-LOC
IND.COMP-willy.nilly-go-CAUS-every.which.way-away.from-3DISTPAST
and in yon place the Almighty scattered every which way
lzamskleuvîn nivkh Êrthj'ê zheg.
lzam-skleuv-în nivkh Êrth-j'ê zheg
person-PAT-PL all earth-LOC and
the people over all the earth.
Messages in this topic (8)
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2b. Re: Unveiling the new Gravgaln (was Graavgaaln)
Posted by: "James Kane" [email protected]
Date: Fri Jun 14, 2013 2:26 pm ((PDT))
Is there a guide to pronunciation somewhere? There are an awful lot of digraphs
:) Looks good though!
James
On 15/06/2013, at 4:55 AM, Adam Walker <[email protected]> wrote:
> Here below is my draft translation of the Babel text into the new and
> (IMHO) vastly improved Gravgaln. I've done an interlinear, but I can't say
> that it's up to Leipzig standards. I'[m very open to questions,
> suggestions and corrections. Adam
>
> Bboeneugh.
>
> Bboe-neugh
>
> IND.COMP-happen
>
> It happened.
>
>
> Êrthskleuv nivkh bbohhostoch' dlólzblîng vrra lî yéshblîngîn huegh.
>
> Êrth-skleuv nivkh bbo-hhost-och' dlólz-blîng vrra lî yésh-blîng-în huegh.
>
> Earth-PAT all IND.COMP-speak-3.DISTPAST language.ORN one and word.ORN.PLsame
>
> All Earth spoke one language and the same words.
>
>
> Bboenuegh.
>
> Bboenuegh
>
> IND.COMP-happen
>
> It happened.
>
>
> Hyumênmas strréhliuvñukquech' veulzhj'ê
>
> Hyumên-mas s-trré-hliuv-ñuk-que-ch' veulzh-j'ê
>
> human-AGT IND.PROG-meanderingly-go-away.from-during-3.DISTPAST east-LOC
>
> The humans during their long journey out from the east
>
>
> bboekêřhatsazhaghch' Shinarhj'ê ku khelkj'ê
>
> bboe-kêř-hats-zhagh-ch' Shinarh-j'ê ku khelk-j'ê
>
> IND.COMP-find-within-toward.them-3.DISTPAST Shinar-LOC of valley-LOC
>
> they found a valley in Shinar
>
>
> zheg bbosléuphatszemch' yûch' zheg.
>
> zheg bbo-sléup-hats-zem-ch' yûch' zheg
>
> and IDN.COMP-stay-within-together-3.DISTPAST yon and
>
> and they settled there.
>
>
> Lzammasîn bboghovqgaśch' hwekhtskleuvîn,
>
> Lzam-mas-în bbo-ghov-qgaś-ch' hwekht-skleuv-în
>
> Person-AGT-PL IND.COMP-say-RECIP-3DISTPAST comrade-PAT-PL
>
> The people said each to his comrade,
>
>
> “Jha! Dluevzemq kachavskleuvîn zheg rvazhzhehlq kachavholpîn gronskleuv
> zheg.”
>
> jha 0-dluev-zem-q kachav-skleuv-în zheg 0-rvazh-zhehl-q kachav-holp-în
> gron-skleuv zheg
>
> yo IMP-make-together-1PRES brick-PAT-PL and IMP-burn-into-1PRES
> brick-BEN-PL strength-PAT and
>
> “Yo! Let us make bricks and let us burn strength into them.”
>
>
> Lzammasîn bbodd'angch' kachavskleuvîn khlaqśangîn zheg jopskleuv smeqśang
> zheg.
>
> Lzam-mas-în bbo-dd'ang-ch' kachav-skleuv-în khlaq-śang-în zheg jop-skleuv
> smeq-śang zheg
>
> person-AGT-PL IND.COMP-use-3DISTPAST brick-PAT-PL stone-EQU-PL and tar-PAT
> mortar-EQU and
>
> The people used brick for stone and tar for mortar.
>
>
> Lzammasîn bboghovqgaśch',
>
> Lzam-mas-în bbo-ghov-qgaś-ch'
>
> person-PAT_PL IND.COMP-say-RECIP-3DISTPAST
>
> The people said to each other,
>
>
> “Jha! Mongvzaq zdrêngskleuv lî hlonzhskleuv dzagblîng ngudj'ê.
>
> Jha! 0-Mong-vza-q zdrêng-skleuv lî hlonzh-skleuv dzag-blîng ngud-j'ê.
>
> Yo! IMP-build-up-1PRES city-PAT and tower-PAT top-ORN sky-LOC
>
> “Yo! Let us build up a city and a tower with its top in the sky.
>
>
> Lzammasîn llórkhmôq khroltskleuv lzamblîngîn
>
> Lzam-mas-în 0-llórkh-mô-q khrolt-skleuv lzam-blîng-în
>
> person-AGT-PL IMP-be.hard-CAUS-1PRES name-PAT person-ORN-PL
>
> People, let us harden our name for us,
>
>
> ka tlashkhiuhliuvkróeshshkitrhovoñ nivkh Êrthholp nezh dzaghj'ê.”
>
> ka tla-shkhiu-hliuv-króesh-shkit-rhov-oñ nivkh Êrth-holp nezh dzagh-j'ê
>
> so.that 3rdNEG-CONTR.INCEPT-go-CAUS-every.which.way-away.from-1FUT all
> earth-BEN of top-LOC
>
> so that there is absolutely no way we can be forced to scatter on all the
> face of the earth.
>
>
> Nivqrharghmas dzazgrazhhliuvch' skimmék zdrêngbrall lî hlonzhbrall
>
> Nivqrhargh-mas dza-zgrazh-hliuv-ch' skim-mék zdrêng-brall lî hlonzh-brall
>
> Allstrong-AGT IND.PUNCT-come-down-3DISTPAST see-REAS city-ANTIBEN and
> tower-ANTIBEN
>
> The Almighty descended to see the city and tower
>
>
>
>
> bhu bbomongch' Hyumênmas ku zhéungîn.
>
> bhu bbo-mong-ch' Hyumên-mas ku zhéung-în.
>
> which IND.COMP-build-3DISTPAST human-AGT of son-PL
>
> which the son of humanity had built.
>
>
> Nivqrharghmas bboghovch',
>
> Nivqrhargh-mas bbo-ghov-ch'
>
> Allstrong-AGT IND.COMP-say-3DISTPAST
>
> The Almighty said,
>
>
> “Jha! Lzammasîn hhavrrakezhzhaghaqg
>
> Jha! Lzam-mas-în hha-vrra-kezh-zhagh-aqg
>
> Yo! person-AGT-PL IND.GNOM-one-REFLX-toward-3PRES
>
> “Yo! They are united,
>
>
> zheg dlólzmas hhavrrakezhzhaghaqg zheg ka łuich' dd'askllêgêqg zheg.
>
> zheg dlólz-mas hha-vrra-kezh-zhagh-aqg zheg ka łuich' dd'a-sk-llêg-êqg zheg
>
> and language-AGT IND.GNOM-one-toward-3PRES and so.that right.here
> AFFIRM-IND.INCEP-start-3PRES and
>
> and their language is united so *this* is what they start doing.
>
>
> Rvalt lzamskleuvîn nékhkot'oqzhagharr mefholp
>
> Rvalt lzam-skleuv-în né-khko-t'oq-zhagh-arr mef-holp
>
> now person-PAT-PL NEG-IND.ITTER-overtax-toward-3FUT anything-BEN
>
> Now nothing will be to much for them
>
> bhu lzammasîn skômongzhagharr tselkholp.
>
> bhu lzam-mas-în skô-mong-zhagh-arr tselk-holp
>
> which person-PAT-PL IND.INCEP-build-toward-3FUT idea-BEN
>
> which they dream up. (literally: which idea they build for themselves)
>
>
> Jha! Hliuvhleuvq nga lihlźyakhañ róch' lzamharmîn ku dlólzskleuv
>
> Jha! 0-Hliuv-hleuv-q nga 0-lihl-źyakh-añ róch' lzam-harm-în ku dlólz-skleuv
>
> Yo! IMP-go-down-1PRES and IMP-willy.nilly-mix-1FUT yon person-ANTIBEN-PL of
> language-PAT
>
> Yo! Let us go down there and scramble their language,
>
>
> ka lzamskleuvîn théuqollqgaśzhagarr hwekhtharm ku dlólzblîng.”
>
> ka lzam-skleuv-în théu-qoll-qgaś-zhag-arr hwekht-harm ku dlólz-blîng
>
> so.that person-PAT-PL CONT.PROG-understand-RECIP-toward-3FUT
> comrade-ANTIBEN of language-ORN
>
> so that the people won't be understanding each other's comrade's language.”
>
>
> Nivqrharghmas slihlhliuvgroenshkitrhovch' lzamskleuvîn Êrthj'ê
>
> Nivqrhargh-mas s-lihl-hliuv-groen-shkit-rhov-ch' lzam-skleuv-în Êrth-j'ê
>
> Allstrong-AGT PROG-willy.nilly-mix-CAUS-every.which.way-away.from-3DISTPAST
> person-PAT-PL earth-LOC
>
> The Almighty scattered the people every which way all over the earth
>
>
> zheg lzamskleuvîn nédzamongch' zdrêngharm zheg.
>
> zheg lzam-skleuv-în né-dza-mong-ch' zdrêng-harm zheg
>
> and person-PAT-PL NEG-IND.PUNCT-build-3DISTPAST city-ANTIBEN and
>
> and the people immediately stopped building the city.
>
>
> Ka khroltskleuv Babelśang
>
> Ka khrolt-skleuv Babel-śang
>
> so-that name-PAT Babel-EQU
>
> So its name was Babel
>
>
> guell Nivqrharghmas róch' bboelihlźyakhch' dlólzskleuv ku nivkh Êrthharm
>
> guell Nivqrhargh-mas róch' bboe-lihl-źyakh-ch' dlólz-skleuv ku nivkh Ê
> rth-harm
>
> because Allstrong-AGT yon IND.COMP-willy.nilly-mix-3DISTPAST language-PAT
> of all earth-ANTIBEN
>
> because there the Almighty scrambeled the language of all the earth
>
>
> zheg Nivqrharghmas róch'rhov bboelihlhliuvgroenshkitrhovch'
>
> zheg Nivqrhargh-mas róch'-rhov bboe-lihl-hliuv-groen-shkit-rhov-ch'
>
> and Allstrong-AGT yon-LOC
> IND.COMP-willy.nilly-go-CAUS-every.which.way-away.from-3DISTPAST
>
> and in yon place the Almighty scattered every which way
>
>
> lzamskleuvîn nivkh Êrthj'ê zheg.
>
> lzam-skleuv-în nivkh Êrth-j'ê zheg
>
> person-PAT-PL all earth-LOC and
>
> the people over all the earth.
Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________
2c. Re: Unveiling the new Gravgaln (was Graavgaaln)
Posted by: "Eric Christopherson" [email protected]
Date: Fri Jun 14, 2013 3:32 pm ((PDT))
On Jun 14, 2013, at 11:55 AM, Adam Walker <[email protected]> wrote:
> Here below is my draft translation of the Babel text into the new and
> (IMHO) vastly improved Gravgaln. I've done an interlinear, but I can't say
> that it's up to Leipzig standards. I'[m very open to questions,
> suggestions and corrections. Adam
Very nice!
[...]
> Êrthskleuv nivkh bbohhostoch' dlólzblîng vrra lî yéshblîngîn huegh.
>
> Êrth-skleuv nivkh bbo-hhost-och' dlólz-blîng vrra lî yésh-blîng-în huegh.
>
> Earth-PAT all IND.COMP-speak-3.DISTPAST language.ORN one and word.ORN.PLsame
>
> All Earth spoke one language and the same words.
Nice cross-language pun on the ornative.
I see a borrowing in the word for Earth...
[...]
> Hyumênmas strréhliuvñukquech' veulzhj'ê
>
> Hyumên-mas s-trré-hliuv-ñuk-que-ch' veulzh-j'ê
>
> human-AGT IND.PROG-meanderingly-go-away.from-during-3.DISTPAST east-LOC
>
> The humans during their long journey out from the east
And the word for "human" :)
[...]
> “Jha! Dluevzemq kachavskleuvîn zheg rvazhzhehlq kachavholpîn gronskleuv
> zheg.”
>
> jha 0-dluev-zem-q kachav-skleuv-în zheg 0-rvazh-zhehl-q kachav-holp-în
> gron-skleuv zheg
>
> yo IMP-make-together-1PRES brick-PAT-PL and IMP-burn-into-1PRES
> brick-BEN-PL strength-PAT and
>
> “Yo! Let us make bricks and let us burn strength into them.”
[...]
> bhu lzammasîn skômongzhagharr tselkholp.
>
> bhu lzam-mas-în skô-mong-zhagh-arr tselk-holp
>
> which person-PAT-PL IND.INCEP-build-toward-3FUT idea-BEN
>
> which they dream up. (literally: which idea they build for themselves)
>
>
> Jha! Hliuvhleuvq nga lihlźyakhañ róch' lzamharmîn ku dlólzskleuv
>
> Jha! 0-Hliuv-hleuv-q nga 0-lihl-źyakh-añ róch' lzam-harm-în ku dlólz-skleuv
>
> Yo! IMP-go-down-1PRES and IMP-willy.nilly-mix-1FUT yon person-ANTIBEN-PL of
> language-PAT
More puns for antibenefactive, and maybe benefactive. Nice.
Is there a difference between the benefactive morphemes <-harm> and <-brall>,
as in the following?
> Nivqrharghmas dzazgrazhhliuvch' skimmék zdrêngbrall lî hlonzhbrall
>
> Nivqrhargh-mas dza-zgrazh-hliuv-ch' skim-mék zdrêng-brall lî hlonzh-brall
>
> Allstrong-AGT IND.PUNCT-come-down-3DISTPAST see-REAS city-ANTIBEN and
> tower-ANTIBEN
>
> The Almighty descended to see the city and tower
On the subject of pun words in conlangs, I'm usually pretty strict about not
allowing conlang words to be too similar to natlang ones if they mean similar
things (or even if they mean different things but there's too much of a match
in sound and/or orthography), unless that's actually justified in the
backstory; but I keep toying with making a language with some common words
inspired by Internet abbreviations. E.g.:
'aka "or" (preferably the "viz." type of or; but I could live with
it with the "choice between alternatives" meaning)
'imho or im'ho or (preferably) 'imo particle used to soften a
statement, especially when stating an opinion
o'to alternately; then again; now that I think about it; on the
other hand; OR contrariwise
Those three are my favorite, and would work very nicely in a CV(CV(CV...))
language (unless one insisted on the /h/ in /imho/, which I don't). Other
possibilities might be:
@'feik; a'jui particle used to soften a statement, like imho/imo; but more
used in statements of (perceived) facts
'fnar aspect/aktionsart marker of spontaneous/unpredictable activity
And of course:
'lal interjection indicating something is amusing
Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________
2d. Re: Unveiling the new Gravgaln (was Graavgaaln)
Posted by: "Eric Christopherson" [email protected]
Date: Fri Jun 14, 2013 3:34 pm ((PDT))
On Jun 14, 2013, at 11:55 AM, Adam Walker <[email protected]> wrote:
> Here below is my draft translation of the Babel text into the new and
> (IMHO) vastly improved Gravgaln. I've done an interlinear, but I can't say
> that it's up to Leipzig standards. I'[m very open to questions,
> suggestions and corrections. Adam
Oh, I almost forget (well actually I did forget):
[...]
> Êrthskleuv nivkh bbohhostoch' dlólzblîng vrra lî yéshblîngîn huegh.
>
> Êrth-skleuv nivkh bbo-hhost-och' dlólz-blîng vrra lî yésh-blîng-în huegh.
>
> Earth-PAT all IND.COMP-speak-3.DISTPAST language.ORN one and word.ORN.PLsame
>
> All Earth spoke one language and the same words.
Is the word <nivkh> a total coincidence, or was it inspired by the real-world
people? (Obviously the semantics don't match in this case.)
Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________
2e. Re: Unveiling the new Gravgaln (was Graavgaaln)
Posted by: "Adam Walker" [email protected]
Date: Fri Jun 14, 2013 3:48 pm ((PDT))
On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 4:11 PM, James Kane <[email protected]> wrote:
> Is there a guide to pronunciation somewhere? There are an awful lot of
> digraphs :) Looks good though!
>
>
> James
>
>
Okay, just remember, you asked for it!
Vowels
i /i/
é /e/
e /ɛ / or /æ /
î /ɨ /
ê /ə /
a /ɐ /
ue /ɯ /
óe /ɤ /
oe /ɑ /
iu /y/
éu /ø /
eu/œ / or /ɶ /
û /ʉ /
ô /ɵ /
u /u/
ó /o/
o /ɒ /
Consonants
p /pʰ /
bb /bʱ /
b /b/
t /tʰ /
dd /dʱ /
d /d/
t' / ʈ ʰ /
dd' /ɖ ʱ /
d' / ɖ /
k /kʰ /
gg /gʱ /
g /g/
q /qʰ /
qgg / ɢ ʱ /
qg /ɢ /
ph /ɸ /
bh /β /
f /f/
v /v/
th /θ /
dh /ð /
s /s/
z /z/
sh /ʃ /
zh /ʒ /
sh' /ʂ /
zh' /ʐ /
ś /ɕ /
ź /ʑ /
kh /x/
gh /ɣ /
hh /ħ /
gh /ʕ /
h /h/
pf /pf͡ /
bv /bv͡ /
ts /t͡s /
dz /dz͡ /
ch /t͡ʃ /
j /d͡ʒ /
ch' /ʈʂ͡ /
j' /ɖʐ͡ /
m /m/
n /n/
ñ /ɲ /
ng /ŋ /
l /l/
ł /ʎ /
ll /ʟ /
hl /ɬ /
lz /ɮ /
tl /tɬ͡ /
dl /d͡ɮ/
r /ɹ /
rr /r/
hr /ʁ / or /ʀ /
ř /r͡ʒ /
rv /ɹʋ͡ /
y /j/
w /w/
hw /ʍ /
Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________
2f. Re: Unveiling the new Gravgaln (was Graavgaaln)
Posted by: "Adam Walker" [email protected]
Date: Fri Jun 14, 2013 4:00 pm ((PDT))
Replies scattered below:
On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 5:32 PM, Eric Christopherson <[email protected]>wrote:
> On Jun 14, 2013, at 11:55 AM, Adam Walker <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > Here below is my draft translation of the Babel text into the new and
> > (IMHO) vastly improved Gravgaln. I've done an interlinear, but I can't
> say
> > that it's up to Leipzig standards. I'[m very open to questions,
> > suggestions and corrections. Adam
>
> Very nice!
>
>
Thanks!
>
> Nice cross-language pun on the ornative.
>
> I see a borrowing in the word for Earth...
>
>
Yes, I couldn't help myself on that. All of my case endings are puns. I
thought it would help me remember which was which. And yes, it's an alien
language, so Earth is a borrowing.
> [...]
>
> > Hyumênmas strréhliuvñukquech' veulzhj'ê
> >
> > Hyumên-mas s-trré-hliuv-ñuk-que-ch' veulzh-j'ê
> >
> > human-AGT IND.PROG-meanderingly-go-away.from-during-3.DISTPAST east-LOC
> >
> > The humans during their long journey out from the east
>
> And the word for "human" :)
>
>
>
Ditto.
>
> More puns for antibenefactive, and maybe benefactive. Nice.
>
> Is there a difference between the benefactive morphemes <-harm> and
> <-brall>, as in the following?
>
> > Nivqrharghmas dzazgrazhhliuvch' skimmék zdrêngbrall lî hlonzhbrall
> >
> > Nivqrhargh-mas dza-zgrazh-hliuv-ch' skim-mék zdrêng-brall lî hlonzh-brall
> >
> > Allstrong-AGT IND.PUNCT-come-down-3DISTPAST see-REAS city-ANTIBEN and
> > tower-ANTIBEN
> >
>
Yes, as I admitted above ALL of the case markers are puns. Some worse than
others. And *headdesk* yes, there is a difference between -harm which is
anti-benefactive and -brall which is an entirely different case and totally
mislabeled! -brall marks the confrontive case which is the opposite of the
aversive, but that case didn't appear in this text. Actually I was
astounded how many cases I could use in this one text.
> > The Almighty descended to see the city and tower
>
> On the subject of pun words in conlangs, I'm usually pretty strict about
> not allowing conlang words to be too similar to natlang ones if they mean
> similar things (or even if they mean different things but there's too much
> of a match in sound and/or orthography), unless that's actually justified
> in the backstory; but I keep toying with making a language with some common
> words inspired by Internet abbreviations. E.g.:
>
>
I have an unfortunate weakness for puns.
> 'aka "or" (preferably the "viz." type of or; but I could live
> with it with the "choice between alternatives" meaning)
> 'imho or im'ho or (preferably) 'imo particle used to soften a
> statement, especially when stating an opinion
> o'to alternately; then again; now that I think about it; on the
> other hand; OR contrariwise
>
> Those three are my favorite, and would work very nicely in a CV(CV(CV...))
> language (unless one insisted on the /h/ in /imho/, which I don't). Other
> possibilities might be:
>
> @'feik; a'jui particle used to soften a statement, like imho/imo; but
> more used in statements of (perceived) facts
> 'fnar aspect/aktionsart marker of spontaneous/unpredictable
> activity
>
> And of course:
>
> 'lal interjection indicating something is amusing
>
Well, I guess you can guess that *i* will like all of those!
And to answer your question about nivkh in your next email, yes I did that
on purpose. It was just too cool a word and fit the phonology too well not
to use it.
Adam
Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________
2g. Re: Unveiling the new Gravgaln (was Graavgaaln)
Posted by: "Alex Fink" [email protected]
Date: Fri Jun 14, 2013 5:37 pm ((PDT))
On Fri, 14 Jun 2013 17:32:44 -0500, Eric Christopherson <[email protected]>
wrote:
>On the subject of pun words in conlangs, I'm usually pretty strict about not
>allowing conlang words to be too similar to natlang ones if they mean similar
>things (or even if they mean different things but there's too much of a match
>in sound and/or orthography), unless that's actually justified in the backstory
If you ask me, that's undue influence from the natlang(s) in question too! I
aim for total _independence_ from natlangs; in an (unreachably) ideal world I'd
just forget my natlang knowledge while working on a conlang.
Bear in mind that even natlangs occasionally commit formally impeccable
coincidences like Persian /b&d/ 'bad' or Mbabaram /dOg/ 'dog'. And if you
allow a little phonetic leeway and a little semantic leeway the number of these
should increase multiplicatively -- exactly the same as the behaviour that
Rosenfelder explains in <http://zompist.com/chance.htm> in the context of mass
comparison, from the opposite perspective. If you really disallow words that
are phonetical match to (say) English ones _whatever_ their meaning, as you
suggest, and your phonotactics is otherwise close, that would leave a pretty
distinctive crater in your lexicon. (This is e.g. what Eskayan
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eskayan_language> did, and I think it shows.
But then Eskayan is a quite noobish conlang by our community's standards.)
Alex
Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________
2h. Re: Unveiling the new Gravgaln (was Graavgaaln)
Posted by: "James Kane" [email protected]
Date: Fri Jun 14, 2013 5:42 pm ((PDT))
Wow that is one hell of a phonology! I must ask though, why /ɐ ɑ ɒ/ rather than
/a ʌ ɔ/. Don't be offended, I just have a bit of a soft spot for symmetry. How
did you decide on all of the consonants? I noticed there are a few gaps like
/ɳ/, not that that's a bad thing of course!
James
Sent from my iPhone
On 15/06/2013, at 10:48 AM, Adam Walker <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 4:11 PM, James Kane <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Is there a guide to pronunciation somewhere? There are an awful lot of
>> digraphs :) Looks good though!
>>
>>
>> James
> Okay, just remember, you asked for it!
>
> Vowels
>
>
> i /i/
>
> é /e/
>
> e /ɛ / or /æ /
>
> î /ɨ /
>
> ê /ə /
>
> a /ɐ /
>
> ue /ɯ /
>
> óe /ɤ /
>
> oe /ɑ /
>
> iu /y/
>
> éu /ø /
>
> eu/œ / or /ɶ /
>
> û /ʉ /
>
> ô /ɵ /
>
> u /u/
>
> ó /o/
>
> o /ɒ /
>
>
> Consonants
>
>
> p /pʰ /
>
> bb /bʱ /
>
> b /b/
>
> t /tʰ /
>
> dd /dʱ /
>
> d /d/
>
> t' / ʈ ʰ /
>
> dd' /ɖ ʱ /
>
> d' / ɖ /
>
> k /kʰ /
>
> gg /gʱ /
>
> g /g/
>
> q /qʰ /
>
> qgg / ɢ ʱ /
>
> qg /ɢ /
>
> ph /ɸ /
>
> bh /β /
>
> f /f/
>
> v /v/
>
> th /θ /
>
> dh /ð /
>
> s /s/
>
> z /z/
>
> sh /ʃ /
>
> zh /ʒ /
>
> sh' /ʂ /
>
> zh' /ʐ /
>
> ś /ɕ /
>
> ź /ʑ /
>
> kh /x/
>
> gh /ɣ /
>
> hh /ħ /
>
> gh /ʕ /
>
> h /h/
>
> pf /pf͡ /
>
> bv /bv͡ /
>
> ts /t͡s /
>
> dz /dz͡ /
>
> ch /t͡ʃ /
>
> j /d͡ʒ /
>
> ch' /ʈʂ͡ /
>
> j' /ɖʐ͡ /
>
> m /m/
>
> n /n/
>
> ñ /ɲ /
>
> ng /ŋ /
>
> l /l/
>
> ł /ʎ /
>
> ll /ʟ /
>
> hl /ɬ /
>
> lz /ɮ /
>
> tl /tɬ͡ /
>
> dl /d͡ɮ/
>
> r /ɹ /
>
> rr /r/
>
> hr /ʁ / or /ʀ /
>
> ř /r͡ʒ /
>
> rv /ɹʋ͡ /
>
> y /j/
>
> w /w/
> hw /ʍ /
Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
3a. ablaut plus height harmony
Posted by: "neo gu" [email protected]
Date: Fri Jun 14, 2013 11:08 am ((PDT))
In my latest sketch, which is supposed to be naturalistic for a change, the
protolanguage has 4 vowels, call them I, U, E, and A (or O). Most roots are
CVCVC with each V specified only as being front or back. There may be a
suffixed V, also front or back. This leaves 2 ablaut grades, high and low,
which affect both the root and suffix V due to the height harmony. E.g.
*xIwIm-U vs *xEwEm-A. For transitive verbs, the low grade is used for active
forms and the high grade for passive ones. I'm not sure of the distribution for
nouns, prepositions, and intransitive verbs. My question is, how naturalistic
is this scheme? Also, is it too limiting?
Messages in this topic (2)
________________________________________________________________________
3b. Re: ablaut plus height harmony
Posted by: "Anthony Miles" [email protected]
Date: Fri Jun 14, 2013 5:32 pm ((PDT))
>In my latest sketch, which is supposed to be naturalistic for a change, the
>protolanguage has 4 vowels, call them I, U, E, >and A (or O). Most roots are
>CVCVC with each V specified only as being front or back. There may be a
>suffixed V, also >front or back. This leaves 2 ablaut grades, high and low,
>which affect both the root and suffix V due to the height >harmony. E.g.
>*xIwIm-U vs *xEwEm-A. For transitive verbs, the low grade is used for active
>forms and the high grade for >passive ones. I'm not sure of the distribution
>for nouns, prepositions, and intransitive verbs. My question is, how
>>naturalistic is this scheme? Also, is it too limiting?
How large is your consonant inventory? A low consonant inventory limits the
name of roots. I like small inventories and that's one of the things I have to
live with. Depending on the syntax and the possibility of compounding, this may
not be a problem. Is this language verbal or nominal? The ablaut of the
prepositions might depend on whether the language derives prepositions from
nouns or verbs, or both. Perhaps you could use verbal alignment to choose
whether intransitive verbs pattern with active or passive transitives.
This actually reminds me of a height harmony scheme I have notes for, which
involves "noun classes" derived from apocope of (C)V(N)CV roots, but since I'm
going NOMAIL for two weeks starting Sunday, I'll think about it and post
something on it when I return.
Messages in this topic (2)
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