There are 15 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. Re: THEORY: Long and short vowels association.
From: Leonardo Castro
1b. Re: THEORY: Long and short vowels association.
From: J. 'Mach' Wust
1c. Re: THEORY: Long and short vowels association.
From: H. S. Teoh
1d. Re: THEORY: Long and short vowels association.
From: BPJ
1e. Re: THEORY: Long and short vowels association.
From: Amanda Babcock Furrow
1f. Re: THEORY: Long and short vowels association.
From: Aodhán Aannestad
2.1. Re: Conlang punctuation.
From: Matthew Turnbull
2.2. Re: Conlang punctuation.
From: Matthew Turnbull
2.3. Re: Conlang punctuation.
From: Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
2.4. Re: Conlang punctuation.
From: Garth Wallace
2.5. Re: Conlang punctuation.
From: Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
2.6. Re: Conlang punctuation.
From: Garth Wallace
2.7. Re: Conlang punctuation.
From: Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
3a. Re: Mood and author opinion
From: Padraic Brown
3b. Re: Mood and author opinion
From: H. S. Teoh
Messages
________________________________________________________________________
1a. Re: THEORY: Long and short vowels association.
Posted by: "Leonardo Castro" leolucas1...@gmail.com
Date: Wed Jul 3, 2013 7:59 am ((PDT))
2013/7/3 George Corley <gacor...@gmail.com>:
> On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 at 7:02 AM, Leonardo Castro <leolucas1...@gmail.com>wrote:
>
>>
>> In some old e-mail conversations with Justin B. Rye, I could get some
>> details of what he imagined for an English spelling reform.
>> Apparently, most English words *look* as if they ended in consonant,
>> because all long vowels would get a final <y>, <w> or <h> :
>>
>> be -> biy
>> shampoo -> shampuw
>> law -> loh
>> Ra -> Rah
>>
>
> Keep in mind that "law" varies a lot by dialect, and to me "loh" doesn't in
> any way suggest the correct pronunciation.
If i understand anglophone perception, you perceive "loh" as [low] ,
but "oh" would represent [ÉË] in his scheme. I remember that we talked
about the coincidence that the interjection "Oh!" is pronounced as
[ÉË] in pt-BR, so, to me, it was completely natural to have "oh" as
[É].
Messages in this topic (18)
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1b. Re: THEORY: Long and short vowels association.
Posted by: "J. 'Mach' Wust" j_mach_w...@shared-files.de
Date: Wed Jul 3, 2013 10:53 am ((PDT))
On Tue, 2 Jul 2013 20:17:52 -0300, Leonardo Castro wrote:
>BTW, is there something similar to the Great Vowel Shift and this
>short-monophthong-long-diphthong association in any other languages?
A similar thing to the Great Vowel Shift has happened in many Germanic
languages that by some kind of coincidence happened to have similar vowel
changes at around the same time (late Middle Ages).
Middle Dutch [ti:d] --> Modern Dutch [tÉid] â¨tijdâ© Middle English [ti:m]
-->
Modern English [taim] â¨timeâ© Middle High German [tsi:t] --> Modern High
German [tsait] â¨Zeitâ©
I think English is the only of these languages where the original pairs of
long and short vowels are still perceived to be pairs of long and short
vowels.
At least in German, I know for sure: Nobody would perceive [ai] to be a
"long i". An important reason is that the sound is now written â¨eiâ©. Mind
you that things have been different in the late Middle Ages. Back then,
German [ai] was probably still perceived as a "long i", as is witnessed by
reports that Germans (or, at least, Swabians) pronounced Latin words like
"vinum" with an [ai].
As for Dutch, I do not know for sure, but I guess that "ij" is not perceived
to be a "long i", but an independent letter. Or is it? I wonder.
Another common characteristic of many Germanic vowel systems is that
stressed "short" vowels are restricted to closed syllables.
--
grüess
mach
Messages in this topic (18)
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1c. Re: THEORY: Long and short vowels association.
Posted by: "H. S. Teoh" hst...@quickfur.ath.cx
Date: Wed Jul 3, 2013 12:40 pm ((PDT))
On Wed, Jul 03, 2013 at 01:53:41PM -0400, J. 'Mach' Wust wrote:
> On Tue, 2 Jul 2013 20:17:52 -0300, Leonardo Castro wrote:
>
> >BTW, is there something similar to the Great Vowel Shift and this
> >short-monophthong-long-diphthong association in any other languages?
>
> A similar thing to the Great Vowel Shift has happened in many Germanic
> languages that by some kind of coincidence happened to have similar
> vowel changes at around the same time (late Middle Ages).
[...]
Is there something about Germanic languages at the time that would make
them more prone to vowel shifts? A gap in the vowel system leading to a
chain shift, perhaps? I'm curious why that would be common then, but
less common now (or is it still just as common, we just don't notice
it?).
T
--
Gone Chopin. Bach in a minuet.
Messages in this topic (18)
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1d. Re: THEORY: Long and short vowels association.
Posted by: "BPJ" b...@melroch.se
Date: Wed Jul 3, 2013 12:46 pm ((PDT))
2013-07-02 22:14, Leonardo Castro skrev:
> Hi!
>
> Do native anglophone understand [aɪ] as a long version of [ɪ] ?
>
> Is it seen as a coincidence that both are represented as <i> ?
> Or is it an association that is independent of writing?
>
> Are the following other short-long associations?
>
> <a> : [æ] - [eɪ]
> <o> : [É] - [oÊ]
> <e> : [É] - [ɪi] or [ɪj]
> <u> : [Ê] - [iu] or [ju] (as one says "an universe", I guess that it
> starts with the consonant [j])
>
> Até mais!
>
> Leonardo
>
I think its safe to say that nobody perceives [aɪ] as a long
version of [ɪ] in *phonetic* terms. The terms "long" and
"short" as used in teaching English-speaking children to read
ceased to have any phonetic relevance at least half a
millennium ago, but of course most people -- English-speaking
or otherwise -- don't have a clue about phonetics as
opposed to orthography.
The Wikipedia page on the Great Vowel Shift is reasonably
informative, with a nice graphic, although I'd take the
seemingly absolute dates with a pinch if salt:
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_vowel_shift>.
AFAIK its [ɪÊ] anymore only in parts of/for some speakers in Wales,
otherwise it's /ju/ and behaves as consonant initial.
/bpj
Messages in this topic (18)
________________________________________________________________________
1e. Re: THEORY: Long and short vowels association.
Posted by: "Amanda Babcock Furrow" la...@quandary.org
Date: Wed Jul 3, 2013 12:49 pm ((PDT))
On Wed, Jul 03, 2013 at 12:38:59PM -0700, H. S. Teoh wrote:
> Is there something about Germanic languages at the time that would make
> them more prone to vowel shifts? A gap in the vowel system leading to a
> chain shift, perhaps? I'm curious why that would be common then, but
> less common now (or is it still just as common, we just don't notice
> it?).
There are still vowel shifts going on today - one operating in
the northern American region is the Northern Cities Vowel Shift
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_cities_vowel_shift .
tylakèhlpë'fö,
Amanda
Messages in this topic (18)
________________________________________________________________________
1f. Re: THEORY: Long and short vowels association.
Posted by: "Aodhán Aannestad" tolkien_fr...@aannestad.com
Date: Wed Jul 3, 2013 1:41 pm ((PDT))
On 7/3/2013 2:49 PM, Amanda Babcock Furrow wrote:
> On Wed, Jul 03, 2013 at 12:38:59PM -0700, H. S. Teoh wrote:
>
>> Is there something about Germanic languages at the time that would make
>> them more prone to vowel shifts? A gap in the vowel system leading to a
>> chain shift, perhaps? I'm curious why that would be common then, but
>> less common now (or is it still just as common, we just don't notice
>> it?).
> There are still vowel shifts going on today - one operating in
> the northern American region is the Northern Cities Vowel Shift
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_cities_vowel_shift .
>
> tylakèhlpë'fö,
> Amanda
>
I wonder if English might have locked itself into a chain shift cycle,
where each rotation overcorrects for the last rotation's overcorrection.
Most dialects only seem to be on step 2 of the cycle, though (the Great
Vowel Shift being step 1, and a lot of dialects have innovated their own
disparate chain shifts), so it remains to be seen.
Messages in this topic (18)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
2.1. Re: Conlang punctuation.
Posted by: "Matthew Turnbull" ave....@gmail.com
Date: Wed Jul 3, 2013 8:59 am ((PDT))
Jorayn is normally written with a native script, which has 4 punctuation
marks. There's a sentence-final x shape, used like a period. a raised
vertical bar, like a long straight apostrophe, used to separate certain
affixes from the rest of the word, I'm not really sure if those follow any
pattern, I haven't looked into it. two marks one opening (a right slanted
vertical line with top clockwise loop) and one closing (same line with
bottom loop) that function mostly like quotation marks. They serve to
offset part of a phrase or if quoting something in a different writing
system. I think it's pretty normal punctuation wise.
On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 at 9:18 AM, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews <
goldyemo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> What's on the file. It's visual. I thought it would be.
>
> Mellissa Green
>
>
> @GreenNovelist
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:conl...@listserv.brown.edu] On
> Behalf Of Leonardo Castro
> Sent: Wednesday, July 3, 2013 8:07 AM
> To: conl...@listserv.brown.edu
> Subject: Re: Conlang punctuation.
>
> 2013/7/3 Michael Everson <ever...@evertype.com>:
> > On 1 Jul 2013, at 17:06, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
> <goldyemo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Are there rules governing conlang punctuation?
> >>
> >> I meant to ask awhile back about this, but kept forgetting.
> >> I think mine uses a period as a coma.
>
> It's logical, as a period is graphically smaller tha a coma.
>
> >>
> >> Can I invent my own punctuation?
> >
> > You can, but there is a very great many wonderful punctuation characters
> already encoded.
> >
> > http://www.unicode.org/charts/PDF/U2000.pdf
> >
> > http://www.unicode.org/charts/PDF/U2E00.pdf
> >
> > Look at all them dots. :-)
> >
> > Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
>
Messages in this topic (35)
________________________________________________________________________
2.2. Re: Conlang punctuation.
Posted by: "Matthew Turnbull" ave....@gmail.com
Date: Wed Jul 3, 2013 9:09 am ((PDT))
That figures, I had forgotten about the one slightly odd punctuation mark,
there's a small + that's used to join clauses, it represents whatever the
appropriate joining word is in that context, so is pronounced differently
depending on context. I say it's a punctuation mark rather than a "letter"
because it's written that same way as the punctuation marks are, and also
since it can represent more than one word.
On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 at 10:59 AM, Matthew Turnbull <ave....@gmail.com> wrote:
> Jorayn is normally written with a native script, which has 4 punctuation
> marks. There's a sentence-final x shape, used like a period. a raised
> vertical bar, like a long straight apostrophe, used to separate certain
> affixes from the rest of the word, I'm not really sure if those follow any
> pattern, I haven't looked into it. two marks one opening (a right slanted
> vertical line with top clockwise loop) and one closing (same line with
> bottom loop) that function mostly like quotation marks. They serve to
> offset part of a phrase or if quoting something in a different writing
> system. I think it's pretty normal punctuation wise.
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 at 9:18 AM, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews <
> goldyemo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> What's on the file. It's visual. I thought it would be.
>>
>> Mellissa Green
>>
>>
>> @GreenNovelist
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:conl...@listserv.brown.edu] On
>> Behalf Of Leonardo Castro
>> Sent: Wednesday, July 3, 2013 8:07 AM
>> To: conl...@listserv.brown.edu
>> Subject: Re: Conlang punctuation.
>>
>> 2013/7/3 Michael Everson <ever...@evertype.com>:
>> > On 1 Jul 2013, at 17:06, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
>> <goldyemo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >> Are there rules governing conlang punctuation?
>> >>
>> >> I meant to ask awhile back about this, but kept forgetting.
>> >> I think mine uses a period as a coma.
>>
>> It's logical, as a period is graphically smaller tha a coma.
>>
>> >>
>> >> Can I invent my own punctuation?
>> >
>> > You can, but there is a very great many wonderful punctuation characters
>> already encoded.
>> >
>> > http://www.unicode.org/charts/PDF/U2000.pdf
>> >
>> > http://www.unicode.org/charts/PDF/U2E00.pdf
>> >
>> > Look at all them dots. :-)
>> >
>> > Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
>>
>
>
Messages in this topic (35)
________________________________________________________________________
2.3. Re: Conlang punctuation.
Posted by: "Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews" goldyemo...@gmail.com
Date: Wed Jul 3, 2013 9:13 am ((PDT))
Thanks for the description.
What's a double dagger?
And what's it used for? How about a single dagger? Are they slash marks?
Mellissa Green
@GreenNovelist
-----Original Message-----
From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:conl...@listserv.brown.edu] On
Behalf Of Matthew Turnbull
Sent: Wednesday, July 3, 2013 12:00 PM
To: conl...@listserv.brown.edu
Subject: Re: Conlang punctuation.
Jorayn is normally written with a native script, which has 4 punctuation
marks. There's a sentence-final x shape, used like a period. a raised
vertical bar, like a long straight apostrophe, used to separate certain
affixes from the rest of the word, I'm not really sure if those follow any
pattern, I haven't looked into it. two marks one opening (a right slanted
vertical line with top clockwise loop) and one closing (same line with
bottom loop) that function mostly like quotation marks. They serve to
offset part of a phrase or if quoting something in a different writing
system. I think it's pretty normal punctuation wise.
On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 at 9:18 AM, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews <
goldyemo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> What's on the file. It's visual. I thought it would be.
>
> Mellissa Green
>
>
> @GreenNovelist
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:conl...@listserv.brown.edu] On
> Behalf Of Leonardo Castro
> Sent: Wednesday, July 3, 2013 8:07 AM
> To: conl...@listserv.brown.edu
> Subject: Re: Conlang punctuation.
>
> 2013/7/3 Michael Everson <ever...@evertype.com>:
> > On 1 Jul 2013, at 17:06, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
> <goldyemo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Are there rules governing conlang punctuation?
> >>
> >> I meant to ask awhile back about this, but kept forgetting.
> >> I think mine uses a period as a coma.
>
> It's logical, as a period is graphically smaller tha a coma.
>
> >>
> >> Can I invent my own punctuation?
> >
> > You can, but there is a very great many wonderful punctuation characters
> already encoded.
> >
> > http://www.unicode.org/charts/PDF/U2000.pdf
> >
> > http://www.unicode.org/charts/PDF/U2E00.pdf
> >
> > Look at all them dots. :-)
> >
> > Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
>
Messages in this topic (35)
________________________________________________________________________
2.4. Re: Conlang punctuation.
Posted by: "Garth Wallace" gwa...@gmail.com
Date: Wed Jul 3, 2013 9:26 am ((PDT))
On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 at 2:06 AM, Michael Everson <ever...@evertype.com> wrote:
> On 1 Jul 2013, at 17:06, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
> <goldyemo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Are there rules governing conlang punctuation?
>>
>> I meant to ask awhile back about this, but kept forgetting.
>> I think mine uses a period as a coma.
>>
>> Can I invent my own punctuation?
>
> You can, but there is a very great many wonderful punctuation characters
> already encoded.
>
> http://www.unicode.org/charts/PDF/U2000.pdf
>
> http://www.unicode.org/charts/PDF/U2E00.pdf
>
> Look at all them dots. :-)
>
> Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
Somehow I doubt Nicole will be looking at any dots. Screenreaders can
handle PDFs, I think, but probably can't describe the graphics.
Messages in this topic (35)
________________________________________________________________________
2.5. Re: Conlang punctuation.
Posted by: "Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews" goldyemo...@gmail.com
Date: Wed Jul 3, 2013 9:36 am ((PDT))
No, they can't. I wanted to invent something that could, but when I called
Freedom Scientific, they said it couldn't be done. That was years ago, but I
don't think it's changed. Screen readers can handle text .pdfs, though.
Mellissa Green
@GreenNovelist
-----Original Message-----
From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:conl...@listserv.brown.edu] On
Behalf Of Garth Wallace
Sent: Wednesday, July 3, 2013 12:27 PM
To: conl...@listserv.brown.edu
Subject: Re: Conlang punctuation.
On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 at 2:06 AM, Michael Everson <ever...@evertype.com>
wrote:
> On 1 Jul 2013, at 17:06, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
<goldyemo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Are there rules governing conlang punctuation?
>>
>> I meant to ask awhile back about this, but kept forgetting.
>> I think mine uses a period as a coma.
>>
>> Can I invent my own punctuation?
>
> You can, but there is a very great many wonderful punctuation characters
already encoded.
>
> http://www.unicode.org/charts/PDF/U2000.pdf
>
> http://www.unicode.org/charts/PDF/U2E00.pdf
>
> Look at all them dots. :-)
>
> Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
Somehow I doubt Nicole will be looking at any dots. Screenreaders can
handle PDFs, I think, but probably can't describe the graphics.
Messages in this topic (35)
________________________________________________________________________
2.6. Re: Conlang punctuation.
Posted by: "Garth Wallace" gwa...@gmail.com
Date: Wed Jul 3, 2013 9:40 am ((PDT))
On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 at 9:13 AM, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
<goldyemo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Thanks for the description.
>
> What's a double dagger?
> And what's it used for? How about a single dagger? Are they slash marks?
A dagger is a cross shape, like a plus sign but with crossbar closer
to the top, and usually a superscript. Some fancier typefaces make it
look more like a stylized knife pointing down. A double dagger is
similar, except there are two crossbars: one closer to the top and one
closer to the bottom. They're used to mark footnotes, like an
asterisk, usually if there are multiple footnotes on the same page.
For example, the first footnote on the page may use and asterisk, the
second a double asterisk (two asterisks in a row), the third a dagger,
and the fourth a double dagger. Some texts use superscript digits for
multiple footnotes, but texts that have both footnotes and endnotes
will usually use the superscript digits for endnotes and asterisks and
daggers for footnotes.
Daggers are also sometimes used to mark death dates, and for a few
other things besides. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dagger_(typography)
Messages in this topic (35)
________________________________________________________________________
2.7. Re: Conlang punctuation.
Posted by: "Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews" goldyemo...@gmail.com
Date: Wed Jul 3, 2013 9:43 am ((PDT))
Thanks for the link.
Mellissa Green
@GreenNovelist
-----Original Message-----
From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:conl...@listserv.brown.edu] On
Behalf Of Garth Wallace
Sent: Wednesday, July 3, 2013 12:41 PM
To: conl...@listserv.brown.edu
Subject: Re: Conlang punctuation.
On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 at 9:13 AM, Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
<goldyemo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Thanks for the description.
>
> What's a double dagger?
> And what's it used for? How about a single dagger? Are they slash marks?
A dagger is a cross shape, like a plus sign but with crossbar closer
to the top, and usually a superscript. Some fancier typefaces make it
look more like a stylized knife pointing down. A double dagger is
similar, except there are two crossbars: one closer to the top and one
closer to the bottom. They're used to mark footnotes, like an
asterisk, usually if there are multiple footnotes on the same page.
For example, the first footnote on the page may use and asterisk, the
second a double asterisk (two asterisks in a row), the third a dagger,
and the fourth a double dagger. Some texts use superscript digits for
multiple footnotes, but texts that have both footnotes and endnotes
will usually use the superscript digits for endnotes and asterisks and
daggers for footnotes.
Daggers are also sometimes used to mark death dates, and for a few
other things besides. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dagger_(typography)
Messages in this topic (35)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
3a. Re: Mood and author opinion
Posted by: "Padraic Brown" elemti...@yahoo.com
Date: Wed Jul 3, 2013 10:10 am ((PDT))
> From: Leonardo Castro <leolucas1...@gmail.com>
>
> 2013/6/29 Alex Fink <000...@gmail.com>:
>> On Fri, 28 Jun 2013 09:11:18 -0300, Leonardo Castro
> <leolucas1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> It seems that the ideas of "may", "will hardly",
> "must", "not", etc.,
>>> are logically equivalent to "the author <verb>".
>>
>> Responding to Padraic's confusion, Leonardo's "author" is
> what's more usually framed as "speaker" (primacy of speech,
> wahey), that is, the person being deictically referred to by the first person
> singular.
>
> Yes, I meant "the author of the sentences". The definition "the
> person being deictically referred to by the first person singular" is great!
> I avoided "speaker" because one could be reading someone else's
> speech, and so I don't know who would be considered as the
> "speaker".
Ordinarily, the "speaker" is, well, the one "speaking"! In this present
paragraph, *I* am the speaker. In the paragraph I'm responding to, *you*
are the speaker. In the paragraph you were responding to, *Alex* is the
speaker. Things only gets a little wonkier in fiction: the author is
always the underlying speaker, because the words and their context are
his. (Unless it's a direct quote belonging to someone else, in which case
*that* is the speaker and the author is merely quoting.) Above the level of
author, the character to whom the author has given words to say is the
in-story speaker.
"The speaker" isn't always the first person, though. Even a story told in the
first person might still record speech of other people. Those other people
would still be the speakers of their own words. Of course, any story narrated
in second person has *you* as the speaker, even though you never had anything
to do with the actual writing of the story.
>>> Naturally, instead of
>>> explicitly writing "the author", the verb could simply receive a
>>> particular form to mean that it's an opinion of the author or a fact
>>> that doesn't depend on the text character's opinions. Apparently,
>>> English can do this with adverbs:
>
>>> Do any nat or conlangs express this type of ideas by means of a
>>> specific conjugation of verbs such as "guess", "believe", "deny",
>>> "affirms", etc., instead of using "might", "probably", "not", "yes", etc.?
>
>> hearsay.distrusted rain "it's said to be raining (but I don't believe
>> it)"
>> -- note this one is nòt speaker default
>
> The "but I don't believe it" part is the difference between what I'm
> proposing and how most languages I know work.
>
> In Portuguese, the expression "{verb}-se que..." after a verb makes
> something similar to "it is {verb}-PP that..." in English. For
> instance, "sabe-se que..." is similar to "it's know that...".
Right. Or, "they say that", or "everyone knows that". Belief in what is so
commonly
said or known, at least in English, is conveyed through a wide variety of
means. We
strongly rely on the combination of inflection of tone and body language to
convey
trust or distrust in the information contained in the sentence -- maybe
something as
subtle a slight emphasis and a slight lengthening of an auxiliary verb coupled
with the
raising of an eyebrow is enough to convey the absolutest distrust in whatever
it is
"they sáy..."
We also use extra-sentential phrases, complete modules that convey ideas abòut
the ideas contained in the main clauses, but that themselves have no effect on
or
interaction with the grammar of the sentence: "well, I heard on the news last
night
that thus-and-so took place in some-such location..." The phrase "I heard on the
news last night" isn't really the main verb, and is not really part of the
sentence. It
is an extra module we often tack on to sentences that we want to say and what
they do is offer our opinion on the validity of the information conveyed. I.e.,
this
is an evidential. If inflected one way, it can mean "and I don't believe one
word
of it!" If inflected another way, it can mean "I totally buy into every single
word!"
Other common evidentials of this sort are like the Ptg. ones you give as
examples:
"they say that...", "it is said that...", "everyone knows that..."
We can also add on auxiliary verbs either in the indicative or subjunctive to
indicate
relative and increasing levels of distrust or ignorance or direct knowledge of
a thing.
For example, "so-and-so is dating so-and-so" speaks of a known fact. "So-and-so
might be dating so-and-so" speaks of insecurity about the fact. You can further
distance yourself from knowledge by heaping on deeper layers of disavowal:
"I've heard that so-and-so might be dating..." to "I might have heard something
to the effect that so-and-so might possibly be dating..." You get the idea. The
more
of these auxiliary phrases you heap on there, and more subjunctives they
contain,
the more unsure you are of the fact!
Again, all this strikes me very much as evidentiality. It just seems to boil
down to a
question of how it gets accomplished. I don't think any of this is "logically
equivalent"
to the speaker, because evidentiality itself is not the speaker. Evidentiality
is the
speaker's perspective or opinion on the nature of the action spoken of. I also
think
the answer to your question, "Do any nat or conlangs express this type of ideas
by
means of a specific conjugation of verbs such as "guess", "believe", "deny",
"affirms",
etc., instead of using "might", "probably", "not", "yes", etc.?" must be *yes*.
The use
of modals like "might" and "may" and so forth in English (as adjuncts to a main
verb)
answer that question for us! I think it's also pretty clear that there is a lot
of overlap
of these two areas: modals don't always imply that an evidential statement is
in play;
the lack of a modal doesn't mean that an evidential statement is not in play.
> It's very succinct, so it looks like a "conjugation" associated with the
> the person being deictically referred to by the first person singular.
> But "afirma-se que" (it's affirmed that) and "nega-se
> que" (it's denied that) have the additional idea of "but I don't guarantee
> what
> is being told", while using "sim" (yes) and "não" (not)
> gives us the idea of undoubtful information, although we know that we are
> simply
> trusting the person who says that.
Right. I don't see any "conjugation" here that specifically refers to the
speaker.
What's referring to the speaker is his perspective on whatever is being
confirmed
or denied. In other words, the speaker is neither confirming (afirmo) nor
negating
(nego), but rather is opining on what some amorphous group of other people --
the
proverbial "they" -- have supposedly confirmed or denied. Indeed "yes" and "no"
and
direct affirmation of the "I affirm that" or "I deny that" sort indicate the
most trustworthy
of evidentials: the speaker himself has direct knowledge of what he is talking
about!
Padraic
Messages in this topic (11)
________________________________________________________________________
3b. Re: Mood and author opinion
Posted by: "H. S. Teoh" hst...@quickfur.ath.cx
Date: Wed Jul 3, 2013 12:38 pm ((PDT))
On Wed, Jul 03, 2013 at 10:10:07AM -0700, Padraic Brown wrote:
[...]
> Ordinarily, the "speaker" is, well, the one "speaking"! In this
> present paragraph, *I* am the speaker. In the paragraph I'm responding
> to, *you* are the speaker. In the paragraph you were responding to,
> *Alex* is the speaker. Things only gets a little wonkier in fiction:
> the author is always the underlying speaker, because the words and
> their context are his. (Unless it's a direct quote belonging to
> someone else, in which case *that* is the speaker and the author is
> merely quoting.) Above the level of author, the character to whom the
> author has given words to say is the in-story speaker.
>
> "The speaker" isn't always the first person, though. Even a story told
> in the first person might still record speech of other people. Those
> other people would still be the speakers of their own words. Of
> course, any story narrated in second person has *you* as the speaker,
> even though you never had anything to do with the actual writing of
> the story.
This reminds me of a funny anecdote... when I was back in 13th grade
(back in those days when Ontario had such a thing), my English teacher
once stated in class that while a story could be written in the 3rd
person or the 1st person, it was impossible to write a story in the 2nd
person. Such a claim, of course, provoked me to prove her wrong, so I
set out to write exactly such a story. I've since lost the manuscript,
but it went something like this:
"You are standing at the bank machine, and there is a long line of
people waiting behind you. You fumble for your wallet, fighting against
the loose thread from your pants that has conveniently decided to get
entangled with your wallet just on this very occasion. After an
embarrassingly long struggle, you manage to dislodge the wallet, and
reach for your bank card. But wait... where is it? There are too many
cards in your wallet, stuffed in way too many different compartments,
some obvious, some quite hidden, that you simply couldn't find it! You
feel the impatience grow palpably behind you, especially from the
weight-challenged person next in line behind you, who has begun panting
like an angry bear... "
The point was about the proliferation of plastic cards that one has to
carry around these days -- credit cards, bank cards, driver's license,
health care card, insurance card, SIN card, etc., etc., such that it was
almost impossible to find the right one on the right occasion. At the
end the ... um ... reader? (don't you love 2nd person narratives? :-P)
makes a big fool of himself by spilling all his loose change and loose
bits of paper on the floor, proceeds to pick everything up, then forgets
his PIN due to his increasing embarrassment and frustration while the
crowd behind him gets positively furious.
The teacher remarked that it was hilariously dramatic, but sadly, she
didn't seem to have noticed that it was a story in 2nd person, contrary
to her claim that such a thing was impossible! :-P
[...]
> Right. Or, "they say that", or "everyone knows that". Belief in what
> is so commonly said or known, at least in English, is conveyed through
> a wide variety of means. We strongly rely on the combination of
> inflection of tone and body language to convey trust or distrust in
> the information contained in the sentence -- maybe something as subtle
> a slight emphasis and a slight lengthening of an auxiliary verb
> coupled with the raising of an eyebrow is enough to convey the
> absolutest distrust in whatever it is "they sáy..."
Such things tend to be peculiar to regional dialects, too. Sometimes
that leads to embarrassing misunderstandings. :-P This happens
especially when mock-seriousness in used in a sarcastic way; outsiders
may miss the subtle sarcasm cues, and interpret it at face-value.
> We also use extra-sentential phrases, complete modules that convey
> ideas abòut the ideas contained in the main clauses, but that
> themselves have no effect on or interaction with the grammar of the
> sentence: "well, I heard on the news last night that thus-and-so took
> place in some-such location..." The phrase "I heard on the news last
> night" isn't really the main verb, and is not really part of the
> sentence. It is an extra module we often tack on to sentences that we
> want to say and what they do is offer our opinion on the validity of
> the information conveyed. I.e., this is an evidential. If inflected
> one way, it can mean "and I don't believe one word of it!" If
> inflected another way, it can mean "I totally buy into every single
> word!"
The word "apparently" can also be used as an evidential, which can shift
depending on how you intone it. "She apparently said that to her
boyfriend", or "appárently, eating fat-free diets is linked to cancer"
(depending on how the latter is intoned, it could mean incredulity or
tentative possibility).
> Other common evidentials of this sort are like the Ptg. ones you give
> as examples: "they say that...", "it is said that...", "everyone knows
> that..."
Other variations: "they claim that ...", "they think that ...", "he's
convinced that ...", "who dóesn't know that ... ?!", "it's true that
...", "I'm pretty sure that ...", "I totally think that ...".
Funny how a change in person may negate the sense of an evidential, e.g.
"I totally think that ..." (total belief) vs. "she totally thinks that
..." (disbelief, or belief, depending on context/intonation/relationship
to said person).
> We can also add on auxiliary verbs either in the indicative or
> subjunctive to indicate relative and increasing levels of distrust or
> ignorance or direct knowledge of a thing. For example, "so-and-so is
> dating so-and-so" speaks of a known fact. "So-and-so might be dating
> so-and-so" speaks of insecurity about the fact. You can further
> distance yourself from knowledge by heaping on deeper layers of
> disavowal: "I've heard that so-and-so might be dating..." to "I might
> have heard something to the effect that so-and-so might possibly be
> dating..." You get the idea. The more of these auxiliary phrases you
> heap on there, and more subjunctives they contain, the more unsure you
> are of the fact!
[...]
OTOH, one can indicate undisclosed source by "A little bird told me that
...". Conceivably, a conlang (or natlang!) can convey this via a
grammatical particle / morpheme rather that such periphrases, e.g.,
morpheme X indicates strong confidence from an undisclosed source.
T
--
Never trust an operating system you don't have source for! -- Martin Schulze
Messages in this topic (11)
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