There are 5 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1.1. Re: Rolling your R's
From: Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets
1.2. Re: Rolling your R's
From: C. Brickner
1.3. Re: Rolling your R's
From: Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets
1.4. Re: Rolling your R's
From: Roger Mills
1.5. Re: Rolling your R's
From: R A Brown
Messages
________________________________________________________________________
1.1. Re: Rolling your R's
Posted by: "Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets" tsela...@gmail.com
Date: Sun Jul 21, 2013 7:03 am ((PDT))
On 18 July 2013 12:43, Sam Stutter <samjj...@gmail.com> wrote:
> The amount of times I hear English people attempting to do Edith Piaf
> style accents and thinking it's great French! Am I right when I tell them
> that they're doing the French equivalent of Dick van Dyke in Mary Poppins?
>
>
If they are trying and doing it badly, then yes :P . Edith Piaf's accent is
probably the closest French has to a Cockney accent :P .
On 19 July 2013 19:47, H. S. Teoh <hst...@quickfur.ath.cx> wrote:
> >
> > Strangely enough, I have no problem pronouncing uvular trills,
> > fricatives and approximants, but have a hard time with uvular stops.
>
> I've a hard time telling the difference between a velar stop and an
> uvular stop.
>
>
I don't. I *hear* the difference just fine. It's just pronouncing the
uvular stops reliably that gets me all the time. Especially the voiced
uvular stop!
> >
> > Some Dutch dialects also have the uvular trill as realisation of their
> > rhotic phoneme.
>
> Is that the same sound in "Margriet"? My wife visited Holland last year,
> and she was describing how that name has a really guttural sound that
> she can't pronounce (she got told to stop trying and just say "Margaret"
> like in English).
>
>
Depends, again, on the dialect. I personally pronounce it [ˈmɑrɣrit] or
maybe [ˈmɑrχrit] (never sure if my Dutch _g_ is velar, uvular, voiced or
voiceless. That's because I started learning Dutch in Brabant, where the
_g_ is usually a voiced velar fricative, but carried on learning it in the
Randstad –The Hague–, where the _g_ is usually voiceless, sometimes velar
and sometimes uvular depending on dialect). The combination of rhotics and
fricative takes a bit getting used to, but it's not too bad. That said,
other dialects, especially those that use an uvular trill for the rhotic,
massacre this cluster in many ways, usually losing at least one rhotic in
the battle :P .
> OK, now I'm *really* wondering if what I think I'm pronouncing as a flap
> is actually just a really fast [d], because it has absolutely *no*
> resemblance to the way I'm pronouncing my trills right now!
>
>
Depends. My flap cannot be anything like a fast [d], because my [d]'s are
dental and my flap is definitely alveolar, like my trill. My trill is
definitely just a repeated version of my flap. If your [d]'s are alveolar
though, then I cannot really help here :) .
>
> Interesting. I *am* finding that in order to get a trill, I need a
> rather forceful breath -- trying to trill while whispering doesn't work.
>
Agreed. I cannot do trills when whispering either. They come out as weird
lateral fricative-like things. I need some air pressure behind the tongue
to make it trill.
> (Which is kinda odd, since my trills started out voiceless!) I do find
> that tongue position matters a lot, as well as the shape of the mouth
> cavity. I keep alluding to the muscles at the roof of my mouth, because
> I found that the trill comes more easily when those muscles are tense,
> which causes the mouth cavity to narrow at the top. I'm guessing that
> this constricts the airflow over the tongue, which helps sustain the
> trill. Since I never used to use these muscles in speech, I'm having a
> really hard time integrating my [r]'s into regular speech. :)
>
>
Like biking, it takes a while getting used to using your muscles
differently. Once you got it though, you never forget :) .
>
> [...]
> > Palatalised trills are easy enough. My own problem is being unable to
> > distinguish alveolo-palatal fricatives from postalveolar ones!
> [...]
>
> What, there's a difference?!
>
>
I mean [ɕ] vs. [ʃ]. I understand some languages have them as separate
phonemes. I cannot for the life of me hear the difference nor produce it!
>
> I've no idea how to even begin to pronounce an epiglottal trill! (I
> didn't even know there's such a thing as an epiglottis before coming to
> this list.) It'd be interesting to learn, though. It's good conlang
> material. :)
>
>
I believe my Maggel has at least 5 phonemic rhotics, of which two are the
alveolar and the uvular trill. The alveolar flap, the uvular fricative and
the alveolar approximant complete the set. I'm wonder if I could include
the epiglottal trill, but as yourself I have no idea how to pronounce it!
On 19 July 2013 20:59, Garth Wallace <gwa...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 10:47 AM, H. S. Teoh <hst...@quickfur.ath.cx>
> wrote:
> >
> > OK, now I'm *really* wondering if what I think I'm pronouncing as a flap
> > is actually just a really fast [d], because it has absolutely *no*
> > resemblance to the way I'm pronouncing my trills right now!
>
> A flap IS a really fast [d], more or less: the articulation is the
> same but contact between the tongue and the roof of the mouth is brief
> enough that the airflow isn't interrupted. The English /d/ is usually
> [ɾ] intervocalically.
>
Correction: the flap is basically a fast *apico-alveolar* [d]. My own
[d]'s, on the other hand, alternate between apico-dental and lamino-dental
(depending on what's around the [d]), so nothing like an alveolar flap at
all.
On 20 July 2013 07:45, H. S. Teoh <hst...@quickfur.ath.cx> wrote:
>
> OK, good to know. Well, then the description of [r] being a "prolonged
> [4]" is completely inaccurate, because I simply cannot produce any trill
> from that POA at all! I have to hold my tongue differently, slightly
> raised in the middle, and contract the roof of my mouth somewhat, and
> breathe differently, in order to make [r]. Completely unlike [d] or [4].
>
>
Then I wonder what you're pronouncing, in all three cases! If your [d]'s
were alveolar, [ɾ] should be in the same POA, and [r] too! (or at least
close in the neighbourhood). If your [d]'s are really dental, then I'd
understand that an alveolar trill would be further back your mouth, but
that would mean that your [ɾ] would be dental as well. A weird place to
make a flap, although not impossible (I can produce it, but can't hear the
difference with an alveolar flap). That would explain your difficulties in
explaining what you're doing.
>
> Funny, I just tried it, and found it's easier to pronounce initial [B\]
> followed by a vowel, and much harder to for an initial vowel to
> transition to [B\]. In either case, I've to blow really hard to get my
> lips to flap while pronouncing a vowel before/after. You're right that
> [B\] in isolation is the easiest of them all.
>
>
It took me a while, but I can do it in all possible combinations with
vowels. I have difficulties as soon as I want to pronounce it in cluster
with other consonants.
> Also, trying to say [B\a], [aB\], and [aB\a] again, I find that voiced
> [B\] is much harder than unvoiced [B\]. Maybe this is because I'm
> unconsciously actually pronouncing it as [pB\] (very short labial stop
> with trilled release), and voicing tenses the lips in the wrong way for
> trilling. (Well, not the voicing itself, but probably an unconscious
> habitual correspondence of lip muscle position with devoicing.)
>
>
Actually, it's a well known phonetic constraint that labial consonants tend
not to go well with voicelessness. That's why, for instance, Modern
Standard Arabic has /b/ but lacks /p/. The opposite is also true: back
consonants tend to not like being voiced. That's what many languages have
/k/ but lack /g/ (Modern Standard Arabic comes to mind. Dutch is also that
way, although recent borrowings have reintroduced /g/. Same with Modern
Greek), and even more have voiceless uvular stops but not the voiced ones.
> Well, up here in the Great White North, we say [B\] when the bitter cold
> of harsh winter descends upon us, so we don't quite regard it as
> ridiculous as tropical dwellers may. ;-)
>
>
Same in France. But if you use it in warm weather, you're likely to get
weird looks :P .
>
> Huh, that's interesting. So you're saying your trills are ... lateral?
> Unilateral, even, if one may abuse the term. :) Makes me wonder if any
> language has unilateral phonemes... it'd be good conlang material (for a
> freaklang, that is :-P).
>
>
I believe lateral clicks tend to be unilateral, i.e. the tongue contact to
the palate is on one side of the mouth only.
--
Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets.
http://christophoronomicon.blogspot.com/
http://www.christophoronomicon.nl/
Messages in this topic (34)
________________________________________________________________________
1.2. Re: Rolling your R's
Posted by: "C. Brickner" tepeyach...@embarqmail.com
Date: Sun Jul 21, 2013 7:20 am ((PDT))
----- Original Message -----
On 18 July 2013 12:43, Sam Stutter <samjj...@gmail.com> wrote:
> The amount of times I hear English people attempting to do Edith Piaf
> style accents and thinking it's great French! Am I right when I tell them
> that they're doing the French equivalent of Dick van Dyke in Mary Poppins?
>
>
If they are trying and doing it badly, then yes :P . Edith Piaf's accent is
probably the closest French has to a Cockney accent :P .
====================
Was that her speaking accent or did she use it only when she sang. Diction when
singing is often different from everyday speaking.
Charlie
Messages in this topic (34)
________________________________________________________________________
1.3. Re: Rolling your R's
Posted by: "Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets" tsela...@gmail.com
Date: Sun Jul 21, 2013 7:35 am ((PDT))
On 21 July 2013 16:19, C. Brickner <tepeyach...@embarqmail.com> wrote:
> >
> If they are trying and doing it badly, then yes :P . Edith Piaf's accent is
> probably the closest French has to a Cockney accent :P .
>
> ====================
> Was that her speaking accent or did she use it only when she sang. Diction
> when singing is often different from everyday speaking.
> Charlie
>
Nope. That was one thing that was special about her: she sang just like she
spoke. She did accentuate some of her speech's feature when singing, but
they were definitely more than obvious in her normal speech too :) .
--
Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets.
http://christophoronomicon.blogspot.com/
http://www.christophoronomicon.nl/
Messages in this topic (34)
________________________________________________________________________
1.4. Re: Rolling your R's
Posted by: "Roger Mills" romi...@yahoo.com
Date: Sun Jul 21, 2013 7:00 pm ((PDT))
From: Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets <tsela...@gmail.com>
(snipalot)
(not sure who,...):
> OK, now I'm *really* wondering if what I think I'm pronouncing as a flap
> is actually just a really fast [d], because it has absolutely *no*
> resemblance to the way I'm pronouncing my trills right now!
>
>
Depends. My flap cannot be anything like a fast [d], because my [d]'s are
dental and my flap is definitely alveolar, like my trill. My trill is
definitely just a repeated version of my flap. If your [d]'s are alveolar
though, then I cannot really help here :) .
RM In Engl. my /t d/ are both alveolar. When I speak Spanish, they tend to be
(are supposed to be) dental. The Engl. flap in e.g. "potter", or the fast /d/
in "ladder" are still alveolar. But my Span. r-flap/-trill is definitely a
little further back-- post-alveolar? Engl. "potter" and Span. "para" are
nowhere near homonyms. The tongue is cupped, not bunched up as it is for Engl.
/r/; I can do both the flap/trill in a whisper too.
Teoh I think:
> Interesting. I *am* finding that in order to get a trill, I need a
> rather forceful breath -- trying to trill while whispering doesn't work.
>
RM It isn't so much more breath, as a certain amount of muscular tension _in
the tongue_ (I think).
(snipmore)
>
I mean [ɕ] vs. [ʃ]. I understand some languages have them as separate
phonemes. I cannot for the life of me hear the difference nor produce it!
RM The former should be retroflexed, no? Doesn't Basque distinguish those? Or
am I thinking of the Basque apical /s/?
>
> I've no idea how to even begin to pronounce an epiglottal trill! (I
> didn't even know there's such a thing as an epiglottis before coming to
> this list.) It'd be interesting to learn, though. It's good conlang
> material. :)
RM Isn't that the sound we make to imitate a dog growling? Or on "Talk like a
pirate Day", when you go "Arrrr matey" etc. :-))
>
>
I believe my Maggel has at least 5 phonemic rhotics, of which two are the
alveolar and the uvular trill. The alveolar flap, the uvular fricative and
the alveolar approximant complete the set. I'm wonder if I could include
the epiglottal trill, but as yourself I have no idea how to pronounce it!
RM Dravidian languages have 3 POAs for /t d r/ and maybe /l/ -- dental,
alveolar, retroflexed. I've heard them demonstrated by native speakers, and the
retroflexed /r/ sounds like a stop. My tin ear.....
Messages in this topic (34)
________________________________________________________________________
1.5. Re: Rolling your R's
Posted by: "R A Brown" r...@carolandray.plus.com
Date: Mon Jul 22, 2013 12:09 am ((PDT))
On 21/07/2013 15:03, Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets wrote:
> On 18 July 2013 12:43, Sam Stutter wrote:
>
>> The amount of times I hear English people attempting to
>> do Edith Piaf style accents and thinking it's great
>> French! Am I right when I tell them that they're doing
>> the French equivalent of Dick van Dyke in Mary
>> Poppins?
>>
>>
> If they are trying and doing it badly, then yes :P .
> Edith Piaf's accent is probably the closest French has to
> a Cockney accent :P .
Cockney?
Sam was talking about Dick van Dyke ;)
--
Ray
==================================
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
"language … began with half-musical unanalysed expressions
for individual beings and events."
[Otto Jespersen, Progress in Language, 1895]
Messages in this topic (34)
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