There are 15 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. Re: Tongue-twisters
From: George Corley
1b. Re: Tongue-twisters
From: Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews
1c. Re: Tongue-twisters
From: kechpaja
1d. Re: Tongue-twisters
From: Anthony Miles
1e. Re: Tongue-twisters
From: Cedh Audmanh
2a. How does singing interact with voiceless phonemes?
From: Matthew George
2b. Re: How does singing interact with voiceless phonemes?
From: Daniel Myers
2c. Re: How does singing interact with voiceless phonemes?
From: Adam Walker
2d. Re: How does singing interact with voiceless phonemes?
From: Ralph DeCarli
3. Pronouns: Siye Revision
From: Anthony Miles
4a. Beautiful vowel diagrams using LaTeX
From: H. S. Teoh
4b. Re: Beautiful vowel diagrams using LaTeX
From: Jyri Lehtinen
5a. "I wonder..." in verb-final languages
From: MorphemeAddict
5b. Re: "I wonder..." in verb-final languages
From: Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets
5c. Re: "I wonder..." in verb-final languages
From: Roger Mills
Messages
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1a. Re: Tongue-twisters
Posted by: "George Corley" [email protected]
Date: Thu Jul 25, 2013 12:08 pm ((PDT))
I've never really developed enough vocabulary to make a good tongue
twister. IMO, in order to make an authentic tongue-twister, you need a
fairly established lexicon first, so that you can start searching through
your words for particular sounds and end up writing something appropriately
nonsensical.
On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 8:16 AM, Leonardo Castro <[email protected]>wrote:
> 2013/7/25 H. S. Teoh <[email protected]>:
> > Do yall's conlangs have tongue-twisters?
>
> Only if things like "kiei kiese-kei kuasu" are considered
> tongue-twisters...
>
> >
> > I just discovered one in my alien conlang. It's a *literal*
> > tongue-twister:
> >
> > er ehrlu.
> > [,Er'ExR\_0lU]
> > one tongue
> >
> > The twister is in the first two syllables, which goes from a voiced
> > alveolar trill [r] to an unvoiced uvular trill [R\_0] in a single
> > syllable. Say it fast enough, and you start getting the trill-cluster
> > [rR\_0], rather like a tiger's growl. :-P The fact that the phrase
> > literally means "one tongue" is an unintentional coincidence. :-)
> >
> > Well, in this case, it's not strictly speaking a *tongue* twister, but a
> > lingual-uvular twister. :-P (I'd throw in [B\] just for the fun of it,
> > then it'd be a labio-lingual-uvular twister, but alas (or is that
> > *fortunately*?), this conlang doesn't have any /B\/.)
> >
> >
> > T
> >
> > --
> > Gone Chopin. Bach in a minuet.
>
Messages in this topic (7)
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1b. Re: Tongue-twisters
Posted by: "Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews" [email protected]
Date: Thu Jul 25, 2013 1:23 pm ((PDT))
I'm guessing you need to know how tongue twisters work.
That would be an interesting exercise.
Thanks, that's a good game for Yemorans to play. But would it really be
called a tongue twister on another planet?
Mellissa Green
@GreenNovelist
-----Original Message-----
From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of George Corley
Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2013 3:08 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Tongue-twisters
I've never really developed enough vocabulary to make a good tongue
twister. IMO, in order to make an authentic tongue-twister, you need a
fairly established lexicon first, so that you can start searching through
your words for particular sounds and end up writing something appropriately
nonsensical.
On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 8:16 AM, Leonardo Castro
<[email protected]>wrote:
> 2013/7/25 H. S. Teoh <[email protected]>:
> > Do yall's conlangs have tongue-twisters?
>
> Only if things like "kiei kiese-kei kuasu" are considered
> tongue-twisters...
>
> >
> > I just discovered one in my alien conlang. It's a *literal*
> > tongue-twister:
> >
> > er ehrlu.
> > [,Er'ExR\_0lU]
> > one tongue
> >
> > The twister is in the first two syllables, which goes from a voiced
> > alveolar trill [r] to an unvoiced uvular trill [R\_0] in a single
> > syllable. Say it fast enough, and you start getting the trill-cluster
> > [rR\_0], rather like a tiger's growl. :-P The fact that the phrase
> > literally means "one tongue" is an unintentional coincidence. :-)
> >
> > Well, in this case, it's not strictly speaking a *tongue* twister, but a
> > lingual-uvular twister. :-P (I'd throw in [B\] just for the fun of it,
> > then it'd be a labio-lingual-uvular twister, but alas (or is that
> > *fortunately*?), this conlang doesn't have any /B\/.)
> >
> >
> > T
> >
> > --
> > Gone Chopin. Bach in a minuet.
>
Messages in this topic (7)
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1c. Re: Tongue-twisters
Posted by: "kechpaja" [email protected]
Date: Thu Jul 25, 2013 1:32 pm ((PDT))
On Thu, 25 Jul 2013 16:23:31 -0400
Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews <[email protected]> wrote:
> But would it really be
> called a tongue twister on another planet?
Probably not. Every language has a different term for the tongue-twister. In
German, it's a "Zungenbrecher" ("tongue-breaker"). In Russian, it's
"скороговорка" ("quick-saying", /sk@r@g6'vOrk@/). You might want to try
translating "tongue twister" into different languages on Google Translate (or
in a dictionary; they usually have terms like that listed separately), and see
what comes up.
-Kelvin
--
kechpaja <[email protected]>
Messages in this topic (7)
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1d. Re: Tongue-twisters
Posted by: "Anthony Miles" [email protected]
Date: Thu Jul 25, 2013 3:09 pm ((PDT))
The tongue-twister for SSL (Siye as a second language) are 1) the sibilants
(sa, tsa, sha, shcha, cha) 2) the nasals (ma, na). Siye (Shee-yeh) is full of
words such as /susumsuyamsoya/ (soo-suhng-soo-yang-so-ya) 'the two messengers'
and /sasisonemenanumo/ (sa-shee-so-neh-meh-nah-noo-mo) 'has he stopped singing
about you?'
Messages in this topic (7)
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1e. Re: Tongue-twisters
Posted by: "Cedh Audmanh" [email protected]
Date: Fri Jul 26, 2013 2:58 am ((PDT))
On Wed, 24 Jul 2013 22:04:17 -0700, H. S. Teoh wrote:
> Do yall's conlangs have tongue-twisters?
I have a fairly complex one in Tmaśareʔ:
Orthography:
Hakwakakpahcǫʔ ckǫkahkya kmeʔkayahpamomǫʔ kwoco haktahkakahpoʔ kohpco
kwahmomǫʔma, kąta kcehkpehkekehkoʔ kwihkwoʔ sąkma kehće Kąʔkokwohoʔkęʔ
ǫkśokmąką ckehtakweckwekńǫkiʔkwi?
IPA:
[ ˌhʌkʷʌkʌˈkpɑxtsɔ̃ʔ tskɔ̃ˈkɑxkjʌ kmɛʔˈkɑjɑxˌpʌmʊˌmɔ̃ʔ ˈkʷotsʊ hʌˌktɑxkʌˈkɑxpɔʔ
ˌkɔxptsʊ ˈkʷɑxmʊˌmɔ̃ʔmʌ | ˌkɑ̃tʌ ˌktsɛxˌkpɛxkɛˈkɛxkɔʔ ˈkʷiçkʷɔʔ ˌsɑ̃kmʌ ˌkɛxtʃe
ˈkɑ̃ʔkʊkʷoˌhɔʔkɛ̃ʔ ɔ̃ˈkʃokmɑ̃kɑ̃ ˈtskɛ̃xtʌˌkʷɛtskʷɛkɲɔ̃ˌkiʔkʷi ]
X-SAMPA:
[ ,hVk_wVkV'kpAxtsO~? tskO~'kAxkjV kmE?'kAjAx,pVmU,mO~? 'k_wotsU
hV,ktAxkV'kAxpO? ,kOxptsU 'k_wAxmU,mO~?mV | ,kA~tV ,ktsEx,kpExkE'kExkO?
'k_wiCk_wO? ,sA~kmV ,kExtSe 'kA~?kUk_wo,hO?kE~? O~'kSokmA~kA~
'tskE~xtV,k_wEtsk_wEkJO~,ki?k_wi ]
Gloss:
Hakwakakpahcǫʔ ckǫkahkya kmeʔkayahpamomǫʔ kwoco
hakwa=ka~kpahcǫ-oʔ ckǫ=ka~kaya-Ø k-mek-kayahpa-mo-mę-oʔ kwoco
near=PL~forest-GEN serious=PL~fire-ABS 3PL-INSTR-burn-CPL-VN-GEN after
haktahkakahpoʔ kohpco kwahmomǫʔma,
ha=ktah=ka~kahpa-oʔ kohpa-co kwahi-mo-mę-oʔ=ʔma
all=suitable=PL~tree-GEN follow-ADV be_gone-CPL-VN-GEN=and,
kąta kcehkpehkekehkoʔ kwihkwoʔ sąkma kehće
kąta kceh=kpeh=ke~kehka-oʔ kwihkwe-oʔ sąkma kehće
now dirty=dry=PL~rock-GEN OBV.IV.PL-GEN made_of instead
Kąʔkokwohoʔkęʔ ǫkśokmąką ckęhtakweckwekńǫkiʔkwi?
kąʔ=ko~kwoho-oʔ-kę-eʔ ǫk-śokmąką-Ø c-kęhta-<kwece>-kwe-kńǫ-kiʔk-wi
black=PL~wolf-GEN-FEMALE-ERG 1PL-dwelling-ABS
BEN-build-<pillar>-ASS-3>3.III-PROG-Q
Translation:
After the nearby forests have burned down in serious fires and all the suitable
trees are gone as a result, I assume She of the Black Wolves is now building
pillars for our dwelling from those dirty dry rocks instead?
- Jan
Messages in this topic (7)
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2a. How does singing interact with voiceless phonemes?
Posted by: "Matthew George" [email protected]
Date: Thu Jul 25, 2013 12:55 pm ((PDT))
I am considering making my conlang's phonemes either all voiceless or all
voiced - it seems nicely alien to lack vocal chords. Further, I remember
reading suggestions that heavy emphasis on voicing makes words seem
'nastier', with examples given of how Tolkien made Orcish seem harsh and
barbaric. So I was leaning towards voicelessness. But no chords means no
singing, too, which is rather a shame; I like the idea of a language that
is always sung.
Which then made me wonder: in languages where phonemes are distinguished
by voicing, how do we recognize them in sung speech? Human singing
necessarily involves voicing to create a tone. Do we simply perceive the
phonemes that make sense in context (the way we don't thinking about the
last sound in "dogs" being /z/), or are degrees of volume or similar
features permitted to vary by singers to distinguish between phonemes?
Matt G.
Messages in this topic (4)
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2b. Re: How does singing interact with voiceless phonemes?
Posted by: "Daniel Myers" [email protected]
Date: Thu Jul 25, 2013 1:59 pm ((PDT))
>From my experience with choral music, I know that good vocalists are
trained to sing certain phonemes differently than they are spoken.
Plosives and stops (voiced or unvoiced, but especially the unvoiced) can
sound amplified or emphasized, and are therefore intentionally
de-emphasized.
There's a related problem with diphthongs, usually illustrated by a song
that draws out the word "hallelujah". This was demonstrated nicely in a
nightmare scene in the movie Ordinary People.
T and P are often replaced with very light D and B to prevent a popping
sound.
Syllables ending in sibilants, aspirants, or liquids that are drawn out
are sung so that the preceding vowel is stretched out and the final
sound is as short as possible (I've heard novice choirs that didn't do
this and sounded like a bunch of snakes or bees). On the flip side,
there are some vocal pieces that intentionally use this to achieve a
desired effect.
- Doc
> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: How does singing interact with voiceless phonemes?
> From: Matthew George <[email protected]>
> Date: Thu, July 25, 2013 3:55 pm
> To: [email protected]
>
>
> I am considering making my conlang's phonemes either all voiceless or all
> voiced - it seems nicely alien to lack vocal chords. Further, I remember
> reading suggestions that heavy emphasis on voicing makes words seem
> 'nastier', with examples given of how Tolkien made Orcish seem harsh and
> barbaric. So I was leaning towards voicelessness. But no chords means no
> singing, too, which is rather a shame; I like the idea of a language that
> is always sung.
>
> Which then made me wonder: in languages where phonemes are distinguished
> by voicing, how do we recognize them in sung speech? Human singing
> necessarily involves voicing to create a tone. Do we simply perceive the
> phonemes that make sense in context (the way we don't thinking about the
> last sound in "dogs" being /z/), or are degrees of volume or similar
> features permitted to vary by singers to distinguish between phonemes?
>
> Matt G.
Messages in this topic (4)
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2c. Re: How does singing interact with voiceless phonemes?
Posted by: "Adam Walker" [email protected]
Date: Thu Jul 25, 2013 2:01 pm ((PDT))
You might search for songs being sung in Cheyenne or Totonac since they
both include devoiced vowels.
Adam
On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 2:55 PM, Matthew George <[email protected]> wrote:
> I am considering making my conlang's phonemes either all voiceless or all
> voiced - it seems nicely alien to lack vocal chords. Further, I remember
> reading suggestions that heavy emphasis on voicing makes words seem
> 'nastier', with examples given of how Tolkien made Orcish seem harsh and
> barbaric. So I was leaning towards voicelessness. But no chords means no
> singing, too, which is rather a shame; I like the idea of a language that
> is always sung.
>
> Which then made me wonder: in languages where phonemes are distinguished
> by voicing, how do we recognize them in sung speech? Human singing
> necessarily involves voicing to create a tone. Do we simply perceive the
> phonemes that make sense in context (the way we don't thinking about the
> last sound in "dogs" being /z/), or are degrees of volume or similar
> features permitted to vary by singers to distinguish between phonemes?
>
> Matt G.
>
Messages in this topic (4)
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2d. Re: How does singing interact with voiceless phonemes?
Posted by: "Ralph DeCarli" [email protected]
Date: Thu Jul 25, 2013 6:09 pm ((PDT))
On Thu, 25 Jul 2013 15:55:16 -0400
Matthew George <[email protected]> wrote:
> I am considering making my conlang's phonemes either all voiceless
> or all voiced - it seems nicely alien to lack vocal chords.
> Further, I remember reading suggestions that heavy emphasis on
> voicing makes words seem 'nastier', with examples given of how
> Tolkien made Orcish seem harsh and barbaric. So I was leaning
> towards voicelessness. But no chords means no singing, too, which
> is rather a shame; I like the idea of a language that is always
> sung.
>
If the speech was mostly 'percussive' I would think poetry would
tend to sound like beat-boxing. Tones would creep in through
'slides'.
Repeat "Pew! Pew! Pew!" (extra plosive?) without vocalizing.
Do your aliens have an airway that can change shape and size?
Ralph
--
Have you heard of the new post-neo-modern art style?
They haven't decided what it looks like yet.
Messages in this topic (4)
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3. Pronouns: Siye Revision
Posted by: "Anthony Miles" [email protected]
Date: Thu Jul 25, 2013 2:23 pm ((PDT))
I've revised and rewritten my sections on Frathwiki on pronouns in Siye, both
as free pronouns and as pronominal prefixes and pronominal grammatical number
suffixes. It's quite detailed now, but if I've forgotten something, or am not
sufficiently clear, please advise/ask/complain.
http://www.frathwiki.com/Siye#Pronouns
http://www.frathwiki.com/Siye#Verb_Structure
Messages in this topic (1)
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4a. Beautiful vowel diagrams using LaTeX
Posted by: "H. S. Teoh" [email protected]
Date: Thu Jul 25, 2013 10:20 pm ((PDT))
Just found this today:
http://www.ctan.org/pkg/vowel
It's a package that lets you draw print-quality vowel diagrams in LaTeX.
Apparently, it's been around for a while, even packaged as part of the
IPA fonts package TIPA which I have installed, yet I've never noticed it
until now.
I'm duly impressed... and going off to typeset my conlang grammars in
LaTeX now. :)
T
--
Freedom of speech: the whole world has no right *not* to hear my spouting off!
Messages in this topic (2)
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4b. Re: Beautiful vowel diagrams using LaTeX
Posted by: "Jyri Lehtinen" [email protected]
Date: Fri Jul 26, 2013 3:24 am ((PDT))
That's some nice automation there. I think I'm still going to use plain
tabular for my needs because rectangular grids work perfectly fine for a
phonemic feature based grouping, but this doesn't take away the niceness of
this package. Maybe it could be possible to use this a a basis for showing
free variation in small vowel systems by drawing the allowed vowel areas as
an overlay on top of the diagram. Proper alignment of the two layers could
be a problem though.
-Jyri
2013/7/26 H. S. Teoh <[email protected]>
> Just found this today:
>
> http://www.ctan.org/pkg/vowel
>
> It's a package that lets you draw print-quality vowel diagrams in LaTeX.
> Apparently, it's been around for a while, even packaged as part of the
> IPA fonts package TIPA which I have installed, yet I've never noticed it
> until now.
>
> I'm duly impressed... and going off to typeset my conlang grammars in
> LaTeX now. :)
>
>
> T
>
> --
> Freedom of speech: the whole world has no right *not* to hear my spouting
> off!
>
Messages in this topic (2)
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5a. "I wonder..." in verb-final languages
Posted by: "MorphemeAddict" [email protected]
Date: Thu Jul 25, 2013 11:56 pm ((PDT))
How do Japanese, Koreans, Turks, and others who speak verb-final languages
express the simple (at least to me) thought of "I wonder..."?
stevo
Messages in this topic (3)
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5b. Re: "I wonder..." in verb-final languages
Posted by: "Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets" [email protected]
Date: Fri Jul 26, 2013 1:00 am ((PDT))
On 26 July 2013 08:55, MorphemeAddict <[email protected]> wrote:
> How do Japanese, Koreans, Turks, and others who speak verb-final languages
> express the simple (at least to me) thought of "I wonder..."?
>
> stevo
>
I don't know about other languages, but Japanese usually uses the
sentence-final particle かな: kana (which has an alternative かしら used only by
women). It basically marks uncertainty from the speaker concerning the
statement given by the sentence:
待っててくれるかな: Mattete kureru kana: I wonder if they'll wait for me (the
sentence "mattete kureru" simply means "they're waiting for me" or "they'll
wait for me").
kana/kashira is quite informal however. In more formal settings, the
standard way to indicate uncertainty is to form a polite question (with か:
ka following a polite verb form) and add to it the sentence-final particle
ね: ne, which on its own simply asks for approval: "isn't it? right?". Here
are a few examples to illustrate, based on the sentence いいです: ii desu: it
is good, it is OK:
いいですか: ii desu ka: "Is it OK?" (simple question, may be answered by yes or
no)
いいですね: ii desu ne: "It's OK, isn't it?" (asking for approval from the
listener)
いいですかね: ii desu ka ne: "I wonder if it's OK" (more uncertainty from the
speaker compared to the previous one)
Now, some people will say that adding more than one sentence-final particle
to a sentence is not allowed in Japanese. Don't listen to them. This
construction is perfectly standard and understood everywhere in Japan.
Finally, if you just want to say "I wonder..." (i.e. without a subclause
after it), in Japanese one uses expressions like どうかな: dou kana (informal,
male and female), どうかしら: dou kashira (informal, female only) どうですかね: dou
desu ka ne (polite).
--
Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets.
http://christophoronomicon.blogspot.com/
http://www.christophoronomicon.nl/
Messages in this topic (3)
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5c. Re: "I wonder..." in verb-final languages
Posted by: "Roger Mills" [email protected]
Date: Fri Jul 26, 2013 5:38 am ((PDT))
Not particularly OT, but in Kash (not verb final) "to wonder" is expressed as
'to ask oneself', e.g. me manuwak pun.... 'I [ask myself] wonder if....', netu
yanuwak pun... 'he/she wonders if... '
Years ago, when I breifly hung around with a French couple in Indonesia, I
think I heard them say 'je me demande....' for 'I wonder'. Is that correct,
Christophe?? I've no idea how to say it in Indonesian.
Your Japanese exs. are interesting-- what does "dou" mean, precisely, in the
last exs.?
________________________________
From: Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, July 26, 2013 4:00 AM
Subject: Re: "I wonder..." in verb-final languages
On 26 July 2013 08:55, MorphemeAddict <[email protected]> wrote:
> How do Japanese, Koreans, Turks, and others who speak verb-final languages
> express the simple (at least to me) thought of "I wonder..."?
>
> stevo
>
I don't know about other languages, but Japanese usually uses the
sentence-final particle かな: kana (which has an alternative かしら used only by
women). It basically marks uncertainty from the speaker concerning the
statement given by the sentence:
待っててくれるかな: Mattete kureru kana: I wonder if they'll wait for me (the
sentence "mattete kureru" simply means "they're waiting for me" or "they'll
wait for me").
kana/kashira is quite informal however. In more formal settings, the
standard way to indicate uncertainty is to form a polite question (with か:
ka following a polite verb form) and add to it the sentence-final particle
ね: ne, which on its own simply asks for approval: "isn't it? right?". Here
are a few examples to illustrate, based on the sentence いいです: ii desu: it
is good, it is OK:
いいですか: ii desu ka: "Is it OK?" (simple question, may be answered by yes or
no)
いいですね: ii desu ne: "It's OK, isn't it?" (asking for approval from the
listener)
いいですかね: ii desu ka ne: "I wonder if it's OK" (more uncertainty from the
speaker compared to the previous one)
Now, some people will say that adding more than one sentence-final particle
to a sentence is not allowed in Japanese. Don't listen to them. This
construction is perfectly standard and understood everywhere in Japan.
Finally, if you just want to say "I wonder..." (i.e. without a subclause
after it), in Japanese one uses expressions like どうかな: dou kana (informal,
male and female), どうかしら: dou kashira (informal, female only) どうですかね: dou
desu ka ne (polite).
--
Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets.
http://christophoronomicon.blogspot.com/
http://www.christophoronomicon.nl/
Messages in this topic (3)
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