There are 15 messages in this issue. Topics in this digest:
1a. Re: Tongue-twisters From: George Corley 1b. Re: Tongue-twisters From: Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews 1c. Re: Tongue-twisters From: kechpaja 1d. Re: Tongue-twisters From: Anthony Miles 1e. Re: Tongue-twisters From: Cedh Audmanh 2a. How does singing interact with voiceless phonemes? From: Matthew George 2b. Re: How does singing interact with voiceless phonemes? From: Daniel Myers 2c. Re: How does singing interact with voiceless phonemes? From: Adam Walker 2d. Re: How does singing interact with voiceless phonemes? From: Ralph DeCarli 3. Pronouns: Siye Revision From: Anthony Miles 4a. Beautiful vowel diagrams using LaTeX From: H. S. Teoh 4b. Re: Beautiful vowel diagrams using LaTeX From: Jyri Lehtinen 5a. "I wonder..." in verb-final languages From: MorphemeAddict 5b. Re: "I wonder..." in verb-final languages From: Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets 5c. Re: "I wonder..." in verb-final languages From: Roger Mills Messages ________________________________________________________________________ 1a. Re: Tongue-twisters Posted by: "George Corley" gacor...@gmail.com Date: Thu Jul 25, 2013 12:08 pm ((PDT)) I've never really developed enough vocabulary to make a good tongue twister. IMO, in order to make an authentic tongue-twister, you need a fairly established lexicon first, so that you can start searching through your words for particular sounds and end up writing something appropriately nonsensical. On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 8:16 AM, Leonardo Castro <leolucas1...@gmail.com>wrote: > 2013/7/25 H. S. Teoh <hst...@quickfur.ath.cx>: > > Do yall's conlangs have tongue-twisters? > > Only if things like "kiei kiese-kei kuasu" are considered > tongue-twisters... > > > > > I just discovered one in my alien conlang. It's a *literal* > > tongue-twister: > > > > er ehrlu. > > [,Er'ExR\_0lU] > > one tongue > > > > The twister is in the first two syllables, which goes from a voiced > > alveolar trill [r] to an unvoiced uvular trill [R\_0] in a single > > syllable. Say it fast enough, and you start getting the trill-cluster > > [rR\_0], rather like a tiger's growl. :-P The fact that the phrase > > literally means "one tongue" is an unintentional coincidence. :-) > > > > Well, in this case, it's not strictly speaking a *tongue* twister, but a > > lingual-uvular twister. :-P (I'd throw in [B\] just for the fun of it, > > then it'd be a labio-lingual-uvular twister, but alas (or is that > > *fortunately*?), this conlang doesn't have any /B\/.) > > > > > > T > > > > -- > > Gone Chopin. Bach in a minuet. > Messages in this topic (7) ________________________________________________________________________ 1b. Re: Tongue-twisters Posted by: "Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews" goldyemo...@gmail.com Date: Thu Jul 25, 2013 1:23 pm ((PDT)) I'm guessing you need to know how tongue twisters work. That would be an interesting exercise. Thanks, that's a good game for Yemorans to play. But would it really be called a tongue twister on another planet? Mellissa Green @GreenNovelist -----Original Message----- From: Constructed Languages List [mailto:conl...@listserv.brown.edu] On Behalf Of George Corley Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2013 3:08 PM To: conl...@listserv.brown.edu Subject: Re: Tongue-twisters I've never really developed enough vocabulary to make a good tongue twister. IMO, in order to make an authentic tongue-twister, you need a fairly established lexicon first, so that you can start searching through your words for particular sounds and end up writing something appropriately nonsensical. On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 8:16 AM, Leonardo Castro <leolucas1...@gmail.com>wrote: > 2013/7/25 H. S. Teoh <hst...@quickfur.ath.cx>: > > Do yall's conlangs have tongue-twisters? > > Only if things like "kiei kiese-kei kuasu" are considered > tongue-twisters... > > > > > I just discovered one in my alien conlang. It's a *literal* > > tongue-twister: > > > > er ehrlu. > > [,Er'ExR\_0lU] > > one tongue > > > > The twister is in the first two syllables, which goes from a voiced > > alveolar trill [r] to an unvoiced uvular trill [R\_0] in a single > > syllable. Say it fast enough, and you start getting the trill-cluster > > [rR\_0], rather like a tiger's growl. :-P The fact that the phrase > > literally means "one tongue" is an unintentional coincidence. :-) > > > > Well, in this case, it's not strictly speaking a *tongue* twister, but a > > lingual-uvular twister. :-P (I'd throw in [B\] just for the fun of it, > > then it'd be a labio-lingual-uvular twister, but alas (or is that > > *fortunately*?), this conlang doesn't have any /B\/.) > > > > > > T > > > > -- > > Gone Chopin. Bach in a minuet. > Messages in this topic (7) ________________________________________________________________________ 1c. Re: Tongue-twisters Posted by: "kechpaja" kechp...@comcast.net Date: Thu Jul 25, 2013 1:32 pm ((PDT)) On Thu, 25 Jul 2013 16:23:31 -0400 Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews <goldyemo...@gmail.com> wrote: > But would it really be > called a tongue twister on another planet? Probably not. Every language has a different term for the tongue-twister. In German, it's a "Zungenbrecher" ("tongue-breaker"). In Russian, it's "скороговорка" ("quick-saying", /sk@r@g6'vOrk@/). You might want to try translating "tongue twister" into different languages on Google Translate (or in a dictionary; they usually have terms like that listed separately), and see what comes up. -Kelvin -- kechpaja <kechp...@comcast.net> Messages in this topic (7) ________________________________________________________________________ 1d. Re: Tongue-twisters Posted by: "Anthony Miles" mamercu...@gmail.com Date: Thu Jul 25, 2013 3:09 pm ((PDT)) The tongue-twister for SSL (Siye as a second language) are 1) the sibilants (sa, tsa, sha, shcha, cha) 2) the nasals (ma, na). Siye (Shee-yeh) is full of words such as /susumsuyamsoya/ (soo-suhng-soo-yang-so-ya) 'the two messengers' and /sasisonemenanumo/ (sa-shee-so-neh-meh-nah-noo-mo) 'has he stopped singing about you?' Messages in this topic (7) ________________________________________________________________________ 1e. Re: Tongue-twisters Posted by: "Cedh Audmanh" cedh_audm...@yahoo.de Date: Fri Jul 26, 2013 2:58 am ((PDT)) On Wed, 24 Jul 2013 22:04:17 -0700, H. S. Teoh wrote: > Do yall's conlangs have tongue-twisters? I have a fairly complex one in Tmaśareʔ: Orthography: Hakwakakpahcǫʔ ckǫkahkya kmeʔkayahpamomǫʔ kwoco haktahkakahpoʔ kohpco kwahmomǫʔma, kąta kcehkpehkekehkoʔ kwihkwoʔ sąkma kehće Kąʔkokwohoʔkęʔ ǫkśokmąką ckehtakweckwekńǫkiʔkwi? IPA: [ ˌhʌkʷʌkʌˈkpɑxtsɔ̃ʔ tskɔ̃ˈkɑxkjʌ kmɛʔˈkɑjɑxˌpʌmʊˌmɔ̃ʔ ˈkʷotsʊ hʌˌktɑxkʌˈkɑxpɔʔ ˌkɔxptsʊ ˈkʷɑxmʊˌmɔ̃ʔmʌ | ˌkɑ̃tʌ ˌktsɛxˌkpɛxkɛˈkɛxkɔʔ ˈkʷiçkʷɔʔ ˌsɑ̃kmʌ ˌkɛxtʃe ˈkɑ̃ʔkʊkʷoˌhɔʔkɛ̃ʔ ɔ̃ˈkʃokmɑ̃kɑ̃ ˈtskɛ̃xtʌˌkʷɛtskʷɛkɲɔ̃ˌkiʔkʷi ] X-SAMPA: [ ,hVk_wVkV'kpAxtsO~? tskO~'kAxkjV kmE?'kAjAx,pVmU,mO~? 'k_wotsU hV,ktAxkV'kAxpO? ,kOxptsU 'k_wAxmU,mO~?mV | ,kA~tV ,ktsEx,kpExkE'kExkO? 'k_wiCk_wO? ,sA~kmV ,kExtSe 'kA~?kUk_wo,hO?kE~? O~'kSokmA~kA~ 'tskE~xtV,k_wEtsk_wEkJO~,ki?k_wi ] Gloss: Hakwakakpahcǫʔ ckǫkahkya kmeʔkayahpamomǫʔ kwoco hakwa=ka~kpahcǫ-oʔ ckǫ=ka~kaya-Ø k-mek-kayahpa-mo-mę-oʔ kwoco near=PL~forest-GEN serious=PL~fire-ABS 3PL-INSTR-burn-CPL-VN-GEN after haktahkakahpoʔ kohpco kwahmomǫʔma, ha=ktah=ka~kahpa-oʔ kohpa-co kwahi-mo-mę-oʔ=ʔma all=suitable=PL~tree-GEN follow-ADV be_gone-CPL-VN-GEN=and, kąta kcehkpehkekehkoʔ kwihkwoʔ sąkma kehće kąta kceh=kpeh=ke~kehka-oʔ kwihkwe-oʔ sąkma kehće now dirty=dry=PL~rock-GEN OBV.IV.PL-GEN made_of instead Kąʔkokwohoʔkęʔ ǫkśokmąką ckęhtakweckwekńǫkiʔkwi? kąʔ=ko~kwoho-oʔ-kę-eʔ ǫk-śokmąką-Ø c-kęhta-<kwece>-kwe-kńǫ-kiʔk-wi black=PL~wolf-GEN-FEMALE-ERG 1PL-dwelling-ABS BEN-build-<pillar>-ASS-3>3.III-PROG-Q Translation: After the nearby forests have burned down in serious fires and all the suitable trees are gone as a result, I assume She of the Black Wolves is now building pillars for our dwelling from those dirty dry rocks instead? - Jan Messages in this topic (7) ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ 2a. How does singing interact with voiceless phonemes? Posted by: "Matthew George" matt....@gmail.com Date: Thu Jul 25, 2013 12:55 pm ((PDT)) I am considering making my conlang's phonemes either all voiceless or all voiced - it seems nicely alien to lack vocal chords. Further, I remember reading suggestions that heavy emphasis on voicing makes words seem 'nastier', with examples given of how Tolkien made Orcish seem harsh and barbaric. So I was leaning towards voicelessness. But no chords means no singing, too, which is rather a shame; I like the idea of a language that is always sung. Which then made me wonder: in languages where phonemes are distinguished by voicing, how do we recognize them in sung speech? Human singing necessarily involves voicing to create a tone. Do we simply perceive the phonemes that make sense in context (the way we don't thinking about the last sound in "dogs" being /z/), or are degrees of volume or similar features permitted to vary by singers to distinguish between phonemes? Matt G. Messages in this topic (4) ________________________________________________________________________ 2b. Re: How does singing interact with voiceless phonemes? Posted by: "Daniel Myers" d...@dmmyers.com Date: Thu Jul 25, 2013 1:59 pm ((PDT)) >From my experience with choral music, I know that good vocalists are trained to sing certain phonemes differently than they are spoken. Plosives and stops (voiced or unvoiced, but especially the unvoiced) can sound amplified or emphasized, and are therefore intentionally de-emphasized. There's a related problem with diphthongs, usually illustrated by a song that draws out the word "hallelujah". This was demonstrated nicely in a nightmare scene in the movie Ordinary People. T and P are often replaced with very light D and B to prevent a popping sound. Syllables ending in sibilants, aspirants, or liquids that are drawn out are sung so that the preceding vowel is stretched out and the final sound is as short as possible (I've heard novice choirs that didn't do this and sounded like a bunch of snakes or bees). On the flip side, there are some vocal pieces that intentionally use this to achieve a desired effect. - Doc > -------- Original Message -------- > Subject: How does singing interact with voiceless phonemes? > From: Matthew George <matt....@gmail.com> > Date: Thu, July 25, 2013 3:55 pm > To: conl...@listserv.brown.edu > > > I am considering making my conlang's phonemes either all voiceless or all > voiced - it seems nicely alien to lack vocal chords. Further, I remember > reading suggestions that heavy emphasis on voicing makes words seem > 'nastier', with examples given of how Tolkien made Orcish seem harsh and > barbaric. So I was leaning towards voicelessness. But no chords means no > singing, too, which is rather a shame; I like the idea of a language that > is always sung. > > Which then made me wonder: in languages where phonemes are distinguished > by voicing, how do we recognize them in sung speech? Human singing > necessarily involves voicing to create a tone. Do we simply perceive the > phonemes that make sense in context (the way we don't thinking about the > last sound in "dogs" being /z/), or are degrees of volume or similar > features permitted to vary by singers to distinguish between phonemes? > > Matt G. Messages in this topic (4) ________________________________________________________________________ 2c. Re: How does singing interact with voiceless phonemes? Posted by: "Adam Walker" carra...@gmail.com Date: Thu Jul 25, 2013 2:01 pm ((PDT)) You might search for songs being sung in Cheyenne or Totonac since they both include devoiced vowels. Adam On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 2:55 PM, Matthew George <matt....@gmail.com> wrote: > I am considering making my conlang's phonemes either all voiceless or all > voiced - it seems nicely alien to lack vocal chords. Further, I remember > reading suggestions that heavy emphasis on voicing makes words seem > 'nastier', with examples given of how Tolkien made Orcish seem harsh and > barbaric. So I was leaning towards voicelessness. But no chords means no > singing, too, which is rather a shame; I like the idea of a language that > is always sung. > > Which then made me wonder: in languages where phonemes are distinguished > by voicing, how do we recognize them in sung speech? Human singing > necessarily involves voicing to create a tone. Do we simply perceive the > phonemes that make sense in context (the way we don't thinking about the > last sound in "dogs" being /z/), or are degrees of volume or similar > features permitted to vary by singers to distinguish between phonemes? > > Matt G. > Messages in this topic (4) ________________________________________________________________________ 2d. Re: How does singing interact with voiceless phonemes? Posted by: "Ralph DeCarli" omniv...@sysmatrix.net Date: Thu Jul 25, 2013 6:09 pm ((PDT)) On Thu, 25 Jul 2013 15:55:16 -0400 Matthew George <matt....@gmail.com> wrote: > I am considering making my conlang's phonemes either all voiceless > or all voiced - it seems nicely alien to lack vocal chords. > Further, I remember reading suggestions that heavy emphasis on > voicing makes words seem 'nastier', with examples given of how > Tolkien made Orcish seem harsh and barbaric. So I was leaning > towards voicelessness. But no chords means no singing, too, which > is rather a shame; I like the idea of a language that is always > sung. > If the speech was mostly 'percussive' I would think poetry would tend to sound like beat-boxing. Tones would creep in through 'slides'. Repeat "Pew! Pew! Pew!" (extra plosive?) without vocalizing. Do your aliens have an airway that can change shape and size? Ralph -- Have you heard of the new post-neo-modern art style? They haven't decided what it looks like yet. Messages in this topic (4) ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ 3. Pronouns: Siye Revision Posted by: "Anthony Miles" mamercu...@gmail.com Date: Thu Jul 25, 2013 2:23 pm ((PDT)) I've revised and rewritten my sections on Frathwiki on pronouns in Siye, both as free pronouns and as pronominal prefixes and pronominal grammatical number suffixes. It's quite detailed now, but if I've forgotten something, or am not sufficiently clear, please advise/ask/complain. http://www.frathwiki.com/Siye#Pronouns http://www.frathwiki.com/Siye#Verb_Structure Messages in this topic (1) ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ 4a. Beautiful vowel diagrams using LaTeX Posted by: "H. S. Teoh" hst...@quickfur.ath.cx Date: Thu Jul 25, 2013 10:20 pm ((PDT)) Just found this today: http://www.ctan.org/pkg/vowel It's a package that lets you draw print-quality vowel diagrams in LaTeX. Apparently, it's been around for a while, even packaged as part of the IPA fonts package TIPA which I have installed, yet I've never noticed it until now. I'm duly impressed... and going off to typeset my conlang grammars in LaTeX now. :) T -- Freedom of speech: the whole world has no right *not* to hear my spouting off! Messages in this topic (2) ________________________________________________________________________ 4b. Re: Beautiful vowel diagrams using LaTeX Posted by: "Jyri Lehtinen" lehtinen.j...@gmail.com Date: Fri Jul 26, 2013 3:24 am ((PDT)) That's some nice automation there. I think I'm still going to use plain tabular for my needs because rectangular grids work perfectly fine for a phonemic feature based grouping, but this doesn't take away the niceness of this package. Maybe it could be possible to use this a a basis for showing free variation in small vowel systems by drawing the allowed vowel areas as an overlay on top of the diagram. Proper alignment of the two layers could be a problem though. -Jyri 2013/7/26 H. S. Teoh <hst...@quickfur.ath.cx> > Just found this today: > > http://www.ctan.org/pkg/vowel > > It's a package that lets you draw print-quality vowel diagrams in LaTeX. > Apparently, it's been around for a while, even packaged as part of the > IPA fonts package TIPA which I have installed, yet I've never noticed it > until now. > > I'm duly impressed... and going off to typeset my conlang grammars in > LaTeX now. :) > > > T > > -- > Freedom of speech: the whole world has no right *not* to hear my spouting > off! > Messages in this topic (2) ________________________________________________________________________ ________________________________________________________________________ 5a. "I wonder..." in verb-final languages Posted by: "MorphemeAddict" lytl...@gmail.com Date: Thu Jul 25, 2013 11:56 pm ((PDT)) How do Japanese, Koreans, Turks, and others who speak verb-final languages express the simple (at least to me) thought of "I wonder..."? stevo Messages in this topic (3) ________________________________________________________________________ 5b. Re: "I wonder..." in verb-final languages Posted by: "Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets" tsela...@gmail.com Date: Fri Jul 26, 2013 1:00 am ((PDT)) On 26 July 2013 08:55, MorphemeAddict <lytl...@gmail.com> wrote: > How do Japanese, Koreans, Turks, and others who speak verb-final languages > express the simple (at least to me) thought of "I wonder..."? > > stevo > I don't know about other languages, but Japanese usually uses the sentence-final particle かな: kana (which has an alternative かしら used only by women). It basically marks uncertainty from the speaker concerning the statement given by the sentence: 待っててくれるかな: Mattete kureru kana: I wonder if they'll wait for me (the sentence "mattete kureru" simply means "they're waiting for me" or "they'll wait for me"). kana/kashira is quite informal however. In more formal settings, the standard way to indicate uncertainty is to form a polite question (with か: ka following a polite verb form) and add to it the sentence-final particle ね: ne, which on its own simply asks for approval: "isn't it? right?". Here are a few examples to illustrate, based on the sentence いいです: ii desu: it is good, it is OK: いいですか: ii desu ka: "Is it OK?" (simple question, may be answered by yes or no) いいですね: ii desu ne: "It's OK, isn't it?" (asking for approval from the listener) いいですかね: ii desu ka ne: "I wonder if it's OK" (more uncertainty from the speaker compared to the previous one) Now, some people will say that adding more than one sentence-final particle to a sentence is not allowed in Japanese. Don't listen to them. This construction is perfectly standard and understood everywhere in Japan. Finally, if you just want to say "I wonder..." (i.e. without a subclause after it), in Japanese one uses expressions like どうかな: dou kana (informal, male and female), どうかしら: dou kashira (informal, female only) どうですかね: dou desu ka ne (polite). -- Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets. http://christophoronomicon.blogspot.com/ http://www.christophoronomicon.nl/ Messages in this topic (3) ________________________________________________________________________ 5c. Re: "I wonder..." in verb-final languages Posted by: "Roger Mills" romi...@yahoo.com Date: Fri Jul 26, 2013 5:38 am ((PDT)) Not particularly OT, but in Kash (not verb final) "to wonder" is expressed as 'to ask oneself', e.g. me manuwak pun.... 'I [ask myself] wonder if....', netu yanuwak pun... 'he/she wonders if... ' Years ago, when I breifly hung around with a French couple in Indonesia, I think I heard them say 'je me demande....' for 'I wonder'. Is that correct, Christophe?? I've no idea how to say it in Indonesian. Your Japanese exs. are interesting-- what does "dou" mean, precisely, in the last exs.? ________________________________ From: Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets <tsela...@gmail.com> To: conl...@listserv.brown.edu Sent: Friday, July 26, 2013 4:00 AM Subject: Re: "I wonder..." in verb-final languages On 26 July 2013 08:55, MorphemeAddict <lytl...@gmail.com> wrote: > How do Japanese, Koreans, Turks, and others who speak verb-final languages > express the simple (at least to me) thought of "I wonder..."? > > stevo > I don't know about other languages, but Japanese usually uses the sentence-final particle かな: kana (which has an alternative かしら used only by women). It basically marks uncertainty from the speaker concerning the statement given by the sentence: 待っててくれるかな: Mattete kureru kana: I wonder if they'll wait for me (the sentence "mattete kureru" simply means "they're waiting for me" or "they'll wait for me"). kana/kashira is quite informal however. In more formal settings, the standard way to indicate uncertainty is to form a polite question (with か: ka following a polite verb form) and add to it the sentence-final particle ね: ne, which on its own simply asks for approval: "isn't it? right?". Here are a few examples to illustrate, based on the sentence いいです: ii desu: it is good, it is OK: いいですか: ii desu ka: "Is it OK?" (simple question, may be answered by yes or no) いいですね: ii desu ne: "It's OK, isn't it?" (asking for approval from the listener) いいですかね: ii desu ka ne: "I wonder if it's OK" (more uncertainty from the speaker compared to the previous one) Now, some people will say that adding more than one sentence-final particle to a sentence is not allowed in Japanese. Don't listen to them. This construction is perfectly standard and understood everywhere in Japan. Finally, if you just want to say "I wonder..." (i.e. without a subclause after it), in Japanese one uses expressions like どうかな: dou kana (informal, male and female), どうかしら: dou kashira (informal, female only) どうですかね: dou desu ka ne (polite). -- Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets. http://christophoronomicon.blogspot.com/ http://www.christophoronomicon.nl/ Messages in this topic (3) ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/conlang/ <*> Your email settings: Digest Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/conlang/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: conlang-nor...@yahoogroups.com conlang-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: conlang-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! 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