There are 4 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. Re: THEORY: Is Jespersen cycle a cycle?
From: Leonardo Castro
2a. Re: OT: Language in the 2009 Constitution of Bolivia.
From: Adam Walker
2b. Re: OT: Language in the 2009 Constitution of Bolivia.
From: Leonardo Castro
3a. Re: What if "and" was a verb?
From: Jyri Lehtinen
Messages
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1a. Re: THEORY: Is Jespersen cycle a cycle?
Posted by: "Leonardo Castro" leolucas1...@gmail.com
Date: Fri Aug 23, 2013 9:36 am ((PDT))
BTW, just now I realize that Jespersen cycle has not to do with the
position of the negative word in relation to the verb. It's a cycle
just because the same phenomenon happens over and over again.
Até mais!
Leonardo
2013/8/23 Leonardo Castro <leolucas1...@gmail.com>:
> Yesterday, I noted that something similar to the Jespersen cycle might
> have happened to the present continuous tense, in my 1st language and
> probably in English and other languages too.
>
> When I was going home, I called my wife to say "I'm going home"
> ("estou indo para casa"), but that "I'm going" was first understood
> that I was already to leave my work in a few minutes.
>
> Similarly, other words whose literal interpretation is more close to
> "now" or "right now" are frequently used in the sense of "in a few
> minutes", probably because people abuse them for their spouses and
> parents not to keep asking them on the phone "why aren't they already
> coming".
>
> What is more strange is that words that should reinforce the sense of
> "now" sometimes just make clearer the sense of "soon". In pt-BR, "Já!"
> is "Now!", but "Já, já..." is almost surely "Soon...". "Agora" is
> "now", but "agora mesmo" is also "soon".
>
> Abuse of the word "literally" seems to be moving its meaning towards
> "figuratively":
> http://edition.cnn.com/2013/08/15/living/literally-definition
>
> So, it seems that the Jespersen cycle is a case of a broader
> phenomenon. Is there already a name for this type of "weaking of
> meaning" that can lead to change of meaning?
>
> What if the word "negative" is supressed from the following text?
>
> "The history of negative expressions in various languages makes us
> witness the following curious fluctuation: the original negative
> adverb is first weakened, then found insufficient and therefore
> strengthened, generally through some additional word, and this in turn
> may be felt as the negative proper and may then in the course of time
> be subject to the same development as the original word."
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jespersen's_Cycle
> http://people.ds.cam.ac.uk/dwew2/network_meeting_handout_english.pdf
>
>
> Até mais!
>
> Leonardo
Messages in this topic (13)
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2a. Re: OT: Language in the 2009 Constitution of Bolivia.
Posted by: "Adam Walker" carra...@gmail.com
Date: Fri Aug 23, 2013 12:40 pm ((PDT))
This is way, Way, WAY over the line into NCNC. The only reason this hasn't
errupted into a flame war is the lack of Bolivian, Peruvian or Chilean list
members to vent their spleen. Can we end this now?
Adam
On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 7:15 AM, Leonardo Castro <leolucas1...@gmail.com>wrote:
> 2013/8/20 Padraic Brown <elemti...@yahoo.com>:
> > I fully agree that a road running along the border is probably not a
> good idea
> > too many cans of worms there. A solution I would propose is to simply
> provide
> > select Bolivian transport companies with some kind of pass that allows
> screened
> > drivers & trucks to cross the border with minimal delay, allows these
> same truckers
> > and their rigs to stop and rest at sanctioned truck stops along the
> assigned route and
> > allows the goods to be brought into / out of the port with minimal
> headache. I'm not
> > saying it needs to be free, and I'm not saying these drivers have free
> license to go
> > anywhere in Peru they wish to go. A simple GPS monitor on the truck, the
> trailer
> > and the driver ought to be sufficient to ensure that none of them gets
> too far away
> > from where they're allowed to be. Obviously Peru ought to be justly
> > compensated for the imposition, so some sort of equitable payment
> structure could
> > be worked out. A potential phase II could be some level of actual
> Bolivian port authority
> > within selected Peruvian ports. Perhaps they could operate some kind of
> joint oversight,
> > along with Peru, which would further facilitate Bolivia's needs and
> would link up with the
> > road corridor already in place. Ultimately, the goal as I see it would
> be a system
> > whereby Bolivia makes use of and pays for Peruvian infrastructure a
> kind of
> > minimal rental, if you will but where Bolivia works with Peru in
> regards to ordinary
> > operations and exercises its own oversight over its own trucking in the
> region. The solution
> > would recognise Bolivia's needs and provide a means for them to quickly
> and inexpensively
> > move goods to and fro; it would also respect Peru's sovereignty and
> right to determine who
> > can cross the border. Violating transport companies would, naturally,
> lose their priviledge,
> > and would also suffer consequences in both countries.
> >
> > So, not quite an entirely open border, and this would not allow just
> anyone to
> > cross; neither a cession of national territory nor a complex project
> that would
> > require lots of money to build (since the roads and port facilities
> already exist).
> > No one loses face, everyone benefits and everyone looks good to boot:
> Bolivia
> > gets a port and easy access; Peru gets some cash and looks good on the
> regional
> > and world stage; I get a Nobel Prize for solving the problem! ;))))))))))
> >
> > Padraic
>
> What is preventing you from winning a Nobel Prize might be the article
> 267 of the Bolivian Constitution that claims "sovereignty" over the
> territory that allows Bolivian access to the sea:
>
>
> "Artículo 267
>
> I. El Estado boliviano declara su derecho irrenunciable e
> imprescriptible sobre el territorio que le dé acceso al océano
> Pacífico y su espacio marítimo.
>
> II. La solución efectiva al diferendo marítimo a través de medios
> pacíficos y el ejercicio pleno de la soberanía sobre dicho territorio
> constituyen objetivos permanentes e irrenunciables del Estado
> boliviano."
>
>
> >
> >> Até mais!
> >>
> >> Leonardo
>
Messages in this topic (11)
________________________________________________________________________
2b. Re: OT: Language in the 2009 Constitution of Bolivia.
Posted by: "Leonardo Castro" leolucas1...@gmail.com
Date: Fri Aug 23, 2013 1:12 pm ((PDT))
OK. I'm sorry.
Até mais!
Leonardo
2013/8/23 Adam Walker <carra...@gmail.com>:
> This is way, Way, WAY over the line into NCNC. The only reason this hasn't
> errupted into a flame war is the lack of Bolivian, Peruvian or Chilean list
> members to vent their spleen. Can we end this now?
>
> Adam
>
>
> On Fri, Aug 23, 2013 at 7:15 AM, Leonardo Castro
> <leolucas1...@gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> 2013/8/20 Padraic Brown <elemti...@yahoo.com>:
>> > I fully agree that a road running along the border is probably not a
>> good idea
>> > too many cans of worms there. A solution I would propose is to simply
>> provide
>> > select Bolivian transport companies with some kind of pass that allows
>> screened
>> > drivers & trucks to cross the border with minimal delay, allows these
>> same truckers
>> > and their rigs to stop and rest at sanctioned truck stops along the
>> assigned route and
>> > allows the goods to be brought into / out of the port with minimal
>> headache. I'm not
>> > saying it needs to be free, and I'm not saying these drivers have free
>> license to go
>> > anywhere in Peru they wish to go. A simple GPS monitor on the truck, the
>> trailer
>> > and the driver ought to be sufficient to ensure that none of them gets
>> too far away
>> > from where they're allowed to be. Obviously Peru ought to be justly
>> > compensated for the imposition, so some sort of equitable payment
>> structure could
>> > be worked out. A potential phase II could be some level of actual
>> Bolivian port authority
>> > within selected Peruvian ports. Perhaps they could operate some kind of
>> joint oversight,
>> > along with Peru, which would further facilitate Bolivia's needs and
>> would link up with the
>> > road corridor already in place. Ultimately, the goal as I see it would
>> be a system
>> > whereby Bolivia makes use of and pays for Peruvian infrastructure a
>> kind of
>> > minimal rental, if you will but where Bolivia works with Peru in
>> regards to ordinary
>> > operations and exercises its own oversight over its own trucking in the
>> region. The solution
>> > would recognise Bolivia's needs and provide a means for them to quickly
>> and inexpensively
>> > move goods to and fro; it would also respect Peru's sovereignty and
>> right to determine who
>> > can cross the border. Violating transport companies would, naturally,
>> lose their priviledge,
>> > and would also suffer consequences in both countries.
>> >
>> > So, not quite an entirely open border, and this would not allow just
>> anyone to
>> > cross; neither a cession of national territory nor a complex project
>> that would
>> > require lots of money to build (since the roads and port facilities
>> already exist).
>> > No one loses face, everyone benefits and everyone looks good to boot:
>> Bolivia
>> > gets a port and easy access; Peru gets some cash and looks good on the
>> regional
>> > and world stage; I get a Nobel Prize for solving the problem! ;))))))))))
>> >
>> > Padraic
>>
>> What is preventing you from winning a Nobel Prize might be the article
>> 267 of the Bolivian Constitution that claims "sovereignty" over the
>> territory that allows Bolivian access to the sea:
>>
>>
>> "Artículo 267
>>
>> I. El Estado boliviano declara su derecho irrenunciable e
>> imprescriptible sobre el territorio que le dé acceso al océano
>> Pacífico y su espacio marítimo.
>>
>> II. La solución efectiva al diferendo marítimo a través de medios
>> pacíficos y el ejercicio pleno de la soberanía sobre dicho territorio
>> constituyen objetivos permanentes e irrenunciables del Estado
>> boliviano."
>>
>>
>> >
>> >> Até mais!
>> >>
>> >> Leonardo
>>
Messages in this topic (11)
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________________________________________________________________________
3a. Re: What if "and" was a verb?
Posted by: "Jyri Lehtinen" lehtinen.j...@gmail.com
Date: Fri Aug 23, 2013 2:53 pm ((PDT))
2013/8/22 George Corley <gacor...@gmail.com>
> On Thu, Aug 22, 2013 at 11:25 AM, Garth Wallace <gwa...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >
> > Wow, and here I rejected my idea of using a verb for "if" as unrealistic.
> >
>
> Hmmm, what would the agreement morphology look like for your "if"? "If"
> controls a clause rather than NPs, so if your verbs have any agreement
> morphology you'd have to figure out how "if" with a clausal compliment
> works there.
>
Actually when I think of it, deriving "if" from a verb sound easier than
doing the same for "and". Consider a language where you derive conditional
clauses from marking their verbs for progressive aspect in the manner of
"If he comes, I'll see him." = "He is coming, I'll see him."
Marking progressives with light auxiliary verbs such as "do" or "be" isn't
too odd at all (see English "is coming" for come+PROG) and especially if
the language is prone to serialising verbs this sounds like the most
natural way to do it. So let's say that our language constructs
progressives by serialising the content verb with the light verb "do".
Let's also mark both the subject and object on the verb to demonstrate how
the agreement patterns could work. The example sentence would thus be
he come-SG3.S do-SG3.S, I see-SG1.S-SG3.O he
"If he comes, I'll see him."
Now it's essentially only the verb "do" that marks the first clause as a
conditional clause and we might equally well gloss it as "if",
he come-SG3.S if-SG3.S, I see-SG1.S-SG3.O he
The agreement pattern for the verbal "if" is then just the same as for the
content verb of the conditional clause as it's really just a part of the
same complex predicate. We could do the same structure also without
serialisation by having the originally progressive marking verb take a
nominal form of the content verb as its complement (again like "is coming"
in English),
he come-NR if-SG3.S, I see-SG1.S-SG3.O he
Now it's very clear that the if-verb is heading the conditional clause and
quite naturally takes the person agreement that would logically belong to
the content verb of the clause.
This system can also be extended into distinguishing between real and
irreal conditions or in other words between "when" and "if" by
distinguishing indicative and some irreal mood on the if-verb,
he come-SG3.S if/when-SG3.S, I see-SG1.S-SG3.O he
"When he comes, I'll see him."
vs.
he come-SG3.S if/when-IRR-SG3.S, I see-SG1.S-SG3.O he
"If he comes, I'll see him."
-Jyri
Messages in this topic (9)
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