[conlang] Digest Number 9466

[conlang]

There are 9 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

1a. Re: Concision in your conlang vs your L1    
    From: Herman Miller
1b. Re: Concision in your conlang vs your L1    
    From: C. Brickner
1c. Re: Concision in your conlang vs your L1    
    From: Leonardo Castro
1d. Re: Concision in your conlang vs your L1    
    From: Anaïs Ahmed
1e. Re: Concision in your conlang vs your L1    
    From: Roger Mills

2a. Re: I am sure    
    From: Douglas Koller
2b. Re: I am sure    
    From: C. Brickner

3.1. META: Conlang-L FAQ    
    From: Henrik Theiling

4. Is It True That Left-Handed People Are Smarter Than Right-Handed Peo    
    From: Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews


Messages
________________________________________________________________________
1a. Re: Concision in your conlang vs your L1
    Posted by: "Herman Miller" hmil...@prismnet.com 
    Date: Sat Aug 31, 2013 9:36 am ((PDT))

On 8/30/2013 11:16 PM, Daniel Bowman wrote:
> I recently retranslated Frank Herbert's Litany against Fear, and I
> was once again struck by the fact that Angosey tends to be "wordier"
> than English.  That is, my words have more syllables, and it seems
> like I mark a lot of grammar as prefixes and suffixes.  I explain
> this at the end of my blog post as because Angosey is solely written,
> and because it's only in written form I have unconsciously made extra
> effort to make up for the fact that other contextual clues (facial
> expression, tone of voice, etc) are entirely absent from my
> experience of the language.
>
> What are your experiences?  For those who do not have a stated goal
> either way, are your languages "wordier" (in the sense that it takes
> more glyphs, be they Roman or otherwise) to convey the same meaning
> compared to your L1?

Jarda had a tendency to be about as concise as English, or more so. 
Jarda has a lot of monosyllabic roots and affixes, so a word like 
"declaration" becomes "skaṛag" in Jarda.

skaṛ "to declare"
-ag (a verbal noun suffix)

As for 2-syllable roots in Jarda, many of them are names for animals and 
plants (possibly borrowed from other languages), and only a few of the 
rest are longer than the equivalent English words. E.g., ļêłig "chalk", 
Ä·ufê "box", varka "coat", zaÄ·i "cheese".

Jarda has no indefinite articles, only definite articles, so that saves 
some time. Many adjectives in English are verbs in Jarda, so you don't 
need a form of "to be" in sentences like "the box is empty" or "the 
cheese is delicious".

lüb ka Ä·ufê
empty the box

ņüm ka zaķi
delicious the cheese

It can be a pretty compact language. Examples from the Relay 18 text:

kel-zêv-ô jô kip-vo rêł-vôd diṛ
begin-move.around-PRES again corner-LOC carve-form small
A small carved form starts to move around again on the corner.

liṛ-vi run-i gru, ņaz-ŏs krağ rêł
arm-LOC man-GEN young, awaken-IMPF bat.dragon carve
In the arm of a young man, a carved bat-dragon awakens.

There's a lot of things I liked about Jarda, but I think I wasn't very 
happy with how it sounded, and for one reason or another I switched to 
Tirelat. Recently I've gone back to Jarda, but Tirelat is still probably 
the most fully developed of my languages.

Tirelat can be more verbose than English because of all the required 
grammatical bits, e.g.

sy kinež jĕ-nama-de-z vë ghlapi jĕ-rondu
NOM.SG cup 3s.NOM-is.at-OBS.NP-IMPF LOC.SG table 3s.POSS-top
the cup is on the table

where English "is" becomes "jĕnamadez" in Tirelat. It's got the third 
person singular nominative agreement prefix "jĕ-", the observed non-past 
tense-evidential suffix "-de", and the imperfective aspect suffix "-z". 
Also note that English "on" translates as "at the top of", and the word 
for "top" is two syllables to begin with.

In Jarda:

ðiz ka wel-ka ka ğlôļ
support the table-ERG the cup
the cup is on the table





Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________
1b. Re: Concision in your conlang vs your L1
    Posted by: "C. Brickner" tepeyach...@embarqmail.com 
    Date: Sat Aug 31, 2013 11:46 am ((PDT))

----- Original Message -----
On 8/30/2013 11:16 PM, Daniel Bowman wrote:
> What are your experiences?  For those who do not have a stated goal
> either way, are your languages "wordier" (in the sense that it takes
> more glyphs, be they Roman or otherwise) to convey the same meaning
> compared to your L1?

I would say that Senjecas is a fairly concise language.
1) The majority of words are bisyllabic, a monosyllabic root and a grammatical 
suffix.  The most complete example I can use is the verb ‘tírsa’, defy, 
from which is derived ‘tírsas’, defiance; ‘tírsis’, defiant; 
‘tìrsu’, nevertheless; ‘tìrsa’, despite; ‘tìrsi’, although.  The 
agent suffix, however,  does have two syllables: ‘tirsóónus’, defier.

2) All postpositions, with three monosyllabic exceptions, are bisyllabic.  
There are two categories which I call original and derived.  These latter are 
derived from verbs.  Thus, from ‘rééga’, help, is derived ‘rèèga’, with 
help: ‘mùs rèèga’, with my help.

3) There is neither indefinite nor definite article.

4) Senjecas is pro-drop.

5) Attributive adjectives can be used as verbs: ‘ɱááno ívkos’, the empty 
box; ‘ívkos ɱáána’, the box is empty.

6) There are several instances of elision.

7) The use of absolute expressions: ‘nertós e-topaþós’, when the army had 
arrived.

8) The use of phrases attributively in place of adjectival clauses: ‘girós 
èna cúrantu ɱírus’, the man who is standing in the street; ‘gírom èna 
réésantu ɱírus’, the man who is running in the street.

However, Senjecas does have a lot of compound words, especially nouns: 
‘þáses’, animal + ‘ɱeídas’, knowledge (< ‘ɱeída’, know) + 
‘-áágus’, suffix indicating a person involved with = ‘þasɱèidáágus’, 
zoologist.

Charlie





Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________
1c. Re: Concision in your conlang vs your L1
    Posted by: "Leonardo Castro" leolucas1...@gmail.com 
    Date: Sat Aug 31, 2013 12:41 pm ((PDT))

2013/8/31 Daniel Bowman <danny.c.bow...@gmail.com>:
> I recently retranslated Frank Herbert's Litany against Fear, and I was once 
> again struck by the fact that Angosey tends to be "wordier" than English.  
> That is, my words have more syllables, and it seems like I mark a lot of 
> grammar as prefixes and suffixes.  I explain this at the end of my blog post 
> as because Angosey is solely written, and because it's only in written form I 
> have unconsciously made extra effort to make up for the fact that other 
> contextual clues (facial expression, tone of voice, etc) are entirely absent 
> from my experience of the language.
>
> What are your experiences?  For those who do not have a stated goal either 
> way, are your languages "wordier" (in the sense that it takes more glyphs, be 
> they Roman or otherwise) to convey the same meaning compared to your L1?

It depends...

- 1st example:

-- Portuguese:

"Façamos!" ("Let us make it!")

-- Himantu:

 "Kiei-polai mante-u toi!"
1-PL make-{INDF-OBJ} IMP/HORT

But as it's possible to let most of things inferable from context, it
could be simply

"Mante-i-u!"
make-{INDF-SBJ}-{INDF-OBJ}


- 2nd example:

-- Himantu:

"Fuou toi!"

-- Portuguese:

"O que eu vou descrever no próximo parágrafo deve ou deveria ser feito
por alguém!"
("What I'm going to describe in the last paragraph must or should be
done by someone!")

>
> Danny
>
> PS I have posted my translation of the Litany online: 
> http://glossarch.wordpress.com/2013/08/30/the-litany-against-fear-translated-into-angosey/





Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________
1d. Re: Concision in your conlang vs your L1
    Posted by: "Anaïs Ahmed" aeetlrcre...@gmail.com 
    Date: Sat Aug 31, 2013 12:45 pm ((PDT))

I've never really thought about concision in my main conlang, much less my
other conlangs, but every time I translate something from English to my
main conlang it ends up taking a lot less to say the same thing, so I guess
that makes it pretty concise. I imagine that's because my conlang's roots
tend to be overwhelmingly monosyllabic.

-Anaïs


2013/8/31 Leonardo Castro <leolucas1...@gmail.com>

> 2013/8/31 Daniel Bowman <danny.c.bow...@gmail.com>:
> > I recently retranslated Frank Herbert's Litany against Fear, and I was
> once again struck by the fact that Angosey tends to be "wordier" than
> English.  That is, my words have more syllables, and it seems like I mark a
> lot of grammar as prefixes and suffixes.  I explain this at the end of my
> blog post as because Angosey is solely written, and because it's only in
> written form I have unconsciously made extra effort to make up for the fact
> that other contextual clues (facial expression, tone of voice, etc) are
> entirely absent from my experience of the language.
> >
> > What are your experiences?  For those who do not have a stated goal
> either way, are your languages "wordier" (in the sense that it takes more
> glyphs, be they Roman or otherwise) to convey the same meaning compared to
> your L1?
>
> It depends...
>
> - 1st example:
>
> -- Portuguese:
>
> "Façamos!" ("Let us make it!")
>
> -- Himantu:
>
>  "Kiei-polai mante-u toi!"
> 1-PL make-{INDF-OBJ} IMP/HORT
>
> But as it's possible to let most of things inferable from context, it
> could be simply
>
> "Mante-i-u!"
> make-{INDF-SBJ}-{INDF-OBJ}
>
>
> - 2nd example:
>
> -- Himantu:
>
> "Fuou toi!"
>
> -- Portuguese:
>
> "O que eu vou descrever no próximo parágrafo deve ou deveria ser feito
> por alguém!"
> ("What I'm going to describe in the last paragraph must or should be
> done by someone!")
>
> >
> > Danny
> >
> > PS I have posted my translation of the Litany online:
> http://glossarch.wordpress.com/2013/08/30/the-litany-against-fear-translated-into-angosey/
>





Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________
1e. Re: Concision in your conlang vs your L1
    Posted by: "Roger Mills" romi...@yahoo.com 
    Date: Sat Aug 31, 2013 2:39 pm ((PDT))

From: Daniel Bowman <danny.c.bow...@gmail.com>

I recently retranslated Frank Herbert's Litany against Fear, and I was once 
again struck by the fact that Angosey tends to be "wordier" than English.  That 
is, my words have more syllables, and it seems like I mark a lot of grammar as 
prefixes and suffixes.  I explain this at the end of my blog post as because 
Angosey is solely written, and because it's only in written form I have 
unconsciously made extra effort to make up for the fact that other contextual 
clues (facial expression, tone of voice, etc) are entirely absent from my 
experience of the language.

What are your experiences?  For those who do not have a stated goal either way, 
are your languages "wordier" (in the sense that it takes more glyphs, be they 
Roman or otherwise) to convey the same meaning compared to your L1?
=============================================
Sometimes Kash is wordier, sometimes not :-)))

I translated this to Kash some time ago. Here it is--

The Litany of Fear

I must
not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear.
I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past, I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.
Only I will remain.
(66 words)

In Kash:
andrinjumun liri andiris (The chant w.r.t. fear)

ta macayito maliris.
e andiris na ya, yarungombra haniyun.
e andiris na ya, yale akrakorecu re yarumek andakale yuno-yuno.  
macati-manjatito andirismi.
mambuto re yavalin ri vitayemi, ri ciniyemi.
i anju mende yavalin, mamaçando içun haniyunimi vara tikas vununi.
riyurun are andiris yu mende yacosa riyun, ta yaleto tape-tapes.
napo-naponi unayo mam 
(54 words, in both cases counting hyphenated forms as 1 word. (And it could be 
reduced a bit here and there.) However, the Kash morpheme count would be a lot 
higher than Engl.  Interlinear provided upon request)





Messages in this topic (8)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
2a. Re: I am sure
    Posted by: "Douglas Koller" douglaskol...@hotmail.com 
    Date: Sat Aug 31, 2013 7:33 pm ((PDT))

> Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2013 22:08:26 -0400
> From: tepeyach...@embarqmail.com
> Subject: Re: I am sure
> To: conl...@listserv.brown.edu
 
> I'm sure that you will have encountered some complement-taking verbs before 
> this.  How does Senjecan, render, e.g. "I think that he's going"?  
 
> Even if adjectives can't take sentential complements in Senjecan, perhaps "be 
> sure [that]" is translated by a verb.  (Something like one of the older uses 
> of English "confide".)
 
> Alex
> _________________________________
> 
> Is this not an example of indirect discourse?  I think that he’s going.  I 
> said that he’s going.
> Senjecas uses the supine (-u) with a motive (accusative) subject: “mus num 
> átu meína”.

How does Senjecas handle: "I'm happy that he's going."?

Kou
 
 
 
 
                                          




Messages in this topic (15)
________________________________________________________________________
2b. Re: I am sure
    Posted by: "C. Brickner" tepeyach...@embarqmail.com 
    Date: Sat Aug 31, 2013 11:34 pm ((PDT))

----- Original Message -----
> Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2013 22:08:26 -0400
> From: tepeyach...@embarqmail.com
> Subject: Re: I am sure
> To: conl...@listserv.brown.edu
 
> I'm sure that you will have encountered some complement-taking verbs before 
> this.  How does Senjecan, render, e.g. "I think that he's going"?  
 
> Even if adjectives can't take sentential complements in Senjecan, perhaps "be 
> sure [that]" is translated by a verb.  (Something like one of the older uses 
> of English "confide".)
 
> Alex
> _________________________________
> 
> Is this not an example of indirect discourse?  I think that he’s going.  I 
> said that he’s going.
> Senjecas uses the supine (-u) with a motive (accusative) subject: “mus num 
> átu meína”.

How does Senjecas handle: "I'm happy that he's going."?

Kou
____________________________________

I don't know. :-(  I only started thinking about this the other day when I 
realized that "I am sure that..." is just the tip of the iceberg: "I am happy 
that..."  "I am sorry that..."  I had not given this construction any thought 
until a few days ago.

Charlie





Messages in this topic (15)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
3.1. META: Conlang-L FAQ
    Posted by: "Henrik Theiling" h...@theiling.de 
    Date: Sat Aug 31, 2013 8:05 pm ((PDT))

The following is the de facto Conlang-L FAQ, hosted at:

    http://wiki.frath.net/Conlang-L_FAQ

This is automatically posted once a month, copied directly from that page,
for the benefit of new members. If you would like to change it, please
edit it at the link above.

**Henrik


==Where to get Conlang-L==

The official archives are at http://listserv.brown.edu/archives/conlang.html .
>From there, you can search the archives, get an RSS feed, manage your
subscription, etc.

It's also the ONLY place you can go to sign up and post things to the list.

A read-only archive with a nicer user interface is at
http://archives.conlang.info/ .  [As of April 2009 this archive has ceased
mirroring new messages.  Henrik Theiling knows about the problem and has said
he's planning to fix it but hasn't had time to do so yet.]

Conlang-L is also _mirrored_ as a Yahoo group, but there is no way to have
posts to the Yahoo group sent to the actual list.  Do *not* subscribe to the
Yahoo group.  It has no admin anymore.  Go to
http://listserv.brown.edu/archives/conlang.html instead!

==A brief history of the list==

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  ''By agreement with John Ross, the CONLANG mailing list has been moved to
  diku.dk, the mail hub of the CS Department of the University of Copenhagen.
  Send all submissions to CONLANG at diku dot dk. The address at buphy still
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  ''Lars Mathiesen (U of Copenhagen CS Dept)  (Humour NOT marked)''

(Note that the submission address in that historical note '''NO LONGER
WORKS'''.)

Later, growing traffic and changes at the university necessitated a move. In
January–February of 1997 the list moved to its current home at Brown
University's LISTSERV server. David Durand made the move and actively
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Before the move, threads centered on debates on the relative merits of
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In ??? John Cowan took over actual moderation duties, as "Lord of the
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Later the torch was passed to Henrik Theiling.

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==Subject Topic Tags==

In the subject line of a post, you can mark the post with one of the following
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CHAT: Is the world really round?

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Finally, there are two meta-tags:

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Example:

JAMA says flat earth leads to flat [@] (was CHAT: Is the world really round?)

Note that tags ARE included after the "was", but "Re:" is NOT, nor is
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==Acronyms==

List of acronyms specific to the Conlang Mailing List:

* AFMCL - "As for my conlang.."

** AFMOCL - "As for my own conlang"

* ANADEW - "A natlang's already dunnit, except worse"

* ANADEWism - Something you thought was unique, but ANADEW

* IML - "in my 'lect" (dialect or [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idiolect
idiolect], depending on context)

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* NLF2DWS or NLWS - Non-linear [fully 2-dimensional] writing system

* YAEPT (the original acronym) - Yet Another English Pronunciation Thread

** YADPT ... Dutch Pronunciation ...

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Acronyms not on this list might be in general usage: try
[http://www.google.com/search?q=define%3Aafaict Google's define:] or
[http://www.acronymfinder.com/ Acronym Finder].

==Other conlang-specific vocabulary==

>From [http://cassowary.free.fr/Linguistics/Conlang%20Dictionary/ here] and
[http://arthaey.mine.nu/~arthaey/conlang/faq.html here].  See also [[Conlang
terminology]].

con__

* constructed __ (generally a contraction): conlang, conworld, conhistory,
conculture, ...

__lang

* a language characterised by ___ (generally a contraction): conlang, artlang,
auxlang, ...

[[artlang]]

# A language constructed for the beauty or fun of doing so. [From art(istic) +
lang(uage)]

# (See conlang) [From art(ificial) + lang(uage)]

[[auxlang]]

* A language constructed to replace or complement natlangs to facilitate
cross-linguistic communication. [From aux(iliary) + lang(uage)]

concultural [From con(structed) + cultur(e) + al]

* Adjective form of "conculture".

[[conculture]] [From con(structed) + culture]

* A fictional culture created as a backdrop to a conlang. See also "conworld".

[[conlang]] [From con(structed) + lang(uage)]

# n. A constructed language

# v. To construct a language

[[CONLANG]] (all caps), conlang-l, Conlang-L, or CONLANG-L

* A very active conlang mailing list hosted by brown.edu, and currently
operated by Henrik Theiling

[[conworld]] [From con(structed) + world]

* A fictional world created to host a conlang or conculture. See also
"conculture".

[[engelang]] /ˈendʒlæŋ/ [From eng(ineered) + lang(uage)]

* A conlang that is designed to certain criteria, such that it is objectively
testable whether the criteria are met or not. This is different from claiming
that the criteria themselves are 'objective'. For example, the Lojban/Loglan
roots are designed to be maximally recognisable to the speakers of the
(numerically) largest languages in the world in proportion to the number of
speakers. It is not a matter of taste whether this criterion is met; it is
something that can be tested. (by John Cowan) [From eng(ineered) + lang(uage)]

etabnannery /raːmnænəɹi/ (rare)

* The state of appearing entirely unpredictable, but, upon closer analysis,
failing at even being that. [From Etá̄bnann(i), a conlang by Tristan McLeay,
which was supposed to have an unpredictable orthography, but ended up just
having a confusing one. Damn people trying to make patterns everywhere. At
least it's a bugger to typeset!... errm... back to the derivation + -ery]

maggelity /məˈgɛlɪti/ (rare) [From Maggel, a conlang by Christophe
Grandsire which has a rarely predictable orthography]

# The state of being entirely unpredictable. (Tristan McLeay)

# The state of being regularly unpredictable, such as to horribly confuse
anyone unfamiliar with the language, lulling them into a full sense of
security before pointing out, cartoon-character-style, that the ground no
longer exists where they're standing. (Tristan McLeay and H. S. Teoh)

Maggel's Paradox (rare)

* Your radical ideas have already occurred to others. (Muke Tever)

[[natlang]] [From nat(ural) + lang(uage)]

# A natural language, i.e., one that naturally developed in the world, as
opposed to a conlang.

ObConlang (or ObCL)

* Just before something about conlanging in an otherwise off-topic post.

* From ob(ligatory) + conlang (i.e., an obligatory on-topic comment about
conlangs just so that the post isn't completely off-topic).

[[translation relay]]

* A game similar to Telephone or Chinese Whispers, wherein the participants
translate a passage one at a time, in serial, into their own languages - and
then marvel at how far from the original the translations have gotten.

==CXS (Conlang X-SAMPA)==

[[CXS]] is a version of X-SAMPA for use on the CONLANG mailing list. X-SAMPA
is a way to write the IPA (International Phonetic Alphabet) using normal
plain-ASCII text that everyone can read.

* [http://www.theiling.de/ipa/ Theiling Online: Conlang X-Sampa (CXS)] -
includes CXS-to-IPA conversion chart

* [http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Conlang/Appendix/CXS CXS at Wikibooks]

==Related lists==

The Auxlang list, mentioned above, is dedicated to international auxiliary
languages.  Its archives and subscription interface are at
http://listserv.brown.edu/archives/auxlang.html .

The list re...@calcifer.valdyas.org is dedicated to the planning and
conducting of [[conlang relay]]s, q.v.

==Resources==

* [http://www.arthaey.com/conlang/faq.html Arthaey's Conlang FAQ]

* [http://www.langmaker.com LangMaker] - repository of many conlang
"biographies"

* [http://wiki.frath.net Frath Wiki] - a similar site, and host of the
Conlang-L (wikified) FAQ

* [http://www.omniglot.com Omniglot] - which has information on more writing
systems than you thought could exist

{{Conlangculture}}

[[Category:Terminology]]





Messages in this topic (38)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
4. Is It True That Left-Handed People Are Smarter Than Right-Handed Peo
    Posted by: "Nicole Valicia Thompson-Andrews" goldyemo...@gmail.com 
    Date: Sun Sep 1, 2013 2:47 am ((PDT))

Hi, I'm in a science fiction group. They've posted this article.

I wasn't sure if I could cross-post from that list to this, so to be safe, I
figured I'd just send the link and pose some questions.
A
Are you left or right-handed, I'm left.

B
Do your worlds have use this tool to determine intelligence?
C
What do you think about using intelligence as a ranking factor in our
worlds, would it work at any tech level, after all Yemora is a cross-tech
society, so maybe a mental healer would test the children.
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=is-it-true-that-left-handed
-people
Also, this just brought up another question.
D
Do your conlangs have nonverbal communication for people with communicative
disorders, and if so, does handness play a factor. Mine does, but it looks I
have to rewrite my notes again.





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