There are 12 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. Re: Is It True That Left-Handed People Are Smarter Than Right-Handed
From: C. Brickner
1b. Re: Is It True That Left-Handed People Are Smarter Than Right-Handed
From: R A Brown
2.1. Re: Colloquial French resources
From: C. Brickner
2.2. Re: Colloquial French resources
From: David McCann
2.3. Diminutive -ie/-y (was: Colloquial French resources)
From: R A Brown
2.4. Re: Diminutive -ie/-y (was: Colloquial French resources)
From: C. Brickner
2.5. Re: Diminutive -ie/-y (was: Colloquial French resources)
From: Roger Mills
2.6. Re: Colloquial French resources
From: Njenfalgar
2.7. Re: Colloquial French resources
From: Aidan Grey
2.8. Re: Colloquial French resources
From: Aidan Grey
2.9. Re: Diminutive -ie/-y (was: Colloquial French resources)
From: Eric Christopherson
2.10. Re: Colloquial French resources
From: Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets
Messages
________________________________________________________________________
1a. Re: Is It True That Left-Handed People Are Smarter Than Right-Handed
Posted by: "C. Brickner" tepeyach...@embarqmail.com
Date: Mon Sep 2, 2013 8:19 am ((PDT))
> I didn't remember about the Catholic thing. Otherwise,
> for years I've conformed to three of those epithets.
> Nowadays only to two of them :P.
IIRC the 'Catholic' bit got there partly because of JRRT and
because there were (presumably still are) quite a few
Catholics among those who actively post to the list. Also
IIRC Fr Schleyer, the inventor of Volapük had something to
do with it. Coincidentally the inventor of the earliest
mixed-type conlang was that of the French Jesuit
priest, Philippe Labbé, published in 1663:
http://www.carolandray.plus.com/Outis/index.html
________________________________________________
And let's not forget St. Hildegard! :-)
Charlie
Messages in this topic (12)
________________________________________________________________________
1b. Re: Is It True That Left-Handed People Are Smarter Than Right-Handed
Posted by: "R A Brown" r...@carolandray.plus.com
Date: Mon Sep 2, 2013 9:05 am ((PDT))
On 02/09/2013 16:19, C. Brickner wrote:
>> I didn't remember about the Catholic thing. Otherwise,
>> for years I've conformed to three of those epithets.
>> Nowadays only to two of them :P.
>
> IIRC the 'Catholic' bit got there partly because of JRRT
> and because there were (presumably still are) quite a
> few Catholics among those who actively post to the list.
> Also IIRC Fr Schleyer, the inventor of Volapük had
> something to do with it. Coincidentally the inventor of
> the earliest mixed-type conlang was that of the French
> Jesuit priest, Philippe Labbé, published in 1663:
> http://www.carolandray.plus.com/Outis/index.html
> ________________________________________________
>
> And let's not forget St. Hildegard! :-)
OOPS!!
That's a sin of omission, if ever there was one :(
Mea maxima culpa!
(Send penance off-line)
--
Ray
==================================
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
"language … began with half-musical unanalysed expressions
for individual beings and events."
[Otto Jespersen, Progress in Language, 1895]
Messages in this topic (12)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
2.1. Re: Colloquial French resources
Posted by: "C. Brickner" tepeyach...@embarqmail.com
Date: Mon Sep 2, 2013 8:26 am ((PDT))
----- Original Message -----
I've just been reading
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quebec_French
and this:
"A notable difference in grammar which received considerable attention in
France during the 1990s is
the feminine form of many professions, which traditionally did not have a
feminine form.[16] In
Quebec, one writes nearly universally une chercheuse [17] "a researcher",
whereas in France, un
chercheur and, more recently, un chercheur and une chercheuse, are used."
pi
came up. As a speaker of Australasian English, I'm reminded of the "softening"
of registers by the use
of the diminutive suffix: "bikkie" for biscuit, "hankie" for handkerchief, etc,
in Australasian English.
_________________________________________________
I should think that the use of the diminutive suffix is common throughout the
Anglophone world. I'm from the Commonwealth of Virginia, USA, and I've said
"hankie" all my life. Then there's puppy, kitty, potty, nightie, piggy, and a
host of others.
Charlie
Messages in this topic (35)
________________________________________________________________________
2.2. Re: Colloquial French resources
Posted by: "David McCann" da...@polymathy.plus.com
Date: Mon Sep 2, 2013 8:58 am ((PDT))
On Mon, 2 Sep 2013 13:27:10 +0200
Jonathan Beagley <jonathan.beag...@gmail.com> wrote:
> writing a paper last year, I had a similar problem when referring a
> female writer as my partner and I were not sure whether we should use
> "un auteur" or "une auteure." Furthermore, what happens to gender
> agreement? If you use "un auteur" to refer to a woman, do you make
> the adjectives agree with her actual, physical gender or the
> grammatical gender of the word? If I recall correctly, the professor
> told use to use "une auteure" and agree with her physical gender, but
> as I understand, many "purists" would be outraged by this sort of
> usage.
There's a well known hierarchy in most languages. Attributive
adjectives normally agree with the formal gender, predicative ones are
more likely to agree with the semantic gender. The order of decreasing
grammatical agreement is
attributive > predicative > relative pronoun > personal pronoun
In Russian, vrač "doctor is masculine, and if it's a woman, a survey in
the 1960s showed
novyj vrač "new" (masc) is more likely than novja vrač (fem; 17%)
rabotala "worked" (fem; 52%) is slightly more likely than rabotal (masc)
Pronouns are usually feminine, but the organiser of a tour round the
Kremlin in 1988 said "Your guide (ekskursovod masc) is in front of you.
He (a woman!) has his hand up."
A modern French example is
Sa (fem) Sainteté (fem), avec laquelle (fem) je viens de parler...
His Holiness, with whom I have just been speaking...
But an older Spanish one is
Su Majestad Suprema (fem), el cual (masc) está muy contento (masc)...
His Supreme Majesty, who is very happy...
Messages in this topic (35)
________________________________________________________________________
2.3. Diminutive -ie/-y (was: Colloquial French resources)
Posted by: "R A Brown" r...@carolandray.plus.com
Date: Mon Sep 2, 2013 9:02 am ((PDT))
On 02/09/2013 16:26, C. Brickner wrote:
> ----- Original Message -----
[snip]
>> I've just been reading As a speaker of Australasian
>> English, I'm reminded of the "softening" of registers
>> by the use of the diminutive suffix: "bikkie" for
>> biscuit, "hankie" for handkerchief, etc, in
>> Australasian English.
> _________________________________________________
>
> I should think that the use of the diminutive suffix is
> common throughout the Anglophone world.
So should I.
> I'm from the Commonwealth of Virginia, USA, and I've said
> "hankie" all my life.
Just as I have all my life here in the UK ;)
Also _bickie/bicky_ is common enough here, tho IME used more
often to children - but by no means exclusively so.
> Then there's puppy, kitty, potty, nightie, piggy, and a
> host of others.
Yep, we have them all this side of the Pond also. This
morning I had a bit brecky before I went out and later this
evening I shall be watching the telly; rain is forecast for
this coming Friday, so I may well be wearing my wellies
(wellington boots) then.
Yep - AFAIK the diminutive -ie/-y is fairly universal
throughout anglophonia.
--
Ray
==================================
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
"language … began with half-musical unanalysed expressions
for individual beings and events."
[Otto Jespersen, Progress in Language, 1895]
Messages in this topic (35)
________________________________________________________________________
2.4. Re: Diminutive -ie/-y (was: Colloquial French resources)
Posted by: "C. Brickner" tepeyach...@embarqmail.com
Date: Mon Sep 2, 2013 9:47 am ((PDT))
I find interesting how colloquialisms vary on either side of the Pond. Your
telly is our TV. I've always like "nappy".
Charlie
----- Original Message -----
On 02/09/2013 16:26, C. Brickner wrote:
> ----- Original Message -----
[snip]
>> I've just been reading As a speaker of Australasian
>> English, I'm reminded of the "softening" of registers
>> by the use of the diminutive suffix: "bikkie" for
>> biscuit, "hankie" for handkerchief, etc, in
>> Australasian English.
> _________________________________________________
>
> I should think that the use of the diminutive suffix is
> common throughout the Anglophone world.
So should I.
> I'm from the Commonwealth of Virginia, USA, and I've said
> "hankie" all my life.
Just as I have all my life here in the UK ;)
Also _bickie/bicky_ is common enough here, tho IME used more
often to children - but by no means exclusively so.
> Then there's puppy, kitty, potty, nightie, piggy, and a
> host of others.
Yep, we have them all this side of the Pond also. This
morning I had a bit brecky before I went out and later this
evening I shall be watching the telly; rain is forecast for
this coming Friday, so I may well be wearing my wellies
(wellington boots) then.
Yep - AFAIK the diminutive -ie/-y is fairly universal
throughout anglophonia.
--
Ray
==================================
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
"language … began with half-musical unanalysed expressions
for individual beings and events."
[Otto Jespersen, Progress in Language, 1895]
Messages in this topic (35)
________________________________________________________________________
2.5. Re: Diminutive -ie/-y (was: Colloquial French resources)
Posted by: "Roger Mills" romi...@yahoo.com
Date: Mon Sep 2, 2013 11:01 am ((PDT))
And don't forget our nightly _drinky (-ie?)_!!!!
I imagine every family ~little group has its own. My sister and I used to
pester our cats with "tickle the toesies" which they didn't like.
One that I find myself using a lot is "Mr...." e.g. "turn on Mr. Lamp", or
"where's Mr. Towel?" et multa alia.
Lately I've had to use a cane for walking, and frequently misplace it. "Where's
m'cane?" has morphed into "Where's the Senator?"
________________________________
From: C. Brickner <tepeyach...@embarqmail.com>
To: conl...@listserv.brown.edu
Sent: Monday, September 2, 2013 12:47 PM
Subject: Re: Diminutive -ie/-y (was: Colloquial French resources)
I find interesting how colloquialisms vary on either side of the Pond. Your
telly is our TV. I've always like "nappy".
Charlie
----- Original Message -----
On 02/09/2013 16:26, C. Brickner wrote:
> ----- Original Message -----
[snip]
>> I've just been reading As a speaker of Australasian
>> English, I'm reminded of the "softening" of registers
>> by the use of the diminutive suffix: "bikkie" for
>> biscuit, "hankie" for handkerchief, etc, in
>> Australasian English.
> _________________________________________________
>
> I should think that the use of the diminutive suffix is
> common throughout the Anglophone world.
So should I.
> I'm from the Commonwealth of Virginia, USA, and I've said
> "hankie" all my life.
Just as I have all my life here in the UK ;)
Also _bickie/bicky_ is common enough here, tho IME used more
often to children - but by no means exclusively so.
> Then there's puppy, kitty, potty, nightie, piggy, and a
> host of others.
Yep, we have them all this side of the Pond also. This
morning I had a bit brecky before I went out and later this
evening I shall be watching the telly; rain is forecast for
this coming Friday, so I may well be wearing my wellies
(wellington boots) then.
Yep - AFAIK the diminutive -ie/-y is fairly universal
throughout anglophonia.
--
Ray
==================================
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
"language … began with half-musical unanalysed expressions
for individual beings and events."
[Otto Jespersen, Progress in Language, 1895]
Messages in this topic (35)
________________________________________________________________________
2.6. Re: Colloquial French resources
Posted by: "Njenfalgar" njenfal...@gmail.com
Date: Mon Sep 2, 2013 1:31 pm ((PDT))
2013/9/2 David McCann <da...@polymathy.plus.com>
> On Mon, 2 Sep 2013 13:27:10 +0200
> Jonathan Beagley <jonathan.beag...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > writing a paper last year, I had a similar problem when referring a
> > female writer as my partner and I were not sure whether we should use
> > "un auteur" or "une auteure." Furthermore, what happens to gender
> > agreement? If you use "un auteur" to refer to a woman, do you make
> > the adjectives agree with her actual, physical gender or the
> > grammatical gender of the word? If I recall correctly, the professor
> > told use to use "une auteure" and agree with her physical gender, but
> > as I understand, many "purists" would be outraged by this sort of
> > usage.
>
> There's a well known hierarchy in most languages. Attributive
> adjectives normally agree with the formal gender, predicative ones are
> more likely to agree with the semantic gender. The order of decreasing
> grammatical agreement is
> attributive > predicative > relative pronoun > personal pronoun
>
> In Russian, vrač "doctor is masculine, and if it's a woman, a survey in
> the 1960s showed
> novyj vrač "new" (masc) is more likely than novja vrač (fem; 17%)
> rabotala "worked" (fem; 52%) is slightly more likely than rabotal (masc)
> Pronouns are usually feminine, but the organiser of a tour round the
> Kremlin in 1988 said "Your guide (ekskursovod masc) is in front of you.
> He (a woman!) has his hand up."
>
> A modern French example is
> Sa (fem) Sainteté (fem), avec laquelle (fem) je viens de parler...
> His Holiness, with whom I have just been speaking...
>
> But an older Spanish one is
> Su Majestad Suprema (fem), el cual (masc) está muy contento (masc)...
> His Supreme Majesty, who is very happy...
>
There's also the rather famous French song "Nathalie" containing the
sentence: "Il avait un joli nom, mon guide: Nathalie." ("*He* had a
beautiful name, my guide: Nathalie.") The guide is obviously female, and is
referred to with a feminine pronoun for most of the song, but the word for
"guide" is masculine...
Greets,
David
--
Yésináne gika asahukúka ha'u Kusikéla-Kísu yesahuwese witi nale lálu wíke
uhu tu tinitíhi lise tesahuwese. Lise yésináne, lina, ikéwiyéwa etinizáwa
búwubúwu niyi tutelíhi uhu yegeka.
http://njenfalgar.conlang.org/
Messages in this topic (35)
________________________________________________________________________
2.7. Re: Colloquial French resources
Posted by: "Aidan Grey" taalenma...@gmail.com
Date: Mon Sep 2, 2013 1:43 pm ((PDT))
Thanks! That Arkadiev article is one of the things I wanted to know about.
On Fri, Aug 30, 2013 at 9:05 AM, R A Brown <r...@carolandray.plus.com> wrote:
> On 30/08/2013 15:39, Mustafa Umut Sarac wrote:
>
>> I searched the google for polypersonal verbs and found
>> nothing.
>>
>
> You should at least have found:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/**Polypersonal_agreement<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polypersonal_agreement>
>
> Towards the end of that article there is mention of French:
> "Some[who?] have observed that the French pronominal clitics
> (common to all Romance languages) have evolved into
> inseparable parts of the verb in the colloquial use, and so,
> suggested that French could be analyzed as polypersonal."
>
> In connexion with Spoken French, an interesting article is:
> http://matnat.ronet.ru/**articles/Arkadiev_TypSchool_**
> Polysynthesis_Hand.pdf<http://matnat.ronet.ru/articles/Arkadiev_TypSchool_Polysynthesis_Hand.pdf>
>
> This has been discussed on the conlang list, e.g.
> http://listserv.brown.edu/**archives/cgi-bin/wa?A3=**
> ind0501C&L=CONLANG&E=8bit&P=**829943&B=--&T=text%2Fplain;%**
> 20charset=ISO-8859-1&header=1<http://listserv.brown.edu/archives/cgi-bin/wa?A3=ind0501C&L=CONLANG&E=8bit&P=829943&B=--&T=text%2Fplain;%20charset=ISO-8859-1&header=1>
> http://archives.conlang.info/**zae/wivhun/gorqhuenwhoen.html<http://archives.conlang.info/zae/wivhun/gorqhuenwhoen.html>
>
> --
> Ray
> ==============================**====
> http://www.carolandray.plus.**com <http://www.carolandray.plus.com>
> ==============================**====
> "language � began with half-musical unanalysed expressions
> for individual beings and events."
> [Otto Jespersen, Progress in Language, 1895]
>
Messages in this topic (35)
________________________________________________________________________
2.8. Re: Colloquial French resources
Posted by: "Aidan Grey" taalenma...@gmail.com
Date: Mon Sep 2, 2013 1:50 pm ((PDT))
Thank you, Christophe! Polypersonalism is the main reason Wassa is going
polysynthetic. And thank for your offer of additional explanation!
I do have a question or two other than Polyperson agreement:
- What is happening with gender, as a generality? Are they staying strong?
Merging? Diverging along different lines? Expanding / multiplying?
- Adjectives: in spoken french, I understand that most adjectives have one
form, for all genders and numbers (an example being
turc/turque/turcs/turques for 'Turkish', all pronounced /tyRk/. How strong
is that? Is it accurate?
Besides these obvious bits (and pas alone for negation), are there any
other details that differ markedly from literary French? Anywhere I can
look for a list / explanation of the major points of difference?
On Fri, Aug 30, 2013 at 9:07 AM, Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets <
tsela...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 30 August 2013 16:11, Jonathan Beagley <jonathan.beag...@gmail.com
> >wrote:
>
> > I'll third that.
> >
> > Also, I may not be a native speaker of French, but I've lived in France
> for
> > the past two years and have a fairly advanced knowledge of Spoken French,
> > having also studied it at university.
> >
> > There are some interesting academic articles about Spoken French (at
> least
> > as far as dislocations and future tense variation go), but personally
> I've
> > never heard of this "polypersonal" thing. Care to explain, Christophe?
> >
> >
> Quite simple: in Modern Spoken French, it's quite common to include all
> markings of person on the verb for the subject, and optionally direct and
> indirect object (the so-called "personal pronouns"), even when said
> arguments are already indicated somewhere else in the sentence. So
> sentences like these are common:
> - _J'lui ai parlé hier à ce gars-là_ ("I talked to that man yesterday".
> _lui_ is present, despite the indirect object _à ce gars-là_ being already
> present in the sentence);
> - _Tu vois, ma femme elle en a toujours des bonnes idées_ ("You see, my
> wife always has good ideas", the subject and direct object are both marked
> on the verb, by _elle_ and en_ respectively, despite being present as full
> noun phrases in the sentence).
> My argument is that such sentences are an indication that the so-called
> "personal pronouns" have moved away from being clitics to becoming
> full-blown personal agreement affixes of the verb, turning French verbs
> into polypersonal verbs, marking not only the subject but also the object
> and the indirect object when those are present (as in Basque for instance).
> Actually, more things have become affixes to the verb: the negative mark
> _pas_ for instance.
> This has resulted in added freedom in the position of noun phrases, and the
> sentence _tu vois, ma femmes des bonnes idées elle en a toujours_ is a
> perfectly grammatical alternative to my second example above.
> As such, French starts looking more like a polysynthetic language than like
> its fellow Romance languages.
> As for cases where those polypersonal agreement suffixes are not used, I
> attribute them to code-switching, something very common in situations of
> effective diglossia. This does muddy the waters a bit, but doesn't change
> my opinion that the verb in Modern Spoken French has truly evolved
> full-blown polypersonal agreement.
>
> On 30 August 2013 16:39, Mustafa Umut Sarac <mustafaumutsa...@gmail.com
> >wrote:
>
> > I searched the google for polypersonal verbs and found nothing. Please
> link
> > a free paper.
> >
> >
> I have yet to find a single good paper devoted to that phenomenon in
> French. However, I've seen it mentioned in throwaway lines in linguistic
> articles on more than one occasion, so I'd be surprised if no article
> existed at all.
>
> And of course during my writing of this post quite a few links have already
> been given by other people. The power of the Conlang list at work! :P
> --
> Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets.
>
> http://christophoronomicon.blogspot.com/
> http://www.christophoronomicon.nl/
>
Messages in this topic (35)
________________________________________________________________________
2.9. Re: Diminutive -ie/-y (was: Colloquial French resources)
Posted by: "Eric Christopherson" ra...@charter.net
Date: Mon Sep 2, 2013 6:30 pm ((PDT))
On Sep 2, 2013, at 11:02 AM, R A Brown <r...@carolandray.plus.com> wrote:
> On 02/09/2013 16:26, C. Brickner wrote:
>> ----- Original Message -----
>
> [snip]
>
>>> I've just been reading As a speaker of Australasian
>>> English, I'm reminded of the "softening" of registers
>>> by the use of the diminutive suffix: "bikkie" for
>>> biscuit, "hankie" for handkerchief, etc, in
>>> Australasian English.
>> _________________________________________________
>>
>> I should think that the use of the diminutive suffix is
>> common throughout the Anglophone world.
>
> So should I.
>
>> I'm from the Commonwealth of Virginia, USA, and I've said
>> "hankie" all my life.
>
> Just as I have all my life here in the UK ;)
>
> Also _bickie/bicky_ is common enough here, tho IME used more
> often to children - but by no means exclusively so.
>
>> Then there's puppy, kitty, potty, nightie, piggy, and a
>> host of others.
>
> Yep, we have them all this side of the Pond also. This
> morning I had a bit brecky before I went out and later this
> evening I shall be watching the telly; rain is forecast for
> this coming Friday, so I may well be wearing my wellies
> (wellington boots) then.
>
> Yep - AFAIK the diminutive -ie/-y is fairly universal
> throughout anglophonia.
My favorite -/i/ noun currently is _compy_ "computer", as seen at least in the
Homestar Runner web cartoon. I'm not sure how much currency it has outside of
that cartoon's audience, though. _Celly_ "cellular phone" is also good. Neither
one is particularly British or Australian.
However, I do feel intuitively that adding -/i/ (and especially when the word
is shortened first) is more common in Australian (and perhaps in the UK as
well), e.g. _brecky_. Likewise there are some colloquial nouns ending in -/o/
here in the US, but I tend to think that suffix is more productive at least in
Australia (e.g. _arvo_ "afternoon" -- which additionally shows a voicing, as in
_Aussie_, which has always puzzled me a little). But perhaps the number of
nouns using those suffixes is fairly equal among different Englishes, but each
one has a slightly different (but often overlapping) set of such?
Finally, I notice that some such words orthographically have -_ie_ while some
have -_y_ (and maybe a few even have -_ey_); similarly with hypochoristic
names. I'm not sure what rhyme or reason there is to that choice, although my
intuition (there it is again) is that -_ie_ is used more often when actual
smallness is being asserted.
Messages in this topic (35)
________________________________________________________________________
2.10. Re: Colloquial French resources
Posted by: "Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets" tsela...@gmail.com
Date: Tue Sep 3, 2013 12:17 am ((PDT))
On 2 September 2013 22:50, Aidan Grey <taalenma...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Thank you, Christophe! Polypersonalism is the main reason Wassa is going
> polysynthetic. And thank for your offer of additional explanation!
>
>
You're welcome :).
> I do have a question or two other than Polyperson agreement:
>
> - What is happening with gender, as a generality? Are they staying strong?
> Merging? Diverging along different lines? Expanding / multiplying?
>
>
Despite the difficulties outlined in previous posts of this thread (i.e.
what happens when grammatical and referent gender don't match), gender
remains strong in French. The masculine/feminine distinction shows no sign
of eroding, nor any sign of breaking up into more genders. Indeed, the
latest trend (in France at least) has been to *add* gendered variants,
especially to nouns of professions that existed only in one gender.
Nowadays all have both a masculine and a feminine variant (in some cases
those are identical in form, resulting in effectively epicene nouns, like
the noun _ministre_: "minister", which can now be used both with _le_ and
_la_, solving the issue of the very awkward _madame le ministre_).
What does seem to happen though is the reclassification of somewhat
uncommon nouns based on shape, i.e. nouns switch gender compared to their
gender in Written French because they are not commonly used, and their
shape suggests the other gender (due to analogy with more common nouns).
Another interesting phenomenon when it comes to gender is the
reclassification of gender of entire *phrases* based on the effective
referent. Let me give an example: in Spoken French expression starting with
_espèce de..._ are very common. They are difficult to translate, ranging
from meanings like "some kind of..." to effectively augmentatives (but
always with some kind of pejorative meaning, or at least slightly
denigrating). Examples are _espèce d'imbécile_ (used vocatively, it means
"what an idiot!", but it can also be used in a sentence), _espèce de
voiture_: "some kind of car", etc. The interesting thing about such
expressions is that the head of those phrases is the noun _espèce_, which
is feminine in French. So one would expect _une espèce d'imbécile_, _une
espèce de voiture_, etc. But in Spoken French, the gender of such phrases
is normally the gender of the actual referent, i.e. the gender of the noun
used as modifier to the _espèce de..._ phrase! In other words, if
_imbécile_ refers to a male (it's an adjective used nominally, and
epicene), one will normally say _un espèce d'imbécile_ (with the masculine
indefinite article rather than the feminine one!). It's as if _espèce
de..._ has lost its grammatical status and behaves like a prefix rather
than like a head noun.
this phenomenon isn't restricted to _espèce de..._: other similar
expressions have the same behaviour. Although most of them belong to
impolite language, so I will refrain from naming them unless pushed :P.
> - Adjectives: in spoken french, I understand that most adjectives have one
> form, for all genders and numbers (an example being
> turc/turque/turcs/turques for 'Turkish', all pronounced /tyRk/. How strong
> is that? Is it accurate?
>
>
It's accurate as long as you don't factor in *liaison*. But then things get
complicated in that when does liaison happen is a complex issue, that
depends both on the phonological and grammatical environment, and the
actual words in question. Liaison is not a purely phonological phenomenon.
Also, "most adjectives" might be a bit exaggerated. Still quite a lot of
commonly (and less commonly) used adjectives have at least different
masculine and feminine forms, although most don't change in the plural
indeed.
> Besides these obvious bits (and pas alone for negation), are there any
> other details that differ markedly from literary French? Anywhere I can
> look for a list / explanation of the major points of difference?
>
>
So many! If you can locate _Colloquial French Grammar: a practical guide_
by Rodney Ball, I advise you to have a look at it. It's not perfect, but
it's good enough as a starting point :). I couldn't even start to give you
a list, as the differences are everywhere :).
--
Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets.
http://christophoronomicon.blogspot.com/
http://www.christophoronomicon.nl/
Messages in this topic (35)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/conlang/
<*> Your email settings:
Digest Email | Traditional
<*> To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/conlang/join
(Yahoo! ID required)
<*> To change settings via email:
conlang-nor...@yahoogroups.com
conlang-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com
<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
conlang-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com
<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
------------------------------------------------------------------------
