There are 6 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. Re: Choosing a word for "German"
From: R A Brown
1b. Re: Choosing a word for "German"
From: Daniel Prohaska
1c. Re: Choosing a word for "German"
From: R A Brown
1d. Re: Choosing a word for "German"
From: Daniel Prohaska
1e. Re: Choosing a word for "German"
From: Padraic Brown
2a. Re: To diss
From: Roger Mills
Messages
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1a. Re: Choosing a word for "German"
Posted by: "R A Brown" r...@carolandray.plus.com
Date: Thu Sep 5, 2013 8:00 am ((PDT))
On 05/09/2013 13:36, Padraic Brown wrote:
> ----- Original Message -----
>
>> From: R A Brown To: conl...@listserv.brown.edu Cc:
>> Sent: Thursday, 5 September 2013, 3:03 Subject: Re:
>> Choosing a word for "German"
>>
>> On 04/09/2013 16:59, Paul Schleitwiler, FCM wrote:
[snip]
>>> From "herman" (herr man), warrior.
>>
>> So why the change of /h/ --> /g/
>
> Perhaps the Germans they first met had sore throats and
> the [x] sound of WGmc h- came out particularly rough and
> garbled? ;)))
:)
If it is derived from 'herr man", then I guess it got to the
Romans through Celtic intermediaries. Any sound changes
would have occurred, possibly in a Chinese whispers effect,
along the route.
>> and does that account for the long-a of the Latin
>> _Germānus_ ?
>
> Could this not simply be Lat. germāni, in the "brothers
> and sisters" sense? That is, a sort of "clan" or
> "confederation" of Germanic relations, rather than some
> kind of borrowing?
trThat would be fine with _frātrēs_, but _germānī_ was used
only of full brothers (or at least brothers sharing the same
father) and, of course, _germānae_ are full sisters (or a
sisters who share the same father)
If it were a borrowing, what might you
> have expected, something like *xermanus
Nope - _x_ always denoted [ks].
> or *kermanus
Nope - _k_ was rare and used only before _a_.
> or something like that?
I would expect *hermanus or, maybe, *chermanus.
[snip]
>
> Indeed. And, from what I've read, there does seem to be
> some confusion as to who, in that region, were actually
> Celtic and who were actually Germanic.
Yes, in the periphery areas. IIRC I've come across the
Belgae designated variously as Germanic, Celtic or mixed
(not sure what the very latest thinking is).
> Would Caesar have known or cared?
I don't imagine he would have cared overmuch.
> Not being facetious, but did he (or the Romans in
> general) distinguish broad cultural / linguistic groups
> the way we do?
Yes, in very broad terms.
> Did he understand the difference between Germanic and
> Celtic (linguistically)?
They knew they were different, because they used different
words and you needed different interpreters. But AFAIK no
one delved deeply into the difference as a modern linguist
would.
[snip]
>> The words _German_ and _Germany_ appear not to be
>> attested in English until the 16th century, replacing
>> earlier terms such as Almain/ Alman (of French origin)
>> or Dutch (of German origin, and now reserved reserved
>> for the inhabitants of the Netherlands).
>
> And Pennsylvania!
Darn it - yes, I forget the Pennsylvanian Dutch (from
Westphalia IIRC?).
--
Ray
==================================
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
"language … began with half-musical unanalysed expressions
for individual beings and events."
[Otto Jespersen, Progress in Language, 1895]
Messages in this topic (18)
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1b. Re: Choosing a word for "German"
Posted by: "Daniel Prohaska" dan...@ryan-prohaska.com
Date: Thu Sep 5, 2013 8:03 am ((PDT))
On Sep 5, 2013, at 5:00 PM, R A Brown wrote:
>
>>> The words _German_ and _Germany_ appear not to be
>>> attested in English until the 16th century, replacing
>>> earlier terms such as Almain/ Alman (of French origin)
>>> or Dutch (of German origin, and now reserved reserved
>>> for the inhabitants of the Netherlands).
>>
>> And Pennsylvania!
>
> Darn it - yes, I forget the Pennsylvanian Dutch (from
> Westphalia IIRC?).
The Pennsylvania Dutch were mainly from the Palatinate, and such is their
dialect� with admixture from Hessian, Swabian and Swiss German. Westphalian is
a Low German variety.
Dan
Messages in this topic (18)
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1c. Re: Choosing a word for "German"
Posted by: "R A Brown" r...@carolandray.plus.com
Date: Thu Sep 5, 2013 12:38 pm ((PDT))
On 05/09/2013 16:03, Daniel Prohaska wrote:
> On Sep 5, 2013, at 5:00 PM, R A Brown wrote:
>>
[snip]
>>>
>>> And Pennsylvania!
>>
>> Darn it - yes, I forget the Pennsylvanian Dutch (from
>> Westphalia IIRC?).
>
> The Pennsylvania Dutch were mainly from the Palatinate,
D'oh! Of course it was! What's happening to me memory?
> and such is their dialect� with admixture from Hessian,
> Swabian and Swiss German. Westphalian is a Low German
> variety. Dan
Thanks for the correction. :)
--
Ray
==================================
http://www.carolandray.plus.com
==================================
"language � began with half-musical unanalysed expressions
for individual beings and events."
[Otto Jespersen, Progress in Language, 1895]
Messages in this topic (18)
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1d. Re: Choosing a word for "German"
Posted by: "Daniel Prohaska" dan...@ryan-prohaska.com
Date: Thu Sep 5, 2013 4:41 pm ((PDT))
My pleasure. And t's a really fun dialect of German to listen to. Especially
the moribund non-sectarian varieties are close to the Palatinate dialects. The
Sectarian varieties have gone their own way� quite interesting�
Dan
On Sep 5, 2013, at 9:38 PM, R A Brown wrote:
> On 05/09/2013 16:03, Daniel Prohaska wrote:
>> On Sep 5, 2013, at 5:00 PM, R A Brown wrote:
>>>
> [snip]
>>>>
>>>> And Pennsylvania!
>>>
>>> Darn it - yes, I forget the Pennsylvanian Dutch (from
>>> Westphalia IIRC?).
>>
>> The Pennsylvania Dutch were mainly from the Palatinate,
>
> D'oh! Of course it was! What's happening to me memory?
>
>> and such is their dialect� with admixture from Hessian,
>> Swabian and Swiss German. Westphalian is a Low German
>> variety. Dan
>
> Thanks for the correction. :)
>
> --
> Ray
> ==================================
> http://www.carolandray.plus.com
> ==================================
> "language � began with half-musical unanalysed expressions
> for individual beings and events."
> [Otto Jespersen, Progress in Language, 1895]
Messages in this topic (18)
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1e. Re: Choosing a word for "German"
Posted by: "Padraic Brown" elemti...@yahoo.com
Date: Thu Sep 5, 2013 5:59 pm ((PDT))
> If it is derived from 'herr man", then I guess it got to the
> Romans through Celtic intermediaries. Any sound changes
> would have occurred, possibly in a Chinese whispers effect,
> along the route.
Quite, though I'd suspect something a little older, maybe
something closer to harjamanniz.
>> If it were a borrowing, what might you
>> have expected, something like *xermanus
>> or something like that?
> I would expect *hermanus or, maybe, *chermanus.
I think *ch- is what I was thinking of.
Well, there do appear to be Celtic cognates of *harjaz, so perhaps
Caesar got hold of a Celtic word of some sort.
Naturally, misapplied to sore throated and by now pharyngitic
Germans who could not enunciate a sensible rebuttal to
Caesar's improper appelation!
> IIRC I've come across the Belgae designated variously as
> Germanic, Celtic or mixed (not sure what the very latest thinking is).
Yes, I've come across that as well.
> > And Pennsylvania!
> Darn it - yes, I forget the Pennsylvanian Dutch (from Westphalia IIRC?).
Lancaster, actually. ;)))
Seriously, according to the Font of All Knowledge, Pennsylvania
Germans came mostly from Alsace, Palatinate and Switzerland.
Padraic
> Ray
Messages in this topic (18)
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2a. Re: To diss
Posted by: "Roger Mills" romi...@yahoo.com
Date: Thu Sep 5, 2013 9:26 am ((PDT))
From: Scott Villanueva-Hlad <scotth...@telus.net>
I always hear "disrespect" used as a verb.
"He disrespected me." It feels like sandpaper on my eardrums.
RM Seems to me that I've tended to hear/use "disrespect" as the noun form-- "he
showed disrespect toward his father = he didn't respect his father" whereas "he
disrespected his father" implies (to me) something a little more active, maybe
something verbal (like 'the old man's an #$%& SOB') and I think modern "diss"
also implies something more than simple lack of respect. Maybe ............?
Messages in this topic (15)
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