There are 10 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1a. Teacher-Professor distinction in nat and conlangs
From: Leonardo Castro
1b. Re: Teacher-Professor distinction in nat and conlangs
From: Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets
1c. Re: Teacher-Professor distinction in nat and conlangs
From: Roger Mills
1d. Re: Teacher-Professor distinction in nat and conlangs
From: Padraic Brown
2a. Re: Adposition length (was: Re: Ṫirdonic, my first seriou
From: H. S. Teoh
2b. Re: Adposition length (was: Re: Ṫirdonic, my first seriou
From: C. Brickner
3a. Re: Ṫirdonic, my first serious conlang
From: Anthony Miles
3b. Re: Ṫirdonic, my first serious conlang
From: Jyri Lehtinen
4. Re: Adposition length (was: Re: Ṫirdonic, my first seriou
From: Anthony Miles
5. inflection of metonyms
From: René Uittenbogaard
Messages
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1a. Teacher-Professor distinction in nat and conlangs
Posted by: "Leonardo Castro" [email protected]
Date: Wed Sep 11, 2013 7:34 am ((PDT))
Hi!
Are there different words or concepts for "teacher" and "professor" in
your natlangs and conlangs?
Many French people I have met usually find strange that university
"teachers" are called "professor" in Brazil, even young Master
students working as substitutes ("professor substituto").
I have to explain that I'm kind of their "maître de conférence",
otherwise they can't believe that a 32 years old guy can be a
professor.
Até mais!
Leonardo
Messages in this topic (4)
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1b. Re: Teacher-Professor distinction in nat and conlangs
Posted by: "Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets" [email protected]
Date: Wed Sep 11, 2013 8:06 am ((PDT))
On 11 September 2013 16:33, Leonardo Castro <[email protected]> wrote:
> Hi!
>
> Are there different words or concepts for "teacher" and "professor" in
> your natlangs and conlangs?
>
>
Good question! As I have no idea how the education system works wherever
Moten is spoken, I can't answer it though!
What I can say is that in Moten the verb _ivajagi_ means both "to learn
(sthg)" and "to teach (sthg)" (note that in both cases the object is the
subject learned. The person being taught, when mentioned, must be in the
benefactive). This is reflected in the way the words "teacher" and
"student" are translated in Moten: "teacher" is _vajagnon_, while "student"
is _vajagzif_. Both based on the root of the verb _ivajagi_, but with
different actor noun derivational suffixes (_-non_ is used for certain
professions and many activities of artistic value, while _-sif_ is a more
generic actor noun suffix).
> Many French people I have met usually find strange that university
> "teachers" are called "professor" in Brazil, even young Master
> students working as substitutes ("professor substituto").
>
>
That's because in France, as well as in the Netherlands and I believe in
most (all?) Western European universities (and I believe the US have
similar rules, although I'm not sure about that), "professor" is a title
you must earn through your work (like "doctor" is a title you can only use
if you have a Ph.D.), rather than a job description. In fact, it's
completely unrelated to whether you're even teaching at all, instead being
dependent on the level of your research work and complex university
politics (at least as I understood it when I was in uni). In fact, you can
even get stripped of your professorial title in case of some forms of
misconduct (I actually know someone who was a professor at the lab I was
working in in 2001-2003 --attached to the University of Delft-- who's been
stripped of his title since then. I don't know the exact reasons why he
lost his title of professor, but I can tell you from my experience with him
that it was long due...)
> I have to explain that I'm kind of their "maître de conférence",
> otherwise they can't believe that a 32 years old guy can be a
> professor .
>
>
Yeah, getting a title of professor before the age of 40 is actually
considered quite a feat. Most people who get it only get it after 20 to 30
years of experience in their field of study (which starts only *after* they
got their Ph.D.).
Now I finally understand why a good friend of mine (a Brazilian guy working
at the University of São Paolo, only 3 years older than me) could brag of
having received a title of professor years ago! And me thinking he was such
a genius! ;)
I have a title as well BTW. Won through hard work and getting my
university-level engineering diploma :). Maybe I should use it more often
:P.
--
Ir. Christophe Grandsire-Koevoets.
http://christophoronomicon.blogspot.com/
http://www.christophoronomicon.nl/
Messages in this topic (4)
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1c. Re: Teacher-Professor distinction in nat and conlangs
Posted by: "Roger Mills" [email protected]
Date: Wed Sep 11, 2013 9:09 am ((PDT))
From: Leonardo Castro <[email protected]>
Are there different words or concepts for "teacher" and "professor" in
your natlangs and conlangs?
=======================================
In Kash-- yes. çivar'to teach' > kacivar 'teacher' (usu. in the elem.system.)
kaya 'to know' > kangaya 'an intellectual, scholar', kangaya civar 'professor
(low ranking, univ. level)' tekangaya 'senior/eminent professor'.
Slightly pejorative (wouldn't be used as direct address) kacip 'teacher' (maybe
tekaki 'prof' but not yet officially in the dictionary)
Direct address: kacipi 'teacher', tekangi 'professor'
I suppose status-consciousness inevitably arises in any organized group :-))))
Gwr-- we haven't worked on this, but there will surely be similarities. The Gwr
have a very good education system.
Prevli-- haven't gotten to this. However, there are no prevli-language schools
of any sort, since there are no teaching materials (or any written work at all)
in the language, which remains unwritten due to constant arguments about how to
represent all the morphophonemic changes. Bright Lañ-lañ kids, if they're
selected to go to school at all, have to move to some nearby town where there
are national (kash-language) schools. They have to learn the language first,
though most may already have a smattering from watching TV. If they don't have
any relatives in that town, they will have to arrange to live with someone
else. At larger schools there may be a dormitory for them, supervised by an
elder Lañ-lañ.
Messages in this topic (4)
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1d. Re: Teacher-Professor distinction in nat and conlangs
Posted by: "Padraic Brown" [email protected]
Date: Wed Sep 11, 2013 10:44 am ((PDT))
> Are there different words or concepts for "teacher" and
> "professor" in your natlangs and conlangs?
In (American) English, the distinction is usually between "teacher", who
handles children from Pre-Kindergarten to 12th grade and "professor"
who handles children thereafter. Beyond this somewhat ad hoc distinction,
the WP is very helpful in discovering all the intricacies of academic ranks,
not just in the US, but elsewhere:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_academic_ranks
In the World, education is rarely so systematised as to need or warrant
such a ranking system. Teachers of any rank are generally called some
local equivalent of "teacher" or else "master". In Avantimannish, this is
"ravund", in Talarian, "quras" or "sirtamcaras", the latter of which means
more a religious or spiritual teacher.
Once you get into universities, they do have their byzantine ranking
systems and odd but highly traditional names for those ranks. You might
find in one university a "Lord Scholar and Master of Keys, the Distinguished
Teacher of All Languages" or a "Low Teacher Mighty in the Lore of the
Pentad (*)". Even the more lowly have their distinguishing ranks: the "Oakwood
Lecturer in Modern Thaumological Communications" or the "Soapstone Lecturer
in Practical Alchemy". These academic titles all represent individual
"positions"
within the school and as one moves up (or down, or sideways) along the ranks,
one becomes entitled to carry forward a previous rank. Naturally, as with the
alphabet soup we find among academics and professionals *here*, the longer
one's roll of titles, the more elevated one's general rank. For example, you
might
have a teacher who is the "Right Honorable, the Lord of the Seven Lores (*),
the
Keeper of the Golden Spade of the Imperial Society of Scholars, the Keeper of
the Silver Keys of the Society of Simple Scholars, the Distinguished Reader in
Ancient Runes and Tongues, the Former Reader in All Runes, the Former
Maplewand Lecturer in Aryan Languages, the Former Keeper of the Brass Keys
and Oaken Chest of the Society of Simple Scholars, Ravund Gravio Samgardo
wan Bynganfeld."
The general track is Tutor (a sort of assistant Lecturer), Lecturer (the more
practical
*teachers*), Reader (a more scholarly rank, more oriented towards research and
private experimentation (and thus less accessible to the general rabble of
students)),
Fellow (several ranks of these fellows and are simply very highly educated and
higher
ranking teachers), Philosopher (the highest rank of teacher). There are also
various
non-academic ranks: deans, rectors, secretaries, registrars, and so forth. The
various
ranks are in part tied to which academic degrees one has earned (or is working
on).
A Tutor generally has no academic degree, but may have one or more under-
baccalaureate degrees or certification (such as a Candidacy). The Lecturer must
have
a baccalaureate degree, and in order to become "Accepted" must be working
towards
a Magisterial degree. All the higher ranks must have one or more Doctorate
degrees.
The rank of Philosopher requires one to hold three or more Doctorate degrees,
usually
in different disciplines.
(*) The Pentad, of course, is the five "accepted sciences": Alchemy, Cosmology,
Thaumology, Theology and Philosophy. The Seven Lores is a general reference
to the linguistic sciences: writing systems, grammar, speech and reading,
rhetoric,
poetics, ancient tongues and literature. Some universities may have slightly
different
concentrations than others.
Padraic
> Leonardo
Messages in this topic (4)
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2a. Re: Adposition length (was: Re: Ṫirdonic, my first seriou
Posted by: "H. S. Teoh" [email protected]
Date: Wed Sep 11, 2013 10:44 am ((PDT))
On Tue, Sep 10, 2013 at 07:14:25PM -0400, C. Brickner wrote:
> ----- Original Message -----
> Having said that, though, it's true that not *all* Russian
> prepositions are single consonants; a good number remain CV (e.g., по,
> на, до), VC (из/ис, от), and there's also CVC (под) as well as CCV and
> CCVC (при, пре, пред < перед, the latter of which are actively used in
> both forms, one being just an abbreviation of the other). The
> single-consonant prepositions в, с, к also still have CV reflexes
> under certain phonological conditions, reflecting their origin, for
> example:
>
> T
> __________________________________________
>
> Senjecas has 62 postpositions. I place these into two groups:
> original and derivative (derived from another part of speech). In the
> list below the derivative postpositions are marked with double quotes.
Senjecas has postpositions? Cool, so does Tatari Faran. :) And from the
looks of it, there are a lot of (superficial) similarities too, for
example, a common VCV structure. TF postpositions are predominantly VCV.
(Or should I say, ?VCV, since /?/ is phonemic in TF.)
But, 62 postpositions... that's a lot!! TF only has about 32 or so
(currently).
> Of these 62, one is trisyllabic, seven are monosyllabic, and 53 are
> disyllabic. The other one is the prefix ‘með-'.
>
> All but four end in –a. The polysyllabic ones take the secondary pitch
> on the antepenult and can thus be differentiated from the original
> word: ‘sőma’, liken, compare; ‘sóma’, compared to, than.
In TF, almost all postpositions take stress on the ultima. Many of them
can also function as adverbs. Anyway, here's the TF postposition list:
aba [?a."ba] under, underneath.
aka [?a."ka] out from, out of, away from.
akun [?a."kun] (1) behind, beyond. (2) + temp. expr. - after (a given
period of time).
apa [?a."pa] on, on top of, resting on.
ara [?a."4a] with (a wielded weapon or instrument), using.
asa [?a."sa] among, in the midst of, in the company of.
ata [?a."ta] over, above.
atai [?a."taj] (1) post. like, similar to; (2) adv. similarly,
likewise.
atu [?a."tu] falling off of, taken off from, plucked out from.
atuan [?a."twan] (1) in front of, ahead of. (2) + temp. expr. - before
(a given time).
auti ["?ao.ti] + infin.; until (a certain time).
dusa ["du.sa] along, following the direction of, alongside.
ebe [?E."bE] issuing forth from, oozing out from, emerging from (of
liquids).
eke ["?E.kE] (1) across the surface of, along the surface of;
(2) + temp. expr., for the duration of, over a (time)
period of.
erui [?E."4uj] through the midst of, across the extent of (an area).
i'i [?i."i] according to, in the manner of, just as how.
ibi [?i."bi] together with, accompanied by. Refers to accompaniment
with
ifi [?i."fi] outside, outside of.
iji [?i."?dzi] piercing into.
iki ["?i.ki] with, accompanying. Refers to accompaniment with a
non-topic NP.
imi ["?i.mi] in, inside of, within (an object or person).
ipai ["?i.paj] at, in, within the boundary of (a geographical
location).
ipi [?i."pi] beside, adjacent to, next to.
iri [?i."4i] around, near, in the vicinity of.
ita ["?i.ta] on the surface of, onto the surface of (by etching,
carving, or cutting).
iti [?i.ti] when, during, at (a particular time).
kisi ["ki.si] as a part or component of, (inherently) attached to.
ta'a ["ta.?a] downwards, down the sides of.
uju [?u."dzu] through (an opening).
ura [?u."4a] underneath, below, at the foot of.
uru [?u."4u] entering into.
utu [?u."tu] + infin. for the purpose of, in order to.
Note that TF often draws a distinction between spatial and temporal
postpositions; it does not conflate "before" as in "prior to the time
of" vs. "before" as in "in front of", as English does. However, it does
conflate other such notions, e.g., _eke_ "across the surface of" / "for
the duration of".
To be honest, though, I've never actually sat down to sort out and
categorize these postpositions to see if there are any major gaps. I
suspect there are probably some spatial/temporal relationships that
cannot yet be expressed.
T
--
It only takes one twig to burn down a forest.
Messages in this topic (18)
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2b. Re: Adposition length (was: Re: Ṫirdonic, my first seriou
Posted by: "C. Brickner" [email protected]
Date: Wed Sep 11, 2013 3:37 pm ((PDT))
----- Original Message -----
In TF, almost all postpositions take stress on the ultima. Many of them
can also function as adverbs.
T
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The Senjecan lexicon consists, in large part, of roots to which suffixes are
added to create different parts of speech. The classic example is the root
‘tiirs-’:
1. tíírsa, defy.
2. tíírsas, defiance.
3. tíírsis, adj. defiant.
4. tììrsa, postp. despite
5. tììrsi, conj. although.
6. tììrsu, adv. nevertheless.
Note that postpositions end, for the most part, in –a; conjunctions in –i; and
adverbs (one class of them) in –u.
A number of the 62 postpositions can also be used as adverbs. Here is a small
sampling:
àļa, postp. after, around, behind, beyond, by, on-, -the other side of,
outside, past.
àļu, adv. by, past.
ņa, postp. down (through).
ņu, adv. down(ward).
pèra, postp. before, previous to.
pèri, cnj. before, until, ere.
pèru, adv. at-, -that-, -one-, -time, once, formerly, earlier, before, then [of
the past].
ša, postp. apart from, beside, besides, but (for), except (for), were it not
for, not to-, -speak of, -mention, other than, outside, save, without.
ši, cnj. except (that), but (that), were it not that, unless.
šu, adv. aside, apart, beside.
Charlie
Messages in this topic (18)
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3a. Re: Ṫirdonic, my first serious conlang
Posted by: "Anthony Miles" [email protected]
Date: Wed Sep 11, 2013 2:08 pm ((PDT))
>I'm only suggesting that natural languages *tend to* have irregularities,
>multiple
>declensions, defective nouns (those that only decline in one category, or lack
>certain others). Especially since you've declared some I-E inspiration!
>For example, as I recall, all your ergative case markers are the same
>regardless
>of number, and regardless of whether it is a noun or pronoun. Often, nouns and
>pronouns will decline differently. Also, case forms usually differ between
>numbers.
>Some times, different genders will decline a little differently as well.
>Just some things to think about.
>Padraic
OTOH, Yash has indicated that this is a proto-language. Proto-languages often
do look artificially regular thanks to the disappearance of certain
irregularities from all attested branches. If the original immigrants were
small in number, but derived from an alliance of even smaller groups, one could
get a highly regular language. Or, if the case endings were recently derived
from clitics/particles, there could be a high degree of regularity. I am
interested to see how irregularities develop in the daughter languages!
Messages in this topic (2)
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3b. Re: Ṫirdonic, my first serious conlang
Posted by: "Jyri Lehtinen" [email protected]
Date: Wed Sep 11, 2013 5:10 pm ((PDT))
>
> OTOH, Yash has indicated that this is a proto-language. Proto-languages
> often do look artificially regular thanks to the disappearance of certain
> irregularities from all attested branches. If the original immigrants were
> small in number, but derived from an alliance of even smaller groups, one
> could get a highly regular language. Or, if the case endings were recently
> derived from clitics/particles, there could be a high degree of regularity.
> I am interested to see how irregularities develop in the daughter languages!
>
Or to be nitpicky, it's used as a proto-language. If you are developing a
language with the sole purpose of deriving daughter languages and
explaining irregularities in them, you don't have a need to describe a
realistic amount or irregularity. You might even decide not to develop the
language fully. This is close to my own strategy, as I mostly bother
nailing down such features in a proto-language which have reflexes in the
daughters. I can certainly describe more features in the proto-language as
the work goes on, but there's the possibility of doing that only on the
basis of need.
There are still places in languages, though, which are likely to preserve
irregularities for ages. Following Padraic, pronoun systems are an
excellent example of this. For example, after restructuring the case system
of a language, maybe by agglutinating adpositions on the nouns, the
pronouns are highly likely to still preserve at least parts of the old case
system.
-Jyri
Messages in this topic (2)
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4. Re: Adposition length (was: Re: Ṫirdonic, my first seriou
Posted by: "Anthony Miles" [email protected]
Date: Wed Sep 11, 2013 2:31 pm ((PDT))
----- Original Message -----
>Having said that, though, it's true that not *all* Russian prepositions
>are single consonants; a good number remain CV (e.g., по, на, до), VC
>(из/ис, от), and there's also CVC (под) as well as CCV and CCVC (при,
>пре, пред < перед, the latter of which are actively used in both forms,
>one being just an abbreviation of the other). The single-consonant
>prepositions в, с, к also still have CV reflexes under certain
>phonological conditions, reflecting their origin, for example:
Postpositions in Siye are all two or three syllables, of which the first
portion is the original noun, and the second portion, the ultimate syllable, is
the locative case ending from the triad -kim/-tu/-sum
(locative/allative/ablative). Note that the case endings for nouns in the
locative system vary slightly from the above: -kem/-su/-sum. Monosyllabic
postpositions tend to fuse with the preceding case ending and create new cases
(-ne + to > -neto ABESSIVE, -ne + emtu > -nemtu ILLATIVE). The bisyllabic
postpositions that do not create new cases are consonant-initial (-ne + tekim
'above', -ne tetu 'upwards', -ne tesum 'from above). A few postpositions are
trisyllabic (pempetu, pempesum).
i leneto itupusuna! He went without me!
laye silinemtu itupusuna. The woman entered the house.
tupilo sakipone tekim imilonama. The birds were flying above the lake.
tupilo sakipone tetu imilonana. The birds took off from the lake.
leya leme lupatene pempetu itupusuna. My daughter went beyond the mountain.
lene pempesum limposu elesupummuma. I will allow the fear the fear to pass over
me.
Messages in this topic (1)
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5. inflection of metonyms
Posted by: "René Uittenbogaard" [email protected]
Date: Thu Sep 12, 2013 3:48 am ((PDT))
Just wanted to share something interesting I overheard today. A
conversation between two of my colleagues:
"Ik heb laatst nog een wortelkanaal gehad."
"Mijn tandarts gaat binnenkort kijken naar een oude wortelkanaal."
"I had a root canal [treatment] a while ago."
"My dentist is going to examine an old root canal soon."
"Wortelkanaal" (root canal) is obviously used as a metonym for "root
canal treatment" here.
I found it interesting that "oude" (old) is inflected for the inferred
"behandeling" (treatment, common gender) instead of "wortelkanaal"
(root canal, neuter gender).
"een oud wortelkanaal" would be "an old root canal" (the anatomical part).
"een oude wortelkanaal" is "an old root canal treatment".
Strictly speaking, "root canal treatment" is itself a metonym for the
_result_ of such a treatment here.
René
Messages in this topic (1)
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