Sorry everyone, my keyboard has a mind of its own and sends out emails if i hit some 
accidental combo of keystrokes I have yet to understand.

The last paragraph of prior post should read. (and sorry for the length). The older I 
get the more longwinded I am.

> (Of course, as far as I can tell, for equal protection cases, the Supreme Court has 
> only explicitly applied strict scrutiny  to reverse discrimination cases  - socalled 
> "benign" discrimination  against white plaintiffs (exception Korematsu, but, then  
> the smoke-out didn't work too well there. Of course, the court ignored evidence of 
> racist motives for the internment - among which the Korematus policies' drafter, 
> General de Witt was a notorious racist. in any event, using race as one factor in 
> choosing among thousands of applicants for a few hundred university seats to which 
> no one applicant has any entitlement is obviously less burdensome than placing every 
> member of a particular national origin  within a five state area in a concentration 
> camp.)
>
yb

*********************************************
Professor Yvette M. Barksdale
Associate Professor of Law
The  John Marshall Law School
315 S. Plymouth Ct.
Chicago, IL 60604
(312) 427-2737
(email:)  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
*****************************************************


> ----------
> From:         Barksdale, Yvette
> Reply To:     Discussion list for con law professors
> Sent:         Tuesday, June 24, 2003 7:03 PM
> To:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject:           Re: Puzzles re: Grutter and Korematsu
>
> RE: whether Grutter  is consistent with other Supreme Court uses of the strict 
> scrutiny standard:.
>
> I think it is clear that there has never been a uniform strict scrutiny standard, so 
> I don't think anything is new here. Strict scrutiny for First Amendment issues is 
> different than for equal protection is different than for substantive due process 
> etc.
>
> And, even within equal protection race cases,  the Bakke strict scrutiny  test  with 
> its  "race okay as  a factor"  diverged from the Croson "race ok only used as 
> minimally as conceivably possible to achieve narrowly defined goal."  Indeed, 
> probably the key UMICh litigation issue was whether  the  Bakke   more deferential 
> scrutiny  survived Croson/Adarand. Hopwood said it didn't. Grutter made clear that 
> it did.
>
> As to whether a uniform level of deference should apply whenever the  "strict 
> scrutiny" label is used, I think it can't if you want to make wise and just 
> decisions. Again as O'Connor stated in Grutter "context is everything."
>
> For example, the Croson objective mathematical statistical analysis simply won't 
> work for the more subjective fact specific university admission context, unless you 
> turn university admissions into a strictly by the numbers game, which the Court has 
> consistently rejected.
>
> Croson's government contracting decisions are by their nature  more mathematical  
> (lowest bid has to win to avoid patronage problems). Ditto the interest of 
> "remedying past discrimination" . You can put a number to it, to some extent, at 
> least as narrowly defined by the court. What were the actual depressive effects of 
> City's own past discrimination on the number of minority contracts  with the City of 
> Richmond? What is the minimum race preference that is needed to reverse those 
> depressive effects?  How did one arrive at these numbers?  Were the methods 
> statistically valid? Are there less discriminatory means that would achieve those 
> same numbers?   These are questions capable, at least theoretically, of numerical 
> proof.
>
> In contrast university admissions decisions are notoriously contextual, factor-based 
> decisions. of academic judgment which are hard to review. Is candidate A better than 
> candidate B.? How is a court to know? The court must defer to an academic judgment 
> based upon expertise of the admissions people.   What number of minority students is 
> needed to achieve the educational benefits of diversity? Is this precisely 
> quanitifiable without deference to the judgment of academics?   How does a court 
> determine > the least discriminatory admission method that a school can use to 
> achieve diversity without second guessing  the subjective academic judgment of the 
> school as to how to best carry out its educational mission? What if your lesser 
> discriminatory means have adverse effects on the school's ability to accomplish its 
> other academic goals? How is a court to objectively determine whether the school 
> must sacrifice these academic goals to use lesser discriminatory means?
>
> So, to rigidly apply Croson to the state's academic judgment here, the court must 
> either 1) toss out diversity, 2)  require admissions by the numbers, with either a 
> minority quota (bakke), or an automatic numerical diversity boost (Gratz). This way 
> the court would have numbers to plug into  its "narrowly tailored" statistical 
> analyses. Is the numerical diversity boost larger than necessary to achieve the 
> discrete diversity numerical goal?, or 3) require the state to sacrifice its other 
> academic missions  if doing so would achieve diversity by "race neutral means" . 
> (this is basically the Thomas/Scalia approach - if the school wants to achieve 
> diversity, it should be required to sacrifice selectivity, before it can use race as 
> a factor).
>
> None of these approaches work. 1) Seven justices concluded diversity was a 
> compelling governmental interest,  so jettisoning it doesn't seem to be an option, 
> 2) The Court considers numerical diversity "boosts" even more discriminatory and 
> burdensome for nonminorities than the subjective "race as a factor" analysis, and 3) 
> Requiring a state to sacrifice its central academic mission  or educational judgment 
> to achieve an admittedly compelling governmental goal seems a particularly perverse 
> price to demand. Must the state may achieve its  compelling governmental interest 
> only at the expense of every other academic and institutional value?  Anyway, where 
> does the Court get the expertise to make this call.
>
> Isn't it better  to simply recognize that 1)  the Croson non-deferential narrowly 
> statistical analysis simply doesn't fit the subjective academic decisionmaking 
> present here, and to require them simply distorts the analysis in perverse ways, and 
> 2) this "loosey-goosey" subjective academic decisionmaking, however amorphous, is,  
> at least within reasonable boundaries, the least burdensome means of achieving the 
> compelling governmental interest of diversity, 3) judicial deference to academic 
> judgment is is warranted, as O'connor noted, where you have no evidence of racist, 
> stereotypical or protectionist uses of race, which she posited, the strict scrutiny 
> analysis was designed to smoke out.
>
> yb
>
>
>
>
>
> *********************************************
> Professor Yvette M. Barksdale
> Associate Professor of Law
> The  John Marshall Law School
> 315 S. Plymouth Ct.
> Chicago, IL 60604
> (312) 427-2737
> (email:)  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> *****************************************************
>
>
> > ----------
> > From:         sweetm[SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Reply To:     Discussion list for con law professors
> > Sent:         Tuesday, June 24, 2003 10:17 AM
> > To:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Subject:           Re: Puzzles re: Grutter and Korematsu
> >
> > A fairly recent book on the overview on the Court's use of these standards
> > (arguing they serve as a gatekeeper function) can be found in: Gerstmann,
> > Evan. 1999.   The Constitutional Underclass: Gays, Lesbians and the Failure of
> > Class-Based Equal Protection. Chicago: University of Chicago Press.
> >
> > On what the exact components mean, Croson, for example, had a much more
> > detailed explanation of what counts as "compelling" (statistical test of
> > disparity between available and utilized minority contractors) and "narrowly
> > tailored" (5 part test) than do the Bollinger cases. The circuit courts
> > following Croson battled it out for unanswered questions (e.g., post-enactment>
> > evidence, federal gov't vs. states, gender and disability standards, standing)
> > until the Court ruled again on some of these questions (Northeastern
> > Contractors; Adarand).
> >
> > These Michigan cases are fairly weak on the details, but there are some vague
> > contours there that will be clarified over the next several years at the lower
> > court level.
> >
> >
> > On another note, anyone else struck by (troubled) by the reliance on social
> > science for the proposition that diversity is a positive in education. If a
> > book comes along disputing (skewering) Shape of the River, should Grutter be
> > overruled?
> >
> > Martin J. Sweet
> > Dickinson College
> >
> >
> > >===== Original Message From Discussion list for con law professors
> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> =====>
> > >        I have a minor (I hope) question about strict scrutiny and Grutter.
> > >Justice O'Connor maintains that the Court should defer to the University
> > >regarding whether diversity is essential to the University's educational
> > mission.
> > >She then denies that this implies that the court's scrutiny is any less
> > strict
> > >as a result. I seem to recall similar deference in Korematsu. My
> > understanding
> > >of strict scrutiny is that when the test is applied deference is
> > >inappropriate. My question then is this: Is there a general account (or for
> > that matter
> > >any account at all) of when (how?) deference is permissible when strictly
> > >scrutinizing government action.
> > >
> > >            One quick additional question.  Is there literature specifically
> > >examining the justification of judge-made tests such as "strict scrutiny."
> > >And, as a reporter asked yesterday, how do we know what the definition of
> > >"compelling purpose" or "narrow tailoring" is?   Thanks.
> > >
> > >
> > >Bobby Lipkin
> > >Widener University School of Law
> > >Delaware
> >
> > *******************
> > Martin J. Sweet
> > Assistant Professor
> > Department of Political Science
> > Dickinson College
> > Carlisle, PA 17013
> >
>

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