Agreed! Jeff
On Wed, Mar 13, 2024 at 7:51 PM Winston, Alan P. <wins...@slac.stanford.edu> wrote: > Jeff -- > > Sorry, I didn't mean that it was inherently impossible, but it is Not Good > to have that as your default swing setting with everyone you come to in > line and without any other communication. There may also have been issues > of alternating stepping forward and backward. > > -- Alan > > ________________________________________ > From: Jeff Kaufman <jeff.t.kauf...@gmail.com> > Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2024 4:36 PM > To: Winston, Alan P. > Cc: Katherine Kitching; Jeff Kaufman via Contra Callers > Subject: Re: [Callers] Re: Modified ballroom swing position: seeking more > conversation and info > > "One of the reasons an ex of mine hated contra dancing was that she'd > fully internalized the step-between-the-feet thing in foxtrot, one step, > waltz, etc, and if you try to do that in a contra swing the results are > somewhere between unsatisfactory and actively dangerous." > > I don't swing with feet-between-the-feet with most people, but with some > it's just what feels right, and it can work very well. > > Jeff > > On Wed, Mar 13, 2024 at 7:00 PM Winston, Alan P. via Contra Callers < > contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net<mailto: > contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net>> wrote: > Katherine -- > > I think that the way you were doing the ballroom swing before you modified > it is not how most of the rest of us do it, and that this in itself > produces some of the problems your modification solves. > > I'm sure under the impression that the 'standard' ballroom swing [*] has > the robin's arm on top > > Here's a video (from the East Coast) whcih sure looks to me (from the West > Coast) like how we do it out here. > > https://youtu.be/lQ0R5iHT-l8?si=OYKTgBXg0dLyKQza > > (Of course there has to be some adjustment for height difference, and you > don't want a tall person having to bend way forward and then support a > short person or a short person getting their shoulders stretched by > reaching way up; your modification (robin's hand goes on upper arm rather > than shoulder blade) is sometimes the best solution for height differences > even when the default hold is 'standard' as shown in the video. > > Please try the 'standard' hold with your husband and see if it's any > better for you that what you were using.. And then we can at least all be > talking about the same thing. > > I say "some of the problems" because I think the appropriate solution for > creepy dancers lies in counseling or ejecting them rather than in changing > the hold, because creepy guys gonna creep regardless of the hold. It's > really only a solution for people who are dancing too close for comfort and > don't realize it, and I think the solution for that is for people they are > making uncomfortable to either tell them or tell management and have > management tell them. > > I don't see why in either hold anybody should be grabbing you by the > waist. I also think that there's going to be some irreducible minimum of > innocent / unintended boob and butt grazes, especially among unsure dancers > - the chances of a new dancer in a courtesy turn having their > behind-the-back hand in an unexpected place and the other person, trying to > take that hand (which they can't even see, by the way) is going to end up > putting their hand on hip, waist, or butt.; Do you want to change the > courtesy turn hold to avoid that? Because you don't have to interoperate > with other dances, you could change the courtesy turn hold into a > hands-in-front promenade hold and avoid that risk) > > On a pedantic note, I've been having trouble understanding the hold before > you posted the picture, because "modified ballroom swing" is, as I recall, > what Larry Jennings ("Zesty Contras", "Give and Take") called what we've > been calling the ballroom hold because it's a modification of the position > for ballroom dances like waltz and polka, that modification being that the > inside of the feet being square-on to partner, or slightly offset so that > you intentionally step between your partner's feet; when you're in the > ballroom-dance hold, of course to rotate you alternate stepping forward and > stepping backward. Modified to fully offset, you both step forward the > whole time. > > (One of the reasons an ex of mine hated contra dancing was that she'd > fully internalized the step-between-the-feet thing in foxtrot, one step, > waltz, etc, and if you try to do that in a contra swing the results are > somewhere between unsatisfactory and actively dangerous.) > > Anyway, as a result, the arm that goes to the partner's shoulderblade is > necessarily stretched to some degree across the front of your partner's > body - more stretched if your and your partner's feet are further apart, > less stretched if they're closer together - and it's much easier for that > arm to contact the front of the partner's body somewhere in the boob area > than it is n a square-on ballroom hold. > > As far as I can tell -having only fairly-small man boobs - you can manage > to reduce the impact by adjusting the angle at which partners are facing > and how close your the right side of your right foot is to the right side > of theirs. All the stuff that you'd naturally want to do to avoid > unintended forearm-boob interaction is, counterintuitively, unhelpful so > long as you're keeping the shoulder contact - you want to keep your > distance so you keep your feet further away, and that changes the angle, > reducing the clearance between arm and boob. Or you want to pull the > shoulder near the grazed boob back -recoil from the touch, or whatever - > and that also makes it worse because it changes the angle and brings more > boob surface into contact with the arm. Counterintuitively, adjusting > things so that the pointy-end side is farther apart helps by increasing > clearance on the blunt-end side where the boob contact is happening because > it brings you closer to square-on, reducing the arm-boob a > ttack surface. > > -- Alan (hoping this doesn't completely come across as mansplaining) > > ________________________________________ > From: Katherine Kitching via Contra Callers < > contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net<mailto: > contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net>> > Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2024 2:27 PM > To: Katherine Kitching > Cc: Jeff Kaufman via Contra Callers > Subject: [Callers] Re: Modified ballroom swing position: seeking more > conversation and info > > Sorry everyone - I am clearly not the global authority on this hold, just > yet!! :D > > I just tested this out at home with my (life) partner and realized > something unexpected- > > In the case of me and my partner dancing, it was actually better for both > of us if his arm went below mine even though he is taller- I guess because > he is taller, his upper arm is also longer, so somehow it still made sense > for my arm to go on top. (If anyone thinks they can better explain the > physics/physiology of this, be my guest!) > > Anyhow we got a photo - he is camera-shy and made me crop out his face, > but I think you can view it here - let me know if any issues. > > https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/ebotfe2jksbr3dqbjyiuf/Modified-Ballroom-Swing-elbow-hold.jpg?rlkey=ekblzvpc2tk2hkbtfrh9u96au&dl=0 > > Let's call this hold a "work in progress" from us at Halifax Contra > Dances- seems we are still sorting out some details!! :) > > Kat K > Katherine Kitching<mailto:k...@outdooractive.ca<mailto:k...@outdooractive.ca > >> > Wednesday, March 13, 2024 6:09 PM > whoops whoops!! sorry, correction on that. > > the photo on Jeff's page shows the arms that are closest to the viewer, in > the photo, in a similar position to what my group has been using. > > But I just noticed the dancer's other arms are not hand-in-hand, like my > group does it. > Darn :) > > We would still have Lark's Left hand in Raven's Right hand. > > KK > > > > _______________________________________________ > Contra Callers mailing list -- contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net > <mailto:contracallers@lists.sharedweight.net> > To unsubscribe send an email to contracallers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net > <mailto:contracallers-le...@lists.sharedweight.net> >
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