Thanks, All.

@Maia: thanks for asking me to be precise in my question.  I see I asked
two general questions which, while a mistake, was a happy mistake in that
it led to hearing interesting thoughts.

However, I was hoping to benefit from Harris' experience, or the experience
of others who have encountered the same challenge in a beginner-heavy dance.

My clumsy question was within the context of the original post:

Harris:
"I called Star Trek Phraser at a beginner-heavy college dance last weekend
and it worked quite well! The only thing I noticed was that I had to keep
jumping in to keep the oval on time (dancers kept trying to shift it to A2)
and even still it got pretty messy."

Me:
"Like Harris recently did, we plan to try Star Trek Phaser for our
beginner-heavy college contra next week.  Thanks for writing and posting
it, Luke.
"We often find that our dancers get off-phrase, especially with flowy
dances, like this one.  Is that what causes the challenge with the oval in
this dance?"

I wish I had asked, using Maia's trademark -- "Hive-mind" or Harris -- how
would you foreshorten the challenge Harris witnessed in Star Trek Phaser,
so, next week, our college group can have at least as much fun as Harris's
college group did?

(@Luke, I agree with you: that video of George Marshall giving a beginner
lesson is a pleasure to study.)

Rob

- - - - - - - - - - - -

Robert Matson
Innovation Media Corp.
The Innovation Works, Inc.
Cell: (917) 626-2675



On Wed, Sep 25, 2024 at 9:57 AM Maia McCormick via Contra Callers <
[email protected]> wrote:

> That’s an interesting take—I usually see people swinging for too LONG, and
> specifically see swings running over as one of the main culprits of dance
> timing muddiness. Probably a combination of: swinging is fun, it’s a
> variable number of rotations (ie no clear end point), and it may take
> beginners a sec to get the hand/foot position right. So when dance timing
> is slipping, my go-to is to start more clearly prompting the first move
> after the swing, esp. the partner swing.
>
> For whatever that’s worth!
>
> Cheers,
> Maia (Brooklyn, NY)
>
> --
> Maia McCormick (she/her)
> 917.279.8194
>
>
> On Wed, Sep 25, 2024 at 4:40 PM Neal Schlein <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Robert—
>> I’m thinking there are three things you may be working to counteract:
>>
>> 1. Rushing to the swing/the “easy bits” of the dance.  If the dancers
>> don’t perceive each part of the sequence as equally important or
>> interesting, they will often attempt to shorten the distance to the next
>> part; flowing segments are the natural casualty. This is also trained
>> behavior, learned from exposure to music and tight choreography that
>> rewards or forces “clipped” endings for flowing figures like heys or rushed
>> contra corners. I don’t know how to alter this in a simple, clean way
>> except by repeatedly not programming such choreography.
>>
>> 2. Driving or low-phrased music.  This is regional, and in my opinion the
>> dance tunes played in different places in our country are getting smooshed
>> stylistically, but there are differences.  When I lived in Illinois, for
>> example, the music tended toward a hard driven beat with less intra- and
>> sometimes extra-phrase distinction. I personally felt it was infinitely
>> better for squares because it made contras became mushy, especially on long
>> and flowing parts (which is choreography I tend to appreciate…and then
>> people would rush to the swings). That outcome didn’t seem to bother anyone
>> other than me, though.
>>
>> 3. Dropping out/style of calling.  When we start to drop out, it gives
>> more latitude to the dancers to make their own decisions about timing—which
>> are then dictated by the band (music phrasing), their attitude toward the
>> choreography (rush to the good parts), and their skill (easier to
>> execute=faster potential execution).  You can try to keep calling longer
>> and provide more direction….which might also result in a riot, depending on
>> the dancers. (Here in Colorado I have the reverse: a group that threatens
>> homicide if I ever leave out a single call.)
>>
>> Neal Schlein
>> Librarian, MSLIS
>> Colorado
>>
>> On Wed, Sep 25, 2024 at 2:44 AM Maia McCormick via Contra Callers <
>> [email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> Robert, are you looking for tips beyond the basic “clear, well-phrased,
>>> LONG/well-in-advance calls”? That’s probably the biggest thing, in my
>>> mind—a nice long (3-4 beat) call in advance of the move that often lags, to
>>> give dancers some heads up. (And of course, identifying ahead of time what
>>> parts of the dance that are likely to get smeary.)
>>>
>>> You might be able to preempt some of the timing issues in teaching. Eg
>>> “take JUST FOUR STEPS down the hall, it’s shorter than you think” etc, but
>>> honestly that kind of thing flies right out of people’s heads when the
>>> music starts.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Maia in Brooklyn
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Maia McCormick (she/her)
>>> 917.279.8194
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Sep 25, 2024 at 2:51 AM Luke Donforth via Contra Callers <
>>> [email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Thanks for giving the new dance a spin! I haven't even tried it with
>>>> people yet :-)
>>>>
>>>> Robert, I'm reminded of George Wilson's beginner lesson where he talks
>>>> explicitly about the connection between the music and the dancing, and
>>>> makes the timing explicit:
>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14nxFdcaKWA
>>>>
>>>> Thanks again all,
>>>> Luke
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Sep 24, 2024 at 3:25 PM Robert Matson via Contra Callers <
>>>> [email protected]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Like Harris recently did, we plan to try Star Trek Phaser for our
>>>>> beginner-heavy college contra next week.  Thanks for writing and posting
>>>>> it, Luke.
>>>>>
>>>>> We often find that our dancers get off-phrase, especially with flowy
>>>>> dances, like this one.  Is that what causes the challenge with the oval in
>>>>> this dance?
>>>>>
>>>>> We have the benefit of choosing our music program at the same time as
>>>>> our dance program.  So, our Plan A for flowy dances is to choose a tune 
>>>>> set
>>>>> with clear differentiation between the 8-bar phrases and some sort of
>>>>> punctuation at the start or end of each phrase.  (Maybe a tune set
>>>>> like this one.
>>>>> <https://youtu.be/ADQq_nqqHik?si=UX83w43tUtd8pw6x&t=151>)
>>>>>
>>>>> From the perspective of callers, what would be a few tips that help
>>>>> ensure flowy dances don't get off-phrase or would help in a case like
>>>>> Harris'?
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>> Rob
>>>>>
>>>>> - - - - - - - - - - - -
>>>>>
>>>>> Robert Matson
>>>>> Cell: (917) 626-2675
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Sep 24, 2024 at 12:51 AM Harris Lapiroff via Contra Callers <
>>>>> [email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I called Star Trek Phraser at a beginner-heavy college dance last
>>>>>> weekend and it worked quite well! The only thing I noticed was that I had
>>>>>> to keep jumping in to keep the oval on time (dancers kept trying to shift
>>>>>> it to A2) and even still it got pretty messy. But it's a nice whole-set
>>>>>> moment that I think is worth it. (And for attentive beginners I think it
>>>>>> also reveals something to them about the structure of the dance.) I was
>>>>>> surprised and pleased by how well beginners were able to handle the
>>>>>> star-to-star transition, quick though it is!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks for that one, Luke!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Harris Lapiroff
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dance Caller and Organizer
>>>>>> Boston Intergenerational Dance Advocates Board (Cambridge MA)
>>>>>> Pinewoods Camp, Inc Board (Plymouth MA)
>>>>>> https://chromamine.com/contra/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mon, Sep 9, 2024, at 8:08 PM, Luke Donforth via Contra Callers
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks all.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I continue to turn this one over in my head, and I think I've got a
>>>>>> new one (borrowing heavily from Bob Isaac's *To Turn a Phrase* and
>>>>>> the star-to-star transition of Mick Richardson's *Star Trek*)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Star Trek Phraser
>>>>>> by Luke Donforth
>>>>>> Contra/Becket-CCW
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A1 -----------
>>>>>> (8) Left hand Star
>>>>>> (8) Whole set oval right
>>>>>> A2 -----------
>>>>>> (8) whole set oval Left
>>>>>> (8) Groups of 4 Circle Left 1X
>>>>>> B1 -----------
>>>>>> (8) Partner Do-si-do
>>>>>> (8) Partner swing
>>>>>> B2 -----------
>>>>>> (8) Long lines, forward and back
>>>>>> (8) Left hand Star 1x, walk on to next star
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sun, Sep 8, 2024 at 7:55 PM <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://aptsg.org/Dance/dances.html#Balter
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sun, Sep 8, 2024 at 11:50 AM Luke Donforth via Contra Callers <
>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hello all,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Oftentimes at One Night Gigs, I'll do a mix of circle and longways
>>>>>> set dances. With scatter mixers and specialty dances, I can fill an
>>>>>> evening. But sometimes I get a group that "wants contras" or is looking 
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> grow their familiarity with the dance form.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think Becket dances without lark/robin distinctions and no neighbor
>>>>>> swing are AN easy option into "hands-four" contras. There are other ways
>>>>>> in, but I'm looking for more Beckets that match that description. For a
>>>>>> while I've had "Pluck It" in my box as a friendly option:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Pluck It
>>>>>> Contra/Becket-CW
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A1 -----------
>>>>>> (8) Circle Left
>>>>>> (8) Circle Right
>>>>>> A2 -----------
>>>>>> (8) Left hand Star
>>>>>> (8) Right hand Star
>>>>>> B1 -----------
>>>>>> (8) Partner Do-si-do
>>>>>> (8) Partner swing
>>>>>> B2 -----------
>>>>>> (8) Neighbor Do-si-do across set
>>>>>> (8) Long lines, yearn left
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This is, in my opinion, pretty close to the traditional mixer Scatter
>>>>>> Shot but done as a keeper in Becket. (It does have a DSD across the set,
>>>>>> which in a recent thread was listed as a no-no for some callers. While I
>>>>>> wouldn't use that move at a dance weekend, for One Night gigs I think 
>>>>>> it's
>>>>>> accessible and acceptable). You don't have to teach ballroom swing, and 
>>>>>> if
>>>>>> folks want to elbow swing and swap roles with their partner it doesn't
>>>>>> really impact the dance (this is a small advantage of Becket over 
>>>>>> improper
>>>>>> for this type of dance; different position on the side is less 
>>>>>> disorienting
>>>>>> than different side of the set).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What other Becket dances do folks have that don't rely on roles? No
>>>>>> larks allemande or robins chain, etc.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On the drive home from my gig last night I came up with this one
>>>>>> (which may already exist), written for Naomi who organizes the community
>>>>>> dance I was at:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A Pillar of Weathersfield
>>>>>> Contra/Becket-CW
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A1 -----------
>>>>>> (8) Balance the ring and spin to the right (petronella)
>>>>>> (8) Balance the ring and spin to the right (petronella)
>>>>>> A2 -----------
>>>>>> (16) Partner balance and swing, end facing down the hall
>>>>>> B1 -----------
>>>>>> (8) Down the hall, four in line (turn as couples)
>>>>>> (8) Return and face across
>>>>>> B2 -----------
>>>>>> (8) Long lines, forward and back
>>>>>> (8) Promenade across the Set, turn as a couple and progress
>>>>>> (Go between the ones you danced with, passing by left shoulder, and
>>>>>> the new couple on your right, turn to take hands with new couple)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'd be curious what else folks have that they use for entry-level
>>>>>> contras when you don't have a critical mass of experience for improper
>>>>>> dances with neighbor swings.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks!
>>>>>> Luke Donforth
>>>>>> Burlington, VT
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Contra Callers mailing list -- [email protected]
>>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to
>>>>>> [email protected]
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Luke Donforth
>>>>>> [email protected] <[email protected]>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>> [email protected]
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Contra Callers mailing list -- [email protected]
>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to
>>>>> [email protected]
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Luke Donforth
>>>> [email protected] <[email protected]>
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>> [email protected]
>>>>
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