On Wed, Sep 11, 2002 at 07:03:36PM -0600, Vincent Danen wrote:
> >Yes but I'm a VIP...
>
> You can still vote/request packages as a VIP.
Didn't say I couldn't. Of course them burying the place to suggest a
new app probably didn't help with the voting. Truth is I have
everything I need. I don't feel the need to install the latest version
of KDE on my 8.2/PPC box.
> I agree with you completely. I dislike the idea of skipping every
> second release as much as you do. Unfortunately, at this time,
> MandrakeSoft isn't likely to change this policy (and I have found out
> that it *is* policy). This means there is going to be a 9.1/PPC. I
> think there should have been a 9.0/PPC (and there may yet be one
> unofficially, if people keep up to date with cooker/PPC). I am quite
> excited about a 9.1/PPC, however.
>
> Of course, we can change this policy, just be sheer force of numbers.
> Money is, of course, a big factor to management's decisions, so the
> more purchased PPC CDs and Club subscriptions from PPC users, the more
> likely we can release a PPC distro on the same day as every x86 distro.
A better policy would be to do major releases. 9.0, 10.0, 11.0 etc.
Don't you think it's the wrong time to be asking for people to join the
club and get all excited about Mandrake PPC when *NOTHING* is happening
with the distro? Let's face it 90% of the contrib stuff that happens on
x86 happens as we get close to a release. If you don't believe me go
look at the changelog list.
> This was more due to a miscommunication than anything. Apparently, and
> I spoke with Jacques about this, PPC has always been a "every second
> release" thing... so 9.1/PPC was always in the plans. This means
> that, most likely, a 9.3/PPC or 10.0/PPC will also be available,
> provided the community interest is still there.
Odd that Stew didn't know this for sure back when 9.0 development was
getting started. It's more like a lack of communication than a
misunderstanding of the communication.
> But like all things business, if the money and interest aren't there,
> the product won't be there either. So yes, I do ask for a degree of
> commitment from the community because I firmly believe that with it, we
> can get what we want.
Which is preciously what I meant. PPC is on the chopping block. If I
go through my emails I will see dozens (possibly more) of emails and
postings from Mandrake employees saying "If x doesn't happen we won't be
doing PPC." At first it was CD sales. Then it was club memberships.
Now it's club voting.
None of which in my opinion is representative of the interest in
Mandrake PPC whatsoever. I think a lot of the people who use Mandrake
PPC are Linux users to begin with. They have an X86 box. They either
have old Apple hardware laying around or they want to use some of the
cool looking Apple hardware. Generally they want a machine that can
check email, browse the web, and do some basic things. They aren't as
demanding of their PPC machines as they are of their x86 boxes. (If you
don't believe me try searching for DVD on this list and then comparing
it to the x86 list.)
Saying that there is no interest in PPC because people aren't voting for
RPMS on clubs is just ludicrious. I use PPC almmost every day. But I'm
not voting for RPMS because I've got better things to worry about. PPC
just works for me. And the few things that I did need updated I've put
up myself. In one case even on the club (gphoto2).
I find it odd that Mandrake people keep forgetting that they don't just
use PPC and that neither do probably most of their PPC users. Most of
these people would rather vote for RPMS (with their limited votes) for
x86. Not because they don't care about PPC. But because they are
content wherever they can get these updated packages.
> If 100 people sign up for Mandrake Club and specifically indicate that
> they want more PPC stuff, I assure you MandrakeSoft will take them
> seriously. If that number turns to 200 or 300, I think it realistic to
> think that MandrakeSoft will release a PPC release every x86 release..
> and not a chintzed 2 CD set either, but the full 3 CD deal. It might
> not be boxed or come with manuals, but it'll be there and it'll be
> supported. 300 Club members rooting for PPC would be making
> MandrakeSoft a profit over the cost of creating the PPC distro.
> Subscriptions are (I believe) for 6mos periods, so one subscription is
> essentially purchasing a PPC distro.
You're missing the point. What person is going to spend money to join
the club to support a Mandrake arch that isn't being maintained but
every other release. Compared to other distros that maintain their PPC
releases much better.
This is a lot like trying to put the cart before the horse. You want a
community to exist to support something. But communities don't just
spring up out of nowhere. They have to be built. Mandrake doesn't have
to build the x86 community because Linus and various other distros
(RedHat, Debian, and Slackware) have already built one. All Mandrake
has to do is put out a compelling product and they will come.
But PPC doesn't have that sort of community. Mostly because nobody has
a really good product for PPC. If you build a good PPC product you will
build a community. But not with just one release here and there. Right
now as I pointed out above the PPC people are relegated to just people
that are glad it works at all.
You have to raise expectations. You have to bring it to the point where
people see real benefits of PPC over x86. Right now PPC is behind in
just about every point:
x86 PPC
Quality Distros Yes Not really
Most software works Yes Some does some doesn't
if it's newer it probably
will have unique issues
Hardware support Decent Horrid
So PPC is relegated to the few brave souls who are willing to put up
with the issues.
Mandrake has an opportunity to raise the bar. To try and fix most of
these issues. And maybe even bring PPC to the point where people are
comparing machine specs and hardware coolness rather than "Can I watch
my DVD under Linux with that?" "Will my sound work?" "How many hours
will it take me to get it installed and working right?" "You mean I
can't look at Flash websites?" et al.
Fix these issues and you'll have thriving community. Ask for money and
support without it you'll have a few people who are willing to put up
with these issues.
No maybe Mandrake can't afford (or even it's not possible to fix all
these issues, Flash probably isn't fixable) to do this. But then maybe
they shouldn't do PPC at all. If you're gonna do a half assed job of
it. And Mandrake PPC is half assed compared to x86. No offense to Stew
here. The fact that he has to pull teeth to get what he needs even if
it's simply getting the correct access to the mirrors. Or maintainers
who refuse to fix their packages to work right on PPC. That's what
makes it half assed.
Frankly I think Mandrake could do PPC for a very minimal amount of extra
funds if it *FORCED* it's x86 centric staff to have to deal with the PPC
issues. Make package maintainers resposible for making sure their
packages build and work right (unless of course it's a problem with the
package and not the packaging) on PPC. And automated process (like
Mozilla) could be setup to do the builds and report the results back to
these maintainers. A lot of times it's as simple as applying a small
patch. Or turning off an option that won't work under PPC.
As things stand now. Mandrake does not take advantage of the expertese
of the package maintainers in putting together PPC. Instead Stew has to
figure it out and maybe if they have time he can get a little bit of a
hand.
Not that any of this matters because the truth is that even x86 people
aren't really responsible for their bugs because there is only a half
assed bug management system. See the cooker thread about this recently
for my thoughts on this.
> If MandrakeSoft wanted to keep those 300 subscribers on a permanent
> basis, I'm pretty sure there would release a PPC release every 6mos,
> just like the x86 product.
Reward does not come without risk. You'll note that Stephen King's
online book failed. Why? I'd argue because there was no guarantee that
he'd finish it. If I pay up what guarantee do I have that Mandarke will
keep producing a PPC distro. NONE. ZERO. ZILCH. What guarantee do I
have that you'll get 300 subscribers? Even less.
> I agree. But we have a commitment for 9.1/PPC.. this is coming from
> the CEO directly. There *will* be a 9.1/PPC. So now is the time to
> show your interest. I don't expect 100 or more (or less) PPC
> subscriptions over night. What I would like to see is to reach at
> least 100 by the time 9.1/PPC is ready to roll. If the proof is in the
> pudding, so to speak, and the masses come later, so be it. But for
> those of us here, now, we need to put our money where our mouth is and
> do something about it.
The thing is Vincent that this is the first statement of any commitment
for 9.1 that we've gotten. And you're not the first Mandrake employee
who's said we needed to get club support. Dennis keeps making such
statements on the club volunteers list.
> And I don't want this to sound only as a plea for money. I don't mean
> it to sound that way at all. This is a plea also for participation.
> The more activity MandrakeSoft sees in the PPC arena (obviously money
> makes the biggest difference, but if they look at the cooker-ppc
> archives, they're likely to get depressed), the more they realize there
> is a crowd to cater to. By this I mean discussing PPC, getting
> involved in cooker testing (AFAIK, you can use mol to run Linux, so if
> you prefer to keep a stable 8.2/PPC, you can still test by making an
> image to run cooker in). Getting involved in Club, requesting and
> voting for PPC packages, etc. All of this gets attention.
With PPC hardware making up probably no more than 5% of the market for
computers and Linux people making up probably no more than 5% of that
market. What do they expect? 8.2/PPC was extremly well received in my
opnion. And I'm sure 9.1/PPC will be as well. But these sorts of
things need to be asked for duing an active development process. Not
after 6 months of a cooker distro that hasn't been being maintained.
> I know, and I agree with you. Hopefully in the next 6 months we can
> prove, via cooker/PPC, that there is active development. Hopefully in
> the next 6 months we can prove that 9.1/PPC is a reality. Hopefully in
> the next 6 months we can get some people to demonstrate to MandrakeSoft
> via financial and participatory means that the PPC community wants
> Mandrake/PPC.
Perhaps. But this is not a market that has a lot of room for lots of
distros... it's too small. Which means the little money there is there
will go to the people that have what people want. If people want a KDE3
or Gnome2 or whatever they'll give their money to those distros that
have it now. Not on some vague promise that if they give their money to
Mandrake they'll have it in 6 months and if enough people give money to
Mandrake they'll keep putting out an up to date distro. While the stock
market in recent years did incredibly insane things on vague promises
that's not the environment now. And it probably was never the attitude
of the people you're trying to market too.
The way I see it is that I've bucked up. And I've gotten plenty out of
Mandrake/PPC. But most people are not so forward looking.
> You and I have had the same thoughts, trust me. Until I spoke with
> Jacques, I wasn't sure of the future of PPC either. Now I know we have
> a new version coming out in 6mos. Now whether we have to wait 12mos
> after that for the next one, or 6mos, is really up to the community.
>
> Some people in MandrakeSoft feel we're losing money on PPC, which may
> contribute to the perceived negative attitude from MandrakeSoft
> employees. Some others disagree. If we can make it so that
> MandrakeSoft doesn't perceive a loss of time and money in the PPC port,
> then this negativity will go away.
>
> Obviously I, Stew, and you, alone, can't do this. Nor can just 10
> people do this. The reason why x86 has so much attention from
> MandrakeSoft is because there is an extremely large crowd to cater to.
> While we can't possibly hope to have that large of a crowd, we can
> certainly do better than the 10-15 people who post on cooker-ppc on a
> semi-regular basis.
Maybe what's needed is for Jaques to make public statements (press
releases that /. et al will pick up) announcing the coming of 9.1/PPC
and asking the community to support it. It's probably too early for
that right now. But I really doubt the vast majority of interested
parties read this list. In fact I'd say most people think this list is
for development only (not support) as is the case with x86. Perhaps the
name of the list should be changed or a separate user list for ppc
should be made. Just for support issues.
Basically I think Mandrake is not taking the message to the people.
You're putting the message out in low traffic places in the first place.
Or high traffic places that PPC people may not be paying attention. I
don't know what the answer is. But I do think you're asking the choir
to join the church. And probably asking for a whole lot more faith than
people have to give...
--
Ben Reser <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
http://ben.reser.org
Never take no as an answer from someone who isn't authorized to say yes.
